Lets then take veil, it many games I’ve seen marines take and hold 2 tech points and no matter how hard aliens try they give up. If the game goes on long enough marines will get all of their upgrades but aliens are missing out on a 1/3 of their upgrades and abilities.
With the current patch bile bomb rushes have become far less effective but marines are still able to build enough arcs to crash the server. People say it adds a different game play but the only real thing it does is add a handicap to the aliens.
I cannot for the life of me understand why it would be a good idea to make all maps to where one side must actively deny the other side their end game in order for the game to be balanced. Veil is a shit map for this very reason, because one side storming forward and gaining early map control makes their hold almost unbreakable.
A game where each side can reach end game potential and battle it out with flamethrowers and arcs and exos and Onos/fade/lerk eggs being dropped like candy on both sides sounds much more fun.
I like veil (as long as its not a >16 slot fustercluck), I'd like to see another 4 techpoint map someday. Especially if it has a double res node somewhere.
That was just a schematic I whipped up when I was bored at work. Obviously you wouldn't make a techpoint arc-able from another techpoint, or perfectly straight hallways either. I had been considering having a go at mapping, but I think work/study commitments might rule it out this year.
Another large flaw with that layout there is that the top two tp's have an advantage over the bottom two because they are closer to the double. Its not like its a rule but the mapping guidlines suggest not having vents connecting near everything like you do.
Compared to a 5 tech point map, what advantages to aliens receive on a 4 tech point map?
If aliens can lock down all 3 tech points they can stop marines from getting jp’s and exo’s but that’s it. If they lose even 1 marines can get everything and aliens loose 1/3 of what they can get. So its jp’s, rail run, single mini gun and duel mini gun vs (let’s take a shade hive) shades, silence, camo, umbra, xeno, vortex, stomp, and more egg regen.
I don't understand how anyone envisions 4 tech point maps working. They promote situations where one team is clearly more powerful than the other
2 tech points each team is an even match until level 3 upgrades come out, at which point the marines gain the advantage and inevitably win. That may potentially seem like a long time for the game to be even, but it simplifies the game too much. Teching is then the only objective. Why risk trying to hold three locations when you can hold 2 and win? Similarly, for the aliens taking 3 tech points becomes the only objective. Why bother taking resources when all the lifeforms in the world simply won't be strong enough to win with 2 hives?
This is exactly the way veil currently plays with balanced teams.
5 tech point maps have the brilliant dynamic of forcing marines to hold a third tech point, which does absolutely nothing for them, simply because they cannot allow the aliens to have it. This means that, at any time, marines have the choice to give up that tech point without personally losing anything, but that gives aliens the potential to get three hives.
Because players that want it don’t look at it being a balance issue, they look at it being different and because it’s different its fun. And then they tend to always play marine.
Veil unfortunately is the poster child for the 4 tech point maps since it’s the main one out there. This map has continually been reworked to favor marines such a vent covers to block bile bomb and slanted surfaces to allow marines getting into vents, that normally they shouldn’t. If anyone who had actually played Veil on NS1 would know exactly what I’m talking about.
-The idea behind five us to have an even game where you have Two-techpoint marines vying with 3 hive aliens. This does not work, the marines must scramble and get three total locked down, or it's generally a slow loss.
No, the idea behind five is to have more options to fight over. Maps like veil are incredibly monotonous, as nano/cargo pretty much always decides the game.
Then again, the same could be said for xroads in summit for example.
Also, as marines if you defend you usually lose - especially on pubs. That is, if you're not defending 6 RTs which is decent if you want to perform trællæjj (e.g. the entire team gets exo and then 720MLGOMGHIVESNIPE (with scope) + 9001 MACs). If you're defending 3 RTs, you might as well surrender or change servers because you're wasting your time. 4 RTs is 90% fail, and 5 is usually somewhat of a close game.
Because players that want it don’t look at it being a balance issue, they look at it being different and because it’s different its fun. And then they tend to always play marine.
Veil unfortunately is the poster child for the 4 tech point maps since it’s the main one out there. This map has continually been reworked to favor marines such a vent covers to block bile bomb and slanted surfaces to allow marines getting into vents, that normally they shouldn’t. If anyone who had actually played Veil on NS1 would know exactly what I’m talking about.
Its not a balance issue. Anything can be made to be balanced.
Its a logistics issue.
Lets look at all the possible setups in a map with 4 tech points.
2-2 : Not balanced, in favor of marines.
3-1 : Not balanced, grossly in favor of whomever has 3.
Now the setups like 1-1, or 2-1. In NS2, these setups are essentially impossible. The concept of "no mans land" simply does not exist in NS2. That is to say, there will never be territory which both teams want, but neither has. It just doesn't happen.
Take nanogrid for example. At the start of every veil game, there is a mad rush for nanogrid. Everyone wants it. It has two res nodes, who wouldn't want it? But despite this often equal sprint for the same location, at the 2-3 minute mark, one team has it locked down. That is the nature of NS2. You have one or two big fights, and after that, whomever is left is the victor, and they take the spoils.
So, when every tech point will be occupied, and none of the setups are balanced, how can the game be fun without extreme gameplay overhauls?
I like veil (as long as its not a >16 slot fustercluck), I'd like to see another 4 techpoint map someday. Especially if it has a double res node somewhere.
I'm actually working on something like this. It's an old NS1 custom map I'm remaking called ns_maru. I was thinking something like this.
The original had a double node at marine start as well. It was tricky, but I played some good games on it.
Because players that want it don’t look at it being a balance issue, they look at it being different and because it’s different its fun. And then they tend to always play marine.
You are mostly right. I personally would like to see a few, not many, 4tp maps. I don't care if they are official or not. I like it because it is a different dynamic and because it is "different and fun." For the record I mostly play aliens myself because I find them more fun.
One aspect of this different dynamic is more combat and a faster overall game. It also makes a longer mid game and a shorter late game. 4tp maps, do to one less tp, should generally be smaller than 5tp maps. Smaller maps means more encounters sooner, which means more combat. Until marines are fully upgraded, 2tp vs 2tp I feel is the most balanced. The general idea of a 4tp map would also have less rp's, like 7 or 8. Less resource points slows down the tech tree which by the time late game tech would be coming, your still on mid game tech.
As I see it, the third tp is primarily about ending the game. If the marines get a 3rd and are able to hold it the aliens are clearly losing in either 4 or 5tps. The aliens 3rd hive upgrades were designed to be game ending traits, which sadly don't often help but that is another topic. On a 4tp map, if 3tp's are held by one side the game will be ending pretty soon shortening the late game further.
Comments
With the current patch bile bomb rushes have become far less effective but marines are still able to build enough arcs to crash the server. People say it adds a different game play but the only real thing it does is add a handicap to the aliens.
A game where each side can reach end game potential and battle it out with flamethrowers and arcs and exos and Onos/fade/lerk eggs being dropped like candy on both sides sounds much more fun.
Hint: ARCs.
If aliens can lock down all 3 tech points they can stop marines from getting jp’s and exo’s but that’s it. If they lose even 1 marines can get everything and aliens loose 1/3 of what they can get. So its jp’s, rail run, single mini gun and duel mini gun vs (let’s take a shade hive) shades, silence, camo, umbra, xeno, vortex, stomp, and more egg regen.
2 tech points each team is an even match until level 3 upgrades come out, at which point the marines gain the advantage and inevitably win. That may potentially seem like a long time for the game to be even, but it simplifies the game too much. Teching is then the only objective. Why risk trying to hold three locations when you can hold 2 and win? Similarly, for the aliens taking 3 tech points becomes the only objective. Why bother taking resources when all the lifeforms in the world simply won't be strong enough to win with 2 hives?
This is exactly the way veil currently plays with balanced teams.
5 tech point maps have the brilliant dynamic of forcing marines to hold a third tech point, which does absolutely nothing for them, simply because they cannot allow the aliens to have it. This means that, at any time, marines have the choice to give up that tech point without personally losing anything, but that gives aliens the potential to get three hives.
Veil unfortunately is the poster child for the 4 tech point maps since it’s the main one out there. This map has continually been reworked to favor marines such a vent covers to block bile bomb and slanted surfaces to allow marines getting into vents, that normally they shouldn’t. If anyone who had actually played Veil on NS1 would know exactly what I’m talking about.
No, the idea behind five is to have more options to fight over. Maps like veil are incredibly monotonous, as nano/cargo pretty much always decides the game.
Then again, the same could be said for xroads in summit for example.
Also, as marines if you defend you usually lose - especially on pubs. That is, if you're not defending 6 RTs which is decent if you want to perform trællæjj (e.g. the entire team gets exo and then 720MLGOMGHIVESNIPE (with scope) + 9001 MACs). If you're defending 3 RTs, you might as well surrender or change servers because you're wasting your time. 4 RTs is 90% fail, and 5 is usually somewhat of a close game.
Its not a balance issue. Anything can be made to be balanced.
Its a logistics issue.
Lets look at all the possible setups in a map with 4 tech points.
2-2 : Not balanced, in favor of marines.
3-1 : Not balanced, grossly in favor of whomever has 3.
Now the setups like 1-1, or 2-1. In NS2, these setups are essentially impossible. The concept of "no mans land" simply does not exist in NS2. That is to say, there will never be territory which both teams want, but neither has. It just doesn't happen.
Take nanogrid for example. At the start of every veil game, there is a mad rush for nanogrid. Everyone wants it. It has two res nodes, who wouldn't want it? But despite this often equal sprint for the same location, at the 2-3 minute mark, one team has it locked down. That is the nature of NS2. You have one or two big fights, and after that, whomever is left is the victor, and they take the spoils.
So, when every tech point will be occupied, and none of the setups are balanced, how can the game be fun without extreme gameplay overhauls?
I'm actually working on something like this. It's an old NS1 custom map I'm remaking called ns_maru. I was thinking something like this.
The original had a double node at marine start as well. It was tricky, but I played some good games on it.
http://www.gamefront.com/files/files/13524403/ns_maru_b2.zip If anyone is curious.
You are mostly right. I personally would like to see a few, not many, 4tp maps. I don't care if they are official or not. I like it because it is a different dynamic and because it is "different and fun." For the record I mostly play aliens myself because I find them more fun.
One aspect of this different dynamic is more combat and a faster overall game. It also makes a longer mid game and a shorter late game. 4tp maps, do to one less tp, should generally be smaller than 5tp maps. Smaller maps means more encounters sooner, which means more combat. Until marines are fully upgraded, 2tp vs 2tp I feel is the most balanced. The general idea of a 4tp map would also have less rp's, like 7 or 8. Less resource points slows down the tech tree which by the time late game tech would be coming, your still on mid game tech.
As I see it, the third tp is primarily about ending the game. If the marines get a 3rd and are able to hold it the aliens are clearly losing in either 4 or 5tps. The aliens 3rd hive upgrades were designed to be game ending traits, which sadly don't often help but that is another topic. On a 4tp map, if 3tp's are held by one side the game will be ending pretty soon shortening the late game further.