The lighting should be more uniform, if its blue/green and yellow/orange then keep it at that, don't put red in there or white/gray
Yes lighting is definitely something I need to learn, I left some of the white "greybox lights" in by mistake, I've now changed these. And changed the red skylight
Just a quick question, but how Onos friendly are some of those more confined areas?
You mean the little corner drinks area ?, you can run through it as onos without getting stuck, you go all over the sofa though :P, and the area above it is ok too, but that isn't a thoroughfare so not too many onos will go in their without good reason. Also the views through the window's aren't actually accessible, so no onos worries there.
Thanks a lot for the comments guys, really helps focus things
Hey all, I need some advice.
As all the screenshots in this thread are no longer relevant (Lost the map and had to restart), Shall I remove them all to clean up the thread a little and just post new ones I have. (I still have all the images on disk for my own reference when remapping)
I think the design overall would be stronger if windows and doors shared design features. Some in that room are right angled, others are oval, others kinda square with rounded corners.
There could be less variation in the flooring too.
Finally finished the grey box of the map and have published it! http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=138562031
Please check it out and tell me what you think, Also below I have changed the Flow map from before to a minimap (No real vents have been added yet)
Cant believe I missed a power node in waterfall!, one now added.
Haha, I wanted catwalk to be a bit dangerous... But onos just have no cover while they are trying to get by, so going have to change the approach slightly
I am going to lower observation down slightly, so the catwalk entrance isn't an up hill, and on the otherside to server I'm going to split the door in two with a wall in between thus giving cover behind it and raise the ceiling on the other side.
Im also in the process of very crudely butchering all those long corridors to just provide some sort of cover :P.
I really enjoyed the game, I think it only ended up so long as not a lot of people weren't listening on marine side.
Here's my feedback and ideas its hard to tell with one game and a lot of this is just rough ideas and personal preference:
one problem you do have is that essentially each team has two 'free' tech points if the game starts with one at top and the other at the bottom. Waterfall and lab are very close compared to the bottom two. and given the speed that aliens can move, it's very easy for them to hold both. Spread them out a bit more. Or try place the tp's in the four corners of the map more to get (potentially) more varied games. It's a drastic idea. But four corner tps on a square map with fully random starts would be awesome... maybe
Catwalks and death drops are a source of frustration. You've got to put railings up, and light the paths well, using them sparingly. I died twice dancing with skulks and falling off. Block most the holes up and add railings to the remaining ones.
Landing pad provides extremely fast access to pretty much all the map. I don't think I saw one marine use ventilation. Try making living quarters flow into vent more.
Also vent gives connection to Cave and living quarters I'd simplify vent and remove its connection to cave.
Steam room was troublesome to hold, There's two big chunks of cover, separating line of sight from powernode, rt and tp. Make it a little harder for aliens to play ring-a-ring-of-roses with marines by shrinking the cover or removing one of the chunks.
observation needs downsizing and the catwalk needs positioning into a more logical route, its twisted into the middle of the room and makes it feel a bit odd to navigate. It also adds onto the time for marines to get to living quarters etc
Moreover the vents you suggested will give aliens a lot more mobility, they don't need it tbh. Just add them to break any choke points.
Keep at it man, and as we play more games on it we'll be able to further pinpoint any issues.
Howser, well aliens where not listen too in our side, having a comm that never spent res or even expand to places like living quarters. was a realy anoying game that one.
the corridor between waterfall and crevice needs some vents or cover was realy anoying to attack that place and see the marines just sniping us all the time.
cave right now is pointless, in 2 matches no one use that place once besides cysting.
all the big corridors need atleast some kind of cover.
also the steam room hive got a bug when starting the round that didnt allowed the aliens to spawn because of eggs, dunno if is the map or was a game bug.
I only played the last 30 mins of that 70 min game but what I noticed is that the fighting focused a lot in specific choke points and did not encourage for much of movement because the long corridors kept the aliens seeking for cover.
Bug Fixxes
- Power node added to Waterfall (Thanks @hozz )
- Power node in Living no longer starts built (Thanks @Flaterectomy )
- Eggs should now spawn in Steam Room (Thanks @WhiteDevil )
- AI units should now navigate catwalk, cargo and living quarters correctly
Changes[Some of these changes/cover are quite Butchered!, as they are temp to see gameplay]
- Waterfall -> Steamroom corridors with more cover
- Crevice a touch smaller with more cover
- Cave -> Crevice connection removed (Kind of want Crevice/Cave to act like Server/Cargo so mite redo this whole area at some point)
- Steam room
-- Hive and RT Swapped.
-- Rearranged a bit with the big blocks of cover shrunk and split up.
- Catwalk got some safety rails (But is still a bit dangerous)
- Observation
-- Elevation lowered to make assault from lockers easier
-- Catwalk lowered slightly and new ramp added from CC
-- [Too] large pillars added under catwalk for LOS and skulk climbing.
-- Exit to server change to be 2 doors split with a wall for more cover.
- Server room got some vents under the walkway and a some arched ceiling
- Landing pad ceiling lowered on one side and a touch of cover added
- Bit of cover added between catwalk/lab to stage your onos suicide run
- Almost all corridors got some head room for skulks (Kind of a temp solution before detailing later)
- Some colour added to RR (I think hive is causing errors in console )
My other thoughts
(Kind of want Crevice/Cave to act like Server/Cargo so mite redo this whole area at some point, I may craft it into "1" larger cave area but that is still kinda split by LOS
Heres the overview, Hope we get to play it some so I can get more feedback
And thanks to my GF for patience and cups of coffee
makes sense, should be a big improvement
I think you should try removing Ventilation and U-bend and publish it as an experimental build. If you back it up before making the changes its no love lost and you'll gain some insight.
Cave would still connect to living quarters and cargo to hollow.
makes sense, should be a big improvement
I think you should try removing Ventilation and U-bend and publish it as an experimental build. If you back it up before making the changes its no love lost and you'll gain some insight.
Cave would still connect to living quarters and cargo to hollow.
Sounds pretty interesting!, I can just seal the entrances and remove it from mini-map as a temp test.
Dont you think it will make certain situations really hard.
Imagine trying to go Observation -> Cargo if Server was a fortress you just couldn't go through.
Imagine trying to go Waterfall -> Cave if Crevice was a fortress you just couldn't go through.
Its hard to say without testing it out but its important to experiment. Thats what the server and regular playtests are for. Publish it as a separate map and we can test both to compare what works best.
My logic in suggesting this is; as a small 4 TP map you want the routes fast and focused. It's a small map and you want some good ol' fashioned combat to be at the heart of the gameplay it creates. Adding more routes diffuse the significance of combat zones.
That said just basing this off my assumptions on how good NS2 games play out, I'm not sure this will be the case but it'll be interesting to test nonetheless.
I really made a mess of my map layout thinking in 'what if' scenarios, I think its best to avoid that type of approach and let the testing do the talking.
Personally I really want people to submit experimental builds of their maps for playtests. If they fail or succeed, we'll all learn more about the nature of what works, or what doesn't In NS2 level design.
Oki So I was really hoping to do more work on this for tonight, expecially redoing the Crevice and Cave parts to be more like 1 area and not so far apart.
But unfortuantely time does not allow
So here are two versions on the map thanks to @howser 's idea.
The changes to cave and crevice but still with connections to landing pad from top and bottom http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=138562031
And then the same map without the connections to landing pad from top and bottom http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=140471049
Hey man. Been meaning to give feedback...
We only played the test build (the one with vent and u bend removed) and I might be biased here but going on the three games I've played on it, it was the best yet! I really enjoyed the match even though we lost as marines, so thats a good sign.
Now for the moaning/suggestion bits; Landing pad didn't see a lot of action but i prefered the general flow of the map. You might have to work on how cave and cargo connect to landing pad, expand the paths and lead the players there more Maybe make it a double res node?
Hollow, crevice and cave still need some work as they don't flow very well, some sharp angles, steep height variants and odd geometry.
Also I still don't like death triggers in maps, not sure how everyone else feels about them but they're just a pain, especially when you have to navigate catwalks and dodge lerks at the same time. :P
Most of this is just my opinion though and its hard to go off one game.
Thanks,
Well I'l turn the test one into the main one for now I think, can always reopen those routes later. (So the main NS2_Tarvos has these changes now)
I have raised caves bottom floor a lot and tried to lead players a little more to Landing.
I think when I get to do the catwalk more realistically it wont be as mad a death trap because there will be the twisted broken beams etc. and im thinkin of making a little kind of "crevice with a pillar" type thing near the power node so there is some cover on the side walkway.
As for hollow, I mite need to widen the little bridges, or make the walkways a little bowed so there is some kind of rail, but I want to see if I cant keep the death triggers somehow :P
I replaced some of the place holder geometry with place holder props :P
Update is now on Workshop
Im not working Sunday this week so I hope we get a chance to play it during the play-test maybe ? (Just need to know if there are any MUST NEEDED changes before Sunday evening ofc.
- Hollow: Replaced some place holder geometry with place holder props
- Cave: Floor raised and tried to add a touch of flow to landing pad.
- Crevice: Horrible roof geometry changed to very simple place holder geometry
Yes i had notices that LOS issue, its fairly miner though So i can fix that in some way later.
omg, thank for the catch with the ROCK!!, Must have made it no collision by mistake when doing the eye candy :P
Thanks and that is now fixxed on workshop
Yes i had notices that LOS issue, its fairly miner though So i can fix that in some way later.
omg, thank for the catch with the ROCK!!, Must have made it no collision by mistake when doing the eye candy :P
Thanks and that is now fixxed on workshop
Line of sight issues are not minor. If you don't fix that, then when your in either room, it is going to render both rooms because you don't have that line of sight blocked with occlusion.
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2013
Because I am a nice guy, and I want to see you succeed I did it anyway.
Before (Line of Sight Issue)
As you can see, there is a tiny LOS whole that goes all the way to gravity. As a result, security, x, and gravity all rendered. 2500 draw calls
After (LOS fixed)
1100 draw calls.
As you can see, LOS issues aren't just for gameplay, but they are also for performance. That is why its important not to have them. Sadly, most mappers brush over this.
Thanks for the pictures, I understand what you mean, for map completion it is very important, it will most definitely be something I need to fix going forward.
When I started I did have occlusion boxxes around the rooms, But when i started ahving to edit things they became really annoying!, so i completely removed them to re-add later when things are more solid.
Yeh i layered them, it was more just the door moving, then the occlusion holes needing moving, then id protrude something then the occlusion needed protruding, lol dunno :P. Think i need to revisit it though and occlusion box the rooms.
Comments
Thanks, Yes the ceiling at 0:17 isn't final, just for the height. Any suggestions to remove the grey ? or is it just not light enough
Yes lighting is definitely something I need to learn, I left some of the white "greybox lights" in by mistake, I've now changed these. And changed the red skylight
You mean the little corner drinks area ?, you can run through it as onos without getting stuck, you go all over the sofa though :P, and the area above it is ok too, but that isn't a thoroughfare so not too many onos will go in their without good reason. Also the views through the window's aren't actually accessible, so no onos worries there.
Thanks a lot for the comments guys, really helps focus things
As always all comments appreciated
As all the screenshots in this thread are no longer relevant (Lost the map and had to restart), Shall I remove them all to clean up the thread a little and just post new ones I have. (I still have all the images on disk for my own reference when remapping)
There could be less variation in the flooring too.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=138562031
Please check it out and tell me what you think, Also below I have changed the Flow map from before to a minimap (No real vents have been added yet)
This is the current Minimap
Does waterfall have a power node? If yes, I couldn't find it
Catwalk is funny for Onos and Exos.
Observation is too hard to attack, as we have seen
About the vents you propose: I think vents directly into Hive rooms is very Marine-unfriendly and should be avoided.
Cant believe I missed a power node in waterfall!, one now added.
Haha, I wanted catwalk to be a bit dangerous... But onos just have no cover while they are trying to get by, so going have to change the approach slightly
I am going to lower observation down slightly, so the catwalk entrance isn't an up hill, and on the otherside to server I'm going to split the door in two with a wall in between thus giving cover behind it and raise the ceiling on the other side.
Im also in the process of very crudely butchering all those long corridors to just provide some sort of cover :P.
Any and all feedback/criticism most wanted!
Here's my feedback and ideas its hard to tell with one game and a lot of this is just rough ideas and personal preference:
one problem you do have is that essentially each team has two 'free' tech points if the game starts with one at top and the other at the bottom. Waterfall and lab are very close compared to the bottom two. and given the speed that aliens can move, it's very easy for them to hold both. Spread them out a bit more. Or try place the tp's in the four corners of the map more to get (potentially) more varied games. It's a drastic idea. But four corner tps on a square map with fully random starts would be awesome... maybe
Catwalks and death drops are a source of frustration. You've got to put railings up, and light the paths well, using them sparingly. I died twice dancing with skulks and falling off. Block most the holes up and add railings to the remaining ones.
Landing pad provides extremely fast access to pretty much all the map. I don't think I saw one marine use ventilation. Try making living quarters flow into vent more.
Also vent gives connection to Cave and living quarters I'd simplify vent and remove its connection to cave.
Steam room was troublesome to hold, There's two big chunks of cover, separating line of sight from powernode, rt and tp. Make it a little harder for aliens to play ring-a-ring-of-roses with marines by shrinking the cover or removing one of the chunks.
observation needs downsizing and the catwalk needs positioning into a more logical route, its twisted into the middle of the room and makes it feel a bit odd to navigate. It also adds onto the time for marines to get to living quarters etc
Moreover the vents you suggested will give aliens a lot more mobility, they don't need it tbh. Just add them to break any choke points.
Keep at it man, and as we play more games on it we'll be able to further pinpoint any issues.
the corridor between waterfall and crevice needs some vents or cover was realy anoying to attack that place and see the marines just sniping us all the time.
cave right now is pointless, in 2 matches no one use that place once besides cysting.
all the big corridors need atleast some kind of cover.
also the steam room hive got a bug when starting the round that didnt allowed the aliens to spawn because of eggs, dunno if is the map or was a game bug.
Bug Fixxes
- Power node added to Waterfall (Thanks @hozz )
- Power node in Living no longer starts built (Thanks @Flaterectomy )
- Eggs should now spawn in Steam Room (Thanks @WhiteDevil )
- AI units should now navigate catwalk, cargo and living quarters correctly
Changes [Some of these changes/cover are quite Butchered!, as they are temp to see gameplay]
- Waterfall -> Steamroom corridors with more cover
- Crevice a touch smaller with more cover
- Cave -> Crevice connection removed (Kind of want Crevice/Cave to act like Server/Cargo so mite redo this whole area at some point)
- Steam room
-- Hive and RT Swapped.
-- Rearranged a bit with the big blocks of cover shrunk and split up.
- Catwalk got some safety rails
- Observation
-- Elevation lowered to make assault from lockers easier
-- Catwalk lowered slightly and new ramp added from CC
-- [Too] large pillars added under catwalk for LOS and skulk climbing.
-- Exit to server change to be 2 doors split with a wall for more cover.
- Server room got some vents under the walkway and a some arched ceiling
- Landing pad ceiling lowered on one side and a touch of cover added
- Bit of cover added between catwalk/lab to stage your onos suicide run
- Almost all corridors got some head room for skulks (Kind of a temp solution before detailing later)
- Some colour added to RR (I think hive is causing errors in console
My other thoughts
(Kind of want Crevice/Cave to act like Server/Cargo so mite redo this whole area at some point, I may craft it into "1" larger cave area but that is still kinda split by LOS
Heres the overview, Hope we get to play it some so I can get more feedback
And thanks to my GF for patience and cups of coffee
What you think ?
I think you should try removing Ventilation and U-bend and publish it as an experimental build. If you back it up before making the changes its no love lost and you'll gain some insight.
Cave would still connect to living quarters and cargo to hollow.
Sounds pretty interesting!, I can just seal the entrances and remove it from mini-map as a temp test.
Dont you think it will make certain situations really hard.
Imagine trying to go Observation -> Cargo if Server was a fortress you just couldn't go through.
Imagine trying to go Waterfall -> Cave if Crevice was a fortress you just couldn't go through.
My logic in suggesting this is; as a small 4 TP map you want the routes fast and focused. It's a small map and you want some good ol' fashioned combat to be at the heart of the gameplay it creates. Adding more routes diffuse the significance of combat zones.
That said just basing this off my assumptions on how good NS2 games play out, I'm not sure this will be the case but it'll be interesting to test nonetheless.
I really made a mess of my map layout thinking in 'what if' scenarios, I think its best to avoid that type of approach and let the testing do the talking.
Personally I really want people to submit experimental builds of their maps for playtests. If they fail or succeed, we'll all learn more about the nature of what works, or what doesn't In NS2 level design.
But unfortuantely time does not allow
So here are two versions on the map thanks to @howser 's idea.
The changes to cave and crevice but still with connections to landing pad from top and bottom
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=138562031
And then the same map without the connections to landing pad from top and bottom
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=140471049
We only played the test build (the one with vent and u bend removed) and I might be biased here but going on the three games I've played on it, it was the best yet! I really enjoyed the match even though we lost as marines, so thats a good sign.
Now for the moaning/suggestion bits; Landing pad didn't see a lot of action but i prefered the general flow of the map. You might have to work on how cave and cargo connect to landing pad, expand the paths and lead the players there more Maybe make it a double res node?
Hollow, crevice and cave still need some work as they don't flow very well, some sharp angles, steep height variants and odd geometry.
Also I still don't like death triggers in maps, not sure how everyone else feels about them but they're just a pain, especially when you have to navigate catwalks and dodge lerks at the same time. :P
Most of this is just my opinion though and its hard to go off one game.
Well I'l turn the test one into the main one for now I think, can always reopen those routes later. (So the main NS2_Tarvos has these changes now)
I have raised caves bottom floor a lot and tried to lead players a little more to Landing.
I think when I get to do the catwalk more realistically it wont be as mad a death trap because there will be the twisted broken beams etc. and im thinkin of making a little kind of "crevice with a pillar" type thing near the power node so there is some cover on the side walkway.
As for hollow, I mite need to widen the little bridges, or make the walkways a little bowed so there is some kind of rail, but I want to see if I cant keep the death triggers somehow :P
I replaced some of the place holder geometry with place holder props :P
Update is now on Workshop
Im not working Sunday this week so I hope we get a chance to play it during the play-test maybe ? (Just need to know if there are any MUST NEEDED changes before Sunday evening ofc.
- Hollow: Replaced some place holder geometry with place holder props
- Cave: Floor raised and tried to add a touch of flow to landing pad.
- Crevice: Horrible roof geometry changed to very simple place holder geometry
I wanted to do something so I added some eye candy to the map somewhere but I wont post a screenshot, you will have to go find it
There is a draw distance issue in Steam Room's north entrance. In the image below the hive has just gone out of draw distance:
This rock prop in Landing Pad is not collidable. Excellent spot for a sneaky Phase Gate perhaps?
omg, thank for the catch with the ROCK!!, Must have made it no collision by mistake when doing the eye candy :P
Thanks and that is now fixxed on workshop
Line of sight issues are not minor. If you don't fix that, then when your in either room, it is going to render both rooms because you don't have that line of sight blocked with occlusion.
I can show you a picture if you are confused.
Before (Line of Sight Issue)
As you can see, there is a tiny LOS whole that goes all the way to gravity. As a result, security, x, and gravity all rendered. 2500 draw calls
After (LOS fixed)
1100 draw calls.
As you can see, LOS issues aren't just for gameplay, but they are also for performance. That is why its important not to have them. Sadly, most mappers brush over this.
When I started I did have occlusion boxxes around the rooms, But when i started ahving to edit things they became really annoying!, so i completely removed them to re-add later when things are more solid.