Well, if the bug isnt the only thing causing problems then maybe backwards jumping marines skulks can barely keep up with should be looked at. though overall this leads to a continual trend of skill ceiling lowering that im not a fan of.
Well, it's already been stated that the game is supposed to be balanced for 8v8 and from the games I've played, it seems pretty close. Marines don't get ROFL-stomped anymore and aliens actually have to try. Out of about 20 or so games, it's been pretty even win-loss for me.
Now, 12v12 is completely marine slanted, but that is to be expected as it has always been a marine handicap.
It doesn't take that long for people to figure what is not fun.
Marines losing the majority of their games wasn't very fun either. Any particular reason why one kind of "not fun" is worse than another?
It is not "easy kills" that people are complaining about. It is the fact that reducing/limiting movement is never fun, regardless of how easy or hard stuff is to kill. I've said it once on these forums and I'll say it again. I have played other games where the devs decided to reduce/limit movement mechanism and it has always caused a backlash in the forums, but especially for the competitive players.
Quite frankly, if we were to replace the 'movement' references in your quote above with more generic 'nerf' references, it would be more apt.
Any time the developers 'nerf' something there will be a backlash. We can go through each one and I can pull up the threads of people saying almost the same thing you are now, except in relation to that particular 'nerf'.
Did people really think that the game would remain imbalanced towards aliens forever?
No one thought this, but there are other ways that balance can/should be achieved than by limiting mechanics that people deem fun or give a skill depth to the game.
Which people? Who determines what is 'fun' and what isn't? Me? You? Neither?
For me personally, Aliens just got a whole lot more complicated, and that means it takes greater skill. The skill ceiling has increased on the alien team, not decreased. Guess what? I've played many an alien game and we WON the game. Yes I kid you not.
The difference?
Instead of people just running off and doing their own thing, people actually started to communicate. Frankly, it reminded me of how NS1 used to be, and it feels great.
I think the issue here is that there used to be a skill ceiling on a skulk that made them usable mid and late game. That ceiling is gone once jetpacks come out because of this nerf. You can no longer do the acrobatic jumps that you used to be able to do with gravity + leap to keep you in the face of a marine trying to flee with a jetpack.
So you're bothered that your 0 res lifeform can no longer solo a 30 res jetpack/shottie marine?
Why are you so happy that people who spent a lot of time getting good with the skulk movement got absolutely nullified by this?
Let's be clear here, I'm not 'happy' that people are upset about this. Not one bit. It's disconcerting, yes, but it's also an issue of growing pains. People will adapt. This isn't the first nerf, and it won't be the last.
If they needed a base unit nerf, why not change glancing bites or mess with the damage cone some more. Why would you mess with a movement system that has been around literally since 220 or so?
The devs spent *months* on this change. They didn't just whip it out over the weekend. People have been screaming about balance and the devs said that they take balance VERY seriously which is why they are VERY particular in what they change. If they made this change, there was a good reason.
Well, it's already been stated that the game is supposed to be balanced for 16v16, and from the games I've played, it seems pretty close. Marines don't get ROFL-stomped anymore and aliens actually have to try. Out of about 20 or so games, it's been pretty even win-loss for me.
Now, 24v24 is completely marine slanted, but that is to be expected as it has always been a marine handicap.
Loving the patch so far.
I assume you mean 16 player and 24 player? I can't imagine 24 onos gameplay will work out well or imagine any server surviving that fight.
Yes, it is a bug. Yes, Savant's post is whining/gloating but: You'll also recall the marine warning system was also bugged. What happened? Certain aliens laughed at marines and told them learn to play. There is no alarm bug, you marines just suck.
Anyone that tells people to L2P and it involves a bug that should be fixed is dumb. If I saw other people do it, I would call them out. Just because prior aliens did it does not put Savant or anyone else off the hook.
The devs spent *months* on this change. They didn't just whip it out over the weekend. People have been screaming about balance and the devs said that they take balance VERY seriously which is why they are VERY particular in what they change. If they made this change, there was a good reason.
IronHorse JUST SAID that the thing is due to a bug and Aliens will feel like a brick. Like before, you ignore the people that have a clue and attempt to say how it is intended. ONCE AGAIN,
The bug I dont think explains all the issue with skulk...there is something else off....lowering ground acceleration?
So aliens dont accelerate as fast on the ground....this means directional changes hurt you as an alien does it not?
You often run into things in combat (marines as an example) and as such are slower in getting up to speed again once this happens.
Late in the beta (around the time of skulk surfing) was marine ground accel not all but removed to remove that "slugish feeling" on marine movement?
Whilst these changes might have solved animations...has it now created too much of a gap between marine and alien movement?
You will struggle to take down a JP'er marine even with leap and adren (sure they could be tough before but now its silly), which makes skulks pretty much useless late game (seeing as anything other than LMG pretty much 1 shots you).
Would be interested to see what adding an accel ramp up back to marines would do to help bring the skulk back into late game against JP's.
Anyone that tells people to L2P and it involves a bug that should be fixed is dumb. ... IronHorse JUST SAID that the thing is due to a bug and Aliens will feel like a brick.
You do realize that the 'bug' is not what you think it is right? If you think all of the skulk movement changes are going to be reverted, and everything will be going back to how it was, you're in for an unfortunate surprise. There is one aspect of the change that didn't work as intended, but the bulk of it will remain.
People seem to be confusing this bug with the changes that were made in principle. Those changes will NOT be reverted. The bug will get fixed, but skulk movement has changed. You won't be doing 360s and changing direction in midair for example. The changes in how you come on and off walls won't change either.
Lemme help you out here with some notes from the changelog:
Fixes to the Skulk hitbox and changes to its movement code make them slightly easier targets in certain circumstances.
-Skulk movement adjustments – Movement code now makes them slightly less erratic when dancing in your sights.
-Fixed bug causing Skulk hitbox and worldmodel to be misaligned on some vertical surfaces (Makes the buggers easier to hit).
These changes won't be reverted. The bug that arose from those changes will be fixed, but these changes aren't going away.
You can still change direction in midair, air control wasn't changed as far as I know. I think the momentum preservation bug is the primary thing most people are complaining about. It's a massive difference in game feel for people who knew how to walljump.
You can still change direction in midair, air control wasn't changed as far as I know.
I see what you're saying, I'm not saying you have to travel through midair in a straight line, I can't remember how it was described, but that's the "Movement code now makes them slightly less erratic when dancing in your sights" change I was talking about. I can't remember which thread we were discussing it in, but someone had a good explanation of it that escapes me at the moment.
Lemme help you out here with some notes from the changelog:
Fixes to the Skulk hitbox and changes to its movement code make them slightly easier targets in certain circumstances.
-Skulk movement adjustments – Movement code now makes them slightly less erratic when dancing in your sights.
-Fixed bug causing Skulk hitbox and worldmodel to be misaligned on some vertical surfaces (Makes the buggers easier to hit).
These changes won't be reverted. The bug that arose from those changes will be fixed, but these changes aren't going away.
I noticed those changes and I've read them saying that they had to tone some of the movement down. However, the biggest issue seems to be due to the bug. They feel horrible to play. If it turns out the movement feeling horrible is due to the change and even after the bug is fixed, it should be reverted. The current movement feels bad to use and a two of my friends have already ragequit till it is fixed. While you can say, learn to play, it is a matter of it feeling horrible and should be fixed in the name of gameplay. I understand well about balance but feeling fun and being fun to move around should be sacred, and if the aliens are to be nerfed, it should be in some other manner.
I noticed those changes and I've read them saying that they had to tone some of the movement down. However, the biggest issue seems to be due to the bug.
Let's read what else Ironhorse said about the 'bug'...
But fixes with hitreg (!) and wonky/spastic animations also have a great impact in regards to effectiveness, imo.
For instance, when you are chomping at the feet of a marine, are you landing from a walljump each time? Probably not. And even if you were, the difference in the loss of speed when converted to milliseconds equates to an almost negligible amount compared to average reaction times ~ 200 ms.
So get used to the changes. Yeah they'll fix the walljump deceleration issue, but the impact isn't going to be what people expect it to be.
They feel horrible to play.
To me they feel *different* to play, yes, but I'm adapting to it. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say to 'step up their game' - my point is that until people are used to this change it's going to feel weird. I don't dispute that.
But no matter what UWE did to address the issue, things were going to change. Skulks were going to die more often. Hit registration has been a HUGE issue in the game, and if the devs have actually cracked this then I tip my hat to them.
In the end, all I'm really saying is to give it time and give it a chance.
Mid/late game skulk usability is still viable as it was always based around leap + one of the big upgrades (e.g. cara or celerity). I know UWE wants to keep the whole "non-obsolescence/skulks viable late-game" going, but I largely think its a fools errand. Late-game aliens is about higher lifeforms, such that skulks should be pretty terrible imo.
The early game changes we're certainly a skill floor increase, but something like this was pretty terribly needed. The way the early-game economic battle works is that marines typically need to get 1.5-2x more res flow than aliens to keep up in tech. However, many pub matches ended up with marines unable to push out and content more than a couple of RTs, letting aliens get the res advantage. Reverting it to where aliens have trouble pushing out and marines have freer range of the map works out much better economy-wise.
The leap is horrendous now, was that also changed? Or is that due to the acceleration change? The skulk was _barely_ usable before against jp + sg, and that was only with adren + cara, but with the new leap you can't close enough of the distance most of the time, and it's a fruitless fight. The problem is UWE has to keep the skulk at least somewhat useable mid to late game due to it being a base unit. That is why people are saying it's so unfun now, as once you lose your mid-game life form, you might as well leave the game.
You also bring up a good point which makes me scratch my head. If this was due to the economy imbalance, then why not address that directly by changing the res flow instead of gimping the BASE unit of the game? Seems like a weird way to try to balance something that is a completely separate issue.
Anyways this momentum loss is really the biggest and only issue I really have, and if it's indeed a bug, then great. I can deal with the accel I guess, but not being able to create more momentum by using height / walls is a big downer.
... Wow, Savant, stop flagging people you disagree with as spammers.
Even if I agreed with something you've said, I'd be reluctant to voice as much based solely on the fact that you're conducting yourself like a total jerk.
As far as I can tell, skulks shouldn't be trying to take down SG/JP marines in the late game. If you are skulk late game shouldn't you be off biting RT's and harassing places to bring marines back from pressuring your core group of advanced lifeforms?
The only time you should be trying to kill JP/SG marines is when your team is doing a big push, and even then you are mainly a distraction for the higher lifeforms.
At first I hated the new skulk movement system...I'll quote myself from another thread that's gone dead:
My first scrim under the new patch was after playing maybe 5 minutes as skulk and initially I was frustrated as hell with how it worked.
Then I played more later in Pub and got a better feel for it. I don't think it's 'bad' at the moment. It just feels that some of the hours spent playing as skulk have been wasted since now alot of the jumps and combos I used to be-able to make I can no longer do so. In the scrim I was landing a few meters in-front of marines instead of on their head.
The play now feels 'heavier' where you jump off a high wall and instead of arcing out; you do a normal jump range and then start to fall heavily. I'm also finding that I'm losing speed occasionally but I think half of that is me mistiming things and half is me trying to force the distance to make a jump I used to be-able to make.
Obviously if landing on the ground and losing your speed is a bug then I will beable to use the normal routes I use to get places once again, I may just have to improve my timing.
It doesn't take that long for people to figure what is not fun.
Marines losing the majority of their games wasn't very fun either. Any particular reason why one kind of "not fun" is worse than another?
It is not "easy kills" that people are complaining about. It is the fact that reducing/limiting movement is never fun, regardless of how easy or hard stuff is to kill. I've said it once on these forums and I'll say it again. I have played other games where the devs decided to reduce/limit movement mechanism and it has always caused a backlash in the forums, but especially for the competitive players.
Quite frankly, if we were to replace the 'movement' references in your quote above with more generic 'nerf' references, it would be more apt.
Any time the developers 'nerf' something there will be a backlash. We can go through each one and I can pull up the threads of people saying almost the same thing you are now, except in relation to that particular 'nerf'.
Did people really think that the game would remain imbalanced towards aliens forever?
No one thought this, but there are other ways that balance can/should be achieved than by limiting mechanics that people deem fun or give a skill depth to the game.
Which people? Who determines what is 'fun' and what isn't? Me? You? Neither?
For me personally, Aliens just got a whole lot more complicated, and that means it takes greater skill. The skill ceiling has increased on the alien team, not decreased. Guess what? I've played many an alien game and we WON the game. Yes I kid you not.
The difference?
Instead of people just running off and doing their own thing, people actually started to communicate. Frankly, it reminded me of how NS1 used to be, and it feels great.
I think the issue here is that there used to be a skill ceiling on a skulk that made them usable mid and late game. That ceiling is gone once jetpacks come out because of this nerf. You can no longer do the acrobatic jumps that you used to be able to do with gravity + leap to keep you in the face of a marine trying to flee with a jetpack.
So you're bothered that your 0 res lifeform can no longer solo a 30 res jetpack/shottie marine?
Why are you so happy that people who spent a lot of time getting good with the skulk movement got absolutely nullified by this?
Let's be clear here, I'm not 'happy' that people are upset about this. Not one bit. It's disconcerting, yes, but it's also an issue of growing pains. People will adapt. This isn't the first nerf, and it won't be the last.
If they needed a base unit nerf, why not change glancing bites or mess with the damage cone some more. Why would you mess with a movement system that has been around literally since 220 or so?
The devs spent *months* on this change. They didn't just whip it out over the weekend. People have been screaming about balance and the devs said that they take balance VERY seriously which is why they are VERY particular in what they change. If they made this change, there was a good reason.
Then lmg marines shouldn't be able to kill lerks 1 on 1
at least 99% of the 'skulk is a brick' whine is psychological... it's in your head.
for example "ooohh wtf i cant kill jetpacker anymore" - dude, a decent jetpacker was almost impossible before the update. it's more likely that you're experiencing an influx of 1000 better players; returning from a hiatus to play the new patch.
if you move unpredictably and then direct when his clip is close to empty; you can still destroy marines exactly the same. if you relied on mashing spacebar 24/7 and having glitchy animations, then you'll obviously feel a sting.
I wouldn't say it's REALLY hard to play as a skulk. Yesterday I went to about 20-0 with skulk and ended the round with 49-1 (fade and onos) and I was at a ping disadvantage. People seriously need to stop crying.
To send my point home, here's a quick reference video i made of just a singular animation issue that existed before this patch with wallwalking orientation:
I don't really think skulks have anything to do with why aliens were good, at least not their combat capabilities. Skulks were crap in combat, you can get kills with them if you're good, yes, but that doesn't mean they're a good lifeform. They're weak, not overly difficult to shoot, and don't do a particularly great amount of damage for an alien.
Saying they have to 'rely on ambush tactics' is basically saying 'skulks aren't as good as marines' because if the only way to use them effectively is to rely on your enemy not being able to fight back properly, that means that in terms of base ability, skulks are worse.
If marines ambush skulks, they'd win too. If anyone ambushes anyone, generally, they win. That's why ambushing exists.
I don't see why the basic alien lifeform needs to be so crap in combat that your entire playstyle revolves around finding a way to make it competitive.
I have come to be sick of people talking about fun in games. How do you define fun? What made skulk movement so much more fun before? In the end, you got your fun from killing marines who were not able to shoot you thanks to animation glitches you were exploiting, knowingly or not. The glitch got fixed, now you have to change your playstyle.
Skulks should be as terrible vs jetpack marines as lmg marines vs a fade or an onos. This is what balance is about, asymmetry or not. The basic 0 res units should become less and less effective as the game goes on. Both sides have their upgrades to make them somewhat viable but higher lifeforms and marine tech should ultimatly best them.
The sticky floor makes wall jumps feel off and slows you down at the point where you are easiest to hit. Before leap you have lost your main direct engagement skill factor.
Im reserving judgement on alien difficulty untill that is fixed.
And untill we have less than 50% gorges trying out the new stuff.
Look on the bright side, being unable to maintain some wall jump speed makes celerity a worthwhile upgrade again!
Comments
Now, 12v12 is completely marine slanted, but that is to be expected as it has always been a marine handicap.
Loving the patch so far.
Quite frankly, if we were to replace the 'movement' references in your quote above with more generic 'nerf' references, it would be more apt.
Any time the developers 'nerf' something there will be a backlash. We can go through each one and I can pull up the threads of people saying almost the same thing you are now, except in relation to that particular 'nerf'.
Which people? Who determines what is 'fun' and what isn't? Me? You? Neither?
For me personally, Aliens just got a whole lot more complicated, and that means it takes greater skill. The skill ceiling has increased on the alien team, not decreased. Guess what? I've played many an alien game and we WON the game. Yes I kid you not.
The difference?
Instead of people just running off and doing their own thing, people actually started to communicate. Frankly, it reminded me of how NS1 used to be, and it feels great.
So you're bothered that your 0 res lifeform can no longer solo a 30 res jetpack/shottie marine?
Let's be clear here, I'm not 'happy' that people are upset about this. Not one bit. It's disconcerting, yes, but it's also an issue of growing pains. People will adapt. This isn't the first nerf, and it won't be the last.
The devs spent *months* on this change. They didn't just whip it out over the weekend. People have been screaming about balance and the devs said that they take balance VERY seriously which is why they are VERY particular in what they change. If they made this change, there was a good reason.
I assume you mean 16 player and 24 player? I can't imagine 24 onos gameplay will work out well or imagine any server surviving that fight.
Lol, woops. Yea, it's been a long day...
:-\"
Anyone that tells people to L2P and it involves a bug that should be fixed is dumb. If I saw other people do it, I would call them out. Just because prior aliens did it does not put Savant or anyone else off the hook.
IronHorse JUST SAID that the thing is due to a bug and Aliens will feel like a brick. Like before, you ignore the people that have a clue and attempt to say how it is intended. ONCE AGAIN,
So aliens dont accelerate as fast on the ground....this means directional changes hurt you as an alien does it not?
You often run into things in combat (marines as an example) and as such are slower in getting up to speed again once this happens.
Late in the beta (around the time of skulk surfing) was marine ground accel not all but removed to remove that "slugish feeling" on marine movement?
Whilst these changes might have solved animations...has it now created too much of a gap between marine and alien movement?
You will struggle to take down a JP'er marine even with leap and adren (sure they could be tough before but now its silly), which makes skulks pretty much useless late game (seeing as anything other than LMG pretty much 1 shots you).
Would be interested to see what adding an accel ramp up back to marines would do to help bring the skulk back into late game against JP's.
People seem to be confusing this bug with the changes that were made in principle. Those changes will NOT be reverted. The bug will get fixed, but skulk movement has changed. You won't be doing 360s and changing direction in midair for example. The changes in how you come on and off walls won't change either.
Lemme help you out here with some notes from the changelog: These changes won't be reverted. The bug that arose from those changes will be fixed, but these changes aren't going away.
I noticed those changes and I've read them saying that they had to tone some of the movement down. However, the biggest issue seems to be due to the bug. They feel horrible to play. If it turns out the movement feeling horrible is due to the change and even after the bug is fixed, it should be reverted. The current movement feels bad to use and a two of my friends have already ragequit till it is fixed. While you can say, learn to play, it is a matter of it feeling horrible and should be fixed in the name of gameplay. I understand well about balance but feeling fun and being fun to move around should be sacred, and if the aliens are to be nerfed, it should be in some other manner.
Stated by whom? UWE? Where?
To me they feel *different* to play, yes, but I'm adapting to it. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say to 'step up their game' - my point is that until people are used to this change it's going to feel weird. I don't dispute that.
But no matter what UWE did to address the issue, things were going to change. Skulks were going to die more often. Hit registration has been a HUGE issue in the game, and if the devs have actually cracked this then I tip my hat to them.
In the end, all I'm really saying is to give it time and give it a chance.
The leap is horrendous now, was that also changed? Or is that due to the acceleration change? The skulk was _barely_ usable before against jp + sg, and that was only with adren + cara, but with the new leap you can't close enough of the distance most of the time, and it's a fruitless fight. The problem is UWE has to keep the skulk at least somewhat useable mid to late game due to it being a base unit. That is why people are saying it's so unfun now, as once you lose your mid-game life form, you might as well leave the game.
You also bring up a good point which makes me scratch my head. If this was due to the economy imbalance, then why not address that directly by changing the res flow instead of gimping the BASE unit of the game? Seems like a weird way to try to balance something that is a completely separate issue.
Anyways this momentum loss is really the biggest and only issue I really have, and if it's indeed a bug, then great. I can deal with the accel I guess, but not being able to create more momentum by using height / walls is a big downer.
Even if I agreed with something you've said, I'd be reluctant to voice as much based solely on the fact that you're conducting yourself like a total jerk.
The only time you should be trying to kill JP/SG marines is when your team is doing a big push, and even then you are mainly a distraction for the higher lifeforms.
At first I hated the new skulk movement system...I'll quote myself from another thread that's gone dead:
Obviously if landing on the ground and losing your speed is a bug then I will beable to use the normal routes I use to get places once again, I may just have to improve my timing.
If anyone watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DXN468j8Vz8 you will notice the skulks manage to maintain good speed most of the time.
The bug aside, I think it will help aliens work on their teamwork alot more, something that is basically drilled into Marines every game they play.
Edit: I never flagged you as a spammer
... Except I never flagged you as a spammer?
What's your problem, anyhow? Why the nasty attitude?
Edit: In any case, I'm not going to debate this with you in the thread, if you have a beef with me take it to private messages please.
Then lmg marines shouldn't be able to kill lerks 1 on 1
You flagged me as a spammer and the most I've done to you is disagree.
for example "ooohh wtf i cant kill jetpacker anymore" - dude, a decent jetpacker was almost impossible before the update. it's more likely that you're experiencing an influx of 1000 better players; returning from a hiatus to play the new patch.
if you move unpredictably and then direct when his clip is close to empty; you can still destroy marines exactly the same. if you relied on mashing spacebar 24/7 and having glitchy animations, then you'll obviously feel a sting.
That looks like gimbal lock.
Also, it feels like extractors got 20% less hp.
Saying they have to 'rely on ambush tactics' is basically saying 'skulks aren't as good as marines' because if the only way to use them effectively is to rely on your enemy not being able to fight back properly, that means that in terms of base ability, skulks are worse.
If marines ambush skulks, they'd win too. If anyone ambushes anyone, generally, they win. That's why ambushing exists.
I don't see why the basic alien lifeform needs to be so crap in combat that your entire playstyle revolves around finding a way to make it competitive.
Skulks should be as terrible vs jetpack marines as lmg marines vs a fade or an onos. This is what balance is about, asymmetry or not. The basic 0 res units should become less and less effective as the game goes on. Both sides have their upgrades to make them somewhat viable but higher lifeforms and marine tech should ultimatly best them.
Im reserving judgement on alien difficulty untill that is fixed.
And untill we have less than 50% gorges trying out the new stuff.
Look on the bright side, being unable to maintain some wall jump speed makes celerity a worthwhile upgrade again!