Sewlek's Beta Test Mod

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Comments

  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    give marines massive TRES for killing harvesters

    that is how you encourage people to play the ****ing game
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    Score for points :D Who the heck gives a horse for how many points they earn. You'll want to win the round.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2013
    Points shouldn't even exist in the first place and would require the entire system to be reevaluated and adjusted per each action to make any sort of sense or be adaptable to a RFP system.
    At most, even with obscene values, it would naturally stagger the pres on a team.. (bringing with it the laundry list of downsides) But it would in no way prevent said team from coordinating to intentionally recreate the same exact effective fade ball.

    I don't think anyone wants fade balls to not be possible at all. It does need however to come as such a significant delay (~5-7 minutes+) for everyone on the team to be lined up to do it within a short window. This delay coming from required pres sinks or gains required to keep the alien team in the game up to this point.

    Also need to consider that fade explosions aren't the only major problem. Consequence free brainless skulk packs while comm expands behind and marine side explosions (exosuits, shotguns) are broken too. Interesting, requiring gorges to build and marine equipment costing from a single tres pool fixes all these things. Which game was that again? Seriously just working around the elephant in the room here.

    About RFK, I don't care if it's in the game or not. I also don't know if it makes the game better or not. Haven't played any games with it to find out. I would much rather be testing things that can actually have an effect fixing the big problems. Which this doesn't do in a meaningful enough way. This is a finishing touch you put on top.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I can agree with that.

    Except I think intentional mass tech strategies of any kind should have inherent downsides to it, either through design (lifeform composition / RPS roles) or other severe risks that the other team can "read" (like the time it takes to accomplish [think 5 onos] )

    Or else it will just be chosen as the only viable strat every time.. RFK would not fix this.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Is anyone actually opposed to extending the early game further than it is now, for both teams, and requiring gorges to build??

    If so, why?
    I genuinely cannot see a reason
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    edited August 2013
    @IronHorse, you can't agree with what?

    The thing is, so many things worked out in NS1 which do not in NS2 and RFK was a vital part of that. Bacillus' post essentially said that. All these prophets who say RFK will not work have, according to their forum join date, never played ns1 for real. Good fades were almost invincible in NS1 pubs, smart marines still managed to kill them by trapping them in doorways when they try to retreat. The tension of killing the early fade(s) was the best time i had in NS1.

    The good thing about RKF is, it rewards players and gives them positive feedback. This is important to keep new players playing the game. NS2 had huge sale numbers but most people stopped playing.

    I can only talk for myself here but the combination of pres for both teams and the lack of rfk was the main reason why i didnt recommend the game to my friends after i bought it (and we bought a lot of shit in the last years). I rather play Dota 2, where i sometimes have terrible games with people who dont understand the game, but get rewarded in the end by "meaningless" cosmetic items for which i would never pay money.

    Final edit apart from spelling mistakes: The point is, i would like to recommend NS2 to my friends (and I did before I bought a new PC and played it myself). The thing is, I did recommend NS1 on a 6 player lan and the game was way too complicated for them to understand, although they were amazed by the cool stuff that happend, e.g. LMG rifle shooting at thrice the rate of your typical Counterstrike assaultrifle or digesting people as an onos. NS2 has great graphics but I just miss those wow effects. Oni are way less scary if they cant eat you, the pres/tres system doesnt seem consequental while it cleary diveded the factions in NS1.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Is anyone actually opposed to extending the early game further than it is now, for both teams, and requiring gorges to build??

    If so, why?
    I genuinely cannot see a reason

    Not really no, anything that stops five skulks with cheap/infinite eggs being a thing.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited August 2013
    RFK might spread out the fade timings a bit, but those who can go fade first will just play a bit more defensively until the rest catches up, then it's back to the full blown fade ball tactic. Or they will just wait until everybody has enough, and all go fade at thesame time. There were fadeplosion issues back with the old no-res-while-dead system as well.

    Not saying RFK shouldn't be tried out, but I just don't see how it will solve the fadeplosion issue. IMO, the problem is that there's not enough downsides to having a team full of fades.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    edited August 2013
    So RFK delays the early fade and it is all good, is that what you wanted to say? Seriously, there is so much bs going on in this forum and sevlek's balance mods represent the last hope I have in this game.
    BTW I was always the one skulk who got kills until he got 50 res in NS1 and then went gorge to build the early 2nd hive which in my oppinion benefitted my team way more than me going fade with only one upgrade.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Is anyone actually opposed to extending the early game further than it is now, for both teams, and requiring gorges to build??

    If so, why?
    I genuinely cannot see a reason

    You don't see any drawbacks to requiring Gorges for building? It's incredibly unforgiving. Marines can build with any player on the field, that's far easier than getting a Gorge into position. In pubs it can render the khamm completely powerless until he convinces someone nearby to go Gorge. It also forces the Gorge player to spend the entire game babysitting structures when they would rather be healing players or biling at least some of the time. It worked in NS1 because Gorges were the ones building things. In NS2 it just turns them into servants which is not a good idea.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    rantology wrote: »
    As others have said, a very minor RFP system would probably work the best - just a little "good job for doing something useful" cookie, and not really something to impact game timings/ flow.

    IMO though there are bigger fish to fry, because a proper RFP system would take a significant score system rework, and for something that would really not ultimately solve any gameplay issues I don't think it should be regarded as a priority.

    Agree with you there Rantology. A small "cookie" to say you are doing well that won't make the game much more wonky is ok. It is pretty wonky as it is in pubs, with 1-2 players with high skill really skewing a game. As to balancing the fade ball for comps, I think the end result of whatever mechanism you adopt will not stop the fade ball, as it is the most efficient way to win a game (you can argue how many fades you should have, but the end result is the same, fade ball = very powerful). Note, it doesn't guarantee a win (see RedDog's cast of the ENSL final season 2 Radical vs. onFire game 1 or 2 I think). Unless the mechanics of the game are re-worked (ie. need more than fades to get a win, with more radical suggestion such as lowering structural damage to a point where it is pointless to try fade grind a PG or RT down. I would not like to see this by the way.

    Finally, I only play on pubs, so this is from a pubber's perspective on the game play and fun.

    1. Please balance the game based on Comp. play, as this is the most controlled group you have (the teams are hopefully highly skilled and equally matched). Any mechanic you see play out evenly in Comp. will be tried in a pub with varying results (difference in skill), and this should be how you reward those with more skill - deviations from the "perfect" encounter based on skill and tactics.

    2. The fun factor in pubs (8+ per team), comes from feeling you made a difference to your team, as 1 person's skill and contribution is diluted some what. For this reason, I think it will be and can be more forgiving when less efficient tactics or plays are tried. Though I have to say, its more fun losing as marines as the dreaded turtle can still be fun beating back the Kharaa hordes before being over-run. This is not true for Kharaa, as losing a hive usually starts a snow ball to an alien loss (come backs are possible, but more rare).
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    The funniest part to me is that the only actual issue that rfk plans to address : tech explosion... Can and will, still happen.

    At most, even with obscene values, it would naturally stagger the pres on a team.. (bringing with it the laundry list of downsides) But it would in no way prevent said team from coordinating to intentionally recreate the same exact effective fade ball.

    Fix the problem through a better method, one without so many downsides.

    Eloquently put Ironhorse. I think you got what I want to say (see previous post) is about 1/3 the words.
  • The_Flying_FishThe_Flying_Fish Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23757Members
    hey gorgeous, i know you fear change and all, but i can't see how bertor is spamming
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    edited August 2013
    hey gorgeous, i know you fear change and all, but i can't see how bertor is spamming
    Im not against the change but I would prefer my RFP system, which includes RFK but also don't let the builders / supporters behind (1 building build = 1 kill) and only adds a pres flow of avg. 1 exta ress per min instead of 2-3 (by 1 kill = 1 ress). Ofc i also had to redo the point system a little bit (e.g. no points given by building cysts).

  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Isn't RFP even more pointless than RFK for tackling a tech explosion problem? Then the people that actually do spend pres for their team get it back again? What?
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    edited August 2013
    Jekt wrote: »
    Isn't RFP even more pointless than RFK for tackling a tech explosion problem? Then the people that actually do spend pres for their team get it back again? What?
    First of all tech explosion can't be really stoped by any system other than a limitation of higher life forms (if a team focused on going e.g. fade all at same time). RFP give ppl different amounts of extra ress depending on how they play (as RFK does), by that way good player can get higher lifeforms 2-3 min before normal player, so not all player who safe for a special life form can go for it at the same time hopefully. On the other hand RFP gives Marines a little ress boost at beginning of the game (by building stuff) , so that marines are even able to get shotguns at the right time without a good k/d or less rts.
    Also RFP isn't able to fix unbalanced teams. But if the teams are somekind of even there shouldn't be hugh tech explosion as before. Just look at stats

    Ive explained all of this in special at the mod thread in this forum.

    @Jekt: Just try to test it at my server. Im glad about every opinion
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    bERt0r wrote: »
    All these prophets who say RFK will not work have, according to their forum join date, never played ns1 for real.

    *cough* wrong *cough*

    Ironhorse and Cannon_FodderAUS above have succinctly put what I wanted to say, and I concur completely with rantology's assessment that RFP would require a major rework of the score system and should be at best a low priority.

    RFK doesn't stop aliens fade-balling. The fade-ball is currently too strong, as is the 5-member skulk pack. Given the snowball effect in NS2, the smaller early game victories currently give the winning team a VERY big step up later in the game, if the opponent gets that far. I'm all for trying RFK: I firmly believe in experimentation, but my gut feeling on the outcome is that it won't solve the major balance issues, and at worst actually might exacerbate the slippery slope even further. That is only opinion and prediction, and I've been wrong before, but I stand by my opinion that the angle of the slippery slope is currently too steep. The better team is rewarded two- or even three-fold for each small victory. It's not a simple problem, though, and I don't profess to have the answer.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2013
    Alright so not a single person that I've seen posting here has actually figured out the real reason why RFK would be considered... I'll give you a hint - if your focused on it being to solve lifeform explosions, I'm sorry but that's incorrect... its not intended for that purpose at all. While it may offer slight variations in lifeform timing that's hardly the sole reason for its consideration, and definitely not the most important one.
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    2 rt gorges, 1 saves for hive, 2 fast fades, 1 fast lerk. QQQQQQQ
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @xdragon gorgeous already listed the reasons sewlek gave for testing it.. And gave rebuttals.

    So I take it by you omitting your special - and I'm assuming different - reason, you are waiting for someone to ask. Color me curious!
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @xdragon gorgeous already listed the reasons sewlek gave for testing it.. And gave rebuttals.

    So I take it by you omitting your special - and I'm assuming different - reason, you are waiting for someone to ask. Color me curious!
    Every single one of his points was bogus unfortunately.

  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Zek wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Is anyone actually opposed to extending the early game further than it is now, for both teams, and requiring gorges to build??

    If so, why?
    I genuinely cannot see a reason

    You don't see any drawbacks to requiring Gorges for building? It's incredibly unforgiving. Marines can build with any player on the field, that's far easier than getting a Gorge into position. In pubs it can render the khamm completely powerless until he convinces someone nearby to go Gorge. It also forces the Gorge player to spend the entire game babysitting structures when they would rather be healing players or biling at least some of the time. It worked in NS1 because Gorges were the ones building things. In NS2 it just turns them into servants which is not a good idea.
    You mean the commander has to actually command, and players have to assist in expansion?? Oh noes! ;-)

    But really.. Gorges have been building for years in ns2 throughout alpha and beta and even after launch, including up to a month ago, just fine.. so i dont get this assumption and exaggeration?
    Now if we witnessed gorges never building hives or harvesters for their commanders in the time ns2 has existed I might share your concern.

    Btw, building the occasional harvester won't (and currently doesn't) take up your time as a gorge, preventing you from being Mr. Combat gorge?? That's really all that's being proposed, just fyi.

    Besides, a better implementation wouldn't hurt either, like a "gorge needed" reminder, and a commander placed icon that gorges only can be way pointed to for building etc.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Actually the reasoning is in that document, not surprisingly people fixated on the fact that it said it would create more dynamic lifeform timings and failed to notice the largest and final point, or atleast notice a portion of the logic behind it. But perhaps people enjoy waiting 13 minutes after their first fade before they can afford another.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    What my statement with the joindate issue was focused on was the definite, knowitall way of condemning RFK ruining the game without backing it up with any proof, arguments or even personal experiences.

    I do not think RFP is a bad idea, I think it is a good idea which is worth to be tested. I also think one should not be so narrowminded about giving res for everything that gives points. Im not sure if gorges get points for building hydras for example but I think it would be logical to not gain res for using your res.

    What I would absolutly want to have is gaining some res for welding/healing other players and structures although you would have to give more points for welding players compared to structures. This would encourage new players to weld each other, stick together, and therefore learn the game.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Is anyone actually opposed to extending the early game further than it is now, for both teams, and requiring gorges to build??

    If so, why?
    I genuinely cannot see a reason

    You don't see any drawbacks to requiring Gorges for building? It's incredibly unforgiving. Marines can build with any player on the field, that's far easier than getting a Gorge into position. In pubs it can render the khamm completely powerless until he convinces someone nearby to go Gorge. It also forces the Gorge player to spend the entire game babysitting structures when they would rather be healing players or biling at least some of the time. It worked in NS1 because Gorges were the ones building things. In NS2 it just turns them into servants which is not a good idea.
    You mean the commander has to actually command, and players have to assist in expansion?? Oh noes! ;-)

    But really.. Gorges have been building for years in ns2 throughout alpha and beta and even after launch, including up to a month ago, just fine.. so i dont get this assumption and exaggeration?
    Now if we witnessed gorges never building hives or harvesters for their commanders in the time ns2 has existed I might share your concern.

    Btw, building the occasional harvester won't (and currently doesn't) take up your time as a gorge, preventing you from being Mr. Combat gorge?? That's really all that's being proposed, just fyi.

    Besides, a better implementation wouldn't hurt either, like a "gorge needed" reminder, and a commander placed icon that gorges only can be way pointed to for building etc.

    What you propose(which I assume is the same as today but without Drifters?) has never been done before in NS2. Buildings have always grown at a reasonable pace on their own. Now they don't without a Gorge or Drifter, which is already closer to Gorge dependency than ever before.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Well dragon, since you are insisting on being vague, one can only guess you are referring to egg drops after that last hint.
    So on that note :

    "Removing high tier tech drops (fade, onos, exo, JP) and adding RFK will do 2 things: It makes your p.res investment more important, more a strategic choice (not easily replaceable anymore). And it will promote commander support abilities more, since more support means higher chance of winning engagements, which means more personal resources for the field players and also protects the field players p.res investment."

    Rfk only effects the struck out portion.

    Which, honestly still occurs even without RFK, considering winning engagements typically leads to securing res for the team - and you.
    The only change RFK would bring to the table in this instance is the same exact thing it brings to any instance : increased pres for the top killers.

    Removing dropped eggs makes your pres investment more important - not RFK. That just makes it less important??
    Commander support abilities provide more for the comm to dump res on, also assisting in winning engagements - not RFK. (didn't you tell me the other day that commanders already contribute too much to engagements anyways?)

    Honestly, that last part of the document seemed to be grasping at straws, attempting to justify RFK as assisting in addressing fade factories - but all it did was highlight how unnecessary and non impactful it really is, while pointing to the things that would actually address it??
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    the RFK thing is a distraction
    even if implemented, the impact will be extremely minor the way it's coded

    it diverts everyone's attention from the real issues (broken game, no balance)
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I can not imagine rfk being a good thing. Yes we had it in ns1 and it did only push for earlier lifeforms.



    Hmm.. im gona be cruel and suggest a massive thing here which will screw balance at the beginning.
    How about a Biodiversity function?

    Currently you have 5 lifeforms. Lets call that a diversity of 5 if you have atleast 1 of each in the team excluding the comm inside the hive.
    If you have 3 fades, 1 lerk and a gorge then you have a diversity of 3 as you only have 3 different types of lifeforms.
    Give a teamwide bonus for having better diversity, balance around & profit?

    Now the hard part would be to deside which bonus(es) diversity would give. To good & the team suffers to much earlygame with just skulks. To bad, and they will all just fade explode.
    Best would be to make it so that either going for a fade explosion OR a better bonus would both be considered a valid choice in both comp / pug.

    Discuss. :)
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'm still waiting for someone to give a real argument about a negative effect gameplay wise for RFK. Saying that experience players gain more from it is a useless argument because you can say that about everything.


    Skilled players gain much more from using adv lifeforms, their pres investment allows them to deliver much more damage than an inexperience player would be able to.

    Skilled players gain much more from using shotguns, they have the ability to wreck numbers of inexperience skulks in the same fight while inexperience players usually won't be able to.

    Skilled players gain more from medpacks since they have higher chance of surviving than inexperience players.

    Skilled players gain more when dropping hydras because they hydras placement is usually much more effective than from an inexperience player.


    I could go on and on about this but experience players will always gain more from these mechanics simply because they are better at the game. Saying that rfk should not be implemented because some players are better at getting kills is like saying a marathon runner should not get a trophy for winning a race. I mean he already got the best time right? Would be unfair if the other runners don't get a equal trophies.


    Now its time to get out of that little bubble and think about the gameplay on the whole, what does rfk give the game, what did it give ns1? One of the biggest thing It gave was bigger chance of comeback. In ns2 when you are behind your presflow is so slow that you have to be able to keep winning the fps part for 6-20 mintutes simply to be able to get an extra weapon/adv lifeform on the field. Since you have less rts you have no way of getting the extra pres you need to hold more resource towers.
    So what would rfk do in these scenarios? If the losing team managed to hold their ground and win some engagements they would get the extra pres they need to make a comeback. Instead of waiting 13-20 min simply to get another chance of going fade they might be able to lower it to 9-10 min with really good play.
    Another thing RFK would do is make each engagement more meaningful and make suicide rushes actually how a downside.

    These are just two simple and short examples, you can dig into it in every part of the game. Now instead of focusing on that there are players out there that might be more skilled than you lets focus on actual gameplay effects. Even though the game has some strategy elements to it we have to remember that the game is still a tactical shooter. The mission of both teams is to maximize their combat potential to overpower the opposing team and clear the objective. True team play is when all players take their part and do their best to accomplice that goal.

    Now I'm going to end this about RFP. I think A RFP system could work well if made correctly, but it would require a lot of work to do it effective. I can promise you though that the experience players will still be the ones that get the biggest benefits from it, they will learn how to maximize the gain and do it as much as possible. RFP would probably have to give more points to the players in combat. As hard as it might to be belive combat ability is one of the most important skill you have in the game.

    The reward for playing gorge or setting up resources is that you help the team to win the game. Someone has to get the frags, someone has to do the other stuff. The other things that players do are still just as important even though rfk would be added.
    Now I'm all ears for other arguments when connected with gameplay facts, so please if you know of some big issues connected with RFK please share with solid arguments how it affects the gameplay. Would love to hear it.
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