Lol I'm sorry but if you think lerk is useless paper currently, your really horribly wrong. Play the role of support, the lerk is still extremely strong in this role.
Its called an opinion and is highly subjective. Not everyone is at your tier of skill, dragon..
Not to mention referring it to paper speaks nothing about it's ability to engage with support weapons???
Playing pubs i more often than not - as in the large majority of the time - witness lerks mowed down, even sometimes with just early LMGs and even without players "ground lerking".
Its just too unforgiving and too high of a skill floor/entry.
It becomes a binary and frustrating experience to pay 25 pres to lose your lifeform in the first room you fly into and attempt to escape from.
I can reaffirm my opinion on this everytime i play marines and can successfully mow down lerks with ease... i'm beginning to just let them escape these days intentionally, knowing i would otherwise be providing a terrible experience for that player.
Also, the pre launch lerk changes created such a role confusion for players, ontop of the high skill floor.
For example, you say "play the role of support" , when the player's primary weapon is a highly risky melee bite, and it's secondary is inaccurate spikes that literally highlight where marines should concentrate their fire. @-)
Combine this with the nerfs of 250.. and you get paper lerk for anyone who isn't top tier.
For added credibility on the matter, since i am just a lowly pubber :
With the nerfed speed, fixed hitboxes and removed glancing bites (lerk is the only class where this is a nerf), aggressive bite lerk simply isn't viable against marines with good aim... In b251, even previously high-impact aggro lerks like me are forced into a pure support role..
I would not mind the lerk got small boost in speed and more importantly more rof to give him more power in melee. However any hp buff or spike buff would make it way to strong. The current lerk is in a really good spot, the issue for new players not being picked out on it is actually a mechanical issue. Also making the lerk stronger in melee would not help new players.
In ns1 the lerk was one of the most favored beginner lifeform, it allowed you to be semi-effective combat support while being able to play save at the same time. You could poke out, gas and go back in hiding. The only players that really could pick you out usually very skilled marines but you can't really prevent that from happening. The beauty of that concept is that it gave the beginners a strong harashing weapon that they could use without learning advance movement and timings.
In ns2 the lerk design is to keep the lerk in the firing range while supporting. Obviously this means that the lerk is much less save to play and increases the base skill ceiling on the lerk by a huge amount. So by mechanical design its only normal that beginners that start trying out the lerk will die since they don't have the base movement and timings figured out.
To make the lerk more beginner friendly you need to start changing up some of its mechanics. With the current design its in a really good spot and should only receive minor adjustments.
Unless you also nerf marines, aliens that only pop 2 fades at 10 minutes have lost. There are teams currently that can hold off the fadeball, its not unstoppable. If you weaken early game gorges so that pushing alien RTs is possible again, so that the fades can be delayed through good play, that alone would be huge for marine teams. Good marine teams are generally able (or at least want to) get 2/1 or 2/2 with shotguns and 2 established phase gates by the time fades come out. At that point you turtle with sentries and macs, and either start killing fades and then push, or hold out till jetpacks and push.
My point is that the imbalance is in both mechanics and game design, mechanics are whats making the balance tip so hard at lower play levels, ease of fade play vs unforgivingness of marines. Design like the massing of fades also makes for imbalance, but I don't think people realize that aliens need much of that strength to win. The other larger part of that problem simply comes from the teamplay - marines require much stronger teamplay and also have much less room for mistakes (basically 0).
aliens should be able to put more pressure on marine res (forcing meds, killing stuff) if they aren't skulks saving for many fades
aliens should be able to have more harvesters if they aren't skulks saving for fades
the game just needs to tweak the numbers to make that happen
if marines are delaying fades a lot, it shouldn't be cheap
anyways that only helps the top 1% of players. it does nothing for the rest where aliens can easily dominate a balanced game before fades, even if they are delayed a lot
the only way you're ever going to see balance for medium skill games is by making early marine team way more effective vs early skulk
brightskins are the best way to achieve that without needing to do strange things to balance high-level play
As I said, playing bite lerk is not nearly as viable, I cannot disagree with that statement. But playing supportive lerk, using spikes and playing intelligently (its really not that hard, just takes some adjustment) is still very effective, and is really quite safe.
Lerk is all about choices - if you choose to play aggressive and fly into areas you have no knowledge of, or attempt to fly at marines, your running a big risk. If you choose to play safe, spike from a distance and help your teammates, you can still do very well with a lerk. The main problem with lerk is how that role is communicated to the player - because currently its not.
I was thinking about it, and I'm starting to feel like reducing starting HP, and buffing up BioMass HP scaling would be a great solution to fades (and onos for that matter)
Early fades would still be powerfull, but they would die very easy, and then the HP scaling would take them into late game and keep them viable.
Same thing for Onoses, at level 9 or 10 biomass, Onos would become what it was before their HP nerf.
Biomass is meant to help aliens scale after all, I feel it could be used to help with fade balls being unstopable before marines have the tech to deal with them.
Having 1-2 stronger (in whatever aspects) lerks and 2-3 fades isn't at all too weak against w2a1 shotgun marines, and a much more interesting position for games than the current 4-5 fades against w1a1 marines. Having w2a1 with 2 established phase gates when the fades hit the field, as you xDragon say, is better than average, the more common situation is either to have a phase gate or two with upgrades only coming, or w1a1-ish with phase gates being secured.
In ns2 the lerk design is to keep the lerk in the firing range while supporting. Obviously this means that the lerk is much less save to play and increases the base skill ceiling on the lerk by a huge amount. So by mechanical design its only normal that beginners that start trying out the lerk will die since they don't have the base movement and timings figured out.
To make the lerk more beginner friendly you need to start changing up some of its mechanics. With the current design its in a really good spot and should only receive minor adjustments.
Its like your last sentence is saying the opposite of what the rest of your post is saying??
How do you change the mechanics, type of weapons, rof, speed with only "minor adjustments"?
To me the lerk lost a lot of it's viability when he lost spores at the start of the round. (and yes it should be medium ranged spores)
Lerk bite is just non viable for top tier, and sends the wrong (often suicidal) message to new or less skilled players. Much rather have mid ranged spores and spikes to start with. Would severely assist in the viability and ease of learning the class Imo.
I think most teams still go for a2 before w2, as it makes your marines 4 swipes... And having 2/1 upgrades and the PGs before fades is not above average, i would say having 2/2 and those gates is above however. Most teams I see are running with 4 fades, skipping the lerk generally indicates that you don't really need it early game, which again is a problem no one here seems to even acknowledge, but usually at similar skill levels you want a single lerk. Umbra is insanely strong currently so there is no reason not to have at least a single lerk, nor can I think of a sane way you would buff lerk where it would matter once shotguns come out. 4 Fades is very strong, I think if you reduce it to 3 via forcing a player to gorge early game, then aliens will be able to still do well, but you will be handing marines an advantage. If you force it down too 2 fades, aliens will lose. They will not be able to stop marines from pushing out with shotguns, and not be able to crack marine defensive positions that have turrets and macs. You compare aliens team composition to a set point in the marines tech tree - but you fail to realize that if they have a single early gorge (that spends alot of his pres), 2 lerks and 2 fades, there is no one left that can go higher lifeform for at least 10 more minutes.... what are the aliens supposed to do during that time? Hold on and hope the marines dont keep teching up?
Currently the lerk is NOT the support class it should be. Maybe giving it gas first instead of useless spikes would actually make it viable in helping skulks take down marines. Also what about resorting fade cost back to 50? or changing starting pres for aliens start with 18 (5 for gorge and then some for hydras). I would leave lerk alone till fade is fixed though.
Yeah very true. 250 removed all the support classes for both marines and aliens.
Its like your last sentence is saying the opposite of what the rest of your post is saying??
How do you change the mechanics, type of weapons, rof, speed with only "minor adjustments"?
To me the lerk lost a lot of it's viability when he lost spores at the start of the round. (and yes it should be medium ranged spores)
Lerk bite is just non viable for top tier, and sends the wrong (often suicidal) message to new or less skilled players. Much rather have mid ranged spores and spikes to start with. Would severely assist in the viability and ease of learning the class Imo.
My point was is the last sentence that with the current abilities the lerk is using its a pretty good spot and only needs minor adjustments, if you wanted to make it more beginner friendly you would have to do some rework.
Even though lerk is not using bite, his spikes are insanely powerful. You can't underestimate just how much damage spikes deal. Its not only the dps, the lerk forces marines out of position, distracts their aim, lowers their armor and forces a lot of medpacks from the commander. Adding to that the power of umbra and you got yourself one hell of a support lifeform, if anything it might actually need a nerf in its range supporting.
The beautiful thing about NS1 that prevented fadesplosions wasn't that you didn't want to have 5 fades... It was that you...
I COMPLETELY agree with you. While making people not want a class at a certain time of game is good for fine-tuning, simply not allowing them gives more of a hard wall.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@grissi if it's in such a good spot why is it Skipped so often by competitive players and pubbers alike?
To me that signals the opposite. (especially so considering how many people don't want to nerf fades)
And if bite isn't being used, i dont think increasing the Rof will change that, given the reasons why its not being used.
Time for a rework, I'd say. *shrug *
I think most teams still go for a2 before w2, as it makes your marines 4 swipes... And having 2/1 upgrades and the PGs before fades is not above average, i would say having 2/2 and those gates is above however. Most teams I see are running with 4 fades, skipping the lerk generally indicates that you don't really need it early game, which again is a problem no one here seems to even acknowledge, but usually at similar skill levels you want a single lerk. Umbra is insanely strong currently so there is no reason not to have at least a single lerk, nor can I think of a sane way you would buff lerk where it would matter once shotguns come out. 4 Fades is very strong, I think if you reduce it to 3 via forcing a player to gorge early game, then aliens will be able to still do well, but you will be handing marines an advantage. If you force it down too 2 fades, aliens will lose. They will not be able to stop marines from pushing out with shotguns, and not be able to crack marine defensive positions that have turrets and macs. You compare aliens team composition to a set point in the marines tech tree - but you fail to realize that if they have a single early gorge (that spends alot of his pres), 2 lerks and 2 fades, there is no one left that can go higher lifeform for at least 10 more minutes.... what are the aliens supposed to do during that time? Hold on and hope the marines dont keep teching up?
Yes, well w2a1 or w1a2 doesn't have anything to do with the subject. I, too, go for w1a2 nowadays, but the old a1 -> w1 -> w2 -> w3 from NS1 and early NS2 is still inscribed in my brain as the standard tech path.
w1a2 shotguns with 2 established phase gates at the moment of the fadesplosion is still above average in games that I experience. That would require a constant flow of 4-5 RTs, assuming the fades hit the field somewhere around 7-8 minutes, which is more than is usually the case. We might be talking about a different tier of games though, I have no idea what kind of games you play. The tech I would like marines to be at when the fades hit the field would be exactly what you're describing; w1a2-ish marines with shotguns and 1-2 phase gates with good map control. This just usually isn't the case in games I play, and even if it is, the fade ball is still usually too strong.
And 2 fades isn't what I'm forcing it at, it's closer to 3 fades. 2 fades would mean that the alien team has either gone for 1 lerk and 2 gorges, or 2 lerks and 1 gorge, which would mean that they have probably been losing the early game and should justifiably be punished for it by being weaker in the mid-game. This was in a much better position pre B250, when fades still cost 50pres, as the time window that the marines had before the fades hit the field was slightly bigger, which meant that at least one lerk was necessary, and getting a second one was the plan B if things started going south. At the moment, rolling with 5 skulks is entirely possible, with 4 skulks and 1 lerk being the highest diversity any team goes for, as even if the marine team realises that they are winning, they simply won't have time to end the game before the fades hit the field.
The changes I'm suggesting would, in my opinion, change the basic lifeform composition in a normal game from
-3 skulks (ready to fade at the 7-8 minute mark)
-1 lerk (optional even if you're losing the early game) and
-1 gorge (optional, and even when chosen will fade 1-2 minutes after the skulks)
to
-3 skulks (ready to fade at the 9-10th minute mark)
-1 lerk (crucial even if you're winning the early game) and
-1 gorge (crucial for building, and because of bigger res sinks and the need for a gorge even in mid-game, wouldn't be a part of the fadeball)
and because of the gorge and the lerk being non-optional would also prevent
@grissi if it's in such a good spot why is it Skipped so often by competitive players and pubbers alike?
To me that signals the opposite. (especially so considering how many people don't want to nerf fades)
And if bite isn't being used, i dont think increasing the Rof will change that, given the reasons why its not being used.
Time for a rework, I'd say. *shrug *
Did you read my post, I basically said by the current design its in a pretty good spot. If you want it to be more beginner friendly you kinda have to rework some of its abilities. The mechanics build around the lerk is what makes it hard for beginners, the lerk state in the game currently is pretty good if you are thinking gaming and balance vise. You can't really do much better with the abilities that the lerk is currently using, most of the changes you can do are very minor and don't really make it easier to play but makes it more rewarding. The best way to make it more beginner friendly is to allow it to be useful in combat without having to take to many risks. Changing numbers won't really solve that issue, you would have change the mechanics.
I actually always think about both sides on the table but at the same time we are limited to work with the current mechanics that have already been made. I could suggest huge reworks but I know that is waste of time and probably won't happen. In most cases where the game is not accessable to newer players is because its made that way by design.
The reason why increased rof would help the lerk alot is because it will allow it to burst damage the marine. There are plenty of times the lerk can get the jump on marine but if he gets medpacks the lerk won't be able to kill him. Because the lerk lacks the burst damage its not worth the risk to go melee. Simplest way to fix that is to equalize the risk vs reward, basically increase the burst damage = increase rof.
You still dont address the second part of the problem, if you remove a fade from the ball, what answer do the aliens have when the marines turtle into sentries and macs and jetpacks? They slowly loose?
Also, you openly admit marines dont do that well during the early game, but completely ignore that as part of the solution to the fade ball. Marines that are able to pressure alien RTs like in pre B250 will also accomplish the same changes you want to change via timings - delaying the fades. As for real timings - fades currently in B250 (assuming close skill, high level play) appear around the 9 minute mark. Holding 3 rts (average for aliens) yields you about 40 res at 8-9 minutes (7 minutes of 3 RTs up). If you let aliens have 4+ rts, your loosing the early game. Also, weakening the early game gorge strength will help make the lerk more required, both for scouting, delaying and harassing. It really surprises me how people look at the current gameplay and blame 100% of the imbalance issues on the fade... If you made 3 simple changes currently to the gorge you would most like see massive balance changes just from that (disable babblers/hydras/clogs).
Address the balance issues in the early game (gorge....), tweak the fade movement mechanics slightly, and remove comm gorge. I still stand by the fact that those changes alone would help marines massively.
I still don't understand the issue you're creating. Removing one fade in the case the aliens are playing well and two fades in the case the aliens are being outplayed doesn't directly mean that the aliens slowly lose mid-to-late game. You're admitting that the fade ball (4 fades) is a problem, but in the case of only 3 fades the aliens would, in your opinion, not stand a chance? I disagree. I think that 3 fades with supplementary units against w1a2 shotgun marines with map control is how the mid-game should be. And I would see that as balanced.
I'm trying to make the game interesting for both sides during the whole course of the game, from early to mid to late, away from the current marine situation of either win early or slowly lose during the mid-game, with the extremely boring chance of desperate turtling for half an hour to slowly push out. Delaying the fades without addressing the ball itself would only change the windows, but keep the game binary.
There are other problems in the game, but the fadesplosion is the number one reason for both balance issues and stale gameplay.
Yes 3 fades vs 1/2 shotgun marines is fine... But marines will not always be at that tech level.. and aliens have little to advance with in terms of lifeforms... There's no chance for an onos with those paths, the next player that could even fade would be the gorge, and he would be looking at probably 10+ more minutes... That's why I say aliens will loose... They would need to play almost flawlessly from that point on, and even then they still would be fighting a massive uphill battle.
@grissi if it's in such a good spot why is it Skipped so often by competitive players and pubbers alike?
To me that signals the opposite. (especially so considering how many people don't want to nerf fades)
And if bite isn't being used, i dont think increasing the Rof will change that, given the reasons why its not being used.
Time for a rework, I'd say. *shrug *
Did you read my post, I basically said by the current design its in a pretty good spot. If you want it to be more beginner friendly you kinda have to rework some of its abilities.
I read it, I just don't think you're getting my point :
By saying its in a good spot, you are suggesting that it currently doesn't need to be more beginner friendly...
Hmmm This discussion about lerks is a bit of a red herring. They make an amazing support class, and can REALLY complement the 3 fade 1 gorge push on a location, and of course help out skulks early game as well. I just came out of a comp game that was easily my best ever lerking, and this was in the summer cup with nerfed umbra (also only on 2 hives too). I completely agree with xDragon's assessment of the current state of the lerk.
Marines have a window early in the game, and with the summer cup changes to skulk with 60 hp and a whole load of other nerfs, the marines actually have a very reasonable shot at attacking well in the early game.
Extending that window, even in vanilla without the skulk/babbler/umbra nerfs, would be a good first step to try to balance the win rate a bit: during those periods when marines have a slight advantage, they can delay alien tech and promote their own. Lowering starting pres for both teams would amount to a slight marine buff in two ways: 1) marine upgrade path is more dependent on tres than pres, lowering pres delays aliens more than marines and 2) longer early game allowing marines to make the most of their early upgrades advantage.
Someone's already suggested it, but it really is worth trying as a first start. Just decrease starting pres for both teams down to 10 or 15 and see what effect it has on balance on pubs and comp games...
Yes 3 fades vs 1/2 shotgun marines is fine... But marines will not always be at that tech level.. and aliens have little to advance with in terms of lifeforms... There's no chance for an onos with those paths, the next player that could even fade would be the gorge, and he would be looking at probably 10+ more minutes... That's why I say aliens will loose... They would need to play almost flawlessly from that point on, and even then they still would be fighting a massive uphill battle.
By that logic, the current system would mean that every dead fade would mean one less fade for 15-ish minutes. This isn't the case, however, firstly due to massive res income due to map control due to fades (though this is lessened in my utopia), and secondly because of tres drops.
With your logic, every competitive game where one fade dies (and the alien team is thus brought to the level I'm suggesting) within a minute of the fade ball would be an inevitable loss for the aliens. This isn't the case.
I read it, I just don't think you're getting my point :
By saying its in a good spot, you are suggesting that it currently doesn't need to be more beginner friendly...
To which I strongly disagree with, I guess.
I don't pick the designs, I learned that its usually pointless effort. Trust me I really tried to give that kind of feedback on that road during the beta and onwards. Now I just comment on the mechanics that have already been picked. If the design for lerk is changed (and not into something that hurts the gameplay to much) I would start working with that instead and ignore the current design. In the end that's what we are working on here right?
I could start writing up a lot of ideas how to make the lerk more beginner friendly and keep it competitive viable but that would probably require more than just changes to the lerk, everything would have to be adjusted to the new lerk mechanics that would be selected. So its not a simple as just saying: The lerk just needs this.
Tres drops most likely wont be a thing for 2 hive aliens going forward, so that is something to keep in mind (hence the discussions about RFK 10 pages back). Fades don't grant massive map control against an even marine team, actually unless the marines hold their 2 PGs and keep aliens on ~3 RTs, they will loose. Thats why I dont even consider the runaway games with aliens having 6 RTs after fades a valid topic - those games are over.
You still dont address the second part of the problem, if you remove a fade from the ball, what answer do the aliens have when the marines turtle into sentries and macs and jetpacks? They slowly loose?
Also, you openly admit marines dont do that well during the early game, but completely ignore that as part of the solution to the fade ball. Marines that are able to pressure alien RTs like in pre B250 will also accomplish the same changes you want to change via timings - delaying the fades. As for real timings - fades currently in B250 (assuming close skill, high level play) appear around the 9 minute mark. Holding 3 rts (average for aliens) yields you about 40 res at 8-9 minutes (7 minutes of 3 RTs up). If you let aliens have 4+ rts, your loosing the early game. Also, weakening the early game gorge strength will help make the lerk more required, both for scouting, delaying and harassing. It really surprises me how people look at the current gameplay and blame 100% of the imbalance issues on the fade... If you made 3 simple changes currently to the gorge you would most like see massive balance changes just from that (disable babblers/hydras/clogs).
Address the balance issues in the early game (gorge....), tweak the fade movement mechanics slightly, and remove comm gorge. I still stand by the fact that those changes alone would help marines massively.
If we could get down to two fades for a significant period of time we can buff their health and return actual structure damage.
The problems are at the very beginning. skulks vs marine. the new skulk is so strong now that marines have really big problems to get even a second tech point. i saw it in lot of public games. since 250 skulk vs marine is not a fair combat anymore.
The problems are at the very beginning. skulks vs marine. the new skulk is so strong now that marines have really big problems to get even a second tech point. i saw it in lot of public games. since 250 skulk vs marine is not a fair combat anymore.
The early game is the best and most balanced part of the game as of now.
The problems are at the very beginning. skulks vs marine. the new skulk is so strong now that marines have really big problems to get even a second tech point. i saw it in lot of public games. since 250 skulk vs marine is not a fair combat anymore.
The early game is the best and most balanced part of the game as of now.
Where do you see this? I see quite more games losing in early game in 250/251 than 249. The new skulk messed the early game up. There are a lot more games where marines can control only 1 or 2 extractor in the first 5 or 6 minutes. in 249 you had more chances against the slower normal skulks. but now if you play against a good alien team they kill you under 1 sec. a mark and two bites with super fast jump and its over
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Not to mention referring it to paper speaks nothing about it's ability to engage with support weapons???
Playing pubs i more often than not - as in the large majority of the time - witness lerks mowed down, even sometimes with just early LMGs and even without players "ground lerking".
Its just too unforgiving and too high of a skill floor/entry.
It becomes a binary and frustrating experience to pay 25 pres to lose your lifeform in the first room you fly into and attempt to escape from.
I can reaffirm my opinion on this everytime i play marines and can successfully mow down lerks with ease... i'm beginning to just let them escape these days intentionally, knowing i would otherwise be providing a terrible experience for that player.
Also, the pre launch lerk changes created such a role confusion for players, ontop of the high skill floor.
For example, you say "play the role of support" , when the player's primary weapon is a highly risky melee bite, and it's secondary is inaccurate spikes that literally highlight where marines should concentrate their fire. @-)
Combine this with the nerfs of 250.. and you get paper lerk for anyone who isn't top tier.
For added credibility on the matter, since i am just a lowly pubber :
In ns1 the lerk was one of the most favored beginner lifeform, it allowed you to be semi-effective combat support while being able to play save at the same time. You could poke out, gas and go back in hiding. The only players that really could pick you out usually very skilled marines but you can't really prevent that from happening. The beauty of that concept is that it gave the beginners a strong harashing weapon that they could use without learning advance movement and timings.
In ns2 the lerk design is to keep the lerk in the firing range while supporting. Obviously this means that the lerk is much less save to play and increases the base skill ceiling on the lerk by a huge amount. So by mechanical design its only normal that beginners that start trying out the lerk will die since they don't have the base movement and timings figured out.
To make the lerk more beginner friendly you need to start changing up some of its mechanics. With the current design its in a really good spot and should only receive minor adjustments.
aliens should be able to put more pressure on marine res (forcing meds, killing stuff) if they aren't skulks saving for many fades
aliens should be able to have more harvesters if they aren't skulks saving for fades
the game just needs to tweak the numbers to make that happen
if marines are delaying fades a lot, it shouldn't be cheap
anyways that only helps the top 1% of players. it does nothing for the rest where aliens can easily dominate a balanced game before fades, even if they are delayed a lot
the only way you're ever going to see balance for medium skill games is by making early marine team way more effective vs early skulk
brightskins are the best way to achieve that without needing to do strange things to balance high-level play
Lerk is all about choices - if you choose to play aggressive and fly into areas you have no knowledge of, or attempt to fly at marines, your running a big risk. If you choose to play safe, spike from a distance and help your teammates, you can still do very well with a lerk. The main problem with lerk is how that role is communicated to the player - because currently its not.
Early fades would still be powerfull, but they would die very easy, and then the HP scaling would take them into late game and keep them viable.
Same thing for Onoses, at level 9 or 10 biomass, Onos would become what it was before their HP nerf.
Biomass is meant to help aliens scale after all, I feel it could be used to help with fade balls being unstopable before marines have the tech to deal with them.
How do you change the mechanics, type of weapons, rof, speed with only "minor adjustments"?
To me the lerk lost a lot of it's viability when he lost spores at the start of the round. (and yes it should be medium ranged spores)
Lerk bite is just non viable for top tier, and sends the wrong (often suicidal) message to new or less skilled players. Much rather have mid ranged spores and spikes to start with. Would severely assist in the viability and ease of learning the class Imo.
Yeah very true. 250 removed all the support classes for both marines and aliens.
My point was is the last sentence that with the current abilities the lerk is using its a pretty good spot and only needs minor adjustments, if you wanted to make it more beginner friendly you would have to do some rework.
Even though lerk is not using bite, his spikes are insanely powerful. You can't underestimate just how much damage spikes deal. Its not only the dps, the lerk forces marines out of position, distracts their aim, lowers their armor and forces a lot of medpacks from the commander. Adding to that the power of umbra and you got yourself one hell of a support lifeform, if anything it might actually need a nerf in its range supporting.
I COMPLETELY agree with you. While making people not want a class at a certain time of game is good for fine-tuning, simply not allowing them gives more of a hard wall.
To me that signals the opposite. (especially so considering how many people don't want to nerf fades)
And if bite isn't being used, i dont think increasing the Rof will change that, given the reasons why its not being used.
Time for a rework, I'd say. *shrug *
Yes, well w2a1 or w1a2 doesn't have anything to do with the subject. I, too, go for w1a2 nowadays, but the old a1 -> w1 -> w2 -> w3 from NS1 and early NS2 is still inscribed in my brain as the standard tech path.
w1a2 shotguns with 2 established phase gates at the moment of the fadesplosion is still above average in games that I experience. That would require a constant flow of 4-5 RTs, assuming the fades hit the field somewhere around 7-8 minutes, which is more than is usually the case. We might be talking about a different tier of games though, I have no idea what kind of games you play. The tech I would like marines to be at when the fades hit the field would be exactly what you're describing; w1a2-ish marines with shotguns and 1-2 phase gates with good map control. This just usually isn't the case in games I play, and even if it is, the fade ball is still usually too strong.
And 2 fades isn't what I'm forcing it at, it's closer to 3 fades. 2 fades would mean that the alien team has either gone for 1 lerk and 2 gorges, or 2 lerks and 1 gorge, which would mean that they have probably been losing the early game and should justifiably be punished for it by being weaker in the mid-game. This was in a much better position pre B250, when fades still cost 50pres, as the time window that the marines had before the fades hit the field was slightly bigger, which meant that at least one lerk was necessary, and getting a second one was the plan B if things started going south. At the moment, rolling with 5 skulks is entirely possible, with 4 skulks and 1 lerk being the highest diversity any team goes for, as even if the marine team realises that they are winning, they simply won't have time to end the game before the fades hit the field.
The changes I'm suggesting would, in my opinion, change the basic lifeform composition in a normal game from
-3 skulks (ready to fade at the 7-8 minute mark)
-1 lerk (optional even if you're losing the early game) and
-1 gorge (optional, and even when chosen will fade 1-2 minutes after the skulks)
to
-3 skulks (ready to fade at the 9-10th minute mark)
-1 lerk (crucial even if you're winning the early game) and
-1 gorge (crucial for building, and because of bigger res sinks and the need for a gorge even in mid-game, wouldn't be a part of the fadeball)
and because of the gorge and the lerk being non-optional would also prevent
-5 skulks (ready to fade at the 7-8 minute mark)
from happening altogether.
Did you read my post, I basically said by the current design its in a pretty good spot. If you want it to be more beginner friendly you kinda have to rework some of its abilities. The mechanics build around the lerk is what makes it hard for beginners, the lerk state in the game currently is pretty good if you are thinking gaming and balance vise. You can't really do much better with the abilities that the lerk is currently using, most of the changes you can do are very minor and don't really make it easier to play but makes it more rewarding. The best way to make it more beginner friendly is to allow it to be useful in combat without having to take to many risks. Changing numbers won't really solve that issue, you would have change the mechanics.
I actually always think about both sides on the table but at the same time we are limited to work with the current mechanics that have already been made. I could suggest huge reworks but I know that is waste of time and probably won't happen. In most cases where the game is not accessable to newer players is because its made that way by design.
The reason why increased rof would help the lerk alot is because it will allow it to burst damage the marine. There are plenty of times the lerk can get the jump on marine but if he gets medpacks the lerk won't be able to kill him. Because the lerk lacks the burst damage its not worth the risk to go melee. Simplest way to fix that is to equalize the risk vs reward, basically increase the burst damage = increase rof.
Also, you openly admit marines dont do that well during the early game, but completely ignore that as part of the solution to the fade ball. Marines that are able to pressure alien RTs like in pre B250 will also accomplish the same changes you want to change via timings - delaying the fades. As for real timings - fades currently in B250 (assuming close skill, high level play) appear around the 9 minute mark. Holding 3 rts (average for aliens) yields you about 40 res at 8-9 minutes (7 minutes of 3 RTs up). If you let aliens have 4+ rts, your loosing the early game. Also, weakening the early game gorge strength will help make the lerk more required, both for scouting, delaying and harassing. It really surprises me how people look at the current gameplay and blame 100% of the imbalance issues on the fade... If you made 3 simple changes currently to the gorge you would most like see massive balance changes just from that (disable babblers/hydras/clogs).
Address the balance issues in the early game (gorge....), tweak the fade movement mechanics slightly, and remove comm gorge. I still stand by the fact that those changes alone would help marines massively.
I'm trying to make the game interesting for both sides during the whole course of the game, from early to mid to late, away from the current marine situation of either win early or slowly lose during the mid-game, with the extremely boring chance of desperate turtling for half an hour to slowly push out. Delaying the fades without addressing the ball itself would only change the windows, but keep the game binary.
There are other problems in the game, but the fadesplosion is the number one reason for both balance issues and stale gameplay.
By saying its in a good spot, you are suggesting that it currently doesn't need to be more beginner friendly...
To which I strongly disagree with, I guess.
Marines have a window early in the game, and with the summer cup changes to skulk with 60 hp and a whole load of other nerfs, the marines actually have a very reasonable shot at attacking well in the early game.
Extending that window, even in vanilla without the skulk/babbler/umbra nerfs, would be a good first step to try to balance the win rate a bit: during those periods when marines have a slight advantage, they can delay alien tech and promote their own. Lowering starting pres for both teams would amount to a slight marine buff in two ways: 1) marine upgrade path is more dependent on tres than pres, lowering pres delays aliens more than marines and 2) longer early game allowing marines to make the most of their early upgrades advantage.
Someone's already suggested it, but it really is worth trying as a first start. Just decrease starting pres for both teams down to 10 or 15 and see what effect it has on balance on pubs and comp games...
By that logic, the current system would mean that every dead fade would mean one less fade for 15-ish minutes. This isn't the case, however, firstly due to massive res income due to map control due to fades (though this is lessened in my utopia), and secondly because of tres drops.
With your logic, every competitive game where one fade dies (and the alien team is thus brought to the level I'm suggesting) within a minute of the fade ball would be an inevitable loss for the aliens. This isn't the case.
I could start writing up a lot of ideas how to make the lerk more beginner friendly and keep it competitive viable but that would probably require more than just changes to the lerk, everything would have to be adjusted to the new lerk mechanics that would be selected. So its not a simple as just saying: The lerk just needs this.
If we could get down to two fades for a significant period of time we can buff their health and return actual structure damage.
The early game is the best and most balanced part of the game as of now.
Where do you see this? I see quite more games losing in early game in 250/251 than 249. The new skulk messed the early game up. There are a lot more games where marines can control only 1 or 2 extractor in the first 5 or 6 minutes. in 249 you had more chances against the slower normal skulks. but now if you play against a good alien team they kill you under 1 sec. a mark and two bites with super fast jump and its over