I think aliens can somewhat take a 3rd TP in games that are not yet decided, but if marines are holding 3 TP its usually GG for aliens, especially after the 10 min mark.
Can someone explain to me why they think this is?
I felt I experienced the exact opposite the other day : marines were more stretched out and thus easier to knock back down to T2. That's a comeback, just like @xarius said it's difficult.. Not "gg" ??
Now if you mean that's how it feels in vanilla ns2, well yeah of course, its not yet decided because more than likely marines have 2 CCs/T3 as well. Else, a one CC team up against 3 hives is most definitely "gg".
Also if the only argument is veil not being compatible... That's not a good enough reason Imo, especially considering what i know and can't say here for NDA reasons. Just take my word for it.
I've heard some propose it increases snowballing, (Imo it allows for more comebacks) or that it doesn't work.
Also if the only argument is veil not being compatible... That's not a good enough reason Imo, especially considering what i know and can't say here for NDA reasons. Just take my word for it.
I disagree with having upgrades and abilities kept until death, it effectively can remove any penalty from loosing map control. At the same time, I dislike A3/W3 on 3CC's, as it makes the game very black and white for marines. If you do not actively hold the 2nd CC, you cannot progress far into the midgame, its basically instantly game over once fades come out. You have little to no chance to push the fades back to retake that ground. The asymmetry of aliens gaining strength with map control and marines gaining strength with time worked very well in NS1, and there is no reason to attempt to re-invent it, especially in a way which actually makes snowballing way, way worse. With aliens having health that scales with biomass, they can perfectly counter the increasing strength of marine upgrades. There is no reason to double nerf marines in this fashion, the buffs to aliens here are the better way to address the problem.
wait, you dont like 2 CC limit because its limiting progression, but whats about JP and Exo requiring 2 CCs? thats as heavy of a limit, even not more maybe. in that sense, not much has changed, just 1 power (a/w 3) switched with another (jp/exo). those are probably not equal, but they could be. difference is, JP and exo give more choices, no matter of game state. a/w upgrades give you no choice, it makes you stronger and thats all, adds nothing to strategy
Im not against A3/W3 on the 2nd CC, but the 3rd CC requirement is really what my problem is. Those upgrades in no way match up to the 3rd alien abilities, and the game has always been balanced around marines being able to slightly overpower 2 hive aliens (unless you want stalemates for hours).
The reason it increases snowballing is because it makes marine comebacks all but impossible (they were already quite difficult). If you get slightly behind, you will stand absolutely NO chance when fades come out, simply because of the massive power increase aliens get from that... I think you should look at how some comp games play out for marines currently, and try to realize the impacts of actually needing to secure and hold a 2nd TP (not just capping the RT). Your actually encouraging defensive play with this change, at the worst possible time in marine progression. If you play defensively to hold the techpoints needed to just continue teching up, your basically giving the aliens a free pass... I just see this as a huge step in the wrong direction in terms of gameplay. I can understand W3/A3 on 2 CC's, but requiring 3 CCs for those upgrades is just insane.
Aliens generally have always had good comeback potential, its just been limited by a couple misguided choices (beaconing to any CC is probably one of the biggest). With bilebomb on 1 hive (ehhh) they will always have huge potential to get back in the game at any state. Also, having better skulk movement and blink on 1 hive will help keep skulks and fades able to compete through good play, which was another major issue with marine resilience - fades are sooo weak :<
Maybe if you find a way so that xeno/spores/vortex are more important to the aliens, that would balance the 3rd CC requirement just a little bit. But as it stands aliens don't even really need a third hive.
Could experiment with biomass hp/armour scaling progressively rather than linearly, i.e third hive does more than second hive. I'm inclined to agree with the notion that aliens still don't really need 3rd TP, this when now marines definitely DO need it now (with how crucial armour/weapons is). I've had quite a few games of marines with 3 TPs vs 2 TP aliens go awry for the marines already, which to me is a big enough indicator that marines now NEED 3 TPs where as aliens are fine on 2 and that's a world upside down to me.
I think in just putting A/W3 on 3rd CC you are foregoing the reality that these upgrades are more crucial to marine development than added biomass hp/armour on the third hive and a third ability is to alien gameplay. At the very least there would have to be a redesign, to a point where A/W3 gives a more substantial advantage, i.e actually gives marines an edge vs aliens on 2 TP,
wait, you dont like 2 CC limit because its limiting progression, but whats about JP and Exo requiring 2 CCs? thats as heavy of a limit, even not more maybe. in that sense, not much has changed, just 1 power (a/w 3) switched with another (jp/exo). those are probably not equal, but they could be. difference is, JP and exo give more choices, no matter of game state. a/w upgrades give you no choice, it makes you stronger and thats all, adds nothing to strategy which right now definitely isn't the case.
I think xDragon's point was that marines should not need second or third CCs for tech progression at all. So no 2nd CC Proto and no 2nd CC Arms lab upgrades (or only A3/W3). If we actually made aliens require a third hive to be fully competitive (which isn't the case right now, they can be satisfied with 2 hives) then THAT fact alone would be an adequate factor in forcing marine aggression. Like in NS 1 really. Why do both sides need to horde TPs for tech progression? What is wrong with the asymmetrical approach? If one side becomes dramatically more powerful with every TP they acquire then the other side has every reason not to give them said TPs, even if they don't need it for their own tech progression. (But that would obviously imply that 3 TP aliens have to be stronger than endgame marines, which is definitely not the case right now)
At the very least there would have to be a redesign, to a point where A/W3 gives a more substantial advantage, i.e actually gives marines an edge vs aliens on 2 TP
Move Blink to 2 hives and Shadowstep to 3 hives, or vice versa. Fade movement and bhop would need some serious adjustments though. Maybe even spikes could be moved to 2 hives and Umbra/Spores could be one research on 3 hives (green or yellow gas, does it really matter?).
there's an alternative to pinning stuff on 2-3 CC's, and that's to increase the cost further. both methods would accomplish the same, but i think i prefer the CC requirement - otherwise there's literally no point in having >1 CC.
it's clearly classified as a marine nerf though, in 'close' games it would be far more difficult to get A2/W2 - let alone A3/W3. but i don't really object as long as you aren't expected to kill scores of lerk/fade with A1/W1.
@sewlek imo jetpack would definitely replace W3/A3 power, but being 150 pres you only have a couple of 'chances' before you're just a bog standard marine. imo it's a great idea, but it increases the advantage of marine versus skulk; while further increasing the disadvantage of marine versus other lifeforms unless the jetpack cost is significantly reduced.
critically, pres shotgun/jetpack is not the same as pres lerk/fade. this is because marine cannot escape from lerk or fade, and can easily get outnumbered and die without a chance. whereas whenever a lerk or fade dies it's always from his own mistake with over extending etc. maybe another fair solution would be to have marines drop jetpacks after dying, which can be picked up again.
edit: on the subject of dropped items - what's the deal? it seems totally inconsistent even with NO bilebomb, sometimes you sprint from control to c12 and they're there - other times you sprint from control to topo and they've despawned already. also, it's a massively untapped lode of strategy - if you kill 2 shotgunners then it should be immediately obvious to defend/control/ambush the area untill they despawn - the 'lifetime' of downed items should not be short and hidden :P
there's an alternative to pinning stuff on 2-3 CC's, and that's to increase the cost further. both methods would accomplish the same, but i think i prefer the CC requirement - otherwise there's literally no point in having >1 CC.
In NS1 the marines would often build a second one just as a backup in case they needed to relocate. But then again in NS1 having 3 hives made the aliens significantly stronger than the marines, which was reason alone to control hive rooms. That isn't the case so much anymore.
there's an alternative to pinning stuff on 2-3 CC's, and that's to increase the cost further. both methods would accomplish the same, but i think i prefer the CC requirement - otherwise there's literally no point in having >1 CC.
In NS1 the marines would often build a second one just as a backup in case they needed to relocate. But then again in NS1 having 3 hives made the aliens significantly stronger than the marines, which was reason alone to control hive rooms. That isn't the case so much anymore.
3 hives + coordination is pretty crazy in ns2. the only way marines can come back from 3 established hives is if the aliens make loads of mistakes and lose lifeforms too quickly.
anyway, command station costs 15 res, it's not hard to muster up 15 res if you urgrently need a backup.
there's an alternative to pinning stuff on 2-3 CC's, and that's to increase the cost further. both methods would accomplish the same, but i think i prefer the CC requirement - otherwise there's literally no point in having >1 CC.
it's clearly classified as a marine nerf though, in 'close' games it would be far more difficult to get A2/W2 - let alone A3/W3. but i don't really object as long as you aren't expected to kill scores of lerk/fade with A1/W1.
@sewlek imo jetpack would definitely replace W3/A3 power, but being 150 pres you only have a couple of 'chances' before you're just a bog standard marine. imo it's a great idea, but it increases the advantage of marine versus skulk; while further increasing the disadvantage of marine versus other lifeforms unless the jetpack cost is significantly reduced.
critically, pres shotgun/jetpack is not the same as pres lerk/fade. this is because marine cannot escape from lerk or fade, and can easily get outnumbered and die without a chance. whereas whenever a lerk or fade dies it's always from his own mistake with over extending etc. maybe another fair solution would be to have marines drop jetpacks after dying, which can be picked up again.
edit: on the subject of dropped items - what's the deal? it seems totally inconsistent even with NO bilebomb, sometimes you sprint from control to c12 and they're there - other times you sprint from control to topo and they've despawned already. also, it's a massively untapped lode of strategy - if you kill 2 shotgunners then it should be immediately obvious to defend/control/ambush the area untill they despawn - the 'lifetime' of downed items should not be short and hidden :P
Maybe jetpacks should cost 125 res. After all we have that system in place now.
I agree that there should be some tweaks to dropped weapons. It's a slap in a face if a weapon despawns right at your feed while you try to press the G key and then find yourself with just your rifle dropped on the ground but nothing got picked up.
Games like UT made the weapon indicate that it was to disappear by scaling it slowly down to 0 over the last few seconds of it's existence, in combination with some shiny particle effect. So dropped stuff in NS2 could use the same "despawn" shader as recycled structures when it's close to disappearing.
I also think that the key for picking up a weapon should be different from the key for dropping a weapon. It's so much of a hazzle if you have to carefully walk up to it, make sure that the correct weapon is targeted for the action and then press the key, just to prevent you from accidentally dropping your primary weapon for no reason (after all the keys in games are just shortcuts for actions that the character would logically do if he was real - and no real character would just accidentally drop a weapon when he attempts to pick another one up, so the game controls are causing an unintended handicap here). Just use E for picking stuff up and G for dropping it, or something like that.
And I agree that dropped weapons should stay around for a ~slightly~ longer time, at least when aliens have the ability to actually get Bile Bomb on 1 Hive so that they could deny the dropped weapons if they wanted.
Making teams weaker on lower tech points is not the answer.... It just needs to be changed to be W3/A3 linked to the 2nd CC, with no 3rd CC requirement. 3rd tier alien abilities should be adjusted at some point to be quite useful and even slightly OP (aliens shouldnt rely on ONOS spam to end 2 CC vs 3 Hive games). Spores suck as a 3rd hive ability (how many times have I said thats the case??), Vortex is useless (its known), Xeno will probably be much better with the changes in this mod (except Marine respawn is back down to 8 seconds? Why?). Gorge gets.... should get webs, which I think is planned at some point.. Onos get stomp which is pretty meh.
I do not think decreasing the JP cost is good (more powerful JP is better). I still would rather see more horizontal acceleration on the jetpack (and slightly less verticle).
Making teams weaker on lower tech points is not the answer.... It just needs to be changed to be W3/A3 linked to the 2nd CC, with no 3rd CC requirement. 3rd tier alien abilities should be adjusted at some point to be quite useful and even slightly OP (aliens shouldnt rely on ONOS spam to end 2 CC vs 3 Hive games). Spores suck as a 3rd hive ability (how many times have I said thats the case??), Vortex is useless (its known), Xeno will probably be much better with the changes in this mod (except Marine respawn is back down to 8 seconds? Why?). Gorge gets.... should get webs, which I think is planned at some point.. Onos get stomp which is pretty meh.
There are some changes to vortex in the bt mod but honestly it's still useless. It's just not a very good ability.
And yeah, I've been wondering since the release of this game - how do i shot web? All this time and I still haven't figured it out.
One problem I do have with the CC requirement is that it's not very intuitive that CCs are important to build. They are a structure that does literally nothing. The only gameplay reason to have two is so you won't lose if your first one gets rushed. The hive, on the other hand, is a critical structure for healing and spawning alone.
To borrow a concept from Sewlek's last mod, what if CCs could be built anywhere and the armory was what you built on the tech point? Or arms labs, if we don't want to remove forward armories.
I like the idea that marines can reach max tech/strength with two CCs whereas aliens need three hives. Because asymmetry is cool. There will still be vicious fighting over the fifth tech point - aliens very badly want the third hive, and therefore marines want very badly to prevent that.
Aliens need to hold the tech point well enough to grow and protect a hive, whereas marines don't need to hold it well enough to drop and protect a chair, so that gives marines an advantage... but again that's fine because asymmetry is cool.
I don't think there's any risk at all of NS2 becoming a symmetrical game, so I don't see that as a good reason to veto a change. It makes sense from a game design perspective that territory and resources are equally important to both teams, seeing as those are the most fundamental objectives of the game.
B - The time taken for marines to get to the w3/a3 is increased - as it takes longer for aliens to tech up in this mod.
A - aliens get some 3rd hive abilities that are actually worthwhile and not just a token "for the hell of it" ability.
I can't yet decide if exo's/jp being available at 1CC is a good thing. I like that it gives more options to marines, but it also proved annoying as marines were able to turtle for ~10 mins against aliens who had the map dominated, simply because they were able to buy 3 exos at the very end-game.
It makes sense from a game design perspective that territory and resources are equally important to both teams, seeing as those are the most fundamental objectives of the game.
It makes sense, and it's easier. But it's not an absolute requirement. And if there's asymmetry even in the fundamentals, the game is more beautiful for it.
UWE can do the hard work to make a beautiful game. I want to encourage them to do so.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
My view atm is 100% based on a run on a 1 player listenserver to see what this mod does. Still need to actively play it in the field!
So Ill probably add stuff to the list later on or correct stuff.
LIKE:
* New cysts are more intuitive. Now if its somewhere in the circle, its droppable.
* The always crag/shift/shade with moving them & echo is a nifty thing to keep a comm a bit more busy. It also alows for more versatile tacts.
* Old alien NS1 upgrade model. (3 shells for full carapace for example). It feels right and you gain some advantage early on when there is less res to build everything yet.
Full upgrade choice is a bonus.
* extra popup info (lifeform menu)
* shadowstep feels superior to blink so it is right to swap them.
* vortex is click & go.
* nice to see in the lifeform menu what you lose if a hive dies.
* faster dying infestation.
* Building on infestation, but less efficient.
* love powersurge. It can be used in emergencies & lets aliens learn to attack some important stuff. Combined with the infestation rule this also allows for some lovely sneaking.
NO LIKE:
* You can not use mist to speadup a just placed cyst before its active.
* Which is a expensive but cruel trick when cysting a marine position for stuff.
* Full upgrade choice can also be a negative thing if your tactic needs to deny your aliens a certain upgrade.
* Since we have the menu, why not put the 'we have 3 shells' on this to not clutter your ui? (keep it on the commander interface)
* hard to see which hive has the option to biomass. It is also unclear if this is linked to the hive which upgraded it. (as commander)
* biomass does not seem to effect eggs. (unsure)
* halucinations seem confusing to use.
* you have a icon to drop a welder when you have no armory, should be red or something.
* if you echo a gorge tunnel, its infestation does not move.
* arc needs scan and not its own LoS to fire. Also seem unresponsive to new targets if you do not scan but marines shoots them. (as in, sometimes it just refuses to fire)
(this one I have trouble reproducing actually, but it not working was the first time)
Oke, don't shoot me, first time i played this mod:
*Aks skulk, it feels i'm losing allot against shotguns, also early ingame (it can also be the quality of the players...)
*The game last longer and was more fun. The marines almost killed our second hive and they had 2/3 off the map. Some players were already conceding but we managed to push them back and win the game (*~50 min later). I think in the time i played ns2 (now 104 hours) this happens rarely
*I think the echo is to powerfull without any upgrades. The marines managed to turtle very long with them against alost full upgraded onos
*It feels more like Ns1 (the longer games, the upgrades), More RTS, less FPS
*As commander it's possible to take more strategies to turn the tide of the game
*I don't get the new resource-system fully yet, but i think i like it...
*Moving the crag/shift etc. is a very nice option!
*Biosmass, cool addition also
I don't think there's any risk at all of NS2 becoming a symmetrical game, so I don't see that as a good reason to veto a change. It makes sense from a game design perspective that territory and resources are equally important to both teams, seeing as those are the most fundamental objectives of the game.
I don't think something making more sense is an adequate criteria for good game design. If anything, the beauty has always been in the asymmetry of it all and one could very well argue that it can make just as much sense for one side to be the rapid-expansion one vs one being the one having to deny said expansion. As dragon pointed out, just because marines wouldn't need TPs for their own tech doesn't mean it's not equally important for them as it is for aliens.
The way I see it, marines have just as much interest in denying aliens hive as aliens have in acquiring them, as such the importance of map control for both sides is present. The problem with 5 tp maps though is that marines can never realistically hope to deny aliens a second hive, unless it's a stomp. And once aliens hit 2 hives they can reach their endgame potential more or less. So what definitely needs to happen is the third hive needs to become more important. (Whether or not this should be at the expense of the second is a seperate matter to discuss) Right now aliens are FAR too comfy on 2 hives, they really don't need a third, this when now marines DO need a third with how important armour and weapon upgrades are. I think moving A/W3 to 2 tp only while at the same time increasing the importance of third hive (and actually giving aliens an edge on that third hive, making it equally important for marines to deny) is THE way to go.
1) Marine Spawn time needs to be increased again
The spammy feel of the game was starting to ease slightly with the increased spawn time and there was finally a small sense of accomplishment with an alien kill. I don't really like the thought of going to back to wave upon wave of mindless marines engaging aliens all over the place. It has never felt tidy, nor satisfying.
2) Please don't make 3CC requirement for W3/A3.
We really don't want to be encouraging more of this "external fortress" type play as it's really damaging the overall flow of the game. It's bad enough as it is that we have speedy armour/health regen armouries at every phase gate (and in publics, turrets as well). The CC is overkill. I understand the logic behind this but I think we need to come at it from a broader perspective and ask whether we like these strongholds in general. I personally think that it is the aliens who have these natural havens that need to stormed and if we encourage marines to copy this, then games aren't going to be as fun or free-flowing. In NS1, outposts consisted of a phasegate and a pack of mines ONLY. They were resilient, not by virtue of spam, but because of marine presence, planning and good commanding - we've dumbed this down a thousand dials.
3) Tech explosions are crying out for a solution. I know people hate the idea of RFK (unreasonably and hypocritically, I think) but it should be explored or at least some alternative posited that genuinely helps. Most solutions I envisage have the positive side-effect of addressing the boring exo-onos war also.
Comments
I felt I experienced the exact opposite the other day : marines were more stretched out and thus easier to knock back down to T2. That's a comeback, just like @xarius said it's difficult.. Not "gg" ??
Now if you mean that's how it feels in vanilla ns2, well yeah of course, its not yet decided because more than likely marines have 2 CCs/T3 as well. Else, a one CC team up against 3 hives is most definitely "gg".
Also if the only argument is veil not being compatible... That's not a good enough reason Imo, especially considering what i know and can't say here for NDA reasons. Just take my word for it.
I've heard some propose it increases snowballing, (Imo it allows for more comebacks) or that it doesn't work.
But no one has yet to explain why...?
Nanogrid techpoint confirmed!
wait, you dont like 2 CC limit because its limiting progression, but whats about JP and Exo requiring 2 CCs? thats as heavy of a limit, even not more maybe. in that sense, not much has changed, just 1 power (a/w 3) switched with another (jp/exo). those are probably not equal, but they could be. difference is, JP and exo give more choices, no matter of game state. a/w upgrades give you no choice, it makes you stronger and thats all, adds nothing to strategy
The reason it increases snowballing is because it makes marine comebacks all but impossible (they were already quite difficult). If you get slightly behind, you will stand absolutely NO chance when fades come out, simply because of the massive power increase aliens get from that... I think you should look at how some comp games play out for marines currently, and try to realize the impacts of actually needing to secure and hold a 2nd TP (not just capping the RT). Your actually encouraging defensive play with this change, at the worst possible time in marine progression. If you play defensively to hold the techpoints needed to just continue teching up, your basically giving the aliens a free pass... I just see this as a huge step in the wrong direction in terms of gameplay. I can understand W3/A3 on 2 CC's, but requiring 3 CCs for those upgrades is just insane.
Aliens generally have always had good comeback potential, its just been limited by a couple misguided choices (beaconing to any CC is probably one of the biggest). With bilebomb on 1 hive (ehhh) they will always have huge potential to get back in the game at any state. Also, having better skulk movement and blink on 1 hive will help keep skulks and fades able to compete through good play, which was another major issue with marine resilience - fades are sooo weak :<
I think in just putting A/W3 on 3rd CC you are foregoing the reality that these upgrades are more crucial to marine development than added biomass hp/armour on the third hive and a third ability is to alien gameplay. At the very least there would have to be a redesign, to a point where A/W3 gives a more substantial advantage, i.e actually gives marines an edge vs aliens on 2 TP,
I think xDragon's point was that marines should not need second or third CCs for tech progression at all. So no 2nd CC Proto and no 2nd CC Arms lab upgrades (or only A3/W3). If we actually made aliens require a third hive to be fully competitive (which isn't the case right now, they can be satisfied with 2 hives) then THAT fact alone would be an adequate factor in forcing marine aggression. Like in NS 1 really. Why do both sides need to horde TPs for tech progression? What is wrong with the asymmetrical approach? If one side becomes dramatically more powerful with every TP they acquire then the other side has every reason not to give them said TPs, even if they don't need it for their own tech progression. (But that would obviously imply that 3 TP aliens have to be stronger than endgame marines, which is definitely not the case right now)
it's clearly classified as a marine nerf though, in 'close' games it would be far more difficult to get A2/W2 - let alone A3/W3. but i don't really object as long as you aren't expected to kill scores of lerk/fade with A1/W1.
@sewlek imo jetpack would definitely replace W3/A3 power, but being 150 pres you only have a couple of 'chances' before you're just a bog standard marine. imo it's a great idea, but it increases the advantage of marine versus skulk; while further increasing the disadvantage of marine versus other lifeforms unless the jetpack cost is significantly reduced.
critically, pres shotgun/jetpack is not the same as pres lerk/fade. this is because marine cannot escape from lerk or fade, and can easily get outnumbered and die without a chance. whereas whenever a lerk or fade dies it's always from his own mistake with over extending etc. maybe another fair solution would be to have marines drop jetpacks after dying, which can be picked up again.
edit: on the subject of dropped items - what's the deal? it seems totally inconsistent even with NO bilebomb, sometimes you sprint from control to c12 and they're there - other times you sprint from control to topo and they've despawned already. also, it's a massively untapped lode of strategy - if you kill 2 shotgunners then it should be immediately obvious to defend/control/ambush the area untill they despawn - the 'lifetime' of downed items should not be short and hidden :P
In NS1 the marines would often build a second one just as a backup in case they needed to relocate. But then again in NS1 having 3 hives made the aliens significantly stronger than the marines, which was reason alone to control hive rooms. That isn't the case so much anymore.
3 hives + coordination is pretty crazy in ns2. the only way marines can come back from 3 established hives is if the aliens make loads of mistakes and lose lifeforms too quickly.
anyway, command station costs 15 res, it's not hard to muster up 15 res if you urgrently need a backup.
Maybe jetpacks should cost 125 res. After all we have that system in place now.
I agree that there should be some tweaks to dropped weapons. It's a slap in a face if a weapon despawns right at your feed while you try to press the G key and then find yourself with just your rifle dropped on the ground but nothing got picked up.
Games like UT made the weapon indicate that it was to disappear by scaling it slowly down to 0 over the last few seconds of it's existence, in combination with some shiny particle effect. So dropped stuff in NS2 could use the same "despawn" shader as recycled structures when it's close to disappearing.
I also think that the key for picking up a weapon should be different from the key for dropping a weapon. It's so much of a hazzle if you have to carefully walk up to it, make sure that the correct weapon is targeted for the action and then press the key, just to prevent you from accidentally dropping your primary weapon for no reason (after all the keys in games are just shortcuts for actions that the character would logically do if he was real - and no real character would just accidentally drop a weapon when he attempts to pick another one up, so the game controls are causing an unintended handicap here). Just use E for picking stuff up and G for dropping it, or something like that.
And I agree that dropped weapons should stay around for a ~slightly~ longer time, at least when aliens have the ability to actually get Bile Bomb on 1 Hive so that they could deny the dropped weapons if they wanted.
Ummmm... 1-Hive walking fade to stronk.
I do not think decreasing the JP cost is good (more powerful JP is better). I still would rather see more horizontal acceleration on the jetpack (and slightly less verticle).
There are some changes to vortex in the bt mod but honestly it's still useless. It's just not a very good ability.
And yeah, I've been wondering since the release of this game - how do i shot web? All this time and I still haven't figured it out.
To borrow a concept from Sewlek's last mod, what if CCs could be built anywhere and the armory was what you built on the tech point? Or arms labs, if we don't want to remove forward armories.
Aliens need to hold the tech point well enough to grow and protect a hive, whereas marines don't need to hold it well enough to drop and protect a chair, so that gives marines an advantage... but again that's fine because asymmetry is cool.
B - The time taken for marines to get to the w3/a3 is increased - as it takes longer for aliens to tech up in this mod.
A - aliens get some 3rd hive abilities that are actually worthwhile and not just a token "for the hell of it" ability.
I can't yet decide if exo's/jp being available at 1CC is a good thing. I like that it gives more options to marines, but it also proved annoying as marines were able to turtle for ~10 mins against aliens who had the map dominated, simply because they were able to buy 3 exos at the very end-game.
It makes sense, and it's easier. But it's not an absolute requirement. And if there's asymmetry even in the fundamentals, the game is more beautiful for it.
UWE can do the hard work to make a beautiful game. I want to encourage them to do so.
So Ill probably add stuff to the list later on or correct stuff.
LIKE:
* New cysts are more intuitive. Now if its somewhere in the circle, its droppable.
* The always crag/shift/shade with moving them & echo is a nifty thing to keep a comm a bit more busy. It also alows for more versatile tacts.
* Old alien NS1 upgrade model. (3 shells for full carapace for example). It feels right and you gain some advantage early on when there is less res to build everything yet.
Full upgrade choice is a bonus.
* extra popup info (lifeform menu)
* shadowstep feels superior to blink so it is right to swap them.
* vortex is click & go.
* nice to see in the lifeform menu what you lose if a hive dies.
* faster dying infestation.
* Building on infestation, but less efficient.
* love powersurge. It can be used in emergencies & lets aliens learn to attack some important stuff. Combined with the infestation rule this also allows for some lovely sneaking.
NO LIKE:
* You can not use mist to speadup a just placed cyst before its active.
* Which is a expensive but cruel trick when cysting a marine position for stuff.
* Full upgrade choice can also be a negative thing if your tactic needs to deny your aliens a certain upgrade.
* Since we have the menu, why not put the 'we have 3 shells' on this to not clutter your ui? (keep it on the commander interface)
* hard to see which hive has the option to biomass. It is also unclear if this is linked to the hive which upgraded it. (as commander)
* biomass does not seem to effect eggs. (unsure)
* halucinations seem confusing to use.
* you have a icon to drop a welder when you have no armory, should be red or something.
* if you echo a gorge tunnel, its infestation does not move.
* arc needs scan and not its own LoS to fire. Also seem unresponsive to new targets if you do not scan but marines shoots them. (as in, sometimes it just refuses to fire)
(this one I have trouble reproducing actually, but it not working was the first time)
*Aks skulk, it feels i'm losing allot against shotguns, also early ingame (it can also be the quality of the players...)
*The game last longer and was more fun. The marines almost killed our second hive and they had 2/3 off the map. Some players were already conceding but we managed to push them back and win the game (*~50 min later). I think in the time i played ns2 (now 104 hours) this happens rarely
*I think the echo is to powerfull without any upgrades. The marines managed to turtle very long with them against alost full upgraded onos
*It feels more like Ns1 (the longer games, the upgrades), More RTS, less FPS
*As commander it's possible to take more strategies to turn the tide of the game
*I don't get the new resource-system fully yet, but i think i like it...
*Moving the crag/shift etc. is a very nice option!
*Biosmass, cool addition also
I don't think something making more sense is an adequate criteria for good game design. If anything, the beauty has always been in the asymmetry of it all and one could very well argue that it can make just as much sense for one side to be the rapid-expansion one vs one being the one having to deny said expansion. As dragon pointed out, just because marines wouldn't need TPs for their own tech doesn't mean it's not equally important for them as it is for aliens.
The way I see it, marines have just as much interest in denying aliens hive as aliens have in acquiring them, as such the importance of map control for both sides is present. The problem with 5 tp maps though is that marines can never realistically hope to deny aliens a second hive, unless it's a stomp. And once aliens hit 2 hives they can reach their endgame potential more or less. So what definitely needs to happen is the third hive needs to become more important. (Whether or not this should be at the expense of the second is a seperate matter to discuss) Right now aliens are FAR too comfy on 2 hives, they really don't need a third, this when now marines DO need a third with how important armour and weapon upgrades are. I think moving A/W3 to 2 tp only while at the same time increasing the importance of third hive (and actually giving aliens an edge on that third hive, making it equally important for marines to deny) is THE way to go.
The spammy feel of the game was starting to ease slightly with the increased spawn time and there was finally a small sense of accomplishment with an alien kill. I don't really like the thought of going to back to wave upon wave of mindless marines engaging aliens all over the place. It has never felt tidy, nor satisfying.
2) Please don't make 3CC requirement for W3/A3.
We really don't want to be encouraging more of this "external fortress" type play as it's really damaging the overall flow of the game. It's bad enough as it is that we have speedy armour/health regen armouries at every phase gate (and in publics, turrets as well). The CC is overkill. I understand the logic behind this but I think we need to come at it from a broader perspective and ask whether we like these strongholds in general. I personally think that it is the aliens who have these natural havens that need to stormed and if we encourage marines to copy this, then games aren't going to be as fun or free-flowing. In NS1, outposts consisted of a phasegate and a pack of mines ONLY. They were resilient, not by virtue of spam, but because of marine presence, planning and good commanding - we've dumbed this down a thousand dials.
3) Tech explosions are crying out for a solution. I know people hate the idea of RFK (unreasonably and hypocritically, I think) but it should be explored or at least some alternative posited that genuinely helps. Most solutions I envisage have the positive side-effect of addressing the boring exo-onos war also.