Sewlek's Beta Test Mod

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Comments

  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited May 2013
    Ok just played today, no commanding stuff so no feedback on that, not sure what changed in the past week or so when I haven't been on

    Marines: Feels good, no complaints about them currently (as of right now 5/4/2013 @ 1:03 pm) -- really loving the shotgun hitting everything i aim at

    Aliens: Skulk - feels much slower now (accels slower?) so if you lose momentum you get that "I'm a brick" feeling back; Also felt like I was missing a few bites here and there when they looked like lands on my screen (not even glancing) felt like there was no distance between us and the bite didn't go through. Idk if anything changed here or maybe it's a placebo from moving slower can't be though *when you get celerity and leap though it doesn't feel so bad, also with maxed adrenaline I feel you should get another extra leap if the skulk is going to remain at this slower speed or else celerity would be the only pick imo) -- just doesn't feel very good

    ***Lerk - something is wrong with speed celerity off/celerity on, feels VERY slow -- doesn't feel good

    Fade - Feels really good - Blink changed somehow, or some type of air friction/ground friction? Now I need to jump into the air, then blink and jump again, before I was just blink jumping.// anyway regardless, I like how this fade is playing

    Onos - didn't try
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Jekt wrote: »
    Agiel wrote:
    Actually, Skulks do get speed from bunnyhopping...

    Eventually, speed is much more effectively gained by chaining together glancing wall jumps and essentially maintaining that momentum between wall touches with bunny hopping.

    Honestly I think high speeds are far too easily achieved and maintained, mouse movements should be more prominent in the movement, especially in the wall jumping (wall tapping) component.

    It doesn't have to be easy but it should be intuitive. I don't want to see speed gains from special mouse movement make a comeback, that's what made bunnyhopping so inaccessible in NS1.
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Zek wrote: »
    Jekt wrote: »
    Agiel wrote:
    Actually, Skulks do get speed from bunnyhopping...

    Eventually, speed is much more effectively gained by chaining together glancing wall jumps and essentially maintaining that momentum between wall touches with bunny hopping.

    Honestly I think high speeds are far too easily achieved and maintained, mouse movements should be more prominent in the movement, especially in the wall jumping (wall tapping) component.

    It doesn't have to be easy but it should be intuitive. I don't want to see speed gains from special mouse movement make a comeback, that's what made bunnyhopping so inaccessible in NS1.

    It was more the DON'T HOLD FORWARD part of bunnyhopping that was the retarded part in gldsrc. There needs to be some mouse movement else it just devolves into hold forward and jump.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    Skulk movement in the bt mod is very different from NS2. The major problem with all skulk movement is that there is no intuitive way of knowing how you are supposed to act to gain speed, and sensing the difference in speed is actually pretty hard, so you can get misled into doing the wrong thing.

    The bt mod skulk movement is more "magic" than the current ns2 move. In ns2, you get 1.5 extra speed if you jump off a wall, and that's pretty much it. In the bt mod, its a lot ... more complex, with strafing keys and jumping being used in rythm to keep speed up.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    matso wrote: »
    Skulk movement in the bt mod is very different from NS2. The major problem with all skulk movement is that there is no intuitive way of knowing how you are supposed to act to gain speed, and sensing the difference in speed is actually pretty hard, so you can get misled into doing the wrong thing.

    This is why games have mandatory in-game tutorials... but not NS2 :(
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2013
    Industry wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    Jekt wrote: »
    Agiel wrote:
    Actually, Skulks do get speed from bunnyhopping...

    Eventually, speed is much more effectively gained by chaining together glancing wall jumps and essentially maintaining that momentum between wall touches with bunny hopping.

    Honestly I think high speeds are far too easily achieved and maintained, mouse movements should be more prominent in the movement, especially in the wall jumping (wall tapping) component.

    It doesn't have to be easy but it should be intuitive. I don't want to see speed gains from special mouse movement make a comeback, that's what made bunnyhopping so inaccessible in NS1.

    It was more the DON'T HOLD FORWARD part of bunnyhopping that was the retarded part in gldsrc. There needs to be some mouse movement else it just devolves into hold forward and jump.

    Don't hold forward is something you can be told in five seconds and now you know it(not that I think it should be in NS2). That was by no means the hardest part of figuring out how NS1 bunnyhopping works.

    The movement mechanic should feel very easy to execute for people who are bunnyhopping vets - easier than NS1 bunnyhopping, certainly. If it's not, something is horribly wrong. When people who are thoroughly familiar with these movement mechanics ask for something that feels challenging to them, what they're really asking for is a movement mechanic that ordinary players will never be able to use.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2013
    It already is massively easier - the primary speed gain mechanic is exactly the same as live NS2, walljumping. Bhop is not going to magically get you 20 speed, nor is it going to make you accelerate super quick. Its more of an advanced mechanic ontop of a more simplfied mechanic, which helps make entry level easier (its easy to grasp jumping off the wall for speed, once your told/shown it atleast), but also offers a much larger skill ceiling compared to just simply walljump.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    I'll try and make a video, buts its nearly possible to transverse summit without touching the ground with the bhop/walljump mechanic. You can go damn scary fast if you play it like a racing car game (taking corners wide)
  • RadmanRadman Join Date: 2013-04-05 Member: 184656Members
    edited May 2013
    But do skulks have to know how to utilized skill based movement when they are new? Bad marine aim cancels out bad skulk movement for the most part. And when skulks get better, they will learn how to bunnyhop. The solution here is to group players of equal skill together.

    Mandatory skulk movement tutorials would only ensure noobs have information about a mechanic they cant/dont want to learn how to utilize. There is so much they have to learn and practice in this game, you cant force it all on them at once.

    I would be frustrated if tf2 forced an airstrafing/rocket jumping tutorial for playing soldier, even though its kind of necessary to get better.
  • Marshall_DrumminMarshall_Drummin Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174115Members
    The skulk movement in bt mod is all great and stuff, but in actual combat it translates to a nerf. Yes you can bhop and gain a lot of speed, but inability to change direction when positional precision is paramount (at melee range), the skulk falls short. You don't get into melee range by bhopping across a room and gaining speed. By that time you've been heard and shot. You get into melee range by ambushing, being there already.

    I don't think a movement revamp is warranted at all. There is nothing wrong with the game at the moment, except for nano shield duration being nerfed too much. Maybe cyst popping being WAY too cheap. We need more tech variety, like different viable build orders, not a revamp on whats fine. Clean up celerity and camo, add some cool new tech paths for marines.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    The skulk movement in bt mod is all great and stuff, but in actual combat it translates to a nerf. Yes you can bhop and gain a lot of speed, but inability to change direction when positional precision is paramount (at melee range), the skulk falls short. You don't get into melee range by bhopping across a room and gaining speed. By that time you've been heard and shot. You get into melee range by ambushing, being there already.

    I don't think a movement revamp is warranted at all. There is nothing wrong with the game at the moment, except for nano shield duration being nerfed too much. Maybe cyst popping being WAY too cheap. We need more tech variety, like different viable build orders, not a revamp on whats fine. Clean up celerity and camo, add some cool new tech paths for marines.

    The power of abrupt momentum changes in a combat situation is why Skulk acceleration was nerfed in the live build to begin with. A speed/maneuverability tradeoff is one of the design goals of the new system, for good reason.
  • Marshall_DrumminMarshall_Drummin Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174115Members
    edited May 2013
    The maneuverability is no where near where it was pre build 240. You don't gain momentum as a skulk anymore, this patch you just don't lose it immediately like in the builds post 239.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    Marshall, I assume your talking about jumping and trying to turn in mid air as skulk? When I fight marine and he side strafejumps and I try to curve in the air like ns1/ns2live its almost like I hit a wall in the air and stop completely.

    It's very frustrating I agree, only part of movement mod I don't like.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    I'm against any skulk movement change that further reduces a skulks acceleration speed.

    Being able to change directions fast and being able to keep up with a marine moving back and forth is all that really matters.

    Sure getting around a map fast and getting to a marine quickly is great and all... but it's not going to win you any fights if the marine is outpacing you once you get to him because his acceleration speed is faster.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    edited May 2013
    rantology wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    Skulk movement in the bt mod is very different from NS2. The major problem with all skulk movement is that there is no intuitive way of knowing how you are supposed to act to gain speed, and sensing the difference in speed is actually pretty hard, so you can get misled into doing the wrong thing.

    This is why games have mandatory in-game tutorials... but not NS2 :(

    i don't see it that way.

    any ns2 player with an interest in learning the game will see a skulk moving 10 times faster than him and instantly ask/search for how to do it. then practice on the fly and pick it up in minutes.

    the addition of a tutorial won't suddenly make casual players want to learn how to move more efficiently.

    did half life have a bunny hop tutorial?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited May 2013
    tarquinbb wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    Skulk movement in the bt mod is very different from NS2. The major problem with all skulk movement is that there is no intuitive way of knowing how you are supposed to act to gain speed, and sensing the difference in speed is actually pretty hard, so you can get misled into doing the wrong thing.

    This is why games have mandatory in-game tutorials... but not NS2 :(

    i don't see it that way.

    any ns2 player with an interest in learning the game will see a skulk moving 10 times faster than him and instantly ask/search for how to do it. then practice on the fly and pick it up in minutes.

    the addition of a tutorial won't suddenly make casual players want to learn how move more efficiently.

    did half life have a bunny hop tutorial?

    I heartily disagree with this logic, it's 2013 and gaming is different. After recently trying out games like Chivalry and Forge, they both have great in-game tutorials you can play through before going online, that introduce you to mechanics and techniques that would otherwise likely remain lost in obscurity until you have an "Oh! THAT's how this works!" moments after hours and hours of playing. It would make a complex game like NS2 much more accessible to the masses in this respect as there are so many different little unique mechanics and tactics associated with each lifeform and piece of tech.

    It's a moot point though, there is no tutorial for ns2 and sadly, there will likely never be one.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    Tried the lerk in 1 short game. Not a fan of how you loose so much speed by gliding compared to live leaving it more difficult to be stealthy.
    Overall it also felt considerably slower.
    Ground friction should be lowered. While shark lerk (flying across the ground for long distances) in the live build may have be a bit unbalanced its a valid tactic to evade fire and get through small places like vents.

    As a skulk I still feel I lose speed abruptly an unnaturally by simply moving the mouse left or right a little too much. The movement doesn't feel fluid as far as traveling is concerned, it feels too stop and go as you travel around the tight hallways.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2013
    Shark lerk should indeed be valid, but it should also require skill as an additional skill based movement mechanic (just like bhop or walljump). Not simply face mashing into the ground. Even back in the day when you would lose basically all your speed if you so much as touched something, you could still 'shark lerk' and get the exploit ground speed boost. You just needed to have good lerk control and good distance judgement. Personally, i think lerk is already too forgiving with the current surface transition time/low ground friction or whatever it is.
  • deathst4rdeathst4r Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19365Members
    edited May 2013
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    I just wanted to share this with you.
    In my point of view combat agility should be one of the main traits of the skulk (but it shouldn't be an invincible roadrunner) - so any nerfs to movement while in combat seem strange... at least to me.

    Best regards,
    deathst4r
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    The bhop mechanic is at the least interesting, I'm unsure at this present time if theres a "skill cap" for it. like movement of the mouse increases speed as it did in ns1, ql which is the whole point of bhopping, strafe jumping.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2013
    Out of curiousity, why do people like shark lerk? It doesnt really offer any evasion (your moving perfectly flat, predictably), it doesnt offer any speed gain (nor has it in live for a long time). I could see missing the takeoff speed gain thats in live currently, but I see no real reason for the shark lerk to even be possible. It just makes lerk flight much more careless overall, which is already overly forgiving IMO.

    As for the flapping change I think thats really a good change, lerks in live currently can almost always move as if they have silence, simply because there is 0 reason to flap outside of evasive movement.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2013
    If the flapping change stays, then flapping costing energy must be removed, for various reasons, most notably that it'd just be an unnecessary nerf compared to live build in regards to available energy.. And if you lessened the value of energy cost from flapping anymore you might as well remove it anyways.

    Here's to the return of the sustained dodge /spiking meta game!
  • GadxGadx Join Date: 2003-03-22 Member: 14788Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like the lerk as is, but I feel like a small speed increase would make it better along with a slight hp decrease.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    xDragon wrote: »
    Out of curiousity, why do people like shark lerk? It doesnt really offer any evasion (your moving perfectly flat, predictably), it doesnt offer any speed gain (nor has it in live for a long time). I could see missing the takeoff speed gain thats in live currently, but I see no real reason for the shark lerk to even be possible. It just makes lerk flight much more careless overall, which is already overly forgiving IMO.

    Shark lerking is extremely useful for evasion when you use it to block line of sight. Elevator is good example going in that floor vent to escape or attack from. Another good example is going up the steps in ore processing getting ready to combat a marine on the top of platform on the right. You can approach marines from weird unexpected angles quite frequently which is the biggest reason I use it. It also does allow you to get to max speed quicker (which i don't think we need to carry over) when you fly against the ground to take off. You can gain full speed in I believe only 2 flaps as opposed to 3-4 or whatever it is.


    I'm not saying we need to import it exactly from live but a compromise between what's now and what's live would be a good start.

    And about the lerk having perma silence. The lerk has rather low HP (in live), being able to silently move around the map and not broadcast your position every 20 feet is a huge benefit. The glide change will change how the lerk play quite a bit. You really can't use it to scope out an area in tight corridors since your just waiting to be insta gibbed by 1-2 marines if you have to flap constantly.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Blocking LOS you can do without 'shark' lerking. You could very easily fly a very small amount off the ground to achieve almost the exact same LOS block, which also increases the skill requirements of lerking. As for aproaching from unexpected angles or attempting to take marines by surprise, the same thing can be acheived by using height or verticle geometery to conceal your approach until very late. The argument for using it as a surprise mechanic is pretty flawed, as its become common enough to see players lerking on the ground that its almost expected anymore.

    As for the sound changes, you do not have to flap constantly, you just wont have as much speed. Its a tradeoff - you shouldnt be able to move full speed silently as a lerk, it just doesnt make sense..

    I dont see any reason to remove the flap energy cost, especially with spikes costing so little energy. Even if you run out of energy as lerk you can still almost always get away, simply because the flap cost is low enough that you can still flap 3 times per second. You already have an unlimited ammo rifle basically, no reason to make it so you really can fire it forever.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    xDragon wrote: »
    As for the sound changes, you do not have to flap constantly, you just wont have as much speed. Its a tradeoff - you shouldnt be able to move full speed silently as a lerk, it just doesnt make sense..

    I think i agree about glide full speed but It still felt like I had to lap too much In the balance mod. It wasn't a little amount of extra flaps, it was a ton. + the lerk even flapping constantly felt terribly slow. Has there been a speed change to it?
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    If the "brick" lerk stays, that's fine, but a reduction cost in flapping sounds good! Cause you need to flap a lot more, flap flap flap

    Personally I liked the previous speedy BT lerk, the extra speed while helping you escape; made it harder for you to bite in certain situations cause you need to track much quicker (since you're moving quicker) and the lerk already goes down to 2 direct shotguns (which you'll most likely get hit by if you ever face two marines with shotguns)

    But lerk is suppose to be a in-and-out and support type role, so I guess "brick" lerk makes sense (cries)



  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    edited May 2013
    current1y wrote: »
    And about the lerk having perma silence. The lerk has rather low HP (in live), being able to silently move around the map and not broadcast your position every 20 feet is a huge benefit. The glide change will change how the lerk play quite a bit. You really can't use it to scope out an area in tight corridors since your just waiting to be insta gibbed by 1-2 marines if you have to flap constantly.

    You are kidding me...

    Lerks have crazy high hp, it is the most forgiving class to play on kharaa with it being spammable at 30 res, comes out 3-4 minutes (before shotguns in 6v6), clear mines safely, tank for skulks in groups, do crazy high dps.

    I personally think they need half the hp, or make them come out much later. I've seen many very ordinary players become devastating lerks in comp play because how forgiving the class is...

    (my perspective from 6v6 competitive)
  • Sharp-ShooterSharp-Shooter Join Date: 2011-05-11 Member: 98364Members
    current1y wrote: »
    And about the lerk having perma silence. The lerk has rather low HP (in live), being able to silently move around the map and not broadcast your position every 20 feet is a huge benefit. The glide change will change how the lerk play quite a bit. You really can't use it to scope out an area in tight corridors since your just waiting to be insta gibbed by 1-2 marines if you have to flap constantly.

    You are kidding me...

    Lerks have crazy high hp, it is the most forgiving class to play on kharaa with it being spammable at 30 res, comes out 3-4 minutes (before shotguns in 6v6), clear mines safely, tank for skulks in groups, do crazy high dps.

    I personally think they need half the hp, or make them come out much later. I've seen many very ordinary players become devastating lerks in comp play because how forgiving the class is...

    (my perspective from 6v6 competitive)

    you sir, must be the one kidding

    in fact during the beta lerk did have roughly half the HP it current1y does, and guess what? nobody went lerk because it was such a weak and useless 30 res life form. by the time lerks become "spammable at 30 res" marines would have level 2 shotguns and armor to render the lerks useless, at this point of the game marines also stopped purchasing mines aswell.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    edited May 2013
    nobody went lerk because it was such a weak and useless 30 res life form. by the time lerks become "spammable at 30 res" marines would have level 2 shotguns and armor to render the lerks useless, at this point of the game marines also stopped purchasing mines aswell.

    Show me a competitive game in the last 2 weeks where marines have level 2 weapons, shotguns and level 1 armour as lerks come out. Doesn't happen...

    What does happen is teams go double or triple lerk against marines with level 1 armour or phase gates or early shotguns (but none of these combined)

    You cannot possibly compare the game as it is right now to beta. Lerk should be a fragile life form, not the flying melee tank as it is currently played. If bite wasn't so strong (and it is fucking crazy strong) maybe...

    For NS1, it was a calculated risk for a lerk to fly into melee range. It was very effective, but you couldn't fly around spasming a broken hitbox + broken animations to tank bullets for skulk.
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