ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2013
After a few 6 vs 6 games last night in BT and had a pub in ns2c (yes) and have found the following:
Lerks
*Bite dps too low, requiring too long an engagement time especially when med-spammed.
*Spikes not working well due to requiring too much predictable movement that make it incredibly easy for marines to shoot (given recent improvements to rego/fps and lower lerk hp).
*Insufficient hp mid to late game (biomass only gives 1 per level).
*Crop duster spores require predictable close range movement that ruins your battlefield awareness
Trying to combine short range and long range abilities on a fragile platform isn't working too well. Time to make a decision about what it should be. Would prefer an ns1/ns2c style lerk where:
- Umbra-style spores on tier 1. These spores do not require continuous high precision like spikes and is much more suitable for the current survivability and would serve as area denial.
- Higher dps bite. So it can actually kill something if it wants to risk going in close range.
- Umbra on tier 2.
- Spikes on tier 3.
- More HP from biomass.
Upgrades
Carapace is extremely negative for the game because either it is too crap to bother with or good enough that it will be chosen all the time. Please use the biomass system to scale hp and either re-purpose carapace to something else or give it some drawbacks (shudder) to reduce its desirability. For instance it could still give reasonable levels of armor to the lifeform but lower the hp regen speed it gets from hives and crags, requiring a gorge to heal it more quickly.
Lifeform and Weapon Explosion
Still seeing this and it basically renders a lot of victories (ie killing a fade or wiping out a shotgun group) as less meaningful or rewarding. Please decrease marine pres income and decrease the cost of marine commander equipment drops so that the commander can have more impact on the field player load-outs. I wont ask for pres purchases to be removed because I know pub-nubs love 'em and that they will never go, so I would like a system where there is more balanced between tres/pres weapons. Please address.
Life form explosion cannot be dealt with properly thanks to alien tres. If marine weapon drops were to be less common then it would also be necessary to balance the life form explosion with this in mind. Consider using biomass system as a means with which to unlock more life forms or at the very least remove drifter building so that a gorge (read pres expenditure) is mandatory for economy expansion at a reasonable rate. Alternatively, keep drifter building and have gorge heal spray increase the rate of maturation and have the max res income when the res is mature, while a lower amount just when it is just built.
Good input scatter, I also wanted earlier to see carapace dropped and replaced with another ability (like focus, higher damage for higher adren cost) and just have armor/health scale along time with biomass
If MAC AI can't be fixed please give a self destruct button or something, feels like locker room hive drifters all over again, specifically ns_refinery flow control NW entrance lost 3 macs to pathing into the pipes on the roof.
Agree with Scatter on the Lerk (it has had 'role confusion' forever but in earlier builds could survive on its speed and sufficient early hp) and carapace being a horrible upgrade that feels like a leftover of the pre-biomass days. Not that this is super useful feedback since it's just "this stuff is bad, change it!" but there you go.
The Lerk thing has got really bad, it's just insane to have its current spread of abilities on a unit with such low HP that costs res to buy. If it's supposed to mostly harass at range then we need projectile spores back, if it's supposed to be a skulk with wings + utility then it needs more hp, more bite damage and to not have such early access to the team's best ranged attack.
Lerk definitely needs more armor. Maybe drop it's health and add armor? Idk. I don't really play Lerk in the BT mod, but playing against them as marines, I feel like Lerks are basically garbage except for umbra.
I managed to stay alive long enough as Lerk today, but only by playing super-conservatively, always keeping at least 10 meters between marines and myself and only really spraying Umbra at everything all the time. It would probably have been a bit better if the bug was finally fixed where you can't switch between Umbra and Bite with the mousewheel, but in it's current form is it not really all that exiting to play Lerk, especially once Shotguns are out (aka pretty much instantly).
Nanoshield
- God damn this ability is so strong against fades. Medspam + nano on a level 2 armour / level 1 weapons marine with shotgun can solo basically anything. Why does this last 8 seconds, it is so powerful.
Medpacks
- Even with marine medpack pickup cooldown, this is so strong. I didn't even notice the CD when playing commander. Someone mentioned it being 0.3? That doesn't seem enough to me...
Marine Tech
- Marines are able to turtle on 4-5 nodes quite easily, not pushing out until upgrades / high tech has been achieved due to two reasons; lerks are no longer the 4-5 minute semi-fade they used to be & fade balls just simply are not as scary.
- This issue will most likely resolve itself when people figure out how to play the new fade & how lerk fits into a lineup
Fades
- Everyone I've spoken to says fade hp is simply to low, they are getting 2 shot by increased RoF shotguns ect. ect. ect.
- I think this is an issue that will balance itself over time when people play the new fade / lerk more
- When they figure out the new lerk, marine upgrades won't be so high
- When they figure out the new fade, mass fades won't die like they currently do
I dread the day I come against a team effectively utilising 3-4 fade ball + lerk umbra flying in and out with regen. Right now people are still playing fade old style, dieing and crying fade UP.
Alien CHambers
- Out of all the games I've played, crag & veil seem to be getting equal use with shift falling out of favour
New Pres system is massively broken. We just need to hold 4 RTs as aliens without evolving to anything to get a 3-4 minute Fade explosion of the entire team on the field or a 5-minute Onos explosion that the marines simply can't deal with at that point in the game.
Also, Shotguns are now dealing Heavy Damage plus the increase fire rate? Lol, srsly? It's not enough that it one-shots or two-shots the first three lifeforms already? Now it needs to two-shot Carapace Fades as well? What's the point of buffing the weapon that dominates the mid- and lategame already?
And why do you do something like removing start Pres and Pres gain from Commanders? What's the point? This adds absolutely nothing to the game but forces a certain playstyle upon players. You are artificially limiting fun and viable strategies of Commanders this way. I thought the Balance mod was supposed to only feature additions that add more fun, variety or balance to the game. This change doesn't seem like any of it.
I still maintain that the divide between TRes and PRes was designed from the very beginning to separate lifeforms/weapons from the commander for good reason, and that distinction should have remained all along. Remove TRes drops, don't replace them, and give commanders more to spend money on if they need it.
If anything has to go to T3, make it some OP poison bite.. or anything else, really.
I would take a medium range sporing lerk with spikes at T1 over the bite anyhow (or just make it automatically switch to bite when spiking, if close enough, similar to "Onos Smash") lessening the frustration new lerk players get from the role confusion of "skulk with wings", and encouraging a more distant play for the fragile harass/support lifeform.
Also since it seems like we're on the home stretch and the BT is going to get a bigger spotlight soon, I suggest really going over the changelog with a fine tooth comb and preparing it for launch. My suggestions:
- Move the biggest, most important changes to the top in a "Major changes" section which summarizes them for the uninitiated. This should be stuff that everyone needs to be aware of before going in, like the new Skulk movement mechanic, the alien comm needing to build with drifters, the armory no longer healing armor, the changes to alien upgrades/tech, etc.
- Rather than the "Recent" section, document your ongoing changes in the workshop patch notes and maintain the full changelog to always be "ready for release"
- Give the notes a thorough pass for missing changes, deprecated changes(i.e. GL buffs that went live already), etc.
Played some more BT (aliens) and the Skulk feels better now that you don't slide all over the place. It seems strafe keys (A/D) are no longer needed for bhopping as well.
Lerks feel weird to me. I'm not sure what it is, but the movement annoys me.
Fades are still horrendous with their high skill floor and low skill ceiling.
Camo is terrible as you can pretty easily see any cloaked alien on any surface if you at all know what to look for.
Crags heal very slowly. If Crags aren't going to stack then the healing rate needs to be doubled or so. Sitting next to a Crag for an entire minute or more is definitely not what I would consider fun.
I was playing Onos and have to say that being able to run through most buildings/aliens is quite nice. However, I found a bug with Onos when I got stuck on a marine after I stomped him and was on top of him when he got back up; I couldn't move in any direction and only got unstuck by jumping off of him.
The pRes system is annoying as aliens come out earlier but are weaker all game long and cost more when upgraded.
Drifters building is still very silly and goes against what this game is about. People wanted more alien/commander interaction, not less. It feels like a convoluted way to both slow down alien expansion and at the same time give the commander more busywork.
Played some more BT (aliens) and the Skulk feels better now that you don't slide all over the place. It seems strafe keys (A/D) are no longer needed for bhopping as well.
Strafing still improves your speed retention, it's just not mandatory, so similar to how it was until recently. I'm satisfied with it this way, though really I think it'd be better off without the strafing component at all just to remove that bit of complexity from the conversation. Speaking as someone with NS1 bunnyhopping experience, the strafing is so easy to me that it's automatic. It doesn't really add anything, it's just a muscle memory I've acquired which confers an advantage that doesn't really feel earned.
If anything I feel that the strafing thing makes the mechanic too easy for me because it removes the slowdown from turning. Bunnyhopping while just holding forward has an interesting tactical component because you want to follow a route that minimizes unnecessary mouse movements to maintain speed, but that comes at the tradeoff of being more predictable. With the strafing you can just do whatever the heck you want if your fingers are up to it.
I accidentally posted this in another thread thinking it was this one. Below is after a game tonight.
Not a fan of how much macs block your vision. Had a comm use macs to heal us and while that's great having 2 macs with you in battle is annoying as ****. Caused me to die a few times not being able to see ****. Also the drifter building noise might be a bit loud.
The added lift you get while spiking and strafing is very nice though it would be nice if shift did something again. In live it slows you down and can help create a steady platform to spike from. In BT it doesn't do any thing.
Oh and I assume the 3 minute team of fades and 4.5 minute team of onos will be getting changed.... =/
The new pres/tres system is awful. Far too easy to exploit. Aliens could easily get a team of onos in 5-6 minutes.
I think it's better than "weapons/lifeform egg drop" by far. The problem with the current BT implementation is the conversion from Tres is too cheap.
Pres is normally gained at 1:10 ratio against Tres (0.1 Pres and 1 Tres each tick per node). Whereas the ratio is only 1:5 in BT, which actually encourages commanders to convert Tres into Pres.
(PS Onos train would have been too late for the aliens. Endless Shotgun rush would have ended the game way before then. :P)
I think it's better than "weapons/lifeform egg drop" by far. The problem with the current BT implementation is the conversion from Tres is too cheap.
Pres is normally gained at 1:10 ratio against Tres (0.1 Pres and 1 Tres each tick per node). Whereas the ratio is only 1:5 in BT, which actually encourages commanders to convert Tres into Pres.
(PS Onos train would have been too late for the aliens. Endless Shotgun rush would have ended the game way before then. :P)
My bad, might not have worded that clearly. I'm not opposed to the pres to tres conversion system in theory, I actually think it can work better than lifeform drops if done properly. I just think that as it's currently implemented it's too easily exploitable. Great idea, just not implemented well right now.
Im all for a Tres to Pres system (for aliens) as it would help people not feel so demoralized when they lose an expensive lifeform too early, and wont be able to afford another for the rest of the game.
I dont think marines need one as they can recycle their weapons.
Originally when I read the change I thought converting 5tres into 1pres meant you would spend 5tres to give one individual player 1pres. Turns out every field player gets 1pres every time you convert. So the trade is 5tres for 5pres spread amongst players.
So at the start of the game the Alien comm could convert 25 tres and have the whole team Lerk at the beginning of the game.
I think it's going to be changed pretty quickly considering one of the main points of the BT mod to my understanding was extending the early/mid game and pushing the late game back. Currently it's literally Lerks at 0:00, Fades at 3:00 and Onos at 6:00. (Whole team not just individual players).
Yeah, this tres into pres thing is probably the worst thing I've ever seen in this game. pres into tres for aliens could be cool, but tres into pres? wtf?
I'm assuming these latest changes are just spitballing ideas to try and see different ways of solving some of the issues we still have (shotgun still being fairly ubiquitous, must have cara) and aren't likely to stick around for too long in their current form. I really don't like the tres into pres thing for conceptual reasons, even if it's totally balanced it's still going to accelerate the pace of the game significantly.
It would seem reasonable to have a release candidate version of BT in place at some point so that the overall balance can get a decent testing at all levels of play without being thrown off by unexpected and significant changes.
Cara definitely isn't a must have anymore. IMO, regen is far, far superior. Just don't be dumb and try to fight shotgunners when you don't have the upper hand.
Cara is hardly a must-have, if anything regen is more useful at this point.
Honestly I agree with what others have said about cara, it doesn't really work well as an upgrade option. By design it will either be so good that it's the only option, like in the live build, or not good enough to ever be worth choosing, like in the BT. The introduction of Biomass also makes it a little redundant.
Maybe the solution is to have armor scale with Biomass research and replace cara with a different upgrade? Could be cool, just no redemption please, I always thought that mechanic was kind of silly.
Anyone else feeling like they get stuck on skulks? I might just not have the marine movement figured out yet, but I feel like once they close the distance I'm basically screwed. Granted it's much harder for skulks to close the distance with the larger bullet size, but I feel like I almost lose control of my legs once the distance has been closed.
There's no way to balance any kind of pres to tres or tres to pres conversion system while still having it be actually useful. Just bring back tres drops and be done with it.
Also, the shotgun change is a mystery to me. Either it was a bold "fuck it, see what happens" change or Sewlek doesn't understand the problems of this game in the least. I hope for the former, but I just don't understand how anything good could have come out of it...
The old shotgun was very inconsistent, with well aimed hits not doing reliable damage. The new shotgun is very reliable and for you not to notice this change makes me very confident that you "do not understand the problems of this game in the least". Please do not post nonsense.
Comments
Lerks
*Bite dps too low, requiring too long an engagement time especially when med-spammed.
*Spikes not working well due to requiring too much predictable movement that make it incredibly easy for marines to shoot (given recent improvements to rego/fps and lower lerk hp).
*Insufficient hp mid to late game (biomass only gives 1 per level).
*Crop duster spores require predictable close range movement that ruins your battlefield awareness
Trying to combine short range and long range abilities on a fragile platform isn't working too well. Time to make a decision about what it should be. Would prefer an ns1/ns2c style lerk where:
- Umbra-style spores on tier 1. These spores do not require continuous high precision like spikes and is much more suitable for the current survivability and would serve as area denial.
- Higher dps bite. So it can actually kill something if it wants to risk going in close range.
- Umbra on tier 2.
- Spikes on tier 3.
- More HP from biomass.
Upgrades
Carapace is extremely negative for the game because either it is too crap to bother with or good enough that it will be chosen all the time. Please use the biomass system to scale hp and either re-purpose carapace to something else or give it some drawbacks (shudder) to reduce its desirability. For instance it could still give reasonable levels of armor to the lifeform but lower the hp regen speed it gets from hives and crags, requiring a gorge to heal it more quickly.
Lifeform and Weapon Explosion
Still seeing this and it basically renders a lot of victories (ie killing a fade or wiping out a shotgun group) as less meaningful or rewarding. Please decrease marine pres income and decrease the cost of marine commander equipment drops so that the commander can have more impact on the field player load-outs. I wont ask for pres purchases to be removed because I know pub-nubs love 'em and that they will never go, so I would like a system where there is more balanced between tres/pres weapons. Please address.
Life form explosion cannot be dealt with properly thanks to alien tres. If marine weapon drops were to be less common then it would also be necessary to balance the life form explosion with this in mind. Consider using biomass system as a means with which to unlock more life forms or at the very least remove drifter building so that a gorge (read pres expenditure) is mandatory for economy expansion at a reasonable rate. Alternatively, keep drifter building and have gorge heal spray increase the rate of maturation and have the max res income when the res is mature, while a lower amount just when it is just built.
But on the whole it's coming together nicely. If this became vanilla NS2 tomorrow I'd probably be ok with that.
The Lerk thing has got really bad, it's just insane to have its current spread of abilities on a unit with such low HP that costs res to buy. If it's supposed to mostly harass at range then we need projectile spores back, if it's supposed to be a skulk with wings + utility then it needs more hp, more bite damage and to not have such early access to the team's best ranged attack.
Nanoshield
- God damn this ability is so strong against fades. Medspam + nano on a level 2 armour / level 1 weapons marine with shotgun can solo basically anything. Why does this last 8 seconds, it is so powerful.
Medpacks
- Even with marine medpack pickup cooldown, this is so strong. I didn't even notice the CD when playing commander. Someone mentioned it being 0.3? That doesn't seem enough to me...
Marine Tech
- Marines are able to turtle on 4-5 nodes quite easily, not pushing out until upgrades / high tech has been achieved due to two reasons; lerks are no longer the 4-5 minute semi-fade they used to be & fade balls just simply are not as scary.
- This issue will most likely resolve itself when people figure out how to play the new fade & how lerk fits into a lineup
Fades
- Everyone I've spoken to says fade hp is simply to low, they are getting 2 shot by increased RoF shotguns ect. ect. ect.
- I think this is an issue that will balance itself over time when people play the new fade / lerk more
- When they figure out the new lerk, marine upgrades won't be so high
- When they figure out the new fade, mass fades won't die like they currently do
I dread the day I come against a team effectively utilising 3-4 fade ball + lerk umbra flying in and out with regen. Right now people are still playing fade old style, dieing and crying fade UP.
Alien CHambers
- Out of all the games I've played, crag & veil seem to be getting equal use with shift falling out of favour
Also, Shotguns are now dealing Heavy Damage plus the increase fire rate? Lol, srsly? It's not enough that it one-shots or two-shots the first three lifeforms already? Now it needs to two-shot Carapace Fades as well? What's the point of buffing the weapon that dominates the mid- and lategame already?
And why do you do something like removing start Pres and Pres gain from Commanders? What's the point? This adds absolutely nothing to the game but forces a certain playstyle upon players. You are artificially limiting fun and viable strategies of Commanders this way. I thought the Balance mod was supposed to only feature additions that add more fun, variety or balance to the game. This change doesn't seem like any of it.
If anything has to go to T3, make it some OP poison bite.. or anything else, really.
I would take a medium range sporing lerk with spikes at T1 over the bite anyhow (or just make it automatically switch to bite when spiking, if close enough, similar to "Onos Smash") lessening the frustration new lerk players get from the role confusion of "skulk with wings", and encouraging a more distant play for the fragile harass/support lifeform.
- Move the biggest, most important changes to the top in a "Major changes" section which summarizes them for the uninitiated. This should be stuff that everyone needs to be aware of before going in, like the new Skulk movement mechanic, the alien comm needing to build with drifters, the armory no longer healing armor, the changes to alien upgrades/tech, etc.
- Rather than the "Recent" section, document your ongoing changes in the workshop patch notes and maintain the full changelog to always be "ready for release"
- Give the notes a thorough pass for missing changes, deprecated changes(i.e. GL buffs that went live already), etc.
Soon as in this week or soon as in Gorge plushie?
Lerks feel weird to me. I'm not sure what it is, but the movement annoys me.
Fades are still horrendous with their high skill floor and low skill ceiling.
Camo is terrible as you can pretty easily see any cloaked alien on any surface if you at all know what to look for.
Crags heal very slowly. If Crags aren't going to stack then the healing rate needs to be doubled or so. Sitting next to a Crag for an entire minute or more is definitely not what I would consider fun.
I was playing Onos and have to say that being able to run through most buildings/aliens is quite nice. However, I found a bug with Onos when I got stuck on a marine after I stomped him and was on top of him when he got back up; I couldn't move in any direction and only got unstuck by jumping off of him.
The pRes system is annoying as aliens come out earlier but are weaker all game long and cost more when upgraded.
Drifters building is still very silly and goes against what this game is about. People wanted more alien/commander interaction, not less. It feels like a convoluted way to both slow down alien expansion and at the same time give the commander more busywork.
Strafing still improves your speed retention, it's just not mandatory, so similar to how it was until recently. I'm satisfied with it this way, though really I think it'd be better off without the strafing component at all just to remove that bit of complexity from the conversation. Speaking as someone with NS1 bunnyhopping experience, the strafing is so easy to me that it's automatic. It doesn't really add anything, it's just a muscle memory I've acquired which confers an advantage that doesn't really feel earned.
If anything I feel that the strafing thing makes the mechanic too easy for me because it removes the slowdown from turning. Bunnyhopping while just holding forward has an interesting tactical component because you want to follow a route that minimizes unnecessary mouse movements to maintain speed, but that comes at the tradeoff of being more predictable. With the strafing you can just do whatever the heck you want if your fingers are up to it.
Not a fan of how much macs block your vision. Had a comm use macs to heal us and while that's great having 2 macs with you in battle is annoying as ****. Caused me to die a few times not being able to see ****. Also the drifter building noise might be a bit loud.
The added lift you get while spiking and strafing is very nice though it would be nice if shift did something again. In live it slows you down and can help create a steady platform to spike from. In BT it doesn't do any thing.
Oh and I assume the 3 minute team of fades and 4.5 minute team of onos will be getting changed.... =/
Pres is normally gained at 1:10 ratio against Tres (0.1 Pres and 1 Tres each tick per node). Whereas the ratio is only 1:5 in BT, which actually encourages commanders to convert Tres into Pres.
(PS Onos train would have been too late for the aliens. Endless Shotgun rush would have ended the game way before then. :P)
My bad, might not have worded that clearly. I'm not opposed to the pres to tres conversion system in theory, I actually think it can work better than lifeform drops if done properly. I just think that as it's currently implemented it's too easily exploitable. Great idea, just not implemented well right now.
I dont think marines need one as they can recycle their weapons.
Originally when I read the change I thought converting 5tres into 1pres meant you would spend 5tres to give one individual player 1pres. Turns out every field player gets 1pres every time you convert. So the trade is 5tres for 5pres spread amongst players.
So at the start of the game the Alien comm could convert 25 tres and have the whole team Lerk at the beginning of the game.
I think it's going to be changed pretty quickly considering one of the main points of the BT mod to my understanding was extending the early/mid game and pushing the late game back. Currently it's literally Lerks at 0:00, Fades at 3:00 and Onos at 6:00. (Whole team not just individual players).
It would seem reasonable to have a release candidate version of BT in place at some point so that the overall balance can get a decent testing at all levels of play without being thrown off by unexpected and significant changes.
Honestly I agree with what others have said about cara, it doesn't really work well as an upgrade option. By design it will either be so good that it's the only option, like in the live build, or not good enough to ever be worth choosing, like in the BT. The introduction of Biomass also makes it a little redundant.
Maybe the solution is to have armor scale with Biomass research and replace cara with a different upgrade? Could be cool, just no redemption please, I always thought that mechanic was kind of silly.
Also, the shotgun change is a mystery to me. Either it was a bold "fuck it, see what happens" change or Sewlek doesn't understand the problems of this game in the least. I hope for the former, but I just don't understand how anything good could have come out of it...
The shotgun was changed to doing heavy damage, basically two-shotting cara fades at w0.