The Lerk changes are pretty interesting. He didn't mention it in the changelog but Umbra is now hive 2 which is a pretty huge deal. Maybe for the sake of variety and balance Umbra should be switched to be a point blank AoE ability like it was in NS 1.0? From toying with the spores, my main complaint is that I don't like the feel of projectile spores still firing in a constant stream - if it's going to be a projectile it should behave like current Umbra IMO.
it should not be like a projectile, more like "spraying" (so the flyby and spray maneuvers work the same as before), but thats anyway just a visual thing. important for gameplay is that the spore clouds appear a bit in front of the lerk now
Isn't it a projectile though? You click it once and a spore cloud shoots out a moderate distance. It's natural that people will want to use it that way - making it shoot out in front of you is naturally going to make people think they should be treating it like a projectile rather than doing flybys like before. Speaking from experience with the NS1 Lerk which was Bite + Ranged Spores at hive 1, being able to quickly shoot out a cloud and then fly around to bite people is far more useful than dedicating yourself to a spores run.
If what we want though is simply a small forward range improvement on the crop dusters, I think the spores should still spawn below you like today, but just have some forward momentum so you don't have to get as close.
(remove fake choices from the commander and introduce more progression to the alien tech tree).
So basically the feeling is that there truly is no choice in what your currently upgrading as it is!? What tech you upgrade in what order can dramatically impact the game and is not something that will be the same for every map and team. At least in NS1 you just got what came with the hive but in NS2 things changed so that aliens actually had some strategy with their tech order. If you are going to take away that why hold on to the alien commander so much if they are going to play a support class they do not need to be in the hive for that...
Should we remove "fake choices" for the marine's as well. You can only get exo after jp and level 3 armor. All marine tech goes away and you get the same stuff in the same order every time.
You are already taking away the ability to decide not to spend res on global abilities. What if I do not want to get camo to prevent stupid people from trying to get that upgrade when the only thing to attack is their base which has an obs, guess what you do not need or want camo so I am going to make it easy by not researching it.
What is fake is the illusion of choice that your now trying to replace the existing choices with. While the ability to select what hive holds the most bio all your really doing is mitigating risk and preparing for your destruction. Great plan there, we remove the ability to select choices that can bring you victory and instead give you the option to manage how you lose your upgrades! Is the commander an insurance company now!?
Come on this is like if my investment broker came to me and said "oh we got a great new feature instead of being able to select your investment strategy we will choose for you but you can still decide what order you will lose your money in". So now I have lost the ability to control how quickly I can gain value on investment in exchange for control over the order I lose my investment in!?
The current ability for aliens upgrading has been great b/c it gives the alien com the same thing the marine com does witch is fine control over the tech progression of the game.
What is fake is the illusion of choice that your now trying to replace the existing choices with. While the ability to select what hive holds the most bio all your really doing is mitigating risk and preparing for your destruction. Great plan there, we remove the ability to select choices that can bring you victory and instead give you the option to manage how you lose your upgrades! Is the commander an insurance company now!?
Come on this is like if my investment broker came to me and said "oh we got a great new feature instead of being able to select your investment strategy we will choose for you but you can still decide what order you will lose your money in". So now I have lost the ability to control how quickly I can gain value on investment in exchange for control over the order I lose my investment in!?
Could give you the "asymmetry" argument right in your face right now.
Technically you are still choosing a tech. Just that the cost for higher upgrades is now much higher and includes lesser upgrades as a side effect. And the cost may vary depending on what risk you are willing to take and how much territory you hold. If you are locked down on a single Hive, you can still get all the tech but it will cost you a lot more res than with three Hives. You can also play safe by gathering all res in one Hive, but that will cost you more as well.
You trade risk and territory control for discounts.
And do you seriously believe there was a real choice in the upgrade path before? Tier 3 upgrades were already depending on tier 2 upgrades. In the end you would end up researching stuff in roughly the same order anyway: Leap or Blink have priority, then preferably Bile Bomb and at last some Spores. Umbra and Stomp come on three Hives because by that time you have enough res for both upgrades at the same time anyway. Xenocide and Vortex often get neglected and the game is often over before they even get finished researching.
I take the addition of strategies that work with a different number of Hives over the fake choice of pressing button A before B any time. The fact that this guarantees certain updates to be researched that might otherwise get neglected by commanders (I am honestly tired of arrogant alien commanders who think that their Lerks will do fine without Spores even though they are swimming in res and it would just cost 20 res to enhance them a lot for combat against multiple enemies).
Same as it's arrogant to deny your team a trait just because you think it's not worth it or don't want the team to use it. Do I want Skulks to not walk around slowly with cloak all the time? Sure, but then I tell them that and don't deny players 50% of the tech path I just chose and which some of them could use really well in combat. And especially won't I deny Gorges an upgrade that could save their life after the rest of the team got killed just because I don't want Skulks to use it.
Regeneration is extremely underestimated by commanders as well. Especially for Skulks and Lerks is the added harassing bonus much higher than the little effect that Carapace has on them. Just a few seconds of mid-combat regeneration (by leaping into safety around a corner or at the ceiling) can achieve the same that Carapace would have added here.
Once again your primary basis for the change is based around the concept that people do not know what they are doing. This is like saying that we should change how the knight moves in chess b/c noobs do not understand how to use the piece correctly and ignore it or that they should be required to use the knight in order to use the queen.
Logically changes should be made under the assumption of compliance. If we are trying to make the game so that the strategy can not get fucked up by a noob then the strategy should be eliminated along with the commander. Your arguments are more in support of the elimination of the idea of a commander in general than anything else.
I do not know what sort of cookie cutter box your playing this game in but the dynamics of the current system in this game are much more complex than you give them credit for.
No, my primary basis for the change is that this change introduces more important choices than what the current upgrade system offers. Something that depends more on the pace of the respective match than a premade formula that works in pretty much every game.
The lifeform upgrade choice is none-existent to me. I've probably commanded a few hundred matches as alien commander already and never had a situation that deviated from "Drop Hive, drop stuff that helps to build the Hive, wait for Hive to finish, buy tech tree upgrade in new Hive, buy lifeform upgrade in other Hive, wait for more res, keep buying all lifeform upgrades and new trait as soon as res is available."
It's a no-brainer right now and definitely not what makes the khammander important or fun to play.
And noobs are usually not the ones who mess a strategy up. It's the know-it-all guys who are the problematic ones. But then again, to me this is just a side effect of the change, not the sole purpose.
So what you're saying is that all the abilities should be balanced to eliminate the cookie cutter build order, right? Let's hear it then, how do you do that?
No he is stating that we should have a mandated cookie cutter build order to replace the existing so called cookie cutter build order where instead of selecting what we are upgrading we instead select what structure (ie hive) the upgrade is tied to...
There's a couple key considerations here - as with the scalable upgrades, it benefits players to have the choice of upgrade, which while reducing the commanders choices, increases the players choices (there's potentially 11 field players, only 1 comm). The same holds true for higher tier abilities, many players never get their higher abilities because the comm doesnt research them, simply because they are not as necessary as other things (which can be more effective). All abilities should be improved to be useful, however forcing players to wait till endgame for even their tier 2 ability is just not nearly as fun for that player, which potentially is at a 11 to 1 ratio in games. Some RTS elements need to be sacrificed for the field players, honestly NS2 commanders are more about tatics and coordinating than traditional RTS research.
However, we are not really discussing the speed at which upgrades come if that was the issue we would revert to ns1 style where they come with the hive.
In the option presented the upgrades come at about the same rate overall as they do now or possibly slower for some. If you goal is to give it to the players and not the commander than once again I point that these changes are better served by removing the commander and doing as you say. Returning aliens back to exactly as in NS1 where the players directly control everything.
Aliens do not take the same sort of over reaching command and control that the marines do. They typically work together in small groups. The commander largely supports them and manages resources and identifies what tech will be most important to obtain when in order to secure victory.
No he is stating that we should have a mandated cookie cutter build order to replace the existing so called cookie cutter build order where instead of selecting what we are upgrading we instead select what structure (ie hive) the upgrade is tied to...
I was talking to you. You said earlier that the existence of a cookie cutter ability order was a balance problem, rather than a problem with the free choice system, and I'm curious how you would fix it. i.e. how do you make it so that the alien commander is just as likely to go Spores first or Blink first as he is to go Leap first.
Oh I think you misunderstood what my point was which was that if we accept that there is a cookie cutter problem than that problem is a balance issue.
However, I am trying to say that there is not a cookie cutter problem as I am just as likely to go blink before leap. What I do is based on the conditions on the field not some ill fated predefined plan that is useless once the game actually starts. The real game play in this game does not play nicely for those who do not adapt. Unless you enjoy commanding stacked teams where yes I suppose that that point your decisions do not matter.
Would I rather give blink to the 3 players who can kill shit and are going fad or give leap to the noobs? In another game we have mostly good players so now leap is perhaps more valuable. Another game we have most of the team as learks and the 2nd hive is about to finish, I will be going spores right away.
Well, in the current build do you get Leap and Spores from the first Biomass upgrade that you can purchase, i.e. 30 res on Hive 1 or automatically with Hive 2. Blink is right up next, Bile Bomb needs 4 Biomass to keep a 2 Hive requirement at the moment. Those are the most basic abilities. You are not only getting the stuff earlier than usual, they are also overall reduced in price if you look at the combined package. Compared to the current system, you are even more likely to get Leap and Spores with this system and you can then get Blink for the same price and at the same point as in the current system, or earlier for more res. You are making it look like this order would artificially cripple your team while the team can only benefit since the most important upgrades are given already.
your suggestion of a 'choice' to put all upgrades into a single hive is making it luck-based and placing an even greater dependancy on a hive.
surely a better idea would be to remove some of the already monumental hive dependancy, at least being able to get your upgrades back for free after constructing a new hive.
base-trading should be possible. that would be a sign that the level of resilience for both teams is in a good place.
edit: time to amputate the gangrene biomass tangent into a new thread?
What about that would be "luck"? Whether or not the marines surprise you at that Hive?
It's still the commander's choice where to put the upgrades (I wouldn't really want to put them into the Deposit Hive on Mineshaft because of the possibility to get ARCed from Central) and whether he wants to go for such a risky strategy in order to get upgrades early or wait until they establish a hold. It *can* make one Hive really important to hold but make other Hives expendable.
If aliens could have upgrades (or here more fittingly Biomass) redundantly in other Hives, it would make base trades less risky (though at the cost of more res up front). It's not like it's all that cheap for marines to trade bases either.
The pendant to such an important Hive would probably be 15 res CC, 2x 15 res IPs, 30 res AA, 15 res Obs, 15 res PG and 40 res Proto. 145 res if they lose the entire main base.
What about that would be "luck"? Whether or not the marines surprise you at that Hive?
It's still the commander's choice where to put the upgrades (I wouldn't really want to put them into the Deposit Hive on Mineshaft because of the possibility to get ARCed from Central) and whether he wants to go for such a risky strategy in order to get upgrades early or wait until they establish a hold. It *can* make one Hive really important to hold but make other Hives expendable.
If aliens could have upgrades (or here more fittingly Biomass) redundantly in other Hives, it would make base trades less risky (though at the cost of more res up front). It's not like it's all that cheap for marines to trade bases either.
The pendant to such an important Hive would probably be 15 res CC, 2x 15 res IPs, 30 res AA, 15 res Obs, 15 res PG and 40 res Proto. 145 res if they lose the entire main base.
In the end it's all up to the devs anyway.
it's commanders choice, you can either put all of your eggs in one basket or you can choose the old method of keeping some eggs, but putting some eggs on the floor of a mosh pit, and some more eggs in your airline hold baggage etc.
both of those options are crap.
also, if we're gonna get pedantic then remember that marines can recoup up to 75% of that cost through recycle. it's also their commander's prerogative to place all buildings at a single tech location or spread it out, they already obide by your suggestion and what does it add to the game?
the beauty of the ns2 fundamentals is that they support dynamic games where you can trade bases, and recover from dire situations with superior strategy etc... but the reality of the live build is that ns2 is severely limited to getting one step ahead and then forcing the other team to take more and more risks to get back into the game (before the res advantage becomes insurmountable).
Regarding the all your biomass in one hive issue:
Why not allow the khamm to move biomass from hive to hive? Something like uses 20 res, and uses both hives for 90 seconds? That way you would be able to to protect your biomass to some extent in case you anticipate an ARC rush, but at the same time you can't save all of the 4 researched biomass if the hive does get rushed.
Regarding biomass as a whole:
No, it's not a perfect system, but I think that it really does add more depth to alien gameplay while removing some arbitrary numbers. The idea that you need 2 or 3 hives to reach a certain ability just feels awkward and punishing to the alien team, biomass alleviates this, and allows more flexibility in the upgrade path. And, no, it doesn't allow the khamm to be flexible in choosing which upgrades to get, but to me it feels like it allows to khamm to be more flexible with how res is spent.
What about that would be "luck"? Whether or not the marines surprise you at that Hive?
It's still the commander's choice where to put the upgrades (I wouldn't really want to put them into the Deposit Hive on Mineshaft because of the possibility to get ARCed from Central) and whether he wants to go for such a risky strategy in order to get upgrades early or wait until they establish a hold. It *can* make one Hive really important to hold but make other Hives expendable.
If aliens could have upgrades (or here more fittingly Biomass) redundantly in other Hives, it would make base trades less risky (though at the cost of more res up front). It's not like it's all that cheap for marines to trade bases either.
The pendant to such an important Hive would probably be 15 res CC, 2x 15 res IPs, 30 res AA, 15 res Obs, 15 res PG and 40 res Proto. 145 res if they lose the entire main base.
In the end it's all up to the devs anyway.
it's commanders choice, you can either put all of your eggs in one basket or you can choose the old method of keeping some eggs, but putting some eggs on the floor of a mosh pit, and some more eggs in your airline hold baggage etc.
both of those options are crap.
also, if we're gonna get pedantic then remember that marines can recoup up to 75% of that cost through recycle. it's also their commander's prerogative to place all buildings at a single tech location or spread it out, they already obide by your suggestion and what does it add to the game?
the beauty of the ns2 fundamentals is that they support dynamic games where you can trade bases, and recover from dire situations with superior strategy etc... but the reality of the live build is that ns2 is severely limited to getting one step ahead and then forcing the other team to take more and more risks to get back into the game (before the res advantage becomes insurmountable).
Forget the phase gate they can instantly teleport their entire team forcefully to defend that shit! lol
Well, in the current build do you get Leap and Spores from the first Biomass upgrade that you can purchase, i.e. 30 res on Hive 1 or automatically with Hive 2. Blink is right up next, Bile Bomb needs 4 Biomass to keep a 2 Hive requirement at the moment. Those are the most basic abilities. You are not only getting the stuff earlier than usual, they are also overall reduced in price if you look at the combined package. Compared to the current system, you are even more likely to get Leap and Spores with this system and you can then get Blink for the same price and at the same point as in the current system, or earlier for more res. You are making it look like this order would artificially cripple your team while the team can only benefit since the most important upgrades are given already.
With these drastic reductions in cost I can understand better where you are coming from; however, you could get the same results by reducing the prices of what we have now and adjusting research times for that matter...
If the goal is to open up the viability of hive 1 and hive 3 play, why don't we simply alter the current system in a way which allows for that? Like I said earlier, the idea behind the biomass system is great, but forcing the aliens into exactly the same tech progression every game is going to get boring fast and also does away with some of the flexibility that the current system offers. And while I agree alien abilities are largely 'fake choices' to make, there IS sometimes a case to be made for picking say bilebomb over leap or blink over everything else depending on the situation in the game, and how long it took your team to get that second hive up.
What if instead of biomass you simply moved a number of alien abilities to 1 hive, BUT at a greater cost. So for example at 1 hive leap, spores and bilebomb would be available but at a drastically increased cost. Then at 2 hives the price would be lower and at 3 it might be even lower.
It would look like this
(NA means it is not available at that hive)
Cost at Number of Hives: 1 /2 /3
---
Gorge Tunnel: 30/30/20
Leap: 50/30/20
Bilebomb: 50/30/30
Spores: 40/30/20
Blink: NA/30/30
Umbra: NA/40/30
Xenocide: NA/40/30
Vortex: NA/40/30
Stomp: NA/50/30
Costs are just an example, but you get the idea. Basically with this system hive 1 play would get a lot more meaning where as hive 3 is arguably going to remain important as a strategic choice, since rushing it could offer you significantly cheaper tech. (Price difference between 2 and 3 should probably be a bit bigger even) As such, it accomplishes pretty much the same objectives as the biomass system, while being a lot simpler and still allowing a level of customisation. (I.e you may want to rush bilebomb at hive 1, etc)
I also think a same system could be applied to commander t.res lifeform drops, provided you don't want to entirely do away with those. The goal here is adding depth to the game, and differentiating costs based on tier could do just that, while making 1 hive alien play more competitive (bigger comeback potential) and 3 hive alien play more desirable.
If welders would be needed to repair armour I think I would be buying welders and mines only in pub play unless I'm 100% sure that there is someone in the team that knows how to weld. So chances are that you will mostly see LMG marines running with 100 hp for the whole duration of the game because it's not worth to buy better gear in lousy team.
edit: didn't notice that own thread had been opened for this discussion 8).
Skulk movement should have faster acceleration. Gaining more speed in less amount of jumps. If you need to close distance on a marine, and you need to do it fast, you shouldn't have to start your jumping from 1-2 rooms away just to have some speed build up.
With the low amount of air control the skulks have in this mod, if a marine just strafe jumps out of the way you're basically back to zero speed and in big open rooms this would result in disaster for the skulk.
Since we need the predictable movement pattern of skulks when they are moving fast, and need some kind of air controll, I don't really see that anything else than the movement pattern of bunnyjumping working.
Skulk movement should have faster acceleration. Gaining more speed in less amount of jumps. If you need to close distance on a marine, and you need to do it fast, you shouldn't have to start your jumping from 1-2 rooms away just to have some speed build up.
With the low amount of air control the skulks have in this mod, if a marine just strafe jumps out of the way you're basically back to zero speed and in big open rooms this would result in disaster for the skulk.
Since we need the predictable movement pattern of skulks when they are moving fast, and need some kind of air controll, I don't really see that anything else than the movement pattern of bunnyjumping working.
Or maybe I'm not using the movement properly.
you can use leap to assist acceleration with a stationary start. maybe leap could also be tweaked to give a little more air control.
what you're saying is true, it doesn't make much difference to the isolated marine versus skulk encounters. however, skulk getting from A to B much faster could have a significant effect on setting up coordinated attacks. not to mention the first skulk into the room could just bunny hop around with no intention of doing the predictable and heading to the marine - to draw bullets towards a more difficult target.
If the goal is to open up the viability of hive 1 and hive 3 play, why don't we simply alter the current system in a way which allows for that? Like I said earlier, the idea behind the biomass system is great, but forcing the aliens into exactly the same tech progression every game is going to get boring fast and also does away with some of the flexibility that the current system offers. And while I agree alien abilities are largely 'fake choices' to make, there IS sometimes a case to be made for picking say bilebomb over leap or blink over everything else depending on the situation in the game, and how long it took your team to get that second hive up.
What if instead of biomass you simply moved a number of alien abilities to 1 hive, BUT at a greater cost. So for example at 1 hive leap, spores and bilebomb would be available but at a drastically increased cost. Then at 2 hives the price would be lower and at 3 it might be even lower.
It would look like this
(NA means it is not available at that hive)
Cost at Number of Hives: 1 /2 /3
---
Gorge Tunnel: 30/30/20
Leap: 50/30/20
Bilebomb: 50/30/30
Spores: 40/30/20
Blink: NA/30/30
Umbra: NA/40/30
Xenocide: NA/40/30
Vortex: NA/40/30
Stomp: NA/50/30
Costs are just an example, but you get the idea. Basically with this system hive 1 play would get a lot more meaning where as hive 3 is arguably going to remain important as a strategic choice, since rushing it could offer you significantly cheaper tech. (Price difference between 2 and 3 should probably be a bit bigger even) As such, it accomplishes pretty much the same objectives as the biomass system, while being a lot simpler and still allowing a level of customisation. (I.e you may want to rush bilebomb at hive 1, etc)
I also think a same system could be applied to commander t.res lifeform drops, provided you don't want to entirely do away with those. The goal here is adding depth to the game, and differentiating costs based on tier could do just that, while making 1 hive alien play more competitive (bigger comeback potential) and 3 hive alien play more desirable.
would you keep leap if you buy it at 2 hives for 30 tres, then lose your second hive?
i do like that idea, but in the current balance mod the biomass system seems to increase lifeform hp (at least indicated in the change log, i haven't been able to find a server in a couple of days), which is 'advantage biomass'. :P
another experimental change is that spores are default lerk and spikes were buffed and moved to level 6-7(?) biomass level. imo this change was wonderful, especially as spore deployment method is ranged, so the lerk can 'block' corridors etc without playing shotgun roulette.
would you keep leap if you buy it at 2 hives for 30 tres, then lose your second hive?
If you buy leap at 2 hives and go back to 1, you could just be charged the surplus 10 or 20 t.res to make it available at 1 hive too. I.e you wouldn't have to unlock it completely again for the full cost, since you already paid for a big portion of the cost at 2 hives. I think that would by far be the most straight forward approach anyway.
i do like that idea, but in the current balance mod the biomass system seems to increase lifeform hp (at least indicated in the change log, i haven't been able to find a server in a couple of days), which is 'advantage biomass'
Lifeform scaling is something UWE should have long done based on number of hives, and it's something they did in NS 1 as well. It should work fine even without a biomass system. With lifeform scaling, they should even bring back onos t.res drops on 2 hives, or all lifeforms at 1 hive, since they'd be weaker on lower amounts of hive. This would then make for some very interesting strategic play and increase the amount of sinks for the alien commander. + Increase the comeback potential significantly.
If the goal is to open up the viability of hive 1 and hive 3 play, why don't we simply alter the current system in a way which allows for that? Like I said earlier, the idea behind the biomass system is great, but forcing the aliens into exactly the same tech progression every game is going to get boring fast and also does away with some of the flexibility that the current system offers. And while I agree alien abilities are largely 'fake choices' to make, there IS sometimes a case to be made for picking say bilebomb over leap or blink over everything else depending on the situation in the game, and how long it took your team to get that second hive up.
What if instead of biomass you simply moved a number of alien abilities to 1 hive, BUT at a greater cost. So for example at 1 hive leap, spores and bilebomb would be available but at a drastically increased cost. Then at 2 hives the price would be lower and at 3 it might be even lower.
It would look like this
(NA means it is not available at that hive)
Cost at Number of Hives: 1 /2 /3
---
Gorge Tunnel: 30/30/20
Leap: 50/30/20
Bilebomb: 50/30/30
Spores: 40/30/20
Blink: NA/30/30
Umbra: NA/40/30
Xenocide: NA/40/30
Vortex: NA/40/30
Stomp: NA/50/30
Costs are just an example, but you get the idea. Basically with this system hive 1 play would get a lot more meaning where as hive 3 is arguably going to remain important as a strategic choice, since rushing it could offer you significantly cheaper tech. (Price difference between 2 and 3 should probably be a bit bigger even) As such, it accomplishes pretty much the same objectives as the biomass system, while being a lot simpler and still allowing a level of customisation. (I.e you may want to rush bilebomb at hive 1, etc)
I also think a same system could be applied to commander t.res lifeform drops, provided you don't want to entirely do away with those. The goal here is adding depth to the game, and differentiating costs based on tier could do just that, while making 1 hive alien play more competitive (bigger comeback potential) and 3 hive alien play more desirable.
One thing to note about this is you need to create a tradeoff. IMO leap on hive one should cost more than or equal to hive 2 research + the hive cost. As you have it leap on hive 1 costs 50 and a second hive + leap at hive 2 costs 70. Being able to rush leap at hive 1 cheaper and faster than using 2 hives is problematic especially with no other tech gating on that ability.
Yea the costs were just to illustrate how the system could work, I didn't put any real thought into it to be honest. Though keep in mind that second hive does more than just grant you cheaper leap, so comparing costs like that isn't entirely accurate either. Anyway, I realise in a system like the one I proposed, you might still have some lifeforms go without certain abilities like they do in NS 2 today, but at least because of price scaling downwards as the amount of hives increases there is going to be a bigger incentive for alien khamms to eventually pick not yet researched early tier abilities.
I think at any rate, it's a small price to pay for maintaining ability unlock flexibility, which is much more detrimental to alien gameplay. (I.e having to get leap first when marines are outside your hive with ARCs or phase tech which SCREAMS for bilebomb first unlock is just frustrating)
Lifeform scaling is something UWE should have long done based on number of hives, and it's something they did in NS 1 as well. It should work fine even without a biomass system. With lifeform scaling, they should even bring back onos t.res drops on 2 hives, or all lifeforms at 1 hive, since they'd be weaker on lower amounts of hive. This would then make for some very interesting strategic play and increase the amount of sinks for the alien commander. + Increase the comeback potential significantly.
thats a nice idea, im a bit scared of the consequences (1 hive onos...) but i would be very curious to see the result! the alien commander can now again chose which ability to research (bio mass is now a requirement for abilities, though you can skip leap/bilebomb to allow for more strategies). the new HP scaling should make it fairly easy to balance the risk/reward tradeoff for t.res lifeforms, probably worth a shot. worst case is i need to revert it, best case more possible strategies for aliens.
Sounds good. But one thing. Could you consider to take leap out of the default ability-tree and put it in some kind of an own researchable. While BileBomb, Spores and Blink are researched in different orders often, nobody wouldn't go Leap first. It is simply an upgrade for the default alien and this way much more important than any special-lifeform upgrade can be.
A next step could be to add other stuff to this Skulk-Tech-Tree. Like a RFK-researchable or scalability for skulks to increase their late game usefulness, without hampering with the health of the other life forms. Just some ideas.
Sounds good. But one thing. Could you consider to take leap out of the default ability-tree and put it in some kind of an own researchable. While BileBomb, Spores and Blink are researched in different orders often, nobody wouldn't go Leap first. It is simply an upgrade for the default alien and this way much more important than any special-lifeform upgrade can be.
A next step could be to add other stuff to this Skulk-Tech-Tree. Like a RFK-researchable or scalability for skulks to increase their late game usefulness, without hampering with the health of the other life forms. Just some ideas.
or better yet, if we're in the mood to change default/unlock abilities... switch leap with parasite, and make parasite better :P
If the goal is to open up the viability of hive 1 and hive 3 play, why don't we simply alter the current system in a way which allows for that? Like I said earlier, the idea behind the biomass system is great, but forcing the aliens into exactly the same tech progression every game is going to get boring fast and also does away with some of the flexibility that the current system offers. And while I agree alien abilities are largely 'fake choices' to make, there IS sometimes a case to be made for picking say bilebomb over leap or blink over everything else depending on the situation in the game, and how long it took your team to get that second hive up.
What if instead of biomass you simply moved a number of alien abilities to 1 hive, BUT at a greater cost. So for example at 1 hive leap, spores and bilebomb would be available but at a drastically increased cost. Then at 2 hives the price would be lower and at 3 it might be even lower.
It would look like this
(NA means it is not available at that hive)
Cost at Number of Hives: 1 /2 /3
---
Gorge Tunnel: 30/30/20
Leap: 50/30/20
Bilebomb: 50/30/30
Spores: 40/30/20
Blink: NA/30/30
Umbra: NA/40/30
Xenocide: NA/40/30
Vortex: NA/40/30
Stomp: NA/50/30
Costs are just an example, but you get the idea. Basically with this system hive 1 play would get a lot more meaning where as hive 3 is arguably going to remain important as a strategic choice, since rushing it could offer you significantly cheaper tech. (Price difference between 2 and 3 should probably be a bit bigger even) As such, it accomplishes pretty much the same objectives as the biomass system, while being a lot simpler and still allowing a level of customisation. (I.e you may want to rush bilebomb at hive 1, etc)
I also think a same system could be applied to commander t.res lifeform drops, provided you don't want to entirely do away with those. The goal here is adding depth to the game, and differentiating costs based on tier could do just that, while making 1 hive alien play more competitive (bigger comeback potential) and 3 hive alien play more desirable.
Very interesting idea and also avoids the base trade problem as you can get them back/keep some more easily.
Comments
Isn't it a projectile though? You click it once and a spore cloud shoots out a moderate distance. It's natural that people will want to use it that way - making it shoot out in front of you is naturally going to make people think they should be treating it like a projectile rather than doing flybys like before. Speaking from experience with the NS1 Lerk which was Bite + Ranged Spores at hive 1, being able to quickly shoot out a cloud and then fly around to bite people is far more useful than dedicating yourself to a spores run.
If what we want though is simply a small forward range improvement on the crop dusters, I think the spores should still spawn below you like today, but just have some forward momentum so you don't have to get as close.
So basically the feeling is that there truly is no choice in what your currently upgrading as it is!? What tech you upgrade in what order can dramatically impact the game and is not something that will be the same for every map and team. At least in NS1 you just got what came with the hive but in NS2 things changed so that aliens actually had some strategy with their tech order. If you are going to take away that why hold on to the alien commander so much if they are going to play a support class they do not need to be in the hive for that...
Should we remove "fake choices" for the marine's as well. You can only get exo after jp and level 3 armor. All marine tech goes away and you get the same stuff in the same order every time.
You are already taking away the ability to decide not to spend res on global abilities. What if I do not want to get camo to prevent stupid people from trying to get that upgrade when the only thing to attack is their base which has an obs, guess what you do not need or want camo so I am going to make it easy by not researching it.
What is fake is the illusion of choice that your now trying to replace the existing choices with. While the ability to select what hive holds the most bio all your really doing is mitigating risk and preparing for your destruction. Great plan there, we remove the ability to select choices that can bring you victory and instead give you the option to manage how you lose your upgrades! Is the commander an insurance company now!?
Come on this is like if my investment broker came to me and said "oh we got a great new feature instead of being able to select your investment strategy we will choose for you but you can still decide what order you will lose your money in". So now I have lost the ability to control how quickly I can gain value on investment in exchange for control over the order I lose my investment in!?
The current ability for aliens upgrading has been great b/c it gives the alien com the same thing the marine com does witch is fine control over the tech progression of the game.
Could give you the "asymmetry" argument right in your face right now.
Technically you are still choosing a tech. Just that the cost for higher upgrades is now much higher and includes lesser upgrades as a side effect. And the cost may vary depending on what risk you are willing to take and how much territory you hold. If you are locked down on a single Hive, you can still get all the tech but it will cost you a lot more res than with three Hives. You can also play safe by gathering all res in one Hive, but that will cost you more as well.
You trade risk and territory control for discounts.
And do you seriously believe there was a real choice in the upgrade path before? Tier 3 upgrades were already depending on tier 2 upgrades. In the end you would end up researching stuff in roughly the same order anyway: Leap or Blink have priority, then preferably Bile Bomb and at last some Spores. Umbra and Stomp come on three Hives because by that time you have enough res for both upgrades at the same time anyway. Xenocide and Vortex often get neglected and the game is often over before they even get finished researching.
I take the addition of strategies that work with a different number of Hives over the fake choice of pressing button A before B any time. The fact that this guarantees certain updates to be researched that might otherwise get neglected by commanders (I am honestly tired of arrogant alien commanders who think that their Lerks will do fine without Spores even though they are swimming in res and it would just cost 20 res to enhance them a lot for combat against multiple enemies).
Same as it's arrogant to deny your team a trait just because you think it's not worth it or don't want the team to use it. Do I want Skulks to not walk around slowly with cloak all the time? Sure, but then I tell them that and don't deny players 50% of the tech path I just chose and which some of them could use really well in combat. And especially won't I deny Gorges an upgrade that could save their life after the rest of the team got killed just because I don't want Skulks to use it.
Regeneration is extremely underestimated by commanders as well. Especially for Skulks and Lerks is the added harassing bonus much higher than the little effect that Carapace has on them. Just a few seconds of mid-combat regeneration (by leaping into safety around a corner or at the ceiling) can achieve the same that Carapace would have added here.
Logically changes should be made under the assumption of compliance. If we are trying to make the game so that the strategy can not get fucked up by a noob then the strategy should be eliminated along with the commander. Your arguments are more in support of the elimination of the idea of a commander in general than anything else.
I do not know what sort of cookie cutter box your playing this game in but the dynamics of the current system in this game are much more complex than you give them credit for.
The lifeform upgrade choice is none-existent to me. I've probably commanded a few hundred matches as alien commander already and never had a situation that deviated from "Drop Hive, drop stuff that helps to build the Hive, wait for Hive to finish, buy tech tree upgrade in new Hive, buy lifeform upgrade in other Hive, wait for more res, keep buying all lifeform upgrades and new trait as soon as res is available."
It's a no-brainer right now and definitely not what makes the khammander important or fun to play.
And noobs are usually not the ones who mess a strategy up. It's the know-it-all guys who are the problematic ones. But then again, to me this is just a side effect of the change, not the sole purpose.
In the option presented the upgrades come at about the same rate overall as they do now or possibly slower for some. If you goal is to give it to the players and not the commander than once again I point that these changes are better served by removing the commander and doing as you say. Returning aliens back to exactly as in NS1 where the players directly control everything.
Aliens do not take the same sort of over reaching command and control that the marines do. They typically work together in small groups. The commander largely supports them and manages resources and identifies what tech will be most important to obtain when in order to secure victory.
I was talking to you. You said earlier that the existence of a cookie cutter ability order was a balance problem, rather than a problem with the free choice system, and I'm curious how you would fix it. i.e. how do you make it so that the alien commander is just as likely to go Spores first or Blink first as he is to go Leap first.
However, I am trying to say that there is not a cookie cutter problem as I am just as likely to go blink before leap. What I do is based on the conditions on the field not some ill fated predefined plan that is useless once the game actually starts. The real game play in this game does not play nicely for those who do not adapt. Unless you enjoy commanding stacked teams where yes I suppose that that point your decisions do not matter.
Would I rather give blink to the 3 players who can kill shit and are going fad or give leap to the noobs? In another game we have mostly good players so now leap is perhaps more valuable. Another game we have most of the team as learks and the 2nd hive is about to finish, I will be going spores right away.
your suggestion of a 'choice' to put all upgrades into a single hive is making it luck-based and placing an even greater dependancy on a hive.
surely a better idea would be to remove some of the already monumental hive dependancy, at least being able to get your upgrades back for free after constructing a new hive.
base-trading should be possible. that would be a sign that the level of resilience for both teams is in a good place.
edit: time to amputate the gangrene biomass tangent into a new thread?
It's still the commander's choice where to put the upgrades (I wouldn't really want to put them into the Deposit Hive on Mineshaft because of the possibility to get ARCed from Central) and whether he wants to go for such a risky strategy in order to get upgrades early or wait until they establish a hold. It *can* make one Hive really important to hold but make other Hives expendable.
If aliens could have upgrades (or here more fittingly Biomass) redundantly in other Hives, it would make base trades less risky (though at the cost of more res up front). It's not like it's all that cheap for marines to trade bases either.
The pendant to such an important Hive would probably be 15 res CC, 2x 15 res IPs, 30 res AA, 15 res Obs, 15 res PG and 40 res Proto. 145 res if they lose the entire main base.
In the end it's all up to the devs anyway.
it's commanders choice, you can either put all of your eggs in one basket or you can choose the old method of keeping some eggs, but putting some eggs on the floor of a mosh pit, and some more eggs in your airline hold baggage etc.
both of those options are crap.
also, if we're gonna get pedantic then remember that marines can recoup up to 75% of that cost through recycle. it's also their commander's prerogative to place all buildings at a single tech location or spread it out, they already obide by your suggestion and what does it add to the game?
the beauty of the ns2 fundamentals is that they support dynamic games where you can trade bases, and recover from dire situations with superior strategy etc... but the reality of the live build is that ns2 is severely limited to getting one step ahead and then forcing the other team to take more and more risks to get back into the game (before the res advantage becomes insurmountable).
Why not allow the khamm to move biomass from hive to hive? Something like uses 20 res, and uses both hives for 90 seconds? That way you would be able to to protect your biomass to some extent in case you anticipate an ARC rush, but at the same time you can't save all of the 4 researched biomass if the hive does get rushed.
Regarding biomass as a whole:
No, it's not a perfect system, but I think that it really does add more depth to alien gameplay while removing some arbitrary numbers. The idea that you need 2 or 3 hives to reach a certain ability just feels awkward and punishing to the alien team, biomass alleviates this, and allows more flexibility in the upgrade path. And, no, it doesn't allow the khamm to be flexible in choosing which upgrades to get, but to me it feels like it allows to khamm to be more flexible with how res is spent.
Forget the phase gate they can instantly teleport their entire team forcefully to defend that shit! lol
With these drastic reductions in cost I can understand better where you are coming from; however, you could get the same results by reducing the prices of what we have now and adjusting research times for that matter...
If the goal is to open up the viability of hive 1 and hive 3 play, why don't we simply alter the current system in a way which allows for that? Like I said earlier, the idea behind the biomass system is great, but forcing the aliens into exactly the same tech progression every game is going to get boring fast and also does away with some of the flexibility that the current system offers. And while I agree alien abilities are largely 'fake choices' to make, there IS sometimes a case to be made for picking say bilebomb over leap or blink over everything else depending on the situation in the game, and how long it took your team to get that second hive up.
What if instead of biomass you simply moved a number of alien abilities to 1 hive, BUT at a greater cost. So for example at 1 hive leap, spores and bilebomb would be available but at a drastically increased cost. Then at 2 hives the price would be lower and at 3 it might be even lower.
It would look like this
(NA means it is not available at that hive)
Cost at Number of Hives: 1 /2 /3
---
Gorge Tunnel: 30/30/20
Leap: 50/30/20
Bilebomb: 50/30/30
Spores: 40/30/20
Blink: NA/30/30
Umbra: NA/40/30
Xenocide: NA/40/30
Vortex: NA/40/30
Stomp: NA/50/30
Costs are just an example, but you get the idea. Basically with this system hive 1 play would get a lot more meaning where as hive 3 is arguably going to remain important as a strategic choice, since rushing it could offer you significantly cheaper tech. (Price difference between 2 and 3 should probably be a bit bigger even) As such, it accomplishes pretty much the same objectives as the biomass system, while being a lot simpler and still allowing a level of customisation. (I.e you may want to rush bilebomb at hive 1, etc)
I also think a same system could be applied to commander t.res lifeform drops, provided you don't want to entirely do away with those. The goal here is adding depth to the game, and differentiating costs based on tier could do just that, while making 1 hive alien play more competitive (bigger comeback potential) and 3 hive alien play more desirable.
edit: didn't notice that own thread had been opened for this discussion 8).
With the low amount of air control the skulks have in this mod, if a marine just strafe jumps out of the way you're basically back to zero speed and in big open rooms this would result in disaster for the skulk.
Since we need the predictable movement pattern of skulks when they are moving fast, and need some kind of air controll, I don't really see that anything else than the movement pattern of bunnyjumping working.
Or maybe I'm not using the movement properly.
you can use leap to assist acceleration with a stationary start. maybe leap could also be tweaked to give a little more air control.
what you're saying is true, it doesn't make much difference to the isolated marine versus skulk encounters. however, skulk getting from A to B much faster could have a significant effect on setting up coordinated attacks. not to mention the first skulk into the room could just bunny hop around with no intention of doing the predictable and heading to the marine - to draw bullets towards a more difficult target.
would you keep leap if you buy it at 2 hives for 30 tres, then lose your second hive?
i do like that idea, but in the current balance mod the biomass system seems to increase lifeform hp (at least indicated in the change log, i haven't been able to find a server in a couple of days), which is 'advantage biomass'. :P
another experimental change is that spores are default lerk and spikes were buffed and moved to level 6-7(?) biomass level. imo this change was wonderful, especially as spore deployment method is ranged, so the lerk can 'block' corridors etc without playing shotgun roulette.
If you buy leap at 2 hives and go back to 1, you could just be charged the surplus 10 or 20 t.res to make it available at 1 hive too. I.e you wouldn't have to unlock it completely again for the full cost, since you already paid for a big portion of the cost at 2 hives. I think that would by far be the most straight forward approach anyway.
Lifeform scaling is something UWE should have long done based on number of hives, and it's something they did in NS 1 as well. It should work fine even without a biomass system. With lifeform scaling, they should even bring back onos t.res drops on 2 hives, or all lifeforms at 1 hive, since they'd be weaker on lower amounts of hive. This would then make for some very interesting strategic play and increase the amount of sinks for the alien commander. + Increase the comeback potential significantly.
One thing to note about this is you need to create a tradeoff. IMO leap on hive one should cost more than or equal to hive 2 research + the hive cost. As you have it leap on hive 1 costs 50 and a second hive + leap at hive 2 costs 70. Being able to rush leap at hive 1 cheaper and faster than using 2 hives is problematic especially with no other tech gating on that ability.
I think at any rate, it's a small price to pay for maintaining ability unlock flexibility, which is much more detrimental to alien gameplay. (I.e having to get leap first when marines are outside your hive with ARCs or phase tech which SCREAMS for bilebomb first unlock is just frustrating)
thats a nice idea, im a bit scared of the consequences (1 hive onos...) but i would be very curious to see the result! the alien commander can now again chose which ability to research (bio mass is now a requirement for abilities, though you can skip leap/bilebomb to allow for more strategies). the new HP scaling should make it fairly easy to balance the risk/reward tradeoff for t.res lifeforms, probably worth a shot. worst case is i need to revert it, best case more possible strategies for aliens.
A next step could be to add other stuff to this Skulk-Tech-Tree. Like a RFK-researchable or scalability for skulks to increase their late game usefulness, without hampering with the health of the other life forms. Just some ideas.
or better yet, if we're in the mood to change default/unlock abilities... switch leap with parasite, and make parasite better :P
Very interesting idea and also avoids the base trade problem as you can get them back/keep some more easily.