ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited March 2013
I'm a fan of full marine backward speed when jumping because I think marines shouldn't have a speed penalty when moving backwards. Personally, I'd like to see NS2 balanced with
- Marines = full backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) speed buffed to compensate
rather than
- Marines = reduced backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) movement nerfed to compensate
http://tinyurl.com/a6v6y6b (youtube link at a specific time. can't seem to direct link without the forum transforming it into a link at the beginning)
That clip mostly highlights the problems I see with pub skulks. 1) They don't know when to disengage (e.g. if you miss more than 2-3 bites, pull back and attack from another angle), 2) teamwork issues (e.g. those skulks doing a conga line into the marines rifle), and 3) assaulting vent from the data core-side is a terrible idea for aliens (e.g. long open passage = marine shooting gallery).
The core movement in most FPS games similar to NS2 (ie: Quake, UT, Tribes, etc) does not have downsides. It's simply expected that you'll be familiar with movement skills and use them as much as possible to dodge.
There is no downside to both of them utilizing absolutely amazing movement - and why would there be? Do you honestly think Quake would be a better game if there was some arbitrary mechanic that limited movement abilities or gave downsides to using them? People constantly moving and being evasive is far more exciting to play (and watch) than a game that artificially limits movement with downsides that don't need to exist.
And on the rambo note? Ramboing is a sign that your game actually has a skill curve - it's a good thing. Why? Because it means there's enough room in your game's skill curve that one player can beat an overwhelming number advantage if his skill is high enough. Want to beat that high skilled player who's ramboing? Bring yourself up to his skill level and beat him. Simple as that.
Your examples are of SYMMETRICAL games, where both players can do similar/identical ranged damage. This is NOT the same case as NS2, where one side is *required* to be in melee range to deal ANY damage. In those games, the jumping mechanics in those games are not an issue, because it does not significantly angle the playing field; the same tactics are available to both sides.
NS2 is not Quake. NS2 is not UT. NS2 is not Tribes. NS2 is not TF2, Nexuiz, Shootmania, or instagib-24/7-de_dust.
You're comparing apples to floor jacks, insisting that they're the same thing, and that the same principles should apply.
Hint: They're nothing alike, and insisting that because something works in a completely different game, that it should be included here verbatim is just counterproductive to the discussion.
No. Successful ramboing means that there is a mechanic available which can be exploited to overcome all other balancing measures. It is a sign of a SEVERE flaw, which needs to be considered, and preferably addressed as soon as possible.
There is plenty of room for skill. But making individual, mindless twitch-shooting capability override ALL other gameplay mechanics is simply bad design... even if people who only rely on that to get by will claim that it is 'lowering the skill ceiling'.
Your examples are of SYMMETRICAL games, where both players can do similar/identical ranged damage. This is NOT the same case as NS2, where one side is *required* to be in melee range to deal ANY damage. In those games, the jumping mechanics in those games are not an issue, because it does not significantly angle the playing field; the same tactics are available to both sides.
NS2 is not Quake. NS2 is not UT. NS2 is not Tribes. NS2 is not TF2, Nexuiz, Shootmania, or instagib-24/7-de_dust.
You're comparing apples to floor jacks, insisting that they're the same thing, and that the same principles should apply.
Hint: They're nothing alike, and insisting that because something works in a completely different game, that it should be included here verbatim is just counterproductive to the discussion.
They are absolutely alike in the sense that movement needs to be a deep skill curve, be fluid, and be rewarding. Adding in arbitrary limitations (like the one you described) would not be a benefit to the game. Ideally, NS2 should support a wide degree of movement skill that's applicable to both sides, just in different ways. Systematically removing parts from the game and removing advanced movement is not a good solution.
No. Successful ramboing means that there is a mechanic available which can be exploited to overcome all other balancing measures. It is a sign of a SEVERE flaw, which needs to be considered, and preferably addressed as soon as possible.
There is plenty of room for skill. But making individual, mindless twitch-shooting capability override ALL other gameplay mechanics is simply bad design... even if people who only rely on that to get by will claim that it is 'lowering the skill ceiling'.
This really isn't even remotely true. Successful ramboing means that one player was able to drastically outskill other players for a significant length of time. Unless you can prove that there is serious imbalance at equal levels of skill then it really doesn't matter if one player can do that against significantly less skilled players. A top level marine is still going to die when properly ganged up on by top level skulks. The fact that he doesn't die when the skulks are terrible is not indicative of balance issues in the least.
If you want to kill a good player, then be good yourself. It's really that simple. If one player is "ramboing" all over you, and you can't stop him, the problem is with the players stopping him and not the game. What you're asking for in this thread is essentially restrictive gameplay that gives you wins over players regardless of the player skill involved, and that simply doesn't make for a good game.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
I'd prefer faster skulks, rather than your suggestion. Your suggestion weakens Marines to balance with the now weakened Skulks. I'd prefer dealing with the Skulks, since they were the last to receive relatively dramatic changes. If that doesn't work (which I think it would), then tweak Marines.
skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively
Skulks are also ten times as frustrating to play now that you can be almost constantly out accelerated by a good marine in close combat. They are also soul crushingly useless in the late game against jetpacks, and very frustrating to play against shotguns. I used to feel like going against a top level shotgunner I had at least a 40/60 chance of killing them. Now it feels like 10/90.
So you are saying skulks should always be able to defeat a marine who spends the res for shotguns and jetpacks? I thought there was a reason you would be inticed to purchase HIGHER LIFE FORMS. otherwise why even let those items have a cost, since you make it seem that any unit should be able to defeat any unit at no matter the cost used to procure each unit.
You should be comparing higher life forms to shotgun jetpackers, not a base skulk with no inclusion of factors like leap, carapace, or celerity.
This needs to re-emphasized, every "lowering of skill ceiling" call by most players are usually exactly the opposite, by the same logic skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively, its one of the most hypocritical problems people on this forum forget xD
Skulks don't require more skill to play effectively now. Something becoming weaker due to a nerf is not an act that increases the skill ceiling of a gameplay element - in many cases it's the opposite. The gap between an average skulk and a top level skulk in 239 was huge, because 239 skulks had a much faster top speed via good wall jumping, and far more movement options for close range dodging. Eliminating all of those tools barely affects the average player (his skill wasn't high to begin with), but drastically affects the top level player who was using every tool available to him.
Bad skulks in 239 ground skulked and died. Bad skulks in 241 still ground skulk and die. Except in 241, I no longer have to worry about high level skulks going into my face at high speeds, nor do I have to worry about them evading me at all in close range. The toolset available to good players was drastically lessened, and as a result the gap between high and average was compressed. Meaning that the effect of high skill was dramatically lessened, and reaching the maximum output of the skulk is significantly easier.
Sorry what?
Skulks do require more skill to play now...the nerf to skulk movement has increased the difference in mobility of the two sides...in combat.
Marines have had their movement buffed in the past and that was more than enough of a variance.
If a skulk has a harder time once in melee then he needs more skill to be able to get the kill.
Marines have less skill required since the 240 patch as they can more easily outmanouver a skulk once they get within range.
You dont need to necessarily nerf marines...but you do have to reduce the difference in acceleration between skulks and marines as is currently obscenely marine favoured.
Sure you can still get some kills but they take a lot more work...not only must the skulk player learn not to be a ground skulk...but once they do get within range..they have to predict marine movement (which is nigh on impossible) to offset the different in accel and air control.
Skulks skill ceiling has again been raised as a result of 240....I guess you could simply say marine skill ceiling has been lowered but either way the skulks been badly nerfed.
Either increase (add back in) marine accel ramp up or revert aliens back to 239 accel levels...atleast then I can keep that marine in bite range even if he is half skilled.
skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively
Skulks are also ten times as frustrating to play now that you can be almost constantly out accelerated by a good marine in close combat. They are also soul crushingly useless in the late game against jetpacks, and very frustrating to play against shotguns. I used to feel like going against a top level shotgunner I had at least a 40/60 chance of killing them. Now it feels like 10/90.
So you are saying skulks should always be able to defeat a marine who spends the res for shotguns and jetpacks? I thought there was a reason you would be inticed to purchase HIGHER LIFE FORMS. otherwise why even let those items have a cost, since you make it seem that any unit should be able to defeat any unit at no matter the cost used to procure each unit.
You should be comparing higher life forms to shotgun jetpackers, not a base skulk with no inclusion of factors like leap, carapace, or celerity.
But the base marine is compared to lerks, fades, Onos when talking about the required weapons and armour upgrades.
Sorry but the skulk needs to be as viable a lifeform as a marine with his LMG late game.
Currently he is not viable late game...even if your winning he is tits on a bull (kinda cool but useless).
it's incredible how people are still in favor of things like accuracy decay or movement penalties NS2 when the game is clearly way too fast-paced for something like that to ever fit. just because a thing has disadvantages and advantages doesn't mean that it belongs in the game.
Celerity de-activating in combat is actually a perfect example of these silly kinds of ideas and the thought process that goes behind implementing them. and then you can see in practice how completely useless it is.
guys there should be a mechanic where if you hold forward for too long then you start to take damage, then you'll have to consider like "do I want to move forward" or "do I uninstall and play a game where all of the mechanics actually have synergy"
I'm a fan of full marine backward speed when jumping because I think marines shouldn't have a speed penalty when moving backwards. Personally, I'd like to see NS2 balanced with
- Marines = full backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) speed buffed to compensate
rather than
- Marines = reduced backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) movement nerfed to compensate
The problem is that there is no down side. No reason NOT to jump around. Deciding if a tradeoff is worthwhile is part of 'skill' as much as any mechanical usage of the tools provided; if anything I'd call a tactical choice more of an actual skill than a basic mechanical proclivity. If the penalty incurred is worth the benefit gained. As it stands currently, there is ONLY benefit. I'd say that more 'dumbs down' the movement than anything else; it requires the usage of a given playstyle, limiting options and harming the ability to balance without outlying vectors.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
I think you don't understand how jump jukeing works. It does have a down side. When you make your jump, you commit to a particular trajectory.
If a skulk accurately predicts that trajectory, the next bite is extremely easy to land.
This is way the mechanic isn't very powerful when the skulk and the marine are equally skilled.
This is a piece of advice for anyone who thinks marine jumping is too powerful. Next time a marine is jumping around with you in combat. Make an effort to create a little space (1-2 meters) between you and the marine. Then, rather then just chasing him, look at where he is headed.
When I am playing on pubs, 80% of skulks I fight just blindingly chase me around. It makes it very easy, to dodge them. Run to where the marine is going to be, not where he is now.
Lets be honest here, if it wasn't for marine "jump spam" completely breaking immersion and looking retarded, there would be no problem with it, and it would be seen as a good game mechanic by all.
But there is a downside: when I first started trying to juke, my aim was MUCH worse. It's much tougher to aim whilst jumping around than it is whilst staying still - though admittedly I am closing that gap.
Lets be honest here, if it wasn't for marine "jump spam" completely breaking immersion and looking retarded, there would be no problem with it, and it would be seen as a good game mechanic by all.
it doesn't look retarded, it looks awesome... like that scene in the matrix where neo dodges the bullets.
neo had the skill to predict the bullet trajectories and avoid them. skilled marines should have the ability to predict lesser skilled skulks and avoid them.
what's retarded is any resolution which involves melee range skulk getting a trivial marine kill.
Regarding how jumping around looks: I agree with OutlawDr and disagree with tarquinbb.
Perhaps if we were playing a Matrix-inspired game, and if everything were in slow motion during combat like in the Matrix movie, then yeah, it might look cool. But we're not and it isn't and it doesn't.
Comments
- Marines = full backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) speed buffed to compensate
rather than
- Marines = reduced backwards speed, skulk (and gorge and onos) movement nerfed to compensate
That clip mostly highlights the problems I see with pub skulks. 1) They don't know when to disengage (e.g. if you miss more than 2-3 bites, pull back and attack from another angle), 2) teamwork issues (e.g. those skulks doing a conga line into the marines rifle), and 3) assaulting vent from the data core-side is a terrible idea for aliens (e.g. long open passage = marine shooting gallery).
Your examples are of SYMMETRICAL games, where both players can do similar/identical ranged damage. This is NOT the same case as NS2, where one side is *required* to be in melee range to deal ANY damage. In those games, the jumping mechanics in those games are not an issue, because it does not significantly angle the playing field; the same tactics are available to both sides.
NS2 is not Quake. NS2 is not UT. NS2 is not Tribes. NS2 is not TF2, Nexuiz, Shootmania, or instagib-24/7-de_dust.
You're comparing apples to floor jacks, insisting that they're the same thing, and that the same principles should apply.
Hint: They're nothing alike, and insisting that because something works in a completely different game, that it should be included here verbatim is just counterproductive to the discussion.
No. Successful ramboing means that there is a mechanic available which can be exploited to overcome all other balancing measures. It is a sign of a SEVERE flaw, which needs to be considered, and preferably addressed as soon as possible.
There is plenty of room for skill. But making individual, mindless twitch-shooting capability override ALL other gameplay mechanics is simply bad design... even if people who only rely on that to get by will claim that it is 'lowering the skill ceiling'.
They are absolutely alike in the sense that movement needs to be a deep skill curve, be fluid, and be rewarding. Adding in arbitrary limitations (like the one you described) would not be a benefit to the game. Ideally, NS2 should support a wide degree of movement skill that's applicable to both sides, just in different ways. Systematically removing parts from the game and removing advanced movement is not a good solution.
This really isn't even remotely true. Successful ramboing means that one player was able to drastically outskill other players for a significant length of time. Unless you can prove that there is serious imbalance at equal levels of skill then it really doesn't matter if one player can do that against significantly less skilled players. A top level marine is still going to die when properly ganged up on by top level skulks. The fact that he doesn't die when the skulks are terrible is not indicative of balance issues in the least.
If you want to kill a good player, then be good yourself. It's really that simple. If one player is "ramboing" all over you, and you can't stop him, the problem is with the players stopping him and not the game. What you're asking for in this thread is essentially restrictive gameplay that gives you wins over players regardless of the player skill involved, and that simply doesn't make for a good game.
I'd prefer faster skulks, rather than your suggestion. Your suggestion weakens Marines to balance with the now weakened Skulks. I'd prefer dealing with the Skulks, since they were the last to receive relatively dramatic changes. If that doesn't work (which I think it would), then tweak Marines.
So you are saying skulks should always be able to defeat a marine who spends the res for shotguns and jetpacks? I thought there was a reason you would be inticed to purchase HIGHER LIFE FORMS. otherwise why even let those items have a cost, since you make it seem that any unit should be able to defeat any unit at no matter the cost used to procure each unit.
You should be comparing higher life forms to shotgun jetpackers, not a base skulk with no inclusion of factors like leap, carapace, or celerity.
Sorry what?
Skulks do require more skill to play now...the nerf to skulk movement has increased the difference in mobility of the two sides...in combat.
Marines have had their movement buffed in the past and that was more than enough of a variance.
If a skulk has a harder time once in melee then he needs more skill to be able to get the kill.
Marines have less skill required since the 240 patch as they can more easily outmanouver a skulk once they get within range.
You dont need to necessarily nerf marines...but you do have to reduce the difference in acceleration between skulks and marines as is currently obscenely marine favoured.
Sure you can still get some kills but they take a lot more work...not only must the skulk player learn not to be a ground skulk...but once they do get within range..they have to predict marine movement (which is nigh on impossible) to offset the different in accel and air control.
Skulks skill ceiling has again been raised as a result of 240....I guess you could simply say marine skill ceiling has been lowered but either way the skulks been badly nerfed.
Either increase (add back in) marine accel ramp up or revert aliens back to 239 accel levels...atleast then I can keep that marine in bite range even if he is half skilled.
But the base marine is compared to lerks, fades, Onos when talking about the required weapons and armour upgrades.
Sorry but the skulk needs to be as viable a lifeform as a marine with his LMG late game.
Currently he is not viable late game...even if your winning he is tits on a bull (kinda cool but useless).
Celerity de-activating in combat is actually a perfect example of these silly kinds of ideas and the thought process that goes behind implementing them. and then you can see in practice how completely useless it is.
guys there should be a mechanic where if you hold forward for too long then you start to take damage, then you'll have to consider like "do I want to move forward" or "do I uninstall and play a game where all of the mechanics actually have synergy"
I think you don't understand how jump jukeing works. It does have a down side. When you make your jump, you commit to a particular trajectory.
If a skulk accurately predicts that trajectory, the next bite is extremely easy to land.
This is way the mechanic isn't very powerful when the skulk and the marine are equally skilled.
This is a piece of advice for anyone who thinks marine jumping is too powerful. Next time a marine is jumping around with you in combat. Make an effort to create a little space (1-2 meters) between you and the marine. Then, rather then just chasing him, look at where he is headed.
When I am playing on pubs, 80% of skulks I fight just blindingly chase me around. It makes it very easy, to dodge them. Run to where the marine is going to be, not where he is now.
But there is a downside: when I first started trying to juke, my aim was MUCH worse. It's much tougher to aim whilst jumping around than it is whilst staying still - though admittedly I am closing that gap.
it doesn't look retarded, it looks awesome... like that scene in the matrix where neo dodges the bullets.
neo had the skill to predict the bullet trajectories and avoid them. skilled marines should have the ability to predict lesser skilled skulks and avoid them.
what's retarded is any resolution which involves melee range skulk getting a trivial marine kill.
Perhaps if we were playing a Matrix-inspired game, and if everything were in slow motion during combat like in the Matrix movie, then yeah, it might look cool. But we're not and it isn't and it doesn't.