it's easier to tell rookie rines to phase to a place, then to teach them when to push and when to defend, power at the wrong place is no power at all. that being said early upgrades are still a backbone of the marine team and i have seen 6 minute exos on descent before while being on alien team, it simply crushed the morale of my team the same way early an onos does on rines without firepower.
If marines are defending a forward base next to a hive I'll take phase over weapons 2 any day
If marines are defending more than 1 front line I'll take phase over weapons 2
If aliens do an All-In rush my base within the first minute of the game. . . here's a shocker. . . I'll take the Observatory
Phase is a 45 second research vs. getting to weapons 2 which is 3 minutes
That's a long long time to go without that umbrella and holding back marines from the front to guard base opens a whole new can of worms
Phase also lets your commander reinforce if things get particularly dicey. . . Just ask yourself How much is +1 players is worth to you?
How about in a powered down situation on a lost tech point; what looks better?
A lone +2 marine rushing back from spawn to take on a 5on1 or a lone marine setting up a new phase 1 room over?
Phase also scares off a lot of higher lifeforms. . .
Just ask yourself how many times you've died because you kept the fight going too long near a phase and a flood came through
Even if you're not setting up a chair anytime soon denying the alien's natural hive expansion is a pretty big deal
On maps like Veil rushing phase could mean locking down aliens to a single hive. . . I shouldn't need to tell what that means for your team
I agree. You can drop 2 PGs in Cargo/Pipeline within the first 4-5 mins and then use reinforcements to cut off Nano. Of course, it only works if you can win the first few crucial fights.
Weapons 1 won't be done until around ~2:30 mins anyway, so it doesn't help you there and that's enough time to almost have a PG ready.
no pgs is just a shortcut you can take if a) you play on a small server with a competent team or b) you play on a normal server with a absolutely stacked team.
It's a pub game with even teams and no early facegate? Aliens have a huge timing window to absolutely wreck the marine team, confine them to a small area, and gain complete map control before marines can get the upgrades they need to make this strategy viable. Even then alien comm can wait to see what tech marines have before deciding on which first hive to go with, and even then celery will ensure map control for your team before marines get their upgrades up.
It's pretty disingenuous to assume the alien team and its comm is subpar while the marines are working like a well-oiled machine. The marine team in this scenario would most likely win regardless of which tech path they pursue as long as the commander isn't drooling on the keyboard.
the reason no pg doesnt work on pubs is because ppl will wait at techpoints for pg and when you tell them youre not researching pg they ask for an armory so they con hold what we got, and when they die they blame comm for no pgs and destroy the morale of the team.
No PG is very viable in comp play because it is a viable strat when your team isnt completely dishonest about executing it regardless of skill.
I'd say it's a perfectly viable strategy, but this only works if your marines are smart competent players with good positioning and situational awareness, who follow orders immediately. So that excludes 90% of all pub games.
This is my exact thinking as well. Arms lab first works totally fine in games where there are smaller numbers and your marines are competent enough to hold their zones and win a reasonable amount of engagements.
Pub games, because they are so much larger than any sort of competitive game, tend to be in a much more rapid state of flux. You lose an engagement and it isn't 2 marines losing vs 3 skulks with a single skulk left to then attack the RT's, its like 5 marines losing vs 8 skulks with 4 or 5 skulks left to kill your RT's.
Your infrastructure just goes down so much faster than a competitive game. There just doesn't exist the time for a marine(s) to run back to his side of the map and reinforce/resecure. Phase gates in a pub game help you establish a map presence that, unless you are playing with extremely competent players, just wouldn't be possible otherwise.
Players who play competitively all the time don't get the level of incompetence and general lack of responsiveness which is rampant in pubs. A pub commander deals with situations that develop rather then directing the game. With phase gates, even unresponsive marines are able to hold more map control, and the few responsive ones are better equipped to deal with a large area of the map.
I agree with the subject line and the following info is nice. I've done something similar on pubs before. Only with Mines, instead of W2. I'm pretty sure my Marines were good in those matches; they could aim, anticipate incoming attacks, and used mines (ha ha!).
Shino, what server size do you use this on or do you think it's viable for any server size?
I agree with the subject line and the following info is nice. I've done something similar on pubs before. Only with Mines, instead of W2. I'm pretty sure my Marines were good in those matches; they could aim, anticipate incoming attacks, and used mines (ha ha!).
Shino, what server size do you use this on or do you think it's viable for any server size?
Every 6v6+
I like:
Armory -> 3x RT -> Arms lab // IP -> Weapons 1 -> Weapons 2 -> Obs -> Armor 1 -> Phase Gates
At any point after weapons 1, you can get mines (if you need them by now. If you don't, then don't bother for the entire match) // Shotgun -> Welder.
Obviously if your marines wipe on both sides, you're screwed. But you would have been screwed with phase gates.
The theory behind it is, it is very hard for marines to die to celerity // vanilla skulks when you have 2/1 upgrades (or even 2/2). Normally in pubs, you have 0/1 by the time they have -fades- out. What if by the time they have fades out, you have 2/2 shotguns?
Much different story imo. You still get the phases, but not as early as shitty pubs are used to.
Nobody is a perfect shot every time.How is this even a conversation ? The marines don´t have enough mobility.Phase gates provide that.It is impossible to cover that much distance with just walking and running.
Even if you know where to go, you are going run out of ammo and possibly armor and health(since you might get attacked).
With a slight delay in tech, I find a 2nd CC with IP is good at spreading the team. Your gonna need a 2nd CC and IP at some point anyway..
I used to do this, but found it works terribly. You end up waiting forever for just 1 marine to spawn in at that one stupid IP, the marines can't move back and forth, and when it inevitably dies after 2 minutes, you lose the 40-60 res you just spent, which could have just bought you phase gates.
Sounds like an awesome stacked pubstompin strat, good luck holding those cards in an actual match though
It's more viable in an actual match than it is in a pub, tbh. In your average pub the upgrades aren't going to matter cause your marines can't hit anything or make decisions for themselves anyways, so you kinda need phase gates to funnel them into the areas you need them in.
Rush PG seems the most stable and least vulnerable build order. It is standard for a reason.
Fast obs and fast PG is cloak play and base rush insurance.
Basically it is cheese proof, whereas rushing upgrades risks stupid losses for an edge against more standard play.
Even then unless the player count is really low I'd rather have PGs than upgrades. More players in a fight beats less players with better upgrades because the amount of improvement is small and aliens are melee so having your damage sources spread out beats having less but stronger players.
If you have small enough numbers where a commander can babysit marines so you dont lose people (cause you wont have reinforcements) and small enough numbers that a handfull of skulks wont get by and ruin your base maybe the upgrade edge is good.
Fast phase is a much riskier strat, because if you lose even a single phase gate, you will be so far behind on upgrades that fades will come out and two swipe your marines. At this point, if they even have a remotely mediocre fade, you autolose the game.
Obviously if you see that they go camo/silence, get an earlier obs.
Don't give me shit about potentially not getting mines, because in 9/10 pubs, nobody even thinks about researching mines until late game (when they are useless).
I know how bad pub marines are. That is why this strat is good. It is ridiculously hard for a 2/1 marine to die to a solo skulk. Once you start pushing 2/2 - 3/3, I'm willing to say you would have lost anyways if you still have marines dying to skulks funneling in. Imagine you have a phase gate in crossroads on summit- what does that actually accomplish? Only something like 20 seconds of walking time, assuming you have the worst spawn. And during that walking time, you can recap your natural RTs if they get boozled by aliens.
Nobody is a perfect shot every time.How is this even a conversation ? The marines don´t have enough mobility.Phase gates provide that.It is impossible to cover that much distance with just walking and running.
Even if you know where to go, you are going run out of ammo and possibly armor and health(since you might get attacked).
Upgrades might (and will) be the difference between killing all the skulks and a few marines surviving a push, or killing a few skulks and all the marines dying in a push. Sure, if the marines die anyway, it's much better to have spent the res on phase gates to get them back to the battlefield, but if they survive because of the upgrades, they can get much further into the enemy territory than by just spamming themselves against the aliens with phase gates.
Also, I don't think you've ever heard of ammo and med drops.
If someone doesn't want waste so much tres on early PG, I recommend pop out with early shotgun/welder/mines securing your teammates superior firepower to skulks (probably with celerity), healing themselves, building faster and repairing and even securing undefended areas with nasty surprises. Along with forwarded armories and medpack/ammo help your team (if properly organized) can suppress aliens in their hive and sabotage their harvesters, making them sad little creatures while 2 people seize all the RT's, after that time getting PG is cheap.
Summarizing: RT, RT, ARMO, SHOT, WELD = 10+10+10+20+10 = 60 TRES = same amount as getting early phase or getting weapon 2. Time to get it? Fast. Then you go visit alien harvesters and actually toying around. Don't forget organised team on this one! (or at least with 30pfs per battle so they don't need to spray 'n' pray bullets like me).
I am quite medium marine commander right now, but using PG rush is not that good in pub, some people get the phase up, and don't know what do to next more then defend the PG area... The matter of using PG is containing area and using it as transport to forwarded bases, but even if you do it, people can wander off in random directions.
But...
Early PG is vital IMO, because it compensates slow marines vs skulks if it comes to defending RT that are located more then one area farther from main base. And as everyone knows: RT is everything. Placing at least one PG in forwarded location just to defend it and nearby resource towers will grant you big control and bigger income then just sitting tight with 3 RT's and waiting long time for that weapon 2, while alien commander spams cysts right near your feet having shitload of everything everywhere, while your team just got 20% more damage.
Obviously if your marines wipe on both sides, you're screwed. But you would have been screwed with phase gates.
This.
The relative merits of almost any strat are frequently overwhelmed by the inadequacies in the skill of the field players.
However, the one big flaw I see in ups first is that it leaves you vulnerable to an early rush (camo, in particular, but even a semi-organized push with your marines far away from base could lead to a quick loss). As such, you typically need 1-2 marines idling around/near base negating some of the offensive benefit of w2.
I have never seen marines win without early PG. Maybe if you play with very organized skilled players they can make this technique work by covering / welding eachother as they hold key points - but in pub games if you choose upgrades over phase tech you will lose 99.99% of games guaranteed. Don't believe me ? Go try it for 5-10 games and come post the results.
Comments
If marines are defending a forward base next to a hive I'll take phase over weapons 2 any day
If marines are defending more than 1 front line I'll take phase over weapons 2
If aliens do an All-In rush my base within the first minute of the game. . . here's a shocker. . . I'll take the Observatory
Phase is a 45 second research vs. getting to weapons 2 which is 3 minutes
That's a long long time to go without that umbrella and holding back marines from the front to guard base opens a whole new can of worms
Phase also lets your commander reinforce if things get particularly dicey. . . Just ask yourself How much is +1 players is worth to you?
How about in a powered down situation on a lost tech point; what looks better?
A lone +2 marine rushing back from spawn to take on a 5on1 or a lone marine setting up a new phase 1 room over?
Phase also scares off a lot of higher lifeforms. . .
Just ask yourself how many times you've died because you kept the fight going too long near a phase and a flood came through
Even if you're not setting up a chair anytime soon denying the alien's natural hive expansion is a pretty big deal
On maps like Veil rushing phase could mean locking down aliens to a single hive. . . I shouldn't need to tell what that means for your team
-
Weapons 1 won't be done until around ~2:30 mins anyway, so it doesn't help you there and that's enough time to almost have a PG ready.
It's pretty disingenuous to assume the alien team and its comm is subpar while the marines are working like a well-oiled machine. The marine team in this scenario would most likely win regardless of which tech path they pursue as long as the commander isn't drooling on the keyboard.
No PG is very viable in comp play because it is a viable strat when your team isnt completely dishonest about executing it regardless of skill.
This is my exact thinking as well. Arms lab first works totally fine in games where there are smaller numbers and your marines are competent enough to hold their zones and win a reasonable amount of engagements.
Pub games, because they are so much larger than any sort of competitive game, tend to be in a much more rapid state of flux. You lose an engagement and it isn't 2 marines losing vs 3 skulks with a single skulk left to then attack the RT's, its like 5 marines losing vs 8 skulks with 4 or 5 skulks left to kill your RT's.
Your infrastructure just goes down so much faster than a competitive game. There just doesn't exist the time for a marine(s) to run back to his side of the map and reinforce/resecure. Phase gates in a pub game help you establish a map presence that, unless you are playing with extremely competent players, just wouldn't be possible otherwise.
Also it is extremely risky/borderline incompetent to tell all your marines to leave base and not build an obs there
Shino, what server size do you use this on or do you think it's viable for any server size?
Every 6v6+
I like:
Armory -> 3x RT -> Arms lab // IP -> Weapons 1 -> Weapons 2 -> Obs -> Armor 1 -> Phase Gates
At any point after weapons 1, you can get mines (if you need them by now. If you don't, then don't bother for the entire match) // Shotgun -> Welder.
Obviously if your marines wipe on both sides, you're screwed. But you would have been screwed with phase gates.
The theory behind it is, it is very hard for marines to die to celerity // vanilla skulks when you have 2/1 upgrades (or even 2/2). Normally in pubs, you have 0/1 by the time they have -fades- out. What if by the time they have fades out, you have 2/2 shotguns?
Much different story imo. You still get the phases, but not as early as shitty pubs are used to.
if the marines position themselves correctly on the map, you have plenty of time to get back and defend against a base rush
but we are talking about pubs, arent we? chances are that a skulk is going to solo three marines anyway so it doesn't matter
Even if you know where to go, you are going run out of ammo and possibly armor and health(since you might get attacked).
I used to do this, but found it works terribly. You end up waiting forever for just 1 marine to spawn in at that one stupid IP, the marines can't move back and forth, and when it inevitably dies after 2 minutes, you lose the 40-60 res you just spent, which could have just bought you phase gates.
Do the skulks in your organized games not use vents?
It's more viable in an actual match than it is in a pub, tbh. In your average pub the upgrades aren't going to matter cause your marines can't hit anything or make decisions for themselves anyways, so you kinda need phase gates to funnel them into the areas you need them in.
Fast obs and fast PG is cloak play and base rush insurance.
Basically it is cheese proof, whereas rushing upgrades risks stupid losses for an edge against more standard play.
Even then unless the player count is really low I'd rather have PGs than upgrades. More players in a fight beats less players with better upgrades because the amount of improvement is small and aliens are melee so having your damage sources spread out beats having less but stronger players.
If you have small enough numbers where a commander can babysit marines so you dont lose people (cause you wont have reinforcements) and small enough numbers that a handfull of skulks wont get by and ruin your base maybe the upgrade edge is good.
Obviously if you see that they go camo/silence, get an earlier obs.
Don't give me shit about potentially not getting mines, because in 9/10 pubs, nobody even thinks about researching mines until late game (when they are useless).
I know how bad pub marines are. That is why this strat is good. It is ridiculously hard for a 2/1 marine to die to a solo skulk. Once you start pushing 2/2 - 3/3, I'm willing to say you would have lost anyways if you still have marines dying to skulks funneling in. Imagine you have a phase gate in crossroads on summit- what does that actually accomplish? Only something like 20 seconds of walking time, assuming you have the worst spawn. And during that walking time, you can recap your natural RTs if they get boozled by aliens.
pub marines will get owned w/o phase tech early lmao
good marines will win regardless of phase/upgrades tech first
Upgrades might (and will) be the difference between killing all the skulks and a few marines surviving a push, or killing a few skulks and all the marines dying in a push. Sure, if the marines die anyway, it's much better to have spent the res on phase gates to get them back to the battlefield, but if they survive because of the upgrades, they can get much further into the enemy territory than by just spamming themselves against the aliens with phase gates.
Also, I don't think you've ever heard of ammo and med drops.
Summarizing: RT, RT, ARMO, SHOT, WELD = 10+10+10+20+10 = 60 TRES = same amount as getting early phase or getting weapon 2. Time to get it? Fast. Then you go visit alien harvesters and actually toying around. Don't forget organised team on this one! (or at least with 30pfs per battle so they don't need to spray 'n' pray bullets like me).
I am quite medium marine commander right now, but using PG rush is not that good in pub, some people get the phase up, and don't know what do to next more then defend the PG area... The matter of using PG is containing area and using it as transport to forwarded bases, but even if you do it, people can wander off in random directions.
But...
Early PG is vital IMO, because it compensates slow marines vs skulks if it comes to defending RT that are located more then one area farther from main base. And as everyone knows: RT is everything. Placing at least one PG in forwarded location just to defend it and nearby resource towers will grant you big control and bigger income then just sitting tight with 3 RT's and waiting long time for that weapon 2, while alien commander spams cysts right near your feet having shitload of everything everywhere, while your team just got 20% more damage.
The relative merits of almost any strat are frequently overwhelmed by the inadequacies in the skill of the field players.
However, the one big flaw I see in ups first is that it leaves you vulnerable to an early rush (camo, in particular, but even a semi-organized push with your marines far away from base could lead to a quick loss). As such, you typically need 1-2 marines idling around/near base negating some of the offensive benefit of w2.