A dilemma

KungFuSquirrel

<div class="IPBDescription">The future of ns_veil rests within...</div>I've hit a standstill. Just about a week after finally getting back to ns_veil and making some solid progress, the ideas seem to have stopped flowing.

Well, I take that back. The ideas are still there, but the implementation is not... Every area I add/modify seems to get further and further away from the original vision...

Now, to the point: I'm weighing the options, and peer input is the final step in making a decision on the future of ns_veil. These are the possibile options:
1) Finish ns_veil in its current state (adding what is still needed, of course) and take my chances at official status in beta 1.
2) Scrap ns_veil and start hauling ### on a more-than-likely superior map, ns_eclipse (<i>eclipsing</i> ns_veil, get it? it's almost funny&#33<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

At this point, #2 is almost certain. However, I wanted to share this with you guys and receive your input before making a final decision.

realityisdead

I <b>definately</b> don't want to see ns_veil scrapped, Andrew. I've been following this map's progress, and really really want to see it in fully-playable glory.

I know where you are coming from though. Almost the <i>same, exact, thing</i> is happening to me (although I'm not so anxious to start over as you seem to be... would be nice, but entirely unrealistic.) Two weeks ago, it was decided that I really needed to get cranking on my own level if I ever wanted to finish it. So I did that. I got a somewhat significant amount of progres done, but I am now finding myself overly unsatisfied with my work. I seem to have lost an overall plan or direction for the map. I really would like it if I had the time and energy to completely start over (again), but I simply cannot. Plus I'd probably have masses of large rocks thrown at me when I announced it. I don't think it's going to happen. I can't let it.

So I don't know what to say to you... I know exactly how you feel right now. It's almost like the pressure of needing to finish these maps in time is making us lose our focus on what we originally wanted. It's extremely frustrating.

Maybe you just need a break... that's what I'm doing. I thought I was ready to get back into it today, but obviously not... You don't want to know.

That said, I really really really really don't want you to scrap ns_veil... But I would understand from personal experience if you felt the need to do so.

Jedisar

C'mon, you two are awesome mappers, you can finish your maps. If not for yourselves, Map them for me, and my lack of mapping skill!

realityisdead

I don't think the issue here is about comparitive analysis, as in "my map will never be as good as so-and-so's"... at least it isn't for me. I personally think my level is a bit too random and relying far to much on a "gimmick"... the lighting.

I can't speak for Andrew, but I think I just need to spend a bit more time away from it, and come back with a much wider overall plan. That also means I probably won't be able to finish it in time to be submitted for inclusion with version 1 of the mod... but I guess that's something I'll have to live with.

KungFuSquirrel

The point is, I'm no longer happy with the work going into Veil... I don't know if I will be again. If that is indeed the case, if I complete it as-is, it'll be far inferior to what I'm capable of.

I'm going to pose another question: From what you have seen thus far, what do you like/dislike about veil? Not specific areas, as those will no longer exist... but things like texturing, architecture, lighting, etc... Some of the concepts I've learned from NS mapping thus far could be of use...

In the meantime, there's work to be done.

realityisdead

<!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->

Alright, here it goes (you asked for it):

Only using specific areas as reference.

- While the architecture and lighting in the shots of the area around your overlook looked really truly awesome, I wonder if that particular style (of architecture and lighting) would work well in the NS universe. I bet it could, but I'm accustomed to a more grungy atmosphere.

- One thing that I noticed in you most recent shots was that nothing seemed to be very consistent or similar in respects to theme. One minute there was nice fancy copperish hallways and rooms (and overlooks), and then the next minute there was dark and creepy hangers and bays. I know the goal is to gradually instill a feeling of tension as you get closer to the hives but nothing really seemed to match up. Something you might want to keep in mind if you start on something else.

I really can't think of anything else right now... Might want to keep those two in mind though.

Terawatt_99

well, what <b>I</b> would do, is start work on eclipse, then, maybe, some ideas will come to you for veil, that's what i do when i'm stuck, i just forget about it for a while and do something else for a while...  but then there's always the possibility of completely forgetting about the first thing and never finishing it, but at least it'll still be there when you come back...

Greedo

Oh no.  Don't do this to us.  You've done far too much spectacular work on Veil to just completely scrap it now.  

I mean, ok, I fully and completely understand what you mean and what you're going through.  It's happened to me.  But then, I'd never done as much of a level as you have when I was hit.

If you really want to get to work on eclipse, do it.  Don't let what we say stop you.  But don't forget about Veil.  If you take it slowly enough, you'll probably be able to complete it.  You probably are just feeling too rushed.  Don't.  If you don't finish in time for the first beta, so what?  Your map will still get out there, and it'll still be played.  The second version is always an option.  (I know that I'm not restricting myself to a finished product by the first beta.)

In any case, I want that overlook.

And Ken:  that lighting is not a gimmick.  There's enough solid design to back it up.

pielemuis

ok both of you are great mappers, no doubt about that.
I think you guys are rushing your maps to get it to be included with beta1, don't!
An artist, and mapping -is- an artform, never rushes his paintings or statues. Take a break if you have no more ideas, go back to the map's roots and think logn and hard 'bout what you want'd to create, what kind of vision you wanted to share with the world.
look for some inspiration in everyday life (factories etc.), movies, books, cartoons,other maps etc.
I'm not sure but it may well be that your maps will be labeled as official even after beta1 is released, but that they will be released as some sort of "patch" (cs retail fix any1?)...
KungFu: if you're really stuck in veil, give it a rest, don't scrap it, just let it be for a while, hell, start on eclipse it may give you some ideas. Kungfu your maps seem to provide a great gameplay experience so I got high expectations (don't let this scare you <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> )
Ken: you're lighting is fantastic, but your architecture is great 2!I think that you completely know what NS is about.
You caught the soul of NS in your map, so to speak <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->

Sorry if this seems a bit corny...

realityisdead

Or perhaps take the areas you <i>did</i> like in veil, modify them up a bit to fit in with eclipse, and implement them into it. Or do you want a totally different style?

Ekaj

I say go with the new map, its no fun at all to be making something thats not as good as what your capable of. Ive restarted my map (ns_shaft) a lot but I finally have a good theme going that doesnt look like the other maps (havent shown screens yet), so its a lot more fun to work on it.

Nemesis_Zero

Well, if there is one thing no one should do, it's 'leaving something aside for a new idea you just got'.
I really appreciate your work and believe that what you'd release with veil would be truly astonishing, however, if you're not sure, and I mean 'not sure' as in 'I really don't know wether this is true to my idea and capabilities', not as in 'I don't know wether this room fits perfectly', then <b>don't</b>.

Take a break, the release of beta 1 isn't going to be tomorrow, so you'll still have time afterwards, and don't do anything mapping related at all. Take out your favourite game and play it for a while. Stop being developer and start being a gamer (You can tell that I've visited the gamedesign.net forums, can you?).
Then go back and take a look at your work. If you like what you see, finish and release it.
If not - goodbye, ns_veil. Scrap it. Move the .rmfs to a CD and delete every trace of Veil from your HD. Start with eclypse, and don't look back.

I'm sure you'll make the right descision.

KungFuSquirrel

The final decision:

Goodbye, ns_veil. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
Hello ns_eclipse.

I've started layout work, and I'd say I'm already approximately just under 25% layout completion... I don't have a lot of time if I want a shot at NS Beta 1, you know... Here's hoping Eclipse lives up to what I know I'm capable of.

See you when I have progress to show.

realityisdead

Good luck, Andrew. I'm really quite ticked that you have decided to cut it, but yeah... definately understand.

But man, just don't rush it... trust me. There is a difference between achieving set timeframe goals and rushing out a halfhearted attempt.

Don't be too suprised/upset if you don't finish this on time for version 1 though. I personally don't see myself acheiving this with my own level... but that's a totally different story. You're really crankin though, from the sounds of it.



<!--EDIT|ken20banks|April 01 2002,23:00-->

Greedo

I think that one thing you're all ignoring here is that Beta 1 won't ship with only 2 maps.  I should think that there would be at least 5, and very likely more.  There aren't many high quality maps as near to completion as Bast and Hera are.  And if I were to give a rough (and completely uninformed) estimate, I'd say that a release is at least a month and a half away.  Don't sweat the time crunch.

And as far as the decision goes, I'm sorry to hear that Veil is dead.  I wish you the best of luck on Eclipse, and I certainly hope that it isn't a departure from Veil so drastic that we won't ever be able to have firefights on the overlook.  Hint.  Hint.

KungFuSquirrel

I'm sorry to disappoint, but hopefully when I get some ns_eclipse shots out in the open you'll forget all about ns_veil... <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->

I'm aware that time is against me here, but I'm <i><b>not</b></i> mapping exclusively on the assumption/hope that the map will make Beta 1. I'll take things as they come. If I finish it in time and it makes it, great. If I finish it in time and it doesn't make it, plenty of time to tune it up for either independent release or a later NS update. If I don't finish it in time, so be it. Again, plenty of time to finish it on my own time.

Something like NS doesn't come along every day, though, and I'd absolutely love to have an official map -- but hey, if it's not ready, it's not ready.

[edit]Oh, Greedo, I think you may be pleasantly surprised... there were a few ideas from Veil that found themselves on paper almost immediately after I started plotting out the layout for Eclipse. Which, btw, this layout is more detailed than Veil's. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->[/edit]