Anyone else have problems with lag interp/dying around corners?

PakarsPakars Join Date: 2010-11-24 Member: 75262Members
It feels like I lose 70-80% of my lerks, and 30-40% of my fades to getting shot after I've passed a corner or otherwise left the FOV of the marines that were shooting at me by getting cover between us.

In addition, if a marine knows where he should aim as he passes a corner to, say, shoot a skulk biting an RT, he can usually get 50-70 damage off before the skulk can react, because he's dealing damage before he appears on the alien's screen(If you can keep your aim steady, you'll usually snipe the skulk before he can get away, because his model lingers for ~70-100 ms). I've done this countless times in the ~300 hours I've put into this game. It feels as if the only way to keep that from happening is to constantly sidestep, because the marine can't actually see where you are to shoot you.

Going further beyond these obvious(?) flaws, it's extremely difficult to see where marines/skulks are actually looking if they're actively turning, and if you time your dodging based on the model of your opponents, you WILL get shot, guaranteed. This is most obvious with shotguns and railguns, which hit extremely hard in one hit. If you snap turn and shoot, there's actually no time for the alien to register that they've been aimed at, or even been noticed.

If an alien is moving very quickly, and they look behind them as they die, you can see that the shot(s) that killed them actually landed somewhere behind them, sometimes significantly so.

Does anyone have comments on this?
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Comments

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Ye, my problems started around 12 years ago, when I started playing games on the internet.
  • Spektor56Spektor56 Join Date: 2010-11-10 Member: 74858Members
    edited March 2013
    alien models tend to be lateral instead of vertical, so the camera placement in the model only exacerbates the issue. I mostly play marines now so I never run into dying of interp since aliens are mostly melee.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Savagery2 wrote: »
    Spektor56 wrote: »
    alien models tend to be lateral instead of vertical, so the camera placement in the model only exacerbates the issue. I mostly play marines now so I never run into dying of interp since aliens are mostly melee.

    Very true. Does anyone know the reason why the skulk camera position is in the middle of the body?

    Because it isn't

  • KamamuraKamamura Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Members, Reinforced - Gold
    If you are arguing an unpopular topic, make sure that you at least voice a popular and approved opinion ;-)

    On an unrelated note - hooray, long live the king!

    Ad topic, yes, I get shot with a lerk this way all the time, I peek around a corner and immediately pull back, but still get hit the moment I am flying away, out of sight. An online game is always a compromise between various versions of a shared "reality". Online games actually prefer the version of the attacking player, because if the version of "server reality" was enforced all across the clients, you would experience bullets going through enemies all the time which is very annoying. This way, it's more acceptable, but just as "off". The latency can be worked around, but never eliminated.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, the thirdperson model pointing mismatches and the dying around corners happen in any multiplayer game, it's just that in NS2 they are very obvious and it feels laggy. The dev team is very small and I hope they'll find the time to improve that stuff.
    But also AAA games like Batlefield 3 have those problems. I very often die around a corner in BF3, and they have all the capacities to make a solid netcode. They just didn't really care I guess..
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    It's just a reality of netcode. You have to play Lerk/Fade by predicting damage rather than reacting to it. It's a common pitfall of alien play to expect that you can wait until you're low health before escaping, but in reality it's almost always too late by then. You should escape before that point with the expectation that you'll be at low health by the time you get away.
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    It could be worse. Without lag compensation you'd have to lead your shots/bites. Thankfully NS2 has a pretty decent lag compensation mechanism, even though it adds extra invisible lag.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited March 2013
    matso wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Savagery2 wrote: »
    Spektor56 wrote: »
    alien models tend to be lateral instead of vertical, so the camera placement in the model only exacerbates the issue. I mostly play marines now so I never run into dying of interp since aliens are mostly melee.

    Very true. Does anyone know the reason why the skulk camera position is in the middle of the body?

    Because it isn't

    It is. See http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/1964888/#Comment_1964888

    Surely every skulk attack would involve half the skulk then clipping directly into the marine victim? I personally have never witnessed this happen.

    Not saying you are wrong, I guess the rotation argument shows that the camera must be centred on the model. It just seems like other peculiarities would present then, thought I haven't seen them.

  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Getting killed around corners is a fact of life for any online multiplayer game. Its just a bit more noticeable (or less hidden) in NS2 than other games.
    matso wrote: »
    Yeah, the combo of center of the body viewpoint and lag compensation is a bit frustrating for any non-bipedal aliens. It'd be nice to have some way to look around the corner without exposing half your body.
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Surely every skulk attack would involve half the skulk then clipping directly into the marine victim? I personally have never witnessed this happen.

    Not saying you are wrong, I guess the rotation argument shows that the camera must be centred on the model. It just seems like other peculiarities would present then, thought I haven't seen them.
    Na, the skulk bite distance is simply increased to make it so the effective bite distance is still outside the skulk model. You don't have to place your viewpoint into the marine to get a hit.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    i've got about 800 hours as a sniper in tf2, and noone is gonna convince me that interp/lag compensation/netcode/hitboxes/hit reg is a better experience in that game.

    seriously, tf2 hit reg is notoriously bad.

    ns2 is flawless compared to that. yes, it does have noticible 'latency' of 100ms or whatever - but at least it's consistent and you can adapt by not standing still to give the marine 100ms of target practice.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Getting killed around corners isn't really the big issue. The other player saw you on their screen for the exact ammount of time you were on it, no more no less.

    The issue is how the interp and low client update rate affects ns2's very fast paced, reactionary, positional combat (melee vs ranged). It is important to know the actual location of the other player, their shooting status or bite timing, and have your own dodging moves be 'realized' as soon as possible etc. More so than ranged vs ranged combat.

    What also sucks is stuff like onos stomp, attaching to ladders, and stuff that modifies your movement and position in the context of lag compensation. e.g. all it takes is 200ping to become unable to dodge onos stomp, as well as smoothly climb up ladders.

    Yes, obviously the internet presents obvious latency issues, but when you have players with 15-30 ping to the server, you'd expect to feel less 'lag compensation' than there currently is. Especially if you want to take competitive play and connecting the world seriously.
  • ShinoShino Join Date: 2012-11-26 Member: 173316Members
    One thing to note is that lag compensation is completely and totally limit free.

    In console, type net_lag 2000. This will add 2000 latency your connection. You can shoot someone and have them two rooms away, but if you regged damage, they will seemingly randomally take damage.

    In pubs, it's usually around a corner, so it's not as bullshit.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Watch div 2 of north american NSL this season if you want to see how bad it really gets. Div 2 is 50% north american, 50% brazillian. I was apparently killed in east wing yesterday, even though on my screen I didn't die until I was flying through the door into topo. Topo and the hallway leading up to it were both empty, btw. It was just interp.
  • Wonderboy2402Wonderboy2402 Join Date: 2011-08-28 Member: 118911Members
    Yes, happens frequently when I lerk. Very frustrating but just part of the online experience.
  • Madd0gMadd0g Join Date: 2012-12-24 Member: 176116Members
    I played A LOT of bf3 before starting to activly play ns2.
    If anything i get shot behind corners less compared to bf3.
    But that's not really saying much is it :D
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited March 2013
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Because it isn't

    Man are you annoying, and wrong.

    Seems to happen more as lerk to me than anything else.
  • ZenoxiousZenoxious Join Date: 2013-03-17 Member: 184051Members
    edited March 2013
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    Getting killed around corners is a fact of life for any online multiplayer game. Its just a bit more noticeable (or less hidden) in NS2 than other games.

    No that's just plane wrong, once upon a time everything was run on the server and being shot round corners never existed. It should have continued to be those with the lowest latency to the server get the best performance and if you want to play on a non-local server you get penalised because of it. If for some reason you wanted to play with people outside of your geographical region for example, then add a zero ping server option rather than annoy everyone. The reason why this is so horrible in NS is because the damage feedback is so poor.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Zenoxious wrote: »
    No that's just plane wrong, once upon a time everything was run on the server and being shot round corners never existed. It should have continued to be those with the lowest latency to the server get the best performance and if you want to play on a non-local server you get penalised because of it. If for some reason you wanted to play with people outside of your geographical region for example, then add a zero ping server option rather than annoy everyone. The reason why this is so horrible in NS is because the damage feedback is so poor.
    So you'd want to go back to the days when you had to lead your target to get a hit? If you think the damage feedback in NS2 is poor just wait till putting an entire clip into a skulk does zero damage because you didn't lead it far enough.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    1) Getting killed behind corners happens in every fps multiplayer game these days, ever since the introduction of lag compensated netcode was introduced.

    2) Games where the players move slower, the "getting killed around a corner" effect is lessened, but it is still there.

    3) Because of NS2's alien models and because the speed at which the aliens travel, only make the "getting killed behind a corner" more noticable.... it isn't because NS2's lag compensated netcode is any worse or better than other games.
  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Volcano wrote: »

    Gonna need his ping, your ping, and server tick rate to determine whether that has anything at all to do with interp.

  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
    well you can ask gliss that
  • -WildCat--WildCat- Cape Town, South Africa Join Date: 2008-07-19 Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I live in South Africa and I usually play on South African servers. This last weekend, however, the servers stayed empty. (People are probably playing Starcraft II or Tomb Raider or something...)

    In any case, I spent the weekend playing on UK servers and I was very impressed at how well the game played with 180 ms ping times. Occasionally, as Marine, it was tough to get all my shots in before I was chomped to death but otherwise it was consistently smooth and eminently playable. I really can't complain about the net code in NS2. It really is rather good.

    Also, the issue of seemingly being shot around corners very rarely happens to me. It's a phenomenon that is indicative of over-extending with higher lifeforms, which is something you learn to avoid as your situational awareness increases with experience.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    Watch div 2 of north american NSL this season if you want to see how bad it really gets. Div 2 is 50% north american, 50% brazillian. I was apparently killed in east wing yesterday, even though on my screen I didn't die until I was flying through the door into topo. Topo and the hallway leading up to it were both empty, btw. It was just interp.

    East Wing and Topographical are in different maps, so this is an impressive feat.

    Fuuuuuuuck off you know what I mean :p

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited March 2013
    Dying around corners is particularly apparent in games like BF3 despite the slow average move speed.

  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    TBH, I think that it is a bigger issue in NS2 than any other multiplayer game that I can list off the top of my head. This is due to the fact that only one side is predominantly ranged. This means that you'll never (or at least very, very, rarely) see marines complaining about dying around corners since aliens only have 1 real ranged attack (spikes. spit doesn't count since it's soooo slooooooow).

    Now, I don't know if anything can be done, but just saying that it's like this in every multiplayer game isn't a good enough excuse, imho, due to the above point.
  • menohackmenohack Join Date: 2004-02-29 Member: 26995Members
    It feels like they are over-interpolating. I have 50 ms ping, the person shooting me has 50 ms ping, but I get hit almost a full second after getting out of line of sight. I would expect 100 ms * movement speed would be the maximum distance past the corner that I would die, but sometimes it's way further than I could travel in 1/10th of a second. I should probably measure it some time.
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