There is a limit on ARCs, they call them 'extractors'. Kill off the extractors and they won't be able to afford them.
Then expand this to everything. No Sentry, MAC or drifter limit either.
Let's compare. (I'll stick to MACs since they are both marine units)
MAC cost? 5 res
ARC cost? 15 res
MAC build time? 5 seconds
ARC build time? 10 seconds
MAC research cost? 10 res for robotics factory
ARC research cost? 10 res for robotics factory + 15 res for ARC factory
MAC speed? 4.5 (base) 6.75 (upgraded)
ARC speed? 3.0
I could go on, but let's be honest - MACs are cheap and easy to get, they build fast and move fast.
Drifters? They cost 3 res, build in 4 seconds and move at 7 speed.
ARCs cost double what MACs do, take twice as long to build, and then crawl across the map at a snails pace. I've never heard of a competitive game where ARCs were ever a problem like this. This tells me that this is more a problem of players failing to control marine expansion.
There has got to be FIFTY ARCs in that picture, if not more. That's 500 freaking res! LOL! If marines could afford that then they were swimming in res.
well its not the point im making with it being OP, that is one point but the main issue is why are they able to build enough to crash a server? equally the aliens have a similar ability like super effective said with hallucinations and such but those are non-damaging (gameplay wise) regardless neither team should be able to build or make so many entities that would cause a server to crash, this is my main point. For this main reason there should be a cap on all entities in order to prevent any troll or goofing off to cause server performance issues.
No arc limit. This is a means to an end. If the marine team is allowed to amass this much they deserve to steam roll everything.
If only Aliens had something similar. I guess you could say the onos and onos eggs, but as we all know new players arent aggressive enough and whips are pointless
Edit - A hard limit of 50 or so to save the server would be good, but nothing that limits gameplay like a 3-4 limit.
what's the point in having more than 5 ARC's ?? they clear a hive room in 2-3 scans... making 50 ARC's is retarded because you're lagging the server, wasting res on 1000% overkill and making it more tedious (but not harder) to kill.
aliens can have number of onos = number of players. marines can have infinite arcs + number of players. imo 5 ARC's is plenty, if you can't do the job with 5 ARC's then you don't deserve to succeed with that 'wave'.
If you rush Arcs and devote your entire economy to Arc production getting them every 18 seconds won't matter without upgrades, you won't be able to defend them. They are slow and a coordinated alien team should be able to destroy a good number of them on the way to your hive. Drifters for warning and enzyme are key. If you are building arcs late game, Aliens should have higher level life forms to deal with your marines guarding them. Your example of 10 Arcs destroying a hive is an example of poor situational awareness for the team. ANY arc train should be dealt with as early as possible 5, 10 or 50.
Again, I think the economy of the game is a soft limit on ARCs as many have already said. Aliens have enough tools to deal with them. A hard limit for server stability seems fair but it should be really high to the point where crash is certain.
Yeah, Bile Bomb got overnerfed. Splash reduction, range reduction and damage reduction were too much. One of them should be reverted. The problem with Bile was also only really related to Power Node rushing, the rest was fine.
Maybe there should only be a limit on how many Bile Bombs can stack on a structure at a time or just buff Nanoshield to give more protection against them.
Agreed, UWE did their typical move and nerfed every aspect of something that *might* have needed a slight nerf.
With that aside, there is a cap to BB stacking. The DOT stacks 4 times on a structure and after that it's just the initial damage from any other BBs.
No arc limit. This is a means to an end. If the marine team is allowed to amass this much they deserve to steam roll everything.
If only Aliens had something similar. I guess you could say the onos and onos eggs, but as we all know new players arent aggressive enough and whips are pointless
Edit - A hard limit of 50 or so to save the server would be good, but nothing that limits game play like a 3-4 limit.
what's the point in having more than 5 ARC's ?? they clear a hive room in 2-3 scans... making 50 ARC's is retarded because you're lagging the server, wasting res on 1000% overkill and making it more tedious (but not harder) to kill.
aliens can have number of onos = number of players. marines can have infinite arcs + number of players. imo 5 ARC's is plenty, if you can't do the job with 5 ARC's then you don't deserve to succeed with that 'wave'.
5 Arcs is too restrictive. If i want to save up and ARC say (on veil) Nano, Sub, and Pipe at the same time i need 5 per area if i am not relying on my team. Some will get killed in transit and other taken down during the act. My point is if another team was allowed to make that many arcs the other team needed to concede/f4.
If it hits the servers that hard then make a ultimate limit that will never affect game play. Like a 30-50 ARC limit. Anywhere in that range will not hinder game play while still allowing for a overkill victory. Only the devs can tell us how much ARC spam kills servers. Because by that time if that many arcs are made i believe aliens structures aren't plentiful at that point or will soon be eliminated.
No arc limit. This is a means to an end. If the marine team is allowed to amass this much they deserve to steam roll everything.
If only Aliens had something similar. I guess you could say the onos and onos eggs, but as we all know new players arent aggressive enough and whips are pointless
Edit - A hard limit of 50 or so to save the server would be good, but nothing that limits gameplay like a 3-4 limit.
what's the point in having more than 5 ARC's ?? they clear a hive room in 2-3 scans... making 50 ARC's is retarded because you're lagging the server, wasting res on 1000% overkill and making it more tedious (but not harder) to kill.
aliens can have number of onos = number of players. marines can have infinite arcs + number of players. imo 5 ARC's is plenty, if you can't do the job with 5 ARC's then you don't deserve to succeed with that 'wave'.
You've never gotten ready to send 5 or 6 arcs to hit a hive while having one in each base to deter nearby defense nests and sent 2 or 3 to another location as a decoy?
I've done this multiple times and I'm barely mediocre at the micromanaging. I could see a reasonable limit per arc factory, but that just means I'll make more factories.
Using them as such sounds very cheap and unimaginative.
How many bullets you got in a magazine?
As many as feels appropriate considering the power and cost of said bullets.
Not infinite then? But limits are soooo unimaginative!
Artificial limit =/= "limit" based on cost and efficiency.
Derp more please.
Whenever you find yourself using the term "but that's different", always question yourself, and ask just how different it really is.
One is based on resources and power, while the other is based on "someone can possibly troll with it"?
Hmm.
Yup, it's pretty goddamn different.
Are we done?
I invite you to go back a page and read what your argument was. You clearly stated that limits were not balancing tools, and that they were cheap and unimaginative.
Now, if you wish to revise your stand point, I welcome you to. However, from the perspective of limits, there is no difference between the limit on the number of bullets in a magazine, and how many ARCs a team can produce.
ARCs are the only basebusting tech available to one chair marines. Putting a limit on them like this would simply remove all hope of pushing out of a lockdown. I'm not sure about with the new Crag changes but 3 used to be the bare minimum if you wanted to get work done. If you wanted to get work done faster, you built more.
If a comm is investing in ARCs they're not investing in other things like upgrades, JPs or Exos. They're one of the few strategic opportunities in the game. In most games it's either ARCs or JPs or Exos, depending on how fast you want to kill the hive.
ARCs aren't impossible to defend against. Good crag placement and shade placement can help a ton (though Ink is a little wonky, IMO the arc shouldn't be able to shoot without seeing the stuff as it takes the shot). Its very possible to keep one half or the other of Nano alive with good crag placement. It all depends on where the marines are arcing from.
Furthermore, Bile bomb eats arcs like nobody's business.
So no, I don't want to see anything like a limit be added to ARCs. They are supposed to be a bit of rain on your parade. Should we limit shotguns for being able to one-shot skulks? I suppose we should limit the number of Dual Exos a team can get too?
Hard Limits are not the way to go. If you have to limit them, make them more expensive, or take longer to do something. But really, I think arcs are fine. The biggest problems are in the maps, not the arcs.
Using them as such sounds very cheap and unimaginative.
How many bullets you got in a magazine?
As many as feels appropriate considering the power and cost of said bullets.
Not infinite then? But limits are soooo unimaginative!
Artificial limit =/= "limit" based on cost and efficiency.
Derp more please.
Whenever you find yourself using the term "but that's different", always question yourself, and ask just how different it really is.
One is based on resources and power, while the other is based on "someone can possibly troll with it"?
Hmm.
Yup, it's pretty goddamn different.
Are we done?
I invite you to go back a page and read what your argument was. You clearly stated that limits were not balancing tools, and that they were cheap and unimaginative.
Now, if you wish to revise your stand point, I welcome you to. However, from the perspective of limits, there is no difference between the limit on the number of bullets in a magazine, and how many ARCs a team can produce.
You knew full well I was talking about artificial limits. Taking the word "limit" and applying it to anything you can and then poking me with it, is childish.
If you didn't know I was talking about artificial limits, then I apologize, and consequently stop taking you seriously in anything.
Hard Limits are not the way to go. If you have to limit them, make them more expensive, or take longer to do something. But really, I think arcs are fine. The biggest problems are in the maps, not the arcs.
But if you can build that many anyways, it's really not going to matter.
I personally like the 11 arc push. Played a game where the Com built 11, ninja them into a hive, deployed at once and killed the hive instantly. No warning. Just insta-hive-death. 3 or 4 ARCs gives away to the Aliens what you're up to. And 11 ARCs isn't that expensive.
But that requires marines not to shoot anything as the ARCs ride in.
But as others said, if the Marines can build that many in the first place, limiting ARCs won't save the Aliens. They're already boned as it is if they've given up that many RTs and let the Marines hold that many RTs.
I think there is some merit in limiting the number of arcs that you're able to produce. It's kind of silly to be able to make enough to crash a server.. maybe limit it at 20? That would give you the ability to simultaneously siege 4 locations at once with 5 arcs in each location.. it's more than enough and probably more than has ever been used in a serious match (i.e. non troll match).
If arcs get a limit then so should the whip marches (if they don't already have one).
Just go play on another server
Whips are stationery objects. Just because they can move doesn't make the infestation they require to function any less static.
To be honest, I hate the idea of limits on things. To me, it represents a failure somewhere else along the line. However, my primary idea for a solution to ARC spam involves ARC batteries, so I think people would be more receptive to a straight limit.
But as others said, if the Marines can build that many in the first place, limiting ARCs won't save the Aliens. They're already boned as it is if they've given up that many RTs and let the Marines hold that many RTs.
The so called "good game equilibrium" is marines with 3 tech points, aliens with 2. That's 3 res nodes defended by default as well as at least 2 surrounded by marine territory. As I've said, 5 resource towers pumps out one ARC every 18 seconds, which, considering the build time is essentially constant flow.
Now, most commanders shy away from this strategy because they think it won't work, and a lot of the time it doesn't, and you end up with a bile of scorched scrap metal and no res. But when it does work, it is a thoroughly unenjoyable experience for both sides, and an incredibly brief one.
This is the primary problem. ARCs are an all in spam strategy. One which ends either with every ARC being destroyed by a single gorge in about 10 seconds of bile bombing, or with the enemy hive being destroyed in 10 seconds or less. No tension, no struggle, no chance for redemption after failure for either team. If you limit the the number of ARCs, but make them more durable, and easily reinforced, you can create a long drawn out siege process, full of tension and struggle, with plenty of chances for either team to redeem themselves after failure.
everyone is getting hung up on the balance issue, this was not the main point. the point is why is any team able to make so many entities that it leads to a server crash, this is what needs fixing.
As for balance to stop a mass of whips you only need to take out the cysts to clear infestation and the whips become useless, there is no similar fast way of disabling a large number of arcs as ink cloud doesn't stop them shooting at all and the need no special ground to deploy like the whips do.
Again this balance issue is not the main issue im raising, there needs to be an upper limit on in-game entities to stop someone from being able to crash a server.
The so called "good game equilibrium" is marines with 3 tech points, aliens with 2. That's 3 res nodes defended by default as well as at least 2 surrounded by marine territory. As I've said, 5 resource towers pumps out one ARC every 18 seconds, which, considering the build time is essentially constant flow.
Now, most commanders shy away from this strategy because they think it won't work, and a lot of the time it doesn't, and you end up with a bile of scorched scrap metal and no res. But when it does work, it is a thoroughly unenjoyable experience for both sides, and an incredibly brief one.
This is the primary problem. ARCs are an all in spam strategy. One which ends either with every ARC being destroyed by a single gorge in about 10 seconds of bile bombing, or with the enemy hive being destroyed in 10 seconds or less. No tension, no struggle, no chance for redemption after failure for either team. If you limit the the number of ARCs, but make them more durable, and easily reinforced, you can create a long drawn out siege process, full of tension and struggle, with plenty of chances for either team to redeem themselves after failure.
But focusing entirely on ARCs means you more or less give up the rest of your Com job. No nanogriding marines, no ammo drops, no health packs, no building expansion forward bases. That is pretty dangerous.
But ARCs were never meant to be not supported. The best ARC strategy I've used is to preplan where the ARCs are going to go, mine that area up BEFORE the ARCs get there, and then defend it from Gorges. The mines pretty much shutdown Skulk attacks as soon as they hit an ARC they get blown up.
What you are proposing is to essentially make ARCs standalone units without need for support. And ARCs were never meant to be that.
If ARCs need a change, just make them longer to build and cost 20~25 res. Besides, limiting ARCs when Marines can build 50 of them just means that they'll go mass EXOs and MACs. Aliens are still totally screwed. 750 in Res buys 10 Exos or 150 MACs. Lots of ARCis just a manifestation of Alien failure to either take RTs or harass them.
I'm not in favor of making ARCs standalone as this is a team game. That said, I do have to remind people to let the ARCs do the work and guard the ARCs.
I made a suggestion on this quite some time ago. OP's screenshot is a pretty extreme example, but I completely agree that it's silly to let Marine be able to build an infinite amount of ARCs. My suggestion was to limit the number of ARCs per Robotics Factory, and limit the number of Robotics Factories to 1 per Command Chair.
Arguing for a limit on arcs for server performance reasons is a moot point.
The comm can build as many armouries, arms labs, observatories, etc as he likes. The Khamm can put down many, many cysts (which are a huge load on the server), and of course all the other buildings, too.
This is essentially 1 known case where, on some server somewhere, about 50 arcs were made. This is not a frequent occurrence, and clearly wasn't intended to crash the server - in any case, if it was intended to crash the server and an arc limit was set, the comm could have spammed armouries or other buildings to achieve the same effect instead.
If arcs get a limit then so should the whip marches (if they don't already have one).
Just go play on another server
Whips cannot take out a comm chair from another room...
And ARCs can't kill players and teleport around the map.
What's your point?
My point is; why do whips need a limit just because arc do?
Whips have a completly different purpose and use than arcs.
Comparing apples to oranges.
Not when they do the whip march it is to kill the com chair and there is usually a crap load of them. They do kill players at the same time (which arcs do not) so I think it makes them equal if not more deadly than the arcs To be fair to the marines you'd have to limit the whips in return. I don't see why one team should have to suffer, make it fair for both and then let them duke it out.
BTW, let it be known I am not advocating for limiting either.
@ SUPER_GORGE, I did not say what you quoted me as saying in your post... that was strofix.
@ strofix, whips can be uprooted and walk/move around like arcs do.
If arcs get a limit then so should the whip marches (if they don't already have one).
Just go play on another server
Whips cannot take out a comm chair from another room...
And ARCs can't kill players and teleport around the map.
What's your point?
My point is; why do whips need a limit just because arc do?
Whips have a completly different purpose and use than arcs.
Comparing apples to oranges.
Not when they do the whip march it is to kill the com chair and there is usually a crap load of them. They do kill players at the same time (which arcs do not) so I think it makes them equal if not more deadly than the arcs To be fair to the marines you'd have to limit the whips in return. I don't see why one team should have to suffer, make it fair for both and then let them duke it out.
BTW, let it be known I am not advocating for limiting either.
Except Whips need to be placed on infestation to even work. You can unroot them and move them around, but you have to place them on infestation to have them attack stuff. ARCs can move anywhere, AND be deployed on infestation.
Comments
As many as feels appropriate considering the power and cost of said bullets.
MAC cost? 5 res
ARC cost? 15 res
MAC build time? 5 seconds
ARC build time? 10 seconds
MAC research cost? 10 res for robotics factory
ARC research cost? 10 res for robotics factory + 15 res for ARC factory
MAC speed? 4.5 (base) 6.75 (upgraded)
ARC speed? 3.0
I could go on, but let's be honest - MACs are cheap and easy to get, they build fast and move fast.
Drifters? They cost 3 res, build in 4 seconds and move at 7 speed.
ARCs cost double what MACs do, take twice as long to build, and then crawl across the map at a snails pace. I've never heard of a competitive game where ARCs were ever a problem like this. This tells me that this is more a problem of players failing to control marine expansion.
There has got to be FIFTY ARCs in that picture, if not more. That's 500 freaking res! LOL!
Not infinite then? But limits are soooo unimaginative!
Artificial limit =/= "limit" based on cost and efficiency.
Derp more please.
what's the point in having more than 5 ARC's ?? they clear a hive room in 2-3 scans... making 50 ARC's is retarded because you're lagging the server, wasting res on 1000% overkill and making it more tedious (but not harder) to kill.
aliens can have number of onos = number of players. marines can have infinite arcs + number of players. imo 5 ARC's is plenty, if you can't do the job with 5 ARC's then you don't deserve to succeed with that 'wave'.
Again, I think the economy of the game is a soft limit on ARCs as many have already said. Aliens have enough tools to deal with them. A hard limit for server stability seems fair but it should be really high to the point where crash is certain.
When they become any problem the other team already won eons ago on res alone.
Whenever you find yourself using the term "but that's different", always question yourself, and ask just how different it really is.
Agreed, UWE did their typical move and nerfed every aspect of something that *might* have needed a slight nerf.
With that aside, there is a cap to BB stacking. The DOT stacks 4 times on a structure and after that it's just the initial damage from any other BBs.
One is based on resources and power, while the other is based on "someone can possibly troll with it"?
Hmm.
Yup, it's pretty goddamn different.
Are we done?
5 Arcs is too restrictive. If i want to save up and ARC say (on veil) Nano, Sub, and Pipe at the same time i need 5 per area if i am not relying on my team. Some will get killed in transit and other taken down during the act. My point is if another team was allowed to make that many arcs the other team needed to concede/f4.
If it hits the servers that hard then make a ultimate limit that will never affect game play. Like a 30-50 ARC limit. Anywhere in that range will not hinder game play while still allowing for a overkill victory. Only the devs can tell us how much ARC spam kills servers. Because by that time if that many arcs are made i believe aliens structures aren't plentiful at that point or will soon be eliminated.
You've never gotten ready to send 5 or 6 arcs to hit a hive while having one in each base to deter nearby defense nests and sent 2 or 3 to another location as a decoy?
I've done this multiple times and I'm barely mediocre at the micromanaging. I could see a reasonable limit per arc factory, but that just means I'll make more factories.
I invite you to go back a page and read what your argument was. You clearly stated that limits were not balancing tools, and that they were cheap and unimaginative.
Now, if you wish to revise your stand point, I welcome you to. However, from the perspective of limits, there is no difference between the limit on the number of bullets in a magazine, and how many ARCs a team can produce.
Hard Limits are not the way to go. If you have to limit them, make them more expensive, or take longer to do something. But really, I think arcs are fine. The biggest problems are in the maps, not the arcs.
You knew full well I was talking about artificial limits. Taking the word "limit" and applying it to anything you can and then poking me with it, is childish.
If you didn't know I was talking about artificial limits, then I apologize, and consequently stop taking you seriously in anything.
Just go play on another server
Whips cannot take out a comm chair from another room...
And ARCs can't kill players and teleport around the map.
What's your point?
My point is; why do whips need a limit just because arc do?
Whips have a completly different purpose and use than arcs.
Comparing apples to oranges.
But if you can build that many anyways, it's really not going to matter.
I personally like the 11 arc push. Played a game where the Com built 11, ninja them into a hive, deployed at once and killed the hive instantly. No warning. Just insta-hive-death. 3 or 4 ARCs gives away to the Aliens what you're up to. And 11 ARCs isn't that expensive.
But that requires marines not to shoot anything as the ARCs ride in.
But as others said, if the Marines can build that many in the first place, limiting ARCs won't save the Aliens. They're already boned as it is if they've given up that many RTs and let the Marines hold that many RTs.
Whips are stationery objects. Just because they can move doesn't make the infestation they require to function any less static.
To be honest, I hate the idea of limits on things. To me, it represents a failure somewhere else along the line. However, my primary idea for a solution to ARC spam involves ARC batteries, so I think people would be more receptive to a straight limit.
The so called "good game equilibrium" is marines with 3 tech points, aliens with 2. That's 3 res nodes defended by default as well as at least 2 surrounded by marine territory. As I've said, 5 resource towers pumps out one ARC every 18 seconds, which, considering the build time is essentially constant flow.
Now, most commanders shy away from this strategy because they think it won't work, and a lot of the time it doesn't, and you end up with a bile of scorched scrap metal and no res. But when it does work, it is a thoroughly unenjoyable experience for both sides, and an incredibly brief one.
This is the primary problem. ARCs are an all in spam strategy. One which ends either with every ARC being destroyed by a single gorge in about 10 seconds of bile bombing, or with the enemy hive being destroyed in 10 seconds or less. No tension, no struggle, no chance for redemption after failure for either team. If you limit the the number of ARCs, but make them more durable, and easily reinforced, you can create a long drawn out siege process, full of tension and struggle, with plenty of chances for either team to redeem themselves after failure.
As for balance to stop a mass of whips you only need to take out the cysts to clear infestation and the whips become useless, there is no similar fast way of disabling a large number of arcs as ink cloud doesn't stop them shooting at all and the need no special ground to deploy like the whips do.
Again this balance issue is not the main issue im raising, there needs to be an upper limit on in-game entities to stop someone from being able to crash a server.
But focusing entirely on ARCs means you more or less give up the rest of your Com job. No nanogriding marines, no ammo drops, no health packs, no building expansion forward bases. That is pretty dangerous.
But ARCs were never meant to be not supported. The best ARC strategy I've used is to preplan where the ARCs are going to go, mine that area up BEFORE the ARCs get there, and then defend it from Gorges. The mines pretty much shutdown Skulk attacks as soon as they hit an ARC they get blown up.
What you are proposing is to essentially make ARCs standalone units without need for support. And ARCs were never meant to be that.
If ARCs need a change, just make them longer to build and cost 20~25 res. Besides, limiting ARCs when Marines can build 50 of them just means that they'll go mass EXOs and MACs. Aliens are still totally screwed. 750 in Res buys 10 Exos or 150 MACs. Lots of ARCis just a manifestation of Alien failure to either take RTs or harass them.
I'm not in favor of making ARCs standalone as this is a team game. That said, I do have to remind people to let the ARCs do the work and guard the ARCs.
I made a suggestion on this quite some time ago. OP's screenshot is a pretty extreme example, but I completely agree that it's silly to let Marine be able to build an infinite amount of ARCs. My suggestion was to limit the number of ARCs per Robotics Factory, and limit the number of Robotics Factories to 1 per Command Chair.
The comm can build as many armouries, arms labs, observatories, etc as he likes. The Khamm can put down many, many cysts (which are a huge load on the server), and of course all the other buildings, too.
This is essentially 1 known case where, on some server somewhere, about 50 arcs were made. This is not a frequent occurrence, and clearly wasn't intended to crash the server - in any case, if it was intended to crash the server and an arc limit was set, the comm could have spammed armouries or other buildings to achieve the same effect instead.
This simply isn't an issue!
Not when they do the whip march it is to kill the com chair and there is usually a crap load of them. They do kill players at the same time (which arcs do not) so I think it makes them equal if not more deadly than the arcs To be fair to the marines you'd have to limit the whips in return. I don't see why one team should have to suffer, make it fair for both and then let them duke it out.
BTW, let it be known I am not advocating for limiting either.
@ SUPER_GORGE, I did not say what you quoted me as saying in your post... that was strofix.
@ strofix, whips can be uprooted and walk/move around like arcs do.
Except Whips need to be placed on infestation to even work. You can unroot them and move them around, but you have to place them on infestation to have them attack stuff. ARCs can move anywhere, AND be deployed on infestation.