Why I don't play NS2 - Audio Feedback
Crispy
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
For me, 2 crucial aspects of game audio are lacking. These on their own remind me that this is an incomplete FPS product and also hamper my ability to play the game. Sure, everyone's hampered equally, but I have a low tolerance for this type of thing.
1. Alien feedback for damage received
When I am taking damage I do not have local impact SFX for each shot that hits me. Watching other players makes it obvious that everyone suffers from this. I often see Skulks run out in a doorway trying to land a Parasite. They stand motionless while they lose half their health, and once their audio cuts out at super low health they attempt a retreat and it only takes 1 last bullet to cut them down. There needs to be clear SFX when you take damage and it should play more loudly than most other audio at all times.
2. Alien feedback for damage dealt
When I am attacking, especially when biting, I need to be able to hear when I am dealing damage. In NS2, as in NS1, special SFX plays for a successful bite. However, in NS2 this sound effect in both its design and its relative volume level, is inferior to what we had in NS1. In NS1 there was a spectacular, bone-crunching sound whenever you struck an enemy or a structure. And it was loud! It was clearly audible over everything happening around you, because when you are 4 centimetres away from the barrel of a shotgun the most important thing you want to know is how much longer that shotgun's master has to live. Typically, his lifespan is measured in bites, so being able to hear these bites helps.
This sound effect has 2 very important roles:
i) It gives you feedback for when you are dealing damage. This helps you understand how much resilience the Marines have at certain points throughout the match. It's critical because Marines can be more resilient if they have unlocked armour upgrades. Knowing when they have unlocked a new Armour upgrade is very important information you need to relay back to your team as soon as you discover it.
ii) It helps you learn NS2's flavour of melee combat. Typically FPS games don't involve a significant level of melee combat. Melee is usually a secondary or even a tertiary resort, it's not a primary method of despatching your enemies. Most players aren't very good at melee in FPS games, certainly not as good as they are at shooting things. What's more, for those games that do have melee, whether a rifle butt or a combat knife, the ranges vary quite a bit between games. Some games treat a 10-inch knife blade like a 4-foot halberd. Some games on the other hand force you to get up real close and personal before you can make use of a melee strike. When you get instant audio feedback that you've landed a bite or another type of melee strike, you can form a picture of your 3D melee range. This information is critical to being able to duel competently in NS2. One of the things I learnt in NS1 is that Skulks can bite Marines to the side of them. Knowing that I could start a bite animation and wheel around to catch a Marine circling around behind me allowed me to be a lot more lethal as a Skulk. There are probably other 'isms' about melee in NS2 that I have yet to learn because I don't spend as much time playing the game (if you 'fumble around in the dark' long enough, eventually you'll find the door knob).
The good news:
These are relatively simple fixes that will dramatically improve gameplay.
The bad news:
Once these fixes are made, Aliens will likely get a LOT stronger, probably throughout all phases of the game. This will require quite a bit of rebalancing to make combat fair between Aliens and Marines at different phases of the game.
Regardless, these issues need to be addressed. They are undermining two of the most common scenarios in the game by blocking out feedback to the player and making the game frustrating to play.
This is why I don't play NS2.
1. Alien feedback for damage received
When I am taking damage I do not have local impact SFX for each shot that hits me. Watching other players makes it obvious that everyone suffers from this. I often see Skulks run out in a doorway trying to land a Parasite. They stand motionless while they lose half their health, and once their audio cuts out at super low health they attempt a retreat and it only takes 1 last bullet to cut them down. There needs to be clear SFX when you take damage and it should play more loudly than most other audio at all times.
2. Alien feedback for damage dealt
When I am attacking, especially when biting, I need to be able to hear when I am dealing damage. In NS2, as in NS1, special SFX plays for a successful bite. However, in NS2 this sound effect in both its design and its relative volume level, is inferior to what we had in NS1. In NS1 there was a spectacular, bone-crunching sound whenever you struck an enemy or a structure. And it was loud! It was clearly audible over everything happening around you, because when you are 4 centimetres away from the barrel of a shotgun the most important thing you want to know is how much longer that shotgun's master has to live. Typically, his lifespan is measured in bites, so being able to hear these bites helps.
This sound effect has 2 very important roles:
i) It gives you feedback for when you are dealing damage. This helps you understand how much resilience the Marines have at certain points throughout the match. It's critical because Marines can be more resilient if they have unlocked armour upgrades. Knowing when they have unlocked a new Armour upgrade is very important information you need to relay back to your team as soon as you discover it.
ii) It helps you learn NS2's flavour of melee combat. Typically FPS games don't involve a significant level of melee combat. Melee is usually a secondary or even a tertiary resort, it's not a primary method of despatching your enemies. Most players aren't very good at melee in FPS games, certainly not as good as they are at shooting things. What's more, for those games that do have melee, whether a rifle butt or a combat knife, the ranges vary quite a bit between games. Some games treat a 10-inch knife blade like a 4-foot halberd. Some games on the other hand force you to get up real close and personal before you can make use of a melee strike. When you get instant audio feedback that you've landed a bite or another type of melee strike, you can form a picture of your 3D melee range. This information is critical to being able to duel competently in NS2. One of the things I learnt in NS1 is that Skulks can bite Marines to the side of them. Knowing that I could start a bite animation and wheel around to catch a Marine circling around behind me allowed me to be a lot more lethal as a Skulk. There are probably other 'isms' about melee in NS2 that I have yet to learn because I don't spend as much time playing the game (if you 'fumble around in the dark' long enough, eventually you'll find the door knob).
The good news:
These are relatively simple fixes that will dramatically improve gameplay.
The bad news:
Once these fixes are made, Aliens will likely get a LOT stronger, probably throughout all phases of the game. This will require quite a bit of rebalancing to make combat fair between Aliens and Marines at different phases of the game.
Regardless, these issues need to be addressed. They are undermining two of the most common scenarios in the game by blocking out feedback to the player and making the game frustrating to play.
This is why I don't play NS2.
Comments
More like this is why I don't play alien. That and the trouble I have had ever since gorgeous when it comes to jumping after a shadowstep. I played alien almost exclusively til gorgeous, now I refuse to play alien.
The bite sound effect is loud enough for me, I know when I'm doing damage because of the SFX.
If I can't tell from the SFX, the Draw Damage is shown on the screen.
As for taking damage... no alien should really be sitting still for that long anyway...
I would recommend jumping from one side of a doorway to another while parasiting, assuming that you have line-of-sight and decent aim.
The real issue is the slight difference in where your position is client-side versus server-side and the delay attached to it. I think thats what you're experiencing.
Like when you've turned a corner to escape and you somehow died after you've already turned the corner.
In actuality, you've already died before turning the corner and there is a delay in recognizing your true position.
The easiest way to see this effect is to fly through a door as a lerk.
It seems like you fly into the door, but the door has already opened and you've already flown through.
I'm sure though that issues like that are being worked out constantly by the UWE team.
But if that is the only reason you don't play NS2, I must say... thats a weak reason.
And I hate to be the guy who says L2P.... but... you need to L2P.
Try relying on Draw Damage more until you've gotten a better feel for the skulk firing cone and the 2 glancing bite cones. And practicing parasiting marines while moving, rather than standing still. A lerk never roosts or sits on the floor while spiking unless they want to die or are confident they can escape, a skulk shouldn't either, nor should a gorge... Or any alien really.
Also, I noticed that when I play with my headphone, the Music Volume is goddamn louder than a bald eagle killing a raptor with a chainsaw.
Just turn down the Game Music Volume.
Up the Sound Effect Volume.
I still think we're talking about the same thing;
Which is the delay between when you actually took damage or dealt damage versus when that damage is recognized client-side.
ex: You received 40 damage in 1 second server-side. There is a 1 second delay before the damage is recognized client-side. You lose 1 second of reaction time and can potentially die.
This delay in server-side/client-side communication is also responsible for positioning delays. Where you truly are (server-side) versus where you perceive to be. (client-side)
ex: You have 10 hp remaining and run around a corner and die from a bullet that has seemingly followed you around the corner. Client-side, you perceive to have already turned the corner and are alive, then die 1 second later. Server-side, you have already died from a bullet 1 second ago when you were not around the corner.
You see what I'm trying to say?
My solution to this for now is just be extra careful
Be as knowledgeable as possible about the armor/weapon upgrades of the marines.
Be aware of your escape routes and how many marines you are engaging.
Always stay moving, unless ambushing. If you're always moving and are aware of your movements and the room's layout, you will have ample time to reacte to most situations.
However, the delay does exist and people will inevitably die because of it.
Just hope that UWE finds a way to decrease the delay.
edit: I'm not saying that OP is bad at the game for having an opinion.
I'm just saying that skulks shouldn't be standing still to parasite in most cases.
And that Draw Damage exists as visual feedback for when you deal damage.
And that the current audio feedback is plenty good enough and loud enough.
And that those are not really big enough issues to not play a game. At least for me.
If OP can't distinguish between the SFX of biting air, metal and flesh, then he should play more cause those sound effects are quite loud and unique.
I can't seem to fix it for some reason.
I'll just recap my points real quick.
There is a delay between client-side (perceived location/health) versus server-side (true location/health).
This delay causes you to lose reaction time.
The issue is not the audio feedback.
The audio feedback for biting flesh, metal or air is currently loud and easily distinguishable.
Its the delay between server-side and client-side communication that causes aliens or marines to die, seemingly instantaeously or around corners when escaping.
I'm sure UWE is fixing the issue as we speak.
Oh, oops.
I think i got you and OP mixed up.
So I guess we agree. lol
even if you try biting an extractor and moving back and forth, it ticks up so slowly that you can't even tell which bites are glancing and which ones aren't
hitbeeps are an excellent way to solve this, but the audio feedback for a lot of things just doesn't work - for example silent pistols can lead to you getting sniped and realizing it too late
damage received is another big one - if I'm not mistaken, lifeforms in NS1 would make different damage noises depending on how low health they were so you could generally tell (if I'm wrong about NS1, this is also a feature in many other competitive shooters).
don't settle for acceptable, polish allows games to have sustainability and appeal to a general audience ;/
You can clearly hear the difference between a missed bite and one that landed.
You can clearly see the damage you've dealt too, but yes more identifying sounds would help.
Same for lifeform damage noises.. they happen, but depth could be added for even more feedback.
This small difference is enough to stop you from playing? :-/
I disagree it's clearly audible in an actual gameplay scenario. And, yes, the fact the main combat interaction you have as an Alien is lacking reliable feedback for both damage dealt and damage received is enough to put me off playing NS2.
That is not what I'm experiencing. I have worked at a multiplayer first-person shooter game developer for the past 4 years. I know the difference between a latency issue and a pure audio issue. The issue is that you only get audio feedback when you reach certain HP thresholds (one is a squeal and one is a dampened audio filter). You get no local audio feedback for a single LMG shot hitting you. You need this SFX because it tells you:
A) that someone has spotted you
C) how good an aim they are
I played the original NS for more than 5 years, solidly. My FPS multiplayer experience goes back to QuakeWorld. I have been playing FPSes for over a decade and I am a perfectly competent FPS player. I'm not rage-quitting because I'm not doing well at the game, it's because this is a fairly standard component of an FPS game and it doesn't currently exist in NS2.
Relying on debug output is not a solution to an issue with the core gameplay. I'm honestly curious how many people are using this as a crutch to work around a major issue, without fully acknowledging it. I'd be interested to see if there would be a huge outcry if the devs were to hardcode it off in the next release.
This is nothing to do with what I'm describing. I did double-check just in case you were onto something. It makes no difference.
I Never have to guess, i can clearly identify the "Cabbage Crunch" sound against the typical lion roar bite.
Even in practical cluttered environments you still have the large amount of visually indicating red blood, lathered across the jaws of your screen, mixed with dancing yellow damage numbers near your crosshair?
Again i'm not arguing that more isn't needed.. but not being able to notice it seems odd to me personally - if anything i'd like the sounds turned down in volume so i can hear approaching enemies and friendlies instead. But that's me and my hardware. Maybe its down to your sound setup or hearing, idk?
Thanks for replying to all my points!
But I still disagree with the audio feedback not being good enough.
I'll have to agree with ironhorse here...
There's plenty of feedback, both audio and visual.
it really isn't an exaggeration. try doing that test - just walk slowly back and forth while biting an extractor. do you know how many glancing bites you dealt, if any? if the answer is no then the feedback system clearly does not work. we've been asking for the damage numbers to be more useful for a long time - for example, an option to disable the 'ticking up' feature (it's been shown to be buggy and is for the most part not very good at conveying information)
The whole goal (or at least in my mind) of lag compensation is so that people can play online with higher pings than normal, compare to quake 3 if you try to play online with above 80 ping, well you might as well just throw your mouse off your desk because you won't be landing any shots unless you're aiming ahead of the person
The issue with it is, when playing a game where you have a good latency with the server, and a relatively low ping with other players (30 ping from both clients) there's still that artificial delay, which causes things like peeker advantage (aka the person in movement is updating the fastest) or dying after already rounding a corner
I believe the things that decrease this, are, it being lowered server side (which I think is controlled by UWE) at the moment, raising tic rate (which is also controlled server side atm) and if there's any extra client side (which I doubt we can control) that can be lowered too
Please be aware I don't fully understand the concept, but I believe I'm slightly right with the point of it, and how it has negative impact to people playing on a server with good connection. Hence why LAN play feels so much better on many of the modern games.
But if you play a game like quake with a normal ping, you'll notice outstanding hit registry and none of the dying around walls nonsense
I just have a standard 5.1 stero surround sound logitech speaker system.
And I ocassionally play with headphones, sometimes with earbuds.
Regardless of what I use as an audio output device, I don't seem to have any trouble distinguishing sounds.
I have my master volume set to max.
and ingame music volume set to 50%
and ingame sound effect volume set to 90%
With realtek audio drivers
What is your set up?
Maybe it could be that your audio set-up is causing you to not hear the sound effects so well. Maybe not though. I also have optimal hearing in both ears last time I went to an ear doctor. With the exception of some ear wax. I did have one of my ear drums damaged though like 6 years ago, but that healed up completely now.
Any more info ya need?
Yes there is. There is an audio sound that plays when you get hit by enemy fire. Not only that, but a visual indicator as well.
There is also different audio sounds that play when you are actually biting something compared to biting thin air and 2 visual indicator differences as well. I usually just pay attention to damage numbers popping up if I'm hitting the or not rather than listening for sounds.
this is true, on mineshaft the water fall near pilot drill phases in and out when there's a lot going on, but i think it's to play more important sounds, however it's still kind of funky
Yes, you're the only one
Yes, you're the only one