The problem is in the power. Who has the right to 'dictate' "obvious cheaters"?
The consensus of a large number of people who play the game, and possibly nobody else?
A public display of evidence is by far the most reasonable way to handle it, it's why that's how actual legal stuff works, it exposes it to the greatest amount of expertise possible and makes it hard to manipulate, when it all has to be presented thoroughly.
The problem here is that the great majority of NS2 players are extremely weak compared to top-level competitive players. This would in effect get a majority of the sincerely good top-level players banned because your average ground rocket skulk won't know the difference between skill and aimbot or experience and wallhack.
It's like choosing a board of laymen to judge a figure skating contest, because, hey, they only fell down twice the last time they were on ice.
That's exactly what you do do, though, in law. Choose a bunch of idiots off the street to decide what to do in a case they know sod all about, based entirely on what people tell them.
Put it this way, by keeping it behind closed doors, there is no assurance anything is being done, no evidence of any progress being made, frankly no reason to assume anybody is doing anything because there's no accountability, and no oversight, because the oversight are the ones making the decisions.
If, under public scrutiny, someone gets convicted entirely due to the blathering of a mindless rabble, that will be evident, because it's being done in the open, and if you object to that sort of thing, you can object, in the open, where people can see it. If many people object, then you can reform the process.
Saying 'nobody post anything about anything relating to this subject, it doesn't exist, don't discuss it' really doesn't inspire much confidence in me. If it is a problem, sweeping it under the rug doesn't seem very helpful. If it isn't a problem, it will be obvious that it isn't a problem when no substantial evidence can be produced.
The problem is in the power. Who has the right to 'dictate' "obvious cheaters"?
The consensus of a large number of people who play the game, and possibly nobody else?
A public display of evidence is by far the most reasonable way to handle it, it's why that's how actual legal stuff works, it exposes it to the greatest amount of expertise possible and makes it hard to manipulate, when it all has to be presented thoroughly.
The problem here is that the great majority of NS2 players are extremely weak compared to top-level competitive players. This would in effect get a majority of the sincerely good top-level players banned because your average ground rocket skulk won't know the difference between skill and aimbot or experience and wallhack.
It's like choosing a board of laymen to judge a figure skating contest, because, hey, they only fell down twice the last time they were on ice.
Good players that pub stomp would end up getting banned if we didn't post the evidence for other more experienced players to verify.
Edit: Just add a "this player is a verified pro" badge or something like that and be done with it. That way legitimate players won't get a bad rep.
That's exactly what you do do, though, in law. Choose a bunch of idiots off the street to decide what to do in a case they know sod all about, based entirely on what people tell them.
...in the US. That's a very, very important addition.
The problem here is that since there is no authoritative and capable 'police force' or jury in the NS2 community, just a soiled reputation can get you banned from several servers. And this reputation can get soiled just by one rambling idiot making opinionated accusations and posting a recorded video of some fine NS2 gameplay, which some of the less excellent community authorities will accept as 'obvious proof' in their fit of mob mentality. In that sense, public name dropping is never a good idea.
That's exactly what you do do, though, in law. Choose a bunch of idiots off the street to decide what to do in a case they know sod all about, based entirely on what people tell them.
Having been on a jury, I can tell you its more sophisticated then that. The process is heavily guided by the judge to ensure the questioning, evidence, and trial proceed according to a very strict set of rules intended to be as fair as possible. Unless you have a NS2 'judge-equivalent' the process can easily devolve into a mob, which is why its primarily left up to the server admins in question (they effectively become the judge, but for their specific server).
However, I do think NS2 would benefit from a centralized location where people could submit evidence of griefing/exploiting/cheating/hacking. I've always liked the steambans approach and would love to see an equivalent (NS2bans.com?) be implemented in NS2.
Seems weird how every single thread about NS2 trolls results in a 'Report to the relevant server admins' but a thread about hackers turns into a 'Nah, you don't go out and victimize good players! Admins shouldn't just make that call!'
Especially when most people here are talking about using FPV and recorded demos to make a case. Damn, anyone that has looked at the CPL Garroway vids, or @halfofaheaven 's youtube vid should know that THOSE PEOPLE ARE CHEATING. 1:28 seconds and onwards...How the HELL isn't that conclusive. Competent players should beable to picture the fade moving back to the hive to heal and realize the rail shots follow that movement.
The best tools people have at their disposal at the moment are FPV demos. There is nothing else, and even then that isn't conclusive. A few stupid, caution to the wind cheaters showing up on UWE in youtube vids doesn't mean crap. People who know what they are doing can easily fool FPV demos. All you have to do is act like you are in primary school and crossing the street.
Look right, look left, look right again. GG, throw your demo out.
It's so awesome how so many people are supporting UWE through casting, promoting the game, helping rookies, running tutorial vids and trying to further the game in general. To me it's a shame that cheating seems to be a taboo subject to bring up. Had a hard enough time trying to get the AUS community to enforce screenshots pre-live and on disconnect for all CG and NSL matches and still nothing has come of it.
Cheating is out there, it's easily available and to this point in time UWE hasn't acted on it. Server admins should beable to use FPV videos to ban players they feel are cheating. If you get banned from a server and are not cheating...it probably means you are too good for that server anyway.
That's exactly what you do do, though, in law. Choose a bunch of idiots off the street to decide what to do in a case they know sod all about, based entirely on what people tell them.
Having been on a jury, I can tell you its more sophisticated then that. The process is heavily guided by the judge to ensure the questioning, evidence, and trial proceed according to a very strict set of rules intended to be as fair as possible. Unless you have a NS2 'judge-equivalent' the process can easily devolve into a mob, which is why its primarily left up to the server admins in question (they effectively become the judge, but for their specific server).
However, I do think NS2 would benefit from a centralized location where people could submit evidence of griefing/exploiting/cheating/hacking. I've always liked the steambans approach and would love to see an equivalent (NS2bans.com?) be implemented in NS2.
The judge equivalent would be whoever is actually responsible for managing the ban list, and would necessarily be someone in a somewhat knowledgeable position because they'd have to be either a developer or an experienced server admin, or group of server admins.
The point is simply that their decisions and reasoning should be on display, so people can see what is being done about it, and decide whether their decisions are correct.
the idea behind the one I had set up was enough people reporting a players steam ID (names were left out for many reasons), would draw the attention to that listing. from there you could look at what people had to say and what they had posted (screens, video, etc). Everyone being welcome to post, but the individual server operator was going to have to choose what he/she felt was best for that server to use from the list.
*snip* let's not drag this out shall we -Kouji San
As for the comment you quoted I agree with him on the 2nd part. Admins aren't around 24-7 and they can't hear whats going on on the other team. Being an admin doesn't make you omniscient. The more people in your server that try to keep the peace the better.
1. VAC is useless.
2. Server admins are not always aware of every little thing that goes on in their servers.
Carry on.
Implying that it's not the best anticheat around?
Game developers, especially as small as UWE, can only dedicate so much time to hack prevention, while the actual hackers can dedicate all of their time to it. I'm sorry but I challenge you to name me a single anticheat that I can't google a hack for. Anyway, what's the other option? Punkbuster? *snip* please don't link to these kind of sites -Kouji San
edit: the link was to a questionable site, but it showed screenshots, videos and an explanation on how any server admin that has punkbuster enabled on their server can send a fake, but legit looking, global ban to PB's master ban list. it looked identical to an actual ban, so it's not like they'd know who was actually banned or not. the screenshots showed the guy banning his entire server as an example; http://i33.tinypic.com/28sv87b.jpg edit2: it also showed a screenshot of PB devs saying that they've known about the exploit for years, but can't fix it.
1. VAC is useless.
2. Server admins are not always aware of every little thing that goes on in their servers.
Carry on.
Implying that it's not the best anticheat around?
Game developers, especially as small as UWE, can only dedicate so much time to hack prevention, while the actual hackers can dedicate all of their time to it. I'm sorry but I challenge you to name me a single anticheat that I can't google a hack for. Anyway, what's the other option? Punkbuster? *snip* please don't link to these kind of sites -Kouji San
edit: the link was to a questionable site, but it showed screenshots, videos and an explanation on how any server admin that has punkbuster enabled on their server can send a fake, but legit looking, global ban to PB's master ban list. it looked identical to an actual ban, so it's not like they'd know who was actually banned or not. the screenshots showed the guy banning his entire server as an example; http://i33.tinypic.com/28sv87b.jpg edit2: it also showed a screenshot of PB devs saying that they've known about the exploit for years, but can't fix it.
Dude, I've hacked in tons of games. I know how this shit works. I honestly just don't want the idiots from this forum trying to run some global ban list.
So is it possible to post anything on these forums without someone censoring it or what
Oh I dunno, it's quite simple to not have your posts *snipped* actually. This encompasses, but is not limited to posting non-questionable/trolling/flamebaiting/illegal content, it really isn't that hard...
Dude, I've hacked in tons of games. I know how this shit works. I honestly just don't want the idiots from this forum trying to run some global ban list.
I can't say that I have ever really taken a dislike to you before, or ever attacked your character personally, and honestly your statement is flat out reeks of self importance and immaturity.
What you lack: The knowledge of who is behind the avatar. Many people post here, whom you know simply by screen name, you know nothing about the actual person behind the name or their personal character , you simply just lumped into one giant ball " the idiots from this forum". When you pull your head out of your ass, I'll be more than happy to read your future posts.
I would also like to call upon the powers of the great Kouji_San, as this thread appears to be headed down a road that many have gone down before : * (
Oh great and wise Kouji_San, please see fit to close this topic, and all who dwell in this topic.. please see that this topic has served it's purpose, and is now full of insults and hate, in your name I call thread closed -
Dude, I've hacked in tons of games. I know how this shit works. I honestly just don't want the idiots from this forum trying to run some global ban list.
please see that this topic has served it's purpose, and is now full of insults and hate, in your name I call thread closed -
I was about to lock it a few posts back, but I always have a tiny bit of faith that derailed topics mights go into a more positive or normal direction... This one however has not and is as such, done... Seriously guys, grow up
Comments
That's exactly what you do do, though, in law. Choose a bunch of idiots off the street to decide what to do in a case they know sod all about, based entirely on what people tell them.
Put it this way, by keeping it behind closed doors, there is no assurance anything is being done, no evidence of any progress being made, frankly no reason to assume anybody is doing anything because there's no accountability, and no oversight, because the oversight are the ones making the decisions.
If, under public scrutiny, someone gets convicted entirely due to the blathering of a mindless rabble, that will be evident, because it's being done in the open, and if you object to that sort of thing, you can object, in the open, where people can see it. If many people object, then you can reform the process.
Saying 'nobody post anything about anything relating to this subject, it doesn't exist, don't discuss it' really doesn't inspire much confidence in me. If it is a problem, sweeping it under the rug doesn't seem very helpful. If it isn't a problem, it will be obvious that it isn't a problem when no substantial evidence can be produced.
Good players that pub stomp would end up getting banned if we didn't post the evidence for other more experienced players to verify.
Edit: Just add a "this player is a verified pro" badge or something like that and be done with it. That way legitimate players won't get a bad rep.
...in the US. That's a very, very important addition.
The problem here is that since there is no authoritative and capable 'police force' or jury in the NS2 community, just a soiled reputation can get you banned from several servers. And this reputation can get soiled just by one rambling idiot making opinionated accusations and posting a recorded video of some fine NS2 gameplay, which some of the less excellent community authorities will accept as 'obvious proof' in their fit of mob mentality. In that sense, public name dropping is never a good idea.
However, I do think NS2 would benefit from a centralized location where people could submit evidence of griefing/exploiting/cheating/hacking. I've always liked the steambans approach and would love to see an equivalent (NS2bans.com?) be implemented in NS2.
Especially when most people here are talking about using FPV and recorded demos to make a case. Damn, anyone that has looked at the CPL Garroway vids, or @halfofaheaven 's youtube vid should know that THOSE PEOPLE ARE CHEATING. 1:28 seconds and onwards...How the HELL isn't that conclusive. Competent players should beable to picture the fade moving back to the hive to heal and realize the rail shots follow that movement.
The best tools people have at their disposal at the moment are FPV demos. There is nothing else, and even then that isn't conclusive. A few stupid, caution to the wind cheaters showing up on UWE in youtube vids doesn't mean crap. People who know what they are doing can easily fool FPV demos. All you have to do is act like you are in primary school and crossing the street.
Look right, look left, look right again. GG, throw your demo out.
It's so awesome how so many people are supporting UWE through casting, promoting the game, helping rookies, running tutorial vids and trying to further the game in general. To me it's a shame that cheating seems to be a taboo subject to bring up. Had a hard enough time trying to get the AUS community to enforce screenshots pre-live and on disconnect for all CG and NSL matches and still nothing has come of it.
Cheating is out there, it's easily available and to this point in time UWE hasn't acted on it. Server admins should beable to use FPV videos to ban players they feel are cheating. If you get banned from a server and are not cheating...it probably means you are too good for that server anyway.
1. VAC is useless.
2. Server admins are not always aware of every little thing that goes on in their servers.
Carry on.
Blasphemy! how dare you sir!
The judge equivalent would be whoever is actually responsible for managing the ban list, and would necessarily be someone in a somewhat knowledgeable position because they'd have to be either a developer or an experienced server admin, or group of server admins.
The point is simply that their decisions and reasoning should be on display, so people can see what is being done about it, and decide whether their decisions are correct.
*snip* "adults" *doublesnip* might want to contribute as an adult then, instead of flamebaiting -Kouji San
*snip* let's not drag this out shall we -Kouji San
As for the comment you quoted I agree with him on the 2nd part. Admins aren't around 24-7 and they can't hear whats going on on the other team. Being an admin doesn't make you omniscient. The more people in your server that try to keep the peace the better.
Implying that it's not the best anticheat around?
Game developers, especially as small as UWE, can only dedicate so much time to hack prevention, while the actual hackers can dedicate all of their time to it. I'm sorry but I challenge you to name me a single anticheat that I can't google a hack for. Anyway, what's the other option? Punkbuster?
*snip* please don't link to these kind of sites -Kouji San
edit: the link was to a questionable site, but it showed screenshots, videos and an explanation on how any server admin that has punkbuster enabled on their server can send a fake, but legit looking, global ban to PB's master ban list. it looked identical to an actual ban, so it's not like they'd know who was actually banned or not. the screenshots showed the guy banning his entire server as an example; http://i33.tinypic.com/28sv87b.jpg edit2: it also showed a screenshot of PB devs saying that they've known about the exploit for years, but can't fix it.
Dude, I've hacked in tons of games. I know how this shit works. I honestly just don't want the idiots from this forum trying to run some global ban list.
You think Obama is bad with taking are freedoms, these forums have gone 100% socilest!
On the plus side, it's the only aimbotter I've ever seen in ns2.
Oh I dunno, it's quite simple to not have your posts *snipped* actually. This encompasses, but is not limited to posting non-questionable/trolling/flamebaiting/illegal content, it really isn't that hard...
I can't say that I have ever really taken a dislike to you before, or ever attacked your character personally, and honestly your statement is flat out reeks of self importance and immaturity.
What you lack: The knowledge of who is behind the avatar. Many people post here, whom you know simply by screen name, you know nothing about the actual person behind the name or their personal character , you simply just lumped into one giant ball " the idiots from this forum". When you pull your head out of your ass, I'll be more than happy to read your future posts.
I would also like to call upon the powers of the great Kouji_San, as this thread appears to be headed down a road that many have gone down before : * (
Oh great and wise Kouji_San, please see fit to close this topic, and all who dwell in this topic.. please see that this topic has served it's purpose, and is now full of insults and hate, in your name I call thread closed -
Locked