matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
There is alot of people saying that carapace is stronger than celerity for skulks... I don't agree with that.
The added movement speed can help protect you from being shot in the first place. It also helps more against multiple marines. Carapace only helps you for 4 bullets. If celerity throws off just 4 bullets of aim then its already been stronger than carapace for combat.
Movement speed becomes even more important when the marines get weapon upgrades. A level 3 rifle kills a carapace skulk in just 10 shots! A shotgun can always kill a skulk in 1 hit.
Unfortunately, wall jumping and celerity don't quite stack - non-celerity skulks hits about 8.5 speed when walljumping, while celerity skulks gets ... 9.5. So the difference is ~10%, rather than the ~30% it should be.
Try it on a listenserver, with cheats 1 and debugspeed console commands.
It feels like the first few jumps with celerity don't even add to speed, I thought wall jumping was bugged in that regardless of celerity it starts adding speed off the skulk base speed of 7, so if you have celerity and run around at 9 you don't even notice the first 2-3 jumps doing anything, if more people understood that there would probably be a lot less shift hive going up.
It feels like the first few jumps with celerity don't even add to speed, I thought wall jumping was bugged in that regardless of celerity it starts adding speed off the skulk base speed of 7, so if you have celerity and run around at 9 you don't even notice the first 2-3 jumps doing anything, if more people understood that there would probably be a lot less shift hive going up.
I get shift first for.strategic.spawning, and if I see a lot of red on my scoreboard. I'll get celerity if I have res left over, because it helps marginally. ifmy scoreboard is white, I'll risk crag.first, or shade if people feel like they need the challenge/trolling the other team.
played one game where there was a new khamm, didn't respond to my initial query of, "can you please respond in some way?" both spoken and written, but not enough people felt like ejecting. anyway, goes shift first, throws up a couple rts, decides that whips are a gift from God. by this point, we're stuck Kb one hive with 3 res, so.what does he decide to do? throws down a spur and gets us adrenaline... a spur, and adrenaline... only. I think I must've spent 10 minutes straight asking for celerity. at this point he finally starts to respond to communications, turns out his volume was inadequate to the task, and I guess he just ignored the words on the screen. finally, 2 minutes before exos push in he informs us that he's getting celthe moral of the story, celerity is at least slightly useful to lower life forms, adren, not so.much.
There is alot of people saying that carapace is stronger than celerity for skulks... I don't agree with that.
The added movement speed can help protect you from being shot in the first place. It also helps more against multiple marines. Carapace only helps you for 4 bullets. If celerity throws off just 4 bullets of aim then its already been stronger than carapace for combat.
Movement speed becomes even more important when the marines get weapon upgrades. A level 3 rifle kills a carapace skulk in just 10 shots! A shotgun can always kill a skulk in 1 hit.
You shouldn't need the added movement speed because you should be ambushing. Thus, you're in combat as soon as the marine sees you. Thus, celerity isn't working. Therefore, carapace is a better upgrade.
there's also another point which is that carapace is consistent against good players and bad players.
i think any decent marine would prefer to face celerity skulks over carapace skulks.
I always go crag first, and most of the time we end up winning. Lots of people complain about not having celery though. I swear people don't even understand how it works, just think that's the "thing" to do.
I always go crag first, and most of the time we end up winning. Lots of people complain about not having celery though. I swear people don't even understand how it works, just think that's the "thing" to do.
There are people who were force-fed too much vegetables when they were kids.
2. Celerity doesn't actually do that much for skulks. Since it gives a fixed speed boost, it is less effective on fast units and more effective on slow units. Skulks, being relatively fast don't get a very big bonus. Gorges and Onos are the ones that benefit the most from it, and one is not available in early game, the other not very effective before you get a second hive up and bile bomb (at which point, most use adrenaline anyway).
I wish people would stop spreading misinformation by talking like they know the game mechanics when they don't.
Understanding the speed boost Celerity gives doesn't even need you to read the lua, because it's on the wiki: http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Celerity
As a further FYI:
// celerity kicks in after X seconds from last attack
kCelerityStart = .5
kCelerityBuildUpDuration = .5
kCelerityRampDownDuration = .2
I personally go shift hive first in 20+ player servers because people playing on those servers are usually more interested in just playing, and less on being strategic/intelligent/good.
Waiting on respawns because egglocked = not fun.
regen is too underrated. hiding & healing is not only quicker than respawning but it saves eggs too and gives more pres (because you stay alive)
also it's the best way to teach players how to play the game. skulking is about ambushing and picking fights you can win
in pubs the aim is quite bad so you can actually escape quite often and it's less about tanking 3 extra bullets and more about either dominating or getting dominated in a fight
I recently really like to go for a 7-9min fade with carapace and blink on 20+ slot servers. I get carapace first after i drop two harvesters. Second hive will be up at around 7min and by then i have enough res for blink and a fade-egg drop soon after. The only problem is, that not many players on pubs can play fade.
This strategy totally relies on one player being able to steamroll with a fade at 7-9min.
Every other strategy relies on some or most of your players to do well, while carapace is still a viable upgrade for my team early game.
So in general i am counting on one fade (or two fades) early-mid game while giving the rest of the team a decent upgrade for the early game. Last time i did that, i checked the pres and even the best skulk still needed 8pres to go fade. To get 8 pres with 4 Harvesters takes over 1min 30sec. A fade that early can be a gamechanger and it is the only way to win if u allready are behind.
All other strategies have way more variables to take into account. I basically trie to reduce it to one variable that i have to take care of.
All other strategies have way more variables to take into account. I basically trie to reduce it to one variable that i have to take care of.
What if the fade gets unlucky and dies?
A decent fadeplayer with blink and cara has to get very very unlucky to die inbetween 2min. And even if he does get unlucky, skulks still have carapace and it only takes 1-2min for most of the team to go fade using pres.
Dont forget to allways think about optimal timings. I have so many pubgames where i have to wait for decent upgrades that i basically cant go fade for minutes. Researching leap or celerity for example while most of the skulks are close to 50 res happens a lot.
I personally go shift hive first in 20+ player servers because people playing on those servers are usually more interested in just playing, and less on being strategic/intelligent/good.
Waiting on respawns because egglocked = not fun.
My point is that there are better ways of avoiding egglocks than buying eggs. Either getting a hive, that spawns eggs for free and brings other advantages, or getting carapace which greatly increases survivability.
If you're playing with a bunch of people who just want to spawn and suicide rush marine base until they lose, I guess it's fine to spend the res on buying eggs. But I wouldn't be interested in commanding or playing such a game (not saying t's "wrong", just not my cup of tea). I play almost exclusively on 20+ servers and there's a lot of teamwork, tactics and good games on the ones I play.
Another way to look at tactics and strategies is to think about what you prefer and don't prefer to be up against. When I am a marine I love skulks that run in a straight line at me, and hate skulks that sneak up on me. Which would indicate that one tactic is stronger than the other.
Same goes for upgrades. When I am a marine, I prefer skulks to have celerity over both carapace and silence. Celerity just means they are a bit faster until they try to parasite or I get my first hit. Carapace means I need 13 rather than 9 to kill them (or 10/14 counting passive regen). That is often the difference between killing them before they get close enough to bite. Silence also makes it much more likely for them to get within biting range before I kill them.
If I'm commanding marines I *love* when Aliens go shift and buy eggs. Then I know that everytime my marines kill a skulk, we're costing them res and delaying their expansion and upgrades. I also know my marines will have an easier time winning engagements, meaning we can expand more aggressively. When they get carapace, I make it a priority to try and kill the shell if possible. If I find out where the carapace shell is, I will direct marines there to kill it. With a spur it's not a high priority, even though they cost the same.
It seems that my perception that the buy-eggs-strategy is one of the most common is correct, since not only does everyone seem to recognise it, but a lot of people seem to prefer it as the standard or "best" strategy. To you I'd like to suggest trying one of the strats I suggested instead. I've played hundreds of games with that strat but I have also played many games with the ones I suggest (as well as many others). If you're only playing one strategy you miss out on a lot of aspects of the game, and it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't.
On the server I play I think there's *one* very good skulk player that prefers celerity first, while all the others are very happy when a commander choses carapace as first upgrade instead.
I appreciate all the talk about differtent tactics, but I started the thread to discuss the specific issue of getting egglocked on large pub servers. Perhaps we can have a thread on general tips/tactics/strategies and keep this one on topic?
I appreciate all the talk about differtent tactics, but I started the thread to discuss the specific issue of getting egglocked on large pub servers. Perhaps we can have a thread on general tips/tactics/strategies and keep this one on topic?
Then you should change your title to reflect that.
I appreciate all the talk about differtent tactics, but I started the thread to discuss the specific issue of getting egglocked on large pub servers. Perhaps we can have a thread on general tips/tactics/strategies and keep this one on topic?
Then you should change your title to reflect that.
*Disclaimer*
There are of course other strategies, and your experience from the games you play may be completely different from mine. I've chosen to discuss these three because they highlight a common problem and different perspectives on how to solve it.
I like all kinds of discussions on strategy or tactics, but find that it lacks depth and becomes wildly unfocused unless you restrict the subject.
I would agree that comms should start going cara first and expecting better play from their teams on 12v12. Shift first is definitely a crutch for weak teams. However if you have a weak or new team, shift first may indeed be the best choice as you can direct your newbs movement a little bit better (force them into nano or central drilling for example).
To me there is a big difference between using forward shifts (pro-active) as an (expensive) way to get your teammates into the right position, and using it as a reactive way to pay for skulks suiciding. Using forward shifts is a valid strategy, but usually not applicable in the early game unless you have a very specific achievement in mind. You have to be able to accomplish something that is worth setting back your upgrades and second hive drop significantly.
You are missing the fact that a good alien comm in large servers uses shift spawn eggs as a BOTH a forward strategic spawn location and as a way to pay for skulks dying. In fact, the more skulks die, the more powerful the forward spawn location becomes. A forward spawn location is a much more powerful strategy in larger player count servers.
I am not missing that fact. Good khammanders will use *forward* shifts to direct and enforce attacks on strategically valuable objectives. That's a valid strategy and not what I am critisising. It's the *reactive* and *defensive* use of shifts to enable the suicide rushing of unupgraded or celerity skulks that I am critisising. If you drop a shift in Courtyard in order to supply an attack on Locker rooms, that's a valid tactic. If you drop it in your hive because you're running out of eggs, I will be very sad (unless I'm a marine).
I would agree that comms should start going cara first and expecting better play from their teams on 12v12. Shift first is definitely a crutch for weak teams. However if you have a weak or new team, shift first may indeed be the best choice as you can direct your newbs movement a little bit better (force them into nano or central drilling for example).
To me there is a big difference between using forward shifts (pro-active) as an (expensive) way to get your teammates into the right position, and using it as a reactive way to pay for skulks suiciding. Using forward shifts is a valid strategy, but usually not applicable in the early game unless you have a very specific achievement in mind. You have to be able to accomplish something that is worth setting back your upgrades and second hive drop significantly.
You are missing the fact that a good alien comm in large servers uses shift spawn eggs as a BOTH a forward strategic spawn location and as a way to pay for skulks dying. In fact, the more skulks die, the more powerful the forward spawn location becomes. A forward spawn location is a much more powerful strategy in larger player count servers.
I am not missing that fact. Good khammanders will use *forward* shifts to direct and enforce attacks on strategically valuable objectives. That's a valid strategy and not what I am critisising. It's the *reactive* and *defensive* use of shifts to enable the suicide rushing of unupgraded or celerity skulks that I am critisising. If you drop a shift in Courtyard in order to supply an attack on Locker rooms, that's a valid tactic. If you drop it in your hive because you're running out of eggs, I will be very sad (unless I'm a marine).
I'll eggie drops to reinforce my defense. like if I notice 2 marines sneaking into cross, I'll drop.a few eggs.
Comments
Unfortunately, wall jumping and celerity don't quite stack - non-celerity skulks hits about 8.5 speed when walljumping, while celerity skulks gets ... 9.5. So the difference is ~10%, rather than the ~30% it should be.
Try it on a listenserver, with cheats 1 and debugspeed console commands.
I get shift first for.strategic.spawning, and if I see a lot of red on my scoreboard. I'll get celerity if I have res left over, because it helps marginally. ifmy scoreboard is white, I'll risk crag.first, or shade if people feel like they need the challenge/trolling the other team.
played one game where there was a new khamm, didn't respond to my initial query of, "can you please respond in some way?" both spoken and written, but not enough people felt like ejecting. anyway, goes shift first, throws up a couple rts, decides that whips are a gift from God. by this point, we're stuck Kb one hive with 3 res, so.what does he decide to do? throws down a spur and gets us adrenaline... a spur, and adrenaline... only. I think I must've spent 10 minutes straight asking for celerity. at this point he finally starts to respond to communications, turns out his volume was inadequate to the task, and I guess he just ignored the words on the screen. finally, 2 minutes before exos push in he informs us that he's getting celthe moral of the story, celerity is at least slightly useful to lower life forms, adren, not so.much.
there's also another point which is that carapace is consistent against good players and bad players.
i think any decent marine would prefer to face celerity skulks over carapace skulks.
There are people who were force-fed too much vegetables when they were kids.
Oh man, I'm on a roll here.
Understanding the speed boost Celerity gives doesn't even need you to read the lua, because it's on the wiki: http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Celerity
As a further FYI:
I personally go shift hive first in 20+ player servers because people playing on those servers are usually more interested in just playing, and less on being strategic/intelligent/good.
Waiting on respawns because egglocked = not fun.
Nothing about your post, but just a heads up about misinformation and the wiki...
The wiki has been wrong multiple times in the past.
also it's the best way to teach players how to play the game. skulking is about ambushing and picking fights you can win
in pubs the aim is quite bad so you can actually escape quite often and it's less about tanking 3 extra bullets and more about either dominating or getting dominated in a fight
This strategy totally relies on one player being able to steamroll with a fade at 7-9min.
Every other strategy relies on some or most of your players to do well, while carapace is still a viable upgrade for my team early game.
So in general i am counting on one fade (or two fades) early-mid game while giving the rest of the team a decent upgrade for the early game. Last time i did that, i checked the pres and even the best skulk still needed 8pres to go fade. To get 8 pres with 4 Harvesters takes over 1min 30sec. A fade that early can be a gamechanger and it is the only way to win if u allready are behind.
All other strategies have way more variables to take into account. I basically trie to reduce it to one variable that i have to take care of.
What if the fade gets unlucky and dies?
that's what happens when you play from a one deck shoe.
A decent fadeplayer with blink and cara has to get very very unlucky to die inbetween 2min. And even if he does get unlucky, skulks still have carapace and it only takes 1-2min for most of the team to go fade using pres.
Dont forget to allways think about optimal timings. I have so many pubgames where i have to wait for decent upgrades that i basically cant go fade for minutes. Researching leap or celerity for example while most of the skulks are close to 50 res happens a lot.
My point is that there are better ways of avoiding egglocks than buying eggs. Either getting a hive, that spawns eggs for free and brings other advantages, or getting carapace which greatly increases survivability.
If you're playing with a bunch of people who just want to spawn and suicide rush marine base until they lose, I guess it's fine to spend the res on buying eggs. But I wouldn't be interested in commanding or playing such a game (not saying t's "wrong", just not my cup of tea). I play almost exclusively on 20+ servers and there's a lot of teamwork, tactics and good games on the ones I play.
Another way to look at tactics and strategies is to think about what you prefer and don't prefer to be up against. When I am a marine I love skulks that run in a straight line at me, and hate skulks that sneak up on me. Which would indicate that one tactic is stronger than the other.
Same goes for upgrades. When I am a marine, I prefer skulks to have celerity over both carapace and silence. Celerity just means they are a bit faster until they try to parasite or I get my first hit. Carapace means I need 13 rather than 9 to kill them (or 10/14 counting passive regen). That is often the difference between killing them before they get close enough to bite. Silence also makes it much more likely for them to get within biting range before I kill them.
If I'm commanding marines I *love* when Aliens go shift and buy eggs. Then I know that everytime my marines kill a skulk, we're costing them res and delaying their expansion and upgrades. I also know my marines will have an easier time winning engagements, meaning we can expand more aggressively. When they get carapace, I make it a priority to try and kill the shell if possible. If I find out where the carapace shell is, I will direct marines there to kill it. With a spur it's not a high priority, even though they cost the same.
It seems that my perception that the buy-eggs-strategy is one of the most common is correct, since not only does everyone seem to recognise it, but a lot of people seem to prefer it as the standard or "best" strategy. To you I'd like to suggest trying one of the strats I suggested instead. I've played hundreds of games with that strat but I have also played many games with the ones I suggest (as well as many others). If you're only playing one strategy you miss out on a lot of aspects of the game, and it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't.
On the server I play I think there's *one* very good skulk player that prefers celerity first, while all the others are very happy when a commander choses carapace as first upgrade instead.
Then you should change your title to reflect that.
I like all kinds of discussions on strategy or tactics, but find that it lacks depth and becomes wildly unfocused unless you restrict the subject.
I am not missing that fact. Good khammanders will use *forward* shifts to direct and enforce attacks on strategically valuable objectives. That's a valid strategy and not what I am critisising. It's the *reactive* and *defensive* use of shifts to enable the suicide rushing of unupgraded or celerity skulks that I am critisising. If you drop a shift in Courtyard in order to supply an attack on Locker rooms, that's a valid tactic. If you drop it in your hive because you're running out of eggs, I will be very sad (unless I'm a marine).
I'll eggie drops to reinforce my defense. like if I notice 2 marines sneaking into cross, I'll drop.a few eggs.