I feel that glancing bites encourage the 'hold-M1-and-jump-around' mentality rather than toning ones movement skills. I would love to have a smaller single bite cone for pure 75 damage bites. Maybe I am just biased though. :O
While maybe random is not 100% the correct word to describe the bite system we currently have...
There are edge cases (and those are not rare), in which you would think its a full bite but end up glancing, not exclusively but especially for the forward bite cones - you aim dead centre, click bite a millisecond to early and instead of the expected full damage bite its suddenly a 25/50dmg one - that stuff gets you killed.
So while it is reasonably fine to figure out the cones left and right from the crosshair, 3d depth is an unforgiving b*itch with a 2d screen.
I played it for an hour or two this morning and I cannot express in words how amazing it is to have no glancing hits. The game just feels more crisp/responsive with a flat damage number. I bit that marine, I did 75 damage. I missed that marine, I should do better next time. - Not I bit that marine, why did my glancing box register a 50 instead of a 75 aasfdafasfadfa now I'm dead.
Notice it says "experimental" ?
Here's hoping it gets fixed instead.
The whole BT mod is experimental.
I'll requote myself
I don't know a single high level player that wants it there & its even more confusing for new players when you have to explain a 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy. It was easy in NS1 to explain that in NS1 it was 3 bites for armour 1, 4 for armour 2 and 5 for armour 3. Try explaining how many bites it is now to a new player... **** stupid
Glancing bite is confusing to new players and 99% of comp/vet players i've spoken to hate it. Why bother fixing something so universally hated, Oh and see Rantology above
I personally think the bite range is far too large still, but i'm happy to compromise on that aspect.
Notice it says "experimental" ?
Here's hoping it gets fixed instead.
The whole BT mod is experimental.
I'll requote myself
I don't know a single high level player that wants it there & its even more confusing for new players when you have to explain a 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy. It was easy in NS1 to explain that in NS1 it was 3 bites for armour 1, 4 for armour 2 and 5 for armour 3. Try explaining how many bites it is now to a new player... **** stupid
Glancing bite is confusing to new players and 99% of comp/vet players i've spoken to hate it. Why bother fixing something so universally hated, Oh and see Rantology above
I personally think the bite range is far too large still, but i'm happy to compromise on that aspect.
Glancing bites were never about "High Level Players", it was a response to the nerf to the bite zone which meant skulks had to have impecable aim to land a bite once in melee range and against an opponent who has greater agility and can more easily change direction.
Glancing bites was a compromise which allowed a lower entry level for skulks after teh bite cone was reduced.
As someone who is a more casual player the addition of glancing bites resulted in me getting maybe 1 or 2 extra kills ever few maps.
The issue was that the bite cone (which is was at the time) was nerfed to being stupidly narrow and meant you could be looking slightly to the left/right of a marine and miss.
Considering there is no x-hair this makes almost no sense to new players who wont have gone an installed a mod to put some there.
I see the same people saying it should be removed that said the changes didn't make a difference to them (mostly experienced or marine dominant players).
The reality is if we want to attract new people you need to have the entry floor low enough to allow them to get kills.
The whole game is confusing the new players...glancing bites simply allowed UWE to keep in the narrower core bite cone.....and have the old bite cone covered by the glancing zones.
New players are not counting how many times they bite someone...and if they are they are going to be capable of understanding the whole glancing bite concept.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Glancing bites is harder for newer players IMO; it helps for the first 5 minutes then mid-late game they are wondering why marines take 7-8 bites to die. Again... try explaining the 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy + bad hit rego + interp issues to a new/casual player.
So with the introduction of glancing bite, they have screwed over the vets & the noobs at the same time.
Also fuck this hand holding of casual players, they are not retards. THey will learn how to play just like everyone else; if you treat them like a baby they will never have the opportunity to learn for themselves.
People were not born as professionals at Natural Selection.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@male_fatalities : You keep stating how glancing bites are harder for new players, but i really wonder where this info comes from..
Have you watched over the shoulders of hundreds of new players in order to make that claim?
I have.
And what i saw was the same, from "pre glancing bites" days compared to "post glancing bites"
Players were just holding M1 chomping away wildly, completely unaware. Glancing bites just gave what would have been a miss, a slight amount of damage.
I agree communication is definitely the issue entirely however - it seems a disservice to me that it would be a hidden mechanic instead of something that taught a player.
Without proper instant feedback it screws over the high level player counting bites, and the new player who doesn't realize why the marine won't die.
And if it can't be given the same treatment as typical bite in regards to weapon feedback, then sure axe it.. but would've still been cool to see an attempt first.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Glancing bites is harder for newer players IMO; it helps for the first 5 minutes then mid-late game they are wondering why marines take 7-8 bites to die. Again... try explaining the 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy + bad hit rego + interp issues to a new/casual player.
So with the introduction of glancing bite, they have screwed over the vets & the noobs at the same time.
Also fuck this hand holding of casual players, they are not retards. THey will learn how to play just like everyone else; if you treat them like a baby they will never have the opportunity to learn for themselves.
People were not born as professionals at Natural Selection.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. I argue that glancing bites is EASIER for new players because they get more kills as a result of it because their aim won't be as good to always hit the 75 bite cone without glancing bites. This gives them more satisfaction from playing because they are actually getting kills.
Also, the 3-tiered system is easy to explain, you don't need to tell them about hit registration or interp or lag compensation. By the way, hit registration or interp or lag compensation is there even without glacing bites.
Why is the slight amount of damage 25. Why is it not 10 or 5 damage. Who decided 25, 50 and 75 as cones were appropriate in the first place and where is the analysis available on the impact it would have on the game balance and general enjoyment?
I don't really find creating frustration across the board for mid and high level players a good excuse for the tokenism you are defending.
Where are all these new players that need coddling. We had 8 or so thousand pass through between December and March and we're still back to 1500 concurrent. Still got a game full of vision obstruction, immersion and generally annoying mechanics such as this with stuff all new player retention rates and decreasing numbers of mid to high level players. Good job on that m8.
It is cringe worthy watching people cloak themselves in the interests of new players and act as their champion.
Where are all these new players that need coddling. We had 8 or so thousand pass through between December and March and we're still back to 1500 concurrent. Still got a game full of vision obstruction, immersion and generally annoying mechanics such as this with stuff all new player retention rates and decreasing numbers of mid to high level players. Good job on that m8.
It is cringe worthy watching people cloak themselves in the interests of new players and act as their champion.
Sure, lets just keep NS2 as an elitist game meant for competitive players only and remove all these mechanics comp players find annoying but that casual and new players may like.... /rolls eyes.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2013
/rolls eyes
Clearly reading is another one of your areas of difficulty.
/the eyes doth roll
No where did I state I wanted the game to be as your suggest I do.
/rolls eyes
I said despite all the appeal-to-new-player mechanics we have that the wretched comp players hate (ie doing it your way) we're still retaining low player counts and very few of them new.
/rolls eyes
So your way has been unsuccessful In its mission yet you religiously cling to them hoping this time the cupcake doesn't electrocute you.
/rolls eyes
I've derailed my own thread lol
PS by cupcake I refer to the nth iteration of Res game design ideological failure.
No where did I state I wanted the game to be as your suggest I do.
You didn't explicitly state it, yet, everything you mentioned is what mainly comp players gripe about.....
Changing mechanics to appeal more to the mid/high levels like you suggested is not a good direction to bring new players. And if you think it is.. then there really is no hope for you.
So your way has been unsuccessful In its mission yet you religiously cling to them hoping this time the cupcake doesn't electrocute you.
Despite your inability to voice your arguments calm and objective, you are wrong. You have no evidence if or how glancing bites influenced the player numbers. Claiming that glancing bites failed to keep new players in the game is not a valid argument. The game is very complex as it is. Your attitude of: "We can't make the game 100% newb-friendly so just scrap all the things that make it 10% newb-friendly." won't bring the game anywhere.
If you could actually write up more arguments that back you up instead of throwing boring pseudo-insults around, we could have a better discussion about the pros and cons of glancing bites. I even understand the people that say it feels more crisp. I also think I would like it myself. But the simple logic of: "Newbs get in more damage, results in more kills, results in more fun." is more convincing right now.
I also remember the complains in beta before glancing bites as the cone got narrowed. It was highly unintuitive for many people that you simply would miss a marine that is directly in front of you, just a bit at the side. The teeth that cover the whole screen are suggesting that you hit, when you see the marine and are close enough. Without glancing bites, there should be a visual clue of how big the hit-zone really is.
For those claiming that glancing bites are a necessity for new players, I would argue otherwise. The bite on the balance mod atm is quite forgiving (the 75 cone is larger than the 75 cone on live), and FEELS better all around. It's consistent and it's something very basic that can be taught to new players. You bite, you do damage. Right now I've seen new players thinking everything from random damage to headshots exist because of the lack of feedback and the sometimes just wonky registry you get with glancing hits. And even if the feedback issue is fixed, it's still going to be just an annoying mechanic to everyone else (i.e. everyone who's played the game for more than a day).
If anything, the most catastrophically detrimental aspect of NS2 to new players is the complete lack of in-game tutorial. Glancing bite removal would frankly have little to no impact on the noob friendly-ness of ns2.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Glancing bites is harder for newer players IMO; it helps for the first 5 minutes then mid-late game they are wondering why marines take 7-8 bites to die. Again... try explaining the 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy + bad hit rego + interp issues to a new/casual player.
So with the introduction of glancing bite, they have screwed over the vets & the noobs at the same time.
Also fuck this hand holding of casual players, they are not retards. THey will learn how to play just like everyone else; if you treat them like a baby they will never have the opportunity to learn for themselves.
People were not born as professionals at Natural Selection.
@ Male_fatalities
Glad I could so clearly articulate my different opinion
Glancing bites are easier to explain than a 30 res lerk with carapace being 1 shotted by a w3 SG...or a 50 res fade with cara 2 shotted.
I am sure you saw my death message come up enough to know I am no comp player...and can tell you I went from a break even skulk to a 1:2 k/d ratio when they first simply narrowed the bite cone and once glancing came back into it I went up to about 2:3 k/d ratio.
Most new players are to worried about whats happening on the screen to know exactly how many bites they have landed as you spend most of the time trying to keep track of the marine your attacking.
Really your complaint about the high number of hits required is more a call for the old focus upgrade than a claim for why glancing bites are bad.
Casual and new gamers are the foundations for a competitive scene...dont look after your foundations and your building will fall down....or in the case of ns1 the game will slowly die.
The player base needs to continually have new players trying the game out and wanting to become regular players (as interest wanes or life (kids, marriage, health etc) get in the way).
If your approach is so accurate why does almost every single player game have different skill levels?
I guess it would not have to do with anything like helping to ease people into a game.
Whilst you, me and most more experienced gamers in general will go for hardest or second hardest setting for any new game we pick up...thats not the case for everyone.
The video game market would be not be outperforming hollywood if they had taken such a narrow minded approach.
If you care not for your casual gamer base...then your competitive scene is nothing but drunken stories between old fools at the bar....are will never be any sort of real e-sport/comp scene. They have big casual gamer basis that feed in.
Why is the slight amount of damage 25. Why is it not 10 or 5 damage. Who decided 25, 50 and 75 as cones were appropriate in the first place and where is the analysis available on the impact it would have on the game balance and general enjoyment?
Flayra and sewlek.
And what's this new requirement of "analysis of impact"?? Can you point me to any mechanic where this has been done? Can you numerically measure a prediction of " general enjoyment"? That sounds like something that would have been done if it could
Comments
There are edge cases (and those are not rare), in which you would think its a full bite but end up glancing, not exclusively but especially for the forward bite cones - you aim dead centre, click bite a millisecond to early and instead of the expected full damage bite its suddenly a 25/50dmg one - that stuff gets you killed.
So while it is reasonably fine to figure out the cones left and right from the crosshair, 3d depth is an unforgiving b*itch with a 2d screen.
** praise Sewlek **
Here's hoping it gets fixed instead.
The whole BT mod is experimental.
I'll requote myself
Glancing bite is confusing to new players and 99% of comp/vet players i've spoken to hate it. Why bother fixing something so universally hated, Oh and see Rantology above
I personally think the bite range is far too large still, but i'm happy to compromise on that aspect.
I'm sure you'll see to that.
Glancing bites were never about "High Level Players", it was a response to the nerf to the bite zone which meant skulks had to have impecable aim to land a bite once in melee range and against an opponent who has greater agility and can more easily change direction.
Glancing bites was a compromise which allowed a lower entry level for skulks after teh bite cone was reduced.
As someone who is a more casual player the addition of glancing bites resulted in me getting maybe 1 or 2 extra kills ever few maps.
The issue was that the bite cone (which is was at the time) was nerfed to being stupidly narrow and meant you could be looking slightly to the left/right of a marine and miss.
Considering there is no x-hair this makes almost no sense to new players who wont have gone an installed a mod to put some there.
I see the same people saying it should be removed that said the changes didn't make a difference to them (mostly experienced or marine dominant players).
The reality is if we want to attract new people you need to have the entry floor low enough to allow them to get kills.
The whole game is confusing the new players...glancing bites simply allowed UWE to keep in the narrower core bite cone.....and have the old bite cone covered by the glancing zones.
New players are not counting how many times they bite someone...and if they are they are going to be capable of understanding the whole glancing bite concept.
Agreed. It felt great, on both sides.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. Glancing bites is harder for newer players IMO; it helps for the first 5 minutes then mid-late game they are wondering why marines take 7-8 bites to die. Again... try explaining the 3 tiered damage system based on bite accuracy + bad hit rego + interp issues to a new/casual player.
So with the introduction of glancing bite, they have screwed over the vets & the noobs at the same time.
Also fuck this hand holding of casual players, they are not retards. THey will learn how to play just like everyone else; if you treat them like a baby they will never have the opportunity to learn for themselves.
People were not born as professionals at Natural Selection.
Have you watched over the shoulders of hundreds of new players in order to make that claim?
I have.
And what i saw was the same, from "pre glancing bites" days compared to "post glancing bites"
Players were just holding M1 chomping away wildly, completely unaware. Glancing bites just gave what would have been a miss, a slight amount of damage.
I agree communication is definitely the issue entirely however - it seems a disservice to me that it would be a hidden mechanic instead of something that taught a player.
Without proper instant feedback it screws over the high level player counting bites, and the new player who doesn't realize why the marine won't die.
And if it can't be given the same treatment as typical bite in regards to weapon feedback, then sure axe it.. but would've still been cool to see an attempt first.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. I argue that glancing bites is EASIER for new players because they get more kills as a result of it because their aim won't be as good to always hit the 75 bite cone without glancing bites. This gives them more satisfaction from playing because they are actually getting kills.
Also, the 3-tiered system is easy to explain, you don't need to tell them about hit registration or interp or lag compensation. By the way, hit registration or interp or lag compensation is there even without glacing bites.
Why is the slight amount of damage 25. Why is it not 10 or 5 damage. Who decided 25, 50 and 75 as cones were appropriate in the first place and where is the analysis available on the impact it would have on the game balance and general enjoyment?
I don't really find creating frustration across the board for mid and high level players a good excuse for the tokenism you are defending.
@Res
Where are all these new players that need coddling. We had 8 or so thousand pass through between December and March and we're still back to 1500 concurrent. Still got a game full of vision obstruction, immersion and generally annoying mechanics such as this with stuff all new player retention rates and decreasing numbers of mid to high level players. Good job on that m8.
It is cringe worthy watching people cloak themselves in the interests of new players and act as their champion.
Sure, lets just keep NS2 as an elitist game meant for competitive players only and remove all these mechanics comp players find annoying but that casual and new players may like.... /rolls eyes.
Clearly reading is another one of your areas of difficulty.
/the eyes doth roll
No where did I state I wanted the game to be as your suggest I do.
/rolls eyes
I said despite all the appeal-to-new-player mechanics we have that the wretched comp players hate (ie doing it your way) we're still retaining low player counts and very few of them new.
/rolls eyes
So your way has been unsuccessful In its mission yet you religiously cling to them hoping this time the cupcake doesn't electrocute you.
/rolls eyes
I've derailed my own thread lol
PS by cupcake I refer to the nth iteration of Res game design ideological failure.
You didn't explicitly state it, yet, everything you mentioned is what mainly comp players gripe about.....
Changing mechanics to appeal more to the mid/high levels like you suggested is not a good direction to bring new players. And if you think it is.. then there really is no hope for you.
Despite your inability to voice your arguments calm and objective, you are wrong. You have no evidence if or how glancing bites influenced the player numbers. Claiming that glancing bites failed to keep new players in the game is not a valid argument. The game is very complex as it is. Your attitude of: "We can't make the game 100% newb-friendly so just scrap all the things that make it 10% newb-friendly." won't bring the game anywhere.
If you could actually write up more arguments that back you up instead of throwing boring pseudo-insults around, we could have a better discussion about the pros and cons of glancing bites. I even understand the people that say it feels more crisp. I also think I would like it myself. But the simple logic of: "Newbs get in more damage, results in more kills, results in more fun." is more convincing right now.
I also remember the complains in beta before glancing bites as the cone got narrowed. It was highly unintuitive for many people that you simply would miss a marine that is directly in front of you, just a bit at the side. The teeth that cover the whole screen are suggesting that you hit, when you see the marine and are close enough. Without glancing bites, there should be a visual clue of how big the hit-zone really is.
Hail sewlek!
If anything, the most catastrophically detrimental aspect of NS2 to new players is the complete lack of in-game tutorial. Glancing bite removal would frankly have little to no impact on the noob friendly-ness of ns2.
Glad I could so clearly articulate my different opinion
Glancing bites are easier to explain than a 30 res lerk with carapace being 1 shotted by a w3 SG...or a 50 res fade with cara 2 shotted.
I am sure you saw my death message come up enough to know I am no comp player...and can tell you I went from a break even skulk to a 1:2 k/d ratio when they first simply narrowed the bite cone and once glancing came back into it I went up to about 2:3 k/d ratio.
Most new players are to worried about whats happening on the screen to know exactly how many bites they have landed as you spend most of the time trying to keep track of the marine your attacking.
Really your complaint about the high number of hits required is more a call for the old focus upgrade than a claim for why glancing bites are bad.
Casual and new gamers are the foundations for a competitive scene...dont look after your foundations and your building will fall down....or in the case of ns1 the game will slowly die.
The player base needs to continually have new players trying the game out and wanting to become regular players (as interest wanes or life (kids, marriage, health etc) get in the way).
If your approach is so accurate why does almost every single player game have different skill levels?
I guess it would not have to do with anything like helping to ease people into a game.
Whilst you, me and most more experienced gamers in general will go for hardest or second hardest setting for any new game we pick up...thats not the case for everyone.
The video game market would be not be outperforming hollywood if they had taken such a narrow minded approach.
If you care not for your casual gamer base...then your competitive scene is nothing but drunken stories between old fools at the bar....are will never be any sort of real e-sport/comp scene. They have big casual gamer basis that feed in.
And what's this new requirement of "analysis of impact"?? Can you point me to any mechanic where this has been done? Can you numerically measure a prediction of " general enjoyment"? That sounds like something that would have been done if it could