I am also a member of the crag crowd, because carapace is so awesome early and it really helps limiting marine progression on the map, especially those early phase gate pushes.
Second useful thing is healing station that helps a lot when dropping a second hive, as well as in creating outposts at key areas.
That said, most pub commanders go shift, then skulks start dying, and they will tell you - "you see? without those extra eggs, we would have been locked"
But with carapace, skulks don't die so much in the first place.
Second good option is shade + silence, but you must have players that know what they are doing.
Carapace is the better choice because it works equally for all players, regardless of skill level. On the other hand, a good skulk (that knows how to wall jump) can be pretty damn hard to hit if they use the map to their advantage.
It all comes down to if you want to tank or rush the other team, if I get the crag hive first the second one is for the shifts and adrenaline, which is help full for allot of the more evolved aliens.
The time you spend hiding because you didn't have carapace is used by the marine to hug the Armory. I may be hard on Regeneration, it is useful when used right. Just saying, when comparing the ups and cons, Carapace is just downright better. But yeah, I'll admit I've had fun with Regen the few times khammander didn't research for Carapace.
I still don't buy your arguments. I just assume you still talk about public.
Regeneration is not only useful when used right, it gives more potential than Carapace. In the "hugging the Armory" case, if you got a marine down to such low health that he needs the Armory, you just finish him off. If you take so much damage that you can't survive any engagement without Carapace you should work on your Lerk more. As I have written
So my alternative for Carapace, if the Lerk is good, go Regeneration in early game.
(I don't want to criticize your skill with Lerk, don't get offended please I don't even know how you play.)
The armory case is just one out of many and depends under what situation the marine is hugging the armory, where the armory is located at, how many marines & aliens in the engagement... those 50eHP only saves your precious Lerk because there was something you did wrong. (Overcommitment, wrong judgement of situation, wrong map awareness,...)
Carapace allows the Lerk just to endure this one engagement longer than Regeneration would allow, whereas Regeneration allows you to stay on the front line, spend all your time harassing, thus entering more engagements, preventing pushes and also gives advanced combat potential (short retreat/avoid line of sight - regenerate a little - engage) the wiki says it needs 5 seconds for Regeneration to get active, but Regeneration has changed several times or the battle cooldown was 5 seconds earlier - but now it only takes 2 seconds to activate I think because I can't remember waiting so long till Regeneration or Celerity kicks in. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It is NO question that Carapace is getting better later with forward healing stations, defending a hive, sporing hallways & important marine structures & get out to heal, but cases like this usually don't happen when the first aliens hit 30PRes.
I still don't buy your arguments. I just assume you still talk about public.
Regeneration is not only useful when used right, it is better than Carapace. In the "hugging the Armory" case, if you got a marine down to such low health that he needs the Armory, you just finish him off. If you take so much damage that you can't survive any engagement without Carapace you should work on your Lerk more. As I have written
Bull feces. If you can't survive any engagement without needing to regenerate, you should work on your Lerk more. That's not an argument that you wrote, that's just random flame. Even more, that makes no sens; if both the marine and I are low hp, I WILL need those extra hp from carapace to end him.
Saying "if you play perfectly you don't need Carapace" makes no sens either; you don't need Regen if you're so damn good at Lerk either. I don't mind discussing point of views, but you're just trying to throw "L2P''s around to justify yours.
....., whereas Regeneration allows you to stay on the front line, spend all your time harassing, thus entering more engagements, preventing pushes and also gives advanced combat potential (short retreat/avoid line of sight - regenerate a little - engage)
I don't buy this as a valid argument. The difference between waiting for your health to regen compared to just taking a few seconds to fly back to a hive to regen is minimal.
Regen is almost never as good as cara. You can make an argument for the lerk, but is it really worth researching regen just for lerks, especially when cara works just fine on them as well?
This is the way i see the upgrades
1. Cara
2. Adren
3. Silence
4. Celerity
5. Regen
6. Cloaking
Incidentally, isn't the extra armour worth more than 50ehp vs shotguns (light damage?). Genuine question, i can't remember!
Also by saying you're taking Regen for early lerk, you are implying that you would take Cara later in the game. Assuming therefore you're expecting to die and have to re-evolve? Might not have died with carapace!
If you take shift because you don't want to get egg-locked you will lose as alien. The egg-spawn has SO friggin much impact on early resourcemanagement that you will never catch up and rines will crush you.
If you are afraid of egglocks because rines spawn close to alien drop a 2nd hive on game start and gorge it up with 2 gorges. That is the only recourse efficient way of making sure you don't get egg-locked early. If done well (e.g. 2 gorges heal up the hive) you can have the 2nd hive up in no time.
So in my opinion:
Crag->infestation to rt->cara shell->rt1->clogupcarashell+hydra->rt2->carapace.
Followed by: 2xrt if possible->2nd hive->shift hive->adrenaline-> tech upgrades (blink when fades, else leap, bilbebomb).
Of course after 4th rt you can always check for more rts but ONLY do so if you are sure it will live for atleast 10 ticks or more. If you drop and rt and a nearby room has marines and rt is not protected by gorge cloggs + hydra's you might aswell throw 10 res into the sewer.
Or for a change (you need to know you have a couple of decent players):
-Shade+ silence --> crag + cara.
And for when it's marine close to alien spawn and you are afraid of eglock:
immediately 2nd hive + rt. You heal rt, 2nd gorge starts on hive. you join hive heal when done with rt heal. When 2nd hive done rt->crag + cara->upgrades.
So again. Early shift egg spawn is massive resource destroying and you will most likely lose. If you manage not to die you will notice "you are running behind" the whole time and eventually get crushed.
Only weapon 3 shotgun kills a non-cara lerk in 1 shot. In anny other case (carapace or not) a full shot to the face takes 2 shots to kill a lerk. With or without cara.
So, if you ask me, in any case a regen lerk is better then a cara lerk besides lategame (read weap 3 available).
So cara unless you know the com, know he's gonna go regen and you play lerk well.
One thing that hasn't been brought up here is the issue of where the hive is located on the map, to determine the tech path you choose. It's not SO important, but it can factor in.
For instance, my competitive play strategy is generally Crag (Carapace) > Shade (Silence) as we have really strong Lerks/Fades who can be effective without Adrenaline.
In public play though, I will generally favour Crag (Carapace) > Shift (Adrenaline). I very rarely use Celerity due to it's in-combat pointlessness. Once the second Hive is up, Leap/Blink/Spores/Bile Bomb are coming very shortly after - and a Skulk who can Leap 5 times on one energy bar is MUCH more effective at harassing/dodging/escaping/avoiding being tracked than one on a slightly faster movement speed.
However, getting back to my main point on Hive position: if we're playing close spawns on Summit and the game seems balanced, for instance, and it's looking like my second Hive is going to need to go up in Crossroads due to Marine presence in other places, I will choose Shade. I can then use the map control to slowly secure the area behind it, and drop my third, Shift Hive furthest away from the enemy.
If the game is going to be a long one, then Marines will eventually get Exos/ARCs up and chances are I WILL lose a Hive at some point, and in a situation like described above, that one's almost certainly going to be the one in Crossroads. I'd much rather lose the ability to drop Shades (and possibly lose my Veils too) than be without Shifts/Adrenaline in late game whilst we re-secure the area.
N.B. I will VERY rarely drop Regen or Camo at any point in the game, unless I have a seriously good harassing Lerk who wants it. Giving an inexperienced player the opportunity to choose Camo over Silence is just asking for them to die all the time. And the 25TRes for Regen/15TRes for Camo would be MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Of course after 4th rt you can always check for more rts but ONLY do so if you are sure it will live for atleast 10 ticks or more. If you drop and rt and a nearby room has marines and rt is not protected by gorge cloggs + hydra's you might aswell throw 10 res into the sewer.
Sorry for the double post, but I just read this over again.
This is not true.
Whilst a Harvester going down before 10 ticks does hurt the Commander's TRes economy, as long as the Harvester gets fully built, then the players on the ground benefit from an increased PRes rate all the while it's up. This can be favourable in strategies where you are desperate to get Lerks/Fades/Onos up as quickly as possible.
Well you would be really really desperate if you are willingly sacrificing t-res for p-res. In any case we are taking the assumption the harvester will generate tres 10 or less. Hence being alive for at least 60 seconds.
10 tres, 60 seconds, or "atleast payout for spend res", would mean 0.125 * 10 = 1.25 pres.
I'd would rather save up 10 tres and be able to drop a fade/lerk egg sooner (or upgrade/anything) then give each teammember an additional 1.25 pres, and that is IF you manage to get those 10 ticks out of the harvester anyway.
In any case I would only drop that RT if I have researched pretty much everything and have an abunded of tres. Else that pitty amount of pres gain isn't really worth it.
Don't be ridiculous. There's only ONE optimal research order. I have overheard this secret knowledge many, many times while playing in pub games.
The choices are only there to mislead the fools.
....., whereas Regeneration allows you to stay on the front line, spend all your time harassing, thus entering more engagements, preventing pushes and also gives advanced combat potential (short retreat/avoid line of sight - regenerate a little - engage)
I don't buy this as a valid argument. The difference between waiting for your health to regen compared to just taking a few seconds to fly back to a hive to regen is minimal.
Attack RT, marine comes in, bite him, fly away -> regen HP while flying to another RT.
Repeat endlessly.
The harass potential of regen lerk is *amazing* I think. Depends on the map, but regen lerk can work anywhere. Try to harass an RT in Docking - Cafeteria with a Cara Lerk if your hive is in Generator. That's alot of flying to get you topped.
As Khamm, if I knew I had 3 good lerks I would defo go regen just for them. But it's just really not good for skulks...
P.S. If the marine team can't really track a lerk, (which is pretty hard) regen lerks are so much murder.
....., whereas Regeneration allows you to stay on the front line, spend all your time harassing, thus entering more engagements, preventing pushes and also gives advanced combat potential (short retreat/avoid line of sight - regenerate a little - engage)
I don't buy this as a valid argument. The difference between waiting for your health to regen compared to just taking a few seconds to fly back to a hive to regen is minimal.
Attack RT, marine comes in, bite him, fly away -> regen HP while flying to another RT.
Repeat endlessly.
The harass potential of regen lerk is *amazing* I think. Depends on the map, but regen lerk can work anywhere. Try to harass an RT in Docking - Cafeteria with a Cara Lerk if your hive is in Generator. That's alot of flying to get you topped.
As Khamm, if I knew I had 3 good lerks I would defo go regen just for them. But it's just really not good for skulks...
P.S. If the marine team can't really track a lerk, (which is pretty hard) regen lerks are so much murder.
Harassing extractors as a lerk is the first thing you did wrong.
Not if there's no marines outside the range of those extractors.
I just tried to come up with a plausible example, really. What I actually do with regen is proceed to roam around the map killing marines left and right. But that's not something I can tell someone to do, because it requires the marines being worse players.
So yeah, everyone is superleetpro scenario. Agreed. Regen is useless. ;p
Comments
Second useful thing is healing station that helps a lot when dropping a second hive, as well as in creating outposts at key areas.
That said, most pub commanders go shift, then skulks start dying, and they will tell you - "you see? without those extra eggs, we would have been locked"
But with carapace, skulks don't die so much in the first place.
Second good option is shade + silence, but you must have players that know what they are doing.
Ordered by usefulness as a fist hive:
1. Crag
2. Shade
3. Shift
I still don't buy your arguments. I just assume you still talk about public.
Regeneration is not only useful when used right, it gives more potential than Carapace. In the "hugging the Armory" case, if you got a marine down to such low health that he needs the Armory, you just finish him off. If you take so much damage that you can't survive any engagement without Carapace you should work on your Lerk more. As I have written (I don't want to criticize your skill with Lerk, don't get offended please I don't even know how you play.)
The armory case is just one out of many and depends under what situation the marine is hugging the armory, where the armory is located at, how many marines & aliens in the engagement... those 50eHP only saves your precious Lerk because there was something you did wrong. (Overcommitment, wrong judgement of situation, wrong map awareness,...)
Carapace allows the Lerk just to endure this one engagement longer than Regeneration would allow, whereas Regeneration allows you to stay on the front line, spend all your time harassing, thus entering more engagements, preventing pushes and also gives advanced combat potential (short retreat/avoid line of sight - regenerate a little - engage) the wiki says it needs 5 seconds for Regeneration to get active, but Regeneration has changed several times or the battle cooldown was 5 seconds earlier - but now it only takes 2 seconds to activate I think because I can't remember waiting so long till Regeneration or Celerity kicks in. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
It is NO question that Carapace is getting better later with forward healing stations, defending a hive, sporing hallways & important marine structures & get out to heal, but cases like this usually don't happen when the first aliens hit 30PRes.
Sorry at OP for getting "a little" off topic...
Bull feces. If you can't survive any engagement without needing to regenerate, you should work on your Lerk more. That's not an argument that you wrote, that's just random flame. Even more, that makes no sens; if both the marine and I are low hp, I WILL need those extra hp from carapace to end him.
Saying "if you play perfectly you don't need Carapace" makes no sens either; you don't need Regen if you're so damn good at Lerk either. I don't mind discussing point of views, but you're just trying to throw "L2P''s around to justify yours.
I don't buy this as a valid argument. The difference between waiting for your health to regen compared to just taking a few seconds to fly back to a hive to regen is minimal.
This is the way i see the upgrades
1. Cara
2. Adren
3. Silence
4. Celerity
5. Regen
6. Cloaking
Also by saying you're taking Regen for early lerk, you are implying that you would take Cara later in the game. Assuming therefore you're expecting to die and have to re-evolve? Might not have died with carapace!
If you are afraid of egglocks because rines spawn close to alien drop a 2nd hive on game start and gorge it up with 2 gorges. That is the only recourse efficient way of making sure you don't get egg-locked early. If done well (e.g. 2 gorges heal up the hive) you can have the 2nd hive up in no time.
So in my opinion:
Crag->infestation to rt->cara shell->rt1->clogupcarashell+hydra->rt2->carapace.
Followed by: 2xrt if possible->2nd hive->shift hive->adrenaline-> tech upgrades (blink when fades, else leap, bilbebomb).
Of course after 4th rt you can always check for more rts but ONLY do so if you are sure it will live for atleast 10 ticks or more. If you drop and rt and a nearby room has marines and rt is not protected by gorge cloggs + hydra's you might aswell throw 10 res into the sewer.
Or for a change (you need to know you have a couple of decent players):
-Shade+ silence --> crag + cara.
And for when it's marine close to alien spawn and you are afraid of eglock:
immediately 2nd hive + rt. You heal rt, 2nd gorge starts on hive. you join hive heal when done with rt heal. When 2nd hive done rt->crag + cara->upgrades.
So again. Early shift egg spawn is massive resource destroying and you will most likely lose. If you manage not to die you will notice "you are running behind" the whole time and eventually get crushed.
Shotguns deals normal damage, so no, carapace doesn't have an increased efficiency against them. A 45% health increase is still nothing to scoff at.
Only weapon 3 shotgun kills a non-cara lerk in 1 shot. In anny other case (carapace or not) a full shot to the face takes 2 shots to kill a lerk. With or without cara.
So, if you ask me, in any case a regen lerk is better then a cara lerk besides lategame (read weap 3 available).
So cara unless you know the com, know he's gonna go regen and you play lerk well.
For instance, my competitive play strategy is generally Crag (Carapace) > Shade (Silence) as we have really strong Lerks/Fades who can be effective without Adrenaline.
In public play though, I will generally favour Crag (Carapace) > Shift (Adrenaline). I very rarely use Celerity due to it's in-combat pointlessness. Once the second Hive is up, Leap/Blink/Spores/Bile Bomb are coming very shortly after - and a Skulk who can Leap 5 times on one energy bar is MUCH more effective at harassing/dodging/escaping/avoiding being tracked than one on a slightly faster movement speed.
However, getting back to my main point on Hive position: if we're playing close spawns on Summit and the game seems balanced, for instance, and it's looking like my second Hive is going to need to go up in Crossroads due to Marine presence in other places, I will choose Shade. I can then use the map control to slowly secure the area behind it, and drop my third, Shift Hive furthest away from the enemy.
If the game is going to be a long one, then Marines will eventually get Exos/ARCs up and chances are I WILL lose a Hive at some point, and in a situation like described above, that one's almost certainly going to be the one in Crossroads. I'd much rather lose the ability to drop Shades (and possibly lose my Veils too) than be without Shifts/Adrenaline in late game whilst we re-secure the area.
N.B. I will VERY rarely drop Regen or Camo at any point in the game, unless I have a seriously good harassing Lerk who wants it. Giving an inexperienced player the opportunity to choose Camo over Silence is just asking for them to die all the time. And the 25TRes for Regen/15TRes for Camo would be MUCH better spent elsewhere.
Sorry for the double post, but I just read this over again.
This is not true.
Whilst a Harvester going down before 10 ticks does hurt the Commander's TRes economy, as long as the Harvester gets fully built, then the players on the ground benefit from an increased PRes rate all the while it's up. This can be favourable in strategies where you are desperate to get Lerks/Fades/Onos up as quickly as possible.
10 tres, 60 seconds, or "atleast payout for spend res", would mean 0.125 * 10 = 1.25 pres.
I'd would rather save up 10 tres and be able to drop a fade/lerk egg sooner (or upgrade/anything) then give each teammember an additional 1.25 pres, and that is IF you manage to get those 10 ticks out of the harvester anyway.
In any case I would only drop that RT if I have researched pretty much everything and have an abunded of tres. Else that pitty amount of pres gain isn't really worth it.
The choices are only there to mislead the fools.
Attack RT, marine comes in, bite him, fly away -> regen HP while flying to another RT.
Repeat endlessly.
The harass potential of regen lerk is *amazing* I think. Depends on the map, but regen lerk can work anywhere. Try to harass an RT in Docking - Cafeteria with a Cara Lerk if your hive is in Generator. That's alot of flying to get you topped.
As Khamm, if I knew I had 3 good lerks I would defo go regen just for them. But it's just really not good for skulks...
P.S. If the marine team can't really track a lerk, (which is pretty hard) regen lerks are so much murder.
Harassing extractors as a lerk is the first thing you did wrong.
I just tried to come up with a plausible example, really. What I actually do with regen is proceed to roam around the map killing marines left and right. But that's not something I can tell someone to do, because it requires the marines being worse players.
So yeah, everyone is superleetpro scenario. Agreed. Regen is useless. ;p