I'm not trying to speak for the majority. I'm doing some conjecture based on the lack of evidence of a widely-voiced problem. Hence the word 'guess' in my post!
What I do appear to be right on, however, is that this thread boils down to 1 thing: some people think playing against shotguns is not fun to the point that it ruins the game for them.
How many is some? I don't know. Let's try nerfing the shotgun and see what forum-o-meter says about that, shall we?
Or we could stop thinking of the forum as a tool for validating opinions, and rather as a tool for creating them.
I'm not trying to speak for the majority. I'm doing some conjecture based on the lack of evidence of a widely-voiced problem. Hence the word 'guess' in my post!
What I do appear to be right on, however, is that this thread boils down to 1 thing: some people think playing against shotguns is not fun to the point that it ruins the game for them.
How many is some? I don't know. Let's try nerfing the shotgun and see what forum-o-meter says about that, shall we?
Or we could stop thinking of the forum as a tool for validating opinions, and rather as a tool for creating them.
I think that point should be put to the OP, then. :P
Yes, sorry, I thought your initial statement was that "fades can be 2-shotted", and after my clarification you changed your opinion. The problem was that I misunderstood (to be honest, I was too lazy to check it since it was as way back as on the first page) your initial opinion.
Strofix, the video you put explains your and the Op's opinion perfectly. Does the shotgun bring more options to the alien, who receives the shots or does it actually take a lot from them? Well it definitely removes the combat role of the skulk but it changes into RT harasser.
What about the other mechanics?
I think, Strofix is onto something big here and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
I think one thing people are forgetting when talking about one shot kill
weapons in other games is they had a weakness. They were usually only
good at certain range. The sword had to be up close, so you would have
to keep your distance and shoot them down. The sniper was long range,
but if you got up close it was much harder to get hit by it. The fish knife is not a real weapon, it is a QTE to prevent awkward CQB and is still available to both sides. Rockets have always been the super weapon, and are different in different games. in Halo, they were a reward for securing part of the map first. You are meant to get your 2-4 kills with it. But skilled players could still engage at range and counter it easily. In fish, rockets are anti UAV weapons and only had like two shots. They are equally effective at killing players as the main weapon because of the tiny health pools, and they put you at a disadvantage because of single shot. Pro pipes have always been hated by the community and a good example of unbalanced weapons with no counter.
Shotgun vs
skulk has no weakness. Skulk has to be up close where the shotgun is all powerful. And lerk or fade is not a real answer; you can't just pull them out of your ass when you need them.
Shotgun vs
skulk has no weakness. Skulk has to be up close where the shotgun is all powerful. And lerk or fade is not a real answer; you can't just pull them out of your ass when you need them.
And even with Lerks "countering" shotguns, it becomes a question of how often their method of counter is even viable. You can count on one hand the number of locations in NS2 where you can actually get enough range on a marine to be easily out of heavy shotgun damage range. The game is based on small environments, which makes a gun best suited to small environments frequently the best choice.
In a game like BF3, the shotgun is never complained about. Its almost never taken by most players because the times where it shines are far outweighed by the times where you just wish you had a rifle instead. Except, of course in maps like metro. Then everyone is taking the shotgun, and everyone is calling it OP, because all the fighting is so cramped all the time. NS2 maps are basically all analogous to that metro map.
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
I'll be the first to admit that I can't do what you talk about here with the fade. I won't say I have more chance of dying than not, but every time I fight a good shot gunner there is a very real chance that I will be killed, simply because I don't can't play evasively as you talked about.
However, I sure as hell can shoot a fade on my skill level. I've done it many times, you send them packing in one shot, or you kill them in two. The issue here is that someone of my skill level can do the one, but not the other. Two shotting a fade is not really difficult, but avoiding shots while still getting hits on your target requires a lot of skill and practice.
There's a reward imbalance here. And this imbalance is so exacerbated in the case of the skulk vs the shotgun, to the point where eventually, the difference becomes insurmountable.
I also think its important to once again bring to everyone's attention that, in my opinion, no one here is saying that the shotgun is inherently overpowered, or game breaking. The marines are not winning more games than they are losing because of the shotgun. The issue here is that it is making it unfun to play against a shotgun. And not just boohoo baby died once to a good player, but incredibly unenjoyable in many situations.
The only thing i would ever agree on is buffing flame throwers/grenades. I can't agree with OP any further because, I've never had any problems killing shotgunners especially if we did a good ambush. It is freaken frustrating to get 1-2 shotted I agree... but you just have to learn to play around it. You don't want to nerf something and then make this game go through a power creep. Btw op, you seem to be very biased on aliens side. I don't know if it was your intention but nice thread.
High burst damage resulting in the ability to one shot a skulk
Shotgun V Rifle Con's Less Ammo Can't engage effectively at range Longer Reload time Longer cooldown between shots Costs P.Res Less accurate Lower DPS
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Pro's More accurate Damage dealt at point of shooting (rather than several seconds later) Quicker reload More Ammunition Less expensive Higher DPS?
Shotgun V Grenade launcher Con's Lower burst damage Less effective against structures Smaller Area of effect area
Shotgun V Flamethrower Pro's Higher DPS Costs less Quicker reload (if you consider each shell as a reload. reloading a clip takes substantially longer than the Flamethrower)
Shotgun V Flamethrower Con's No Damage over time Smaller area of effect area Does not stop energy regeneration Less ammo
Finally, I mentioned akimbo weapons in cod as an example of a skill-less weapon so you can see what skill-less really means. Those weapons have a high rate of fire, high damage, large bullet spread, quick reload and plenty of ammo. The shotgun in NS2 has a low rate of fire, high damage, medium bullet spread (largest in NS2), slow reload and reasonable amounts of ammo. I have pointed out above the various disadvantages the shotgun has to other NS2 weapons above...You claim there are none. I did not say akimbo's are OP (although they probably are) or that an OP weapon in one game makes it ok in another.
You might want to look at your list again, so much wrong.
Shotgun has higher DPS, you listed its decreased range twice by also listing its accuracy, and shotgun has higher effective ammo, not less.
Grenade Launcher is more accurate than the shotgun. Shotgun is not an area of effect weapon, it is a scatter weapon. Grenades can do full damage to multiple targets while shotgun has a set damage limit. And grenades detonate instantly on a direct hit, only a miss causes the timer.
Shotgun is still not an area of effect weapon. [I dont even know if flamethrower is either though. I would think it is, but it never feels that way in gameplay.] Energy regeneration is not stopped, it is only slowed. Shotgun still has more effective ammo.
Have a nice day. c:
The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not. Flamethrower has more ammo than the shotgun. click 8 times with a shotgun and your out of ammo in your clip, do so with the flamethrower and you've still got most of a tank left. click 40 times with the flamethrower if you like, im not sure that'd empty a clip...it'd empty all the ammo from the shotgun. Rifle has more ammo (as much in 1 clip as the shotgun has in it's entirety). the only weapon with less ammo is the Grenade launcher
If your going to say I'm wrong, the least you can do is check your facts.
Range and Accuracy are not the same, but they do have a cross-over. The range of the shotgun is very small after which there is a large drop off in damage. The accuracy is to what degree the bullets go where you shoot. No the shotgun is not a true area of effect weapon, but the bullet spread is an area where it could do damage to aliens... much like an area of effect. I guess 'cone of fire' is a better phrase to describe both the shotgun and flamethrower.
Edit: yes the grenade from the launcher will detonate on impact with a target, but even then, there is increased travel time compared to the shotgun. I also never stated that grenade launcher had a limited damage. I specifically put a '?' next to 'Higher DPS' because it's really situational, but i feel that in an average scenario, the shotgun carries a higher DPS. I'll give you that one, as i didn't make it clear in my post. You could be right about it [Flamethrower] slowing and not stopping energy regeneration...fair enough...but that's nitpicking a bit don't you think? it's something the flamethrower can do which the shotgun can't.
It's not a complete list of Pro's and Con's, just what I could think of when making the post (at nearly 5am). forgive me if I missed something off.
Range is an important factor in NS2. Yes aliens have to get in close to damage marines... so in a 1v1 situation, they're likely to get a shot to the face.. but when the numbers increase, the marines still have to wait for the aliens to get up close, only this time there are multiple...you can't one shot 2+ skulks simultaneously. Sure, in a 2v2 you could each one-shot a skulk, but that's going to require co-ordination or luck so your not both aiming at the same one and skill to actually hit them...if they get up to you and they're still alive, those marines will go down pretty quickly. as stated before, short range also means you're putting yourself in situations where your open to an ambush when taking down buildings (remember, they're the important things in this game!). Just because aliens need to get in close range it does not mean that range is irrelevant to marines or removing the ability to shoot at range carries no disadvantages.
On that note, I'm done here... I'm simply having to repeat points i've already made several pages ago.
The only thing i would ever agree on is buffing flame throwers/grenades. I can't agree with OP any further because, I've never had any problems killing shotgunners especially if we did a good ambush. It is freaken frustrating to get 1-2 shotted I agree... but you just have to learn to play around it. You don't want to nerf something and then make this game go through a power creep. Btw op, you seem to be very biased on aliens side. I don't know if it was your intention but nice thread.
believe me i have played this game long enough to figure how to counter each and every one of the enemy unit composition in multiple ways with any lifeform or any marine+weapon composition . my recent break have certainly dulled me in certain ways but this is irrelevant. so please, don't bring this learn to play thing as you are not arguing with a rookie.
i certainly enjoy alien side more because of its unique gamestyle that rewards individuality, high skill-cap and ofcourse the way it makes you rely on your brains rather that brute muscle reflexes, ping and fps. but that again is irrelevant.
i am not biased on any side, i am trying to point deficiencies of the game and work for the betterment of it. i think you miss that i am also pointing the underpowered, roleless weapons of the marine side while my main concern is shotgun.
Beyond the argument of fun (again, not necessarily something that a lot of people agree with...), I can see no other valid argument in this thread that supports changing the shotgun, unless I missed something...?
those people who sought fun has already left bro, WAKE UP before its too late. my point does not need validation, it stays there ruining the game. *snip * refrain from name calling and keep things pleasant - Ironhorse *
Beyond the argument of fun (again, not necessarily something that a lot of people agree with...), I can see no other valid argument in this thread that supports changing the shotgun, unless I missed something...?
those people who sought fun has already left bro, WAKE UP before its too late. my point does not need validation, it stays there ruining the game. while your fanboyism blurs your vision
short; you missed the entire thing.
I totally understand your point, and to some extent the rate at which this game seems to be losing players supports your arguments. But you can't blame it on something as trivial (from a broad point of view) as the frustration caused by a single weapon in the game. You just don't know if that's the case. The fact that you find fighting against or with the shotgun frustrating or boring, respectively, doesn't mean that it's the reason or even one of the reasons that people don't find this game enjoyable. NS2 is such an unique flower in the meadow that I could state dozens of reasons off the top of my head why your everyday multiplayer shooter gamers aren't enjoying it, and skulks being one-shotted, especially when it's only in situations that are entirely avoidable with a different approach, wouldn't probably even cross my mind.
Your argument seems to boil down to the following premises (correct me if this is wrong):
1) Being one-shotted is frustrating and not fun (applies in every situation).
2) The shotgun is a one-shot kill weapon and requires no skill to use.
=> Playing a skulk is not fun.
Like a lot of people have stated, the problem with number 1) is that weapons capable of one-shotting have always existed in games with not too many people having too much of a problem with them. The best example that springs to my mind is the AWP. In the hands of a skilled player, it's a lethal one-shot weapon at both long and short range. What's more, there is no other way of countering the AWP than outplaying the opponent with other weapons, and there you are at a disadvantage unless you manage to surprise your opponent, which is entirely analogous to a skulk ambushing a shotgunner. Or you could buy an AWP of your own, which is more or less analogous to countering shotgunners with higher lifeforms. With a skulk, you have the third option of not engaging. In CS not engaging is not really an option, in NS2 it's more often than not the best decision to make. And as I stated in my earlier post, I at least find the role of harassment much more interesting than that of combat.
The problem with number 2) is that I have no idea where the idea of the shotgun not requiring any skill to use springs from. People miss with is just like with any other weapon. You have to wait until the skulk is withing a couple of feet before you can fire the shot that would kill it outright, sooner and the shot will only deal a fraction of the damage, too late and the skulk is already chewing at your feet and you really have to get that shot off or you will die. Miss that shot, and you have a great chance of failing. And people do miss, even pros. Sure, the shotgunner does have the advantage, but so he should. 20pres is by no means free, not even cheap.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Do those that find this mechanic to be un fun find themselves running into this scenario often?
I ask because whenever I die from a one shot blast, I find it was my dumb fault 99% of the time, given the many methods in which you can successfully take down a shotgun.
So i see it like losing : yeah it can be un fun but it *was * counter-able/preventable, so i can't really see a case where something is so wrong it warrants change?? (GL and FT are different topics)
shotguns only become a real problem when the enemy team are sitting on alot of extractors and can keep buying them, then you deserve to loose anyway. If skulks are doing their job correctly then marines shouldnt have so much res they can all keep buying shottys
Basically, if you are a fade, or a Lerk, you do not take on shotgun marines in melee without expecting to die.
WTF are you even talking about? Do you even play this game? You have to be a pretty terrible fade going up against a marine with really good aim + upgraded weapons if you're dying to one or two marines on a regular basis. Not to mention you should almost never be engaging by yourself, unless it's a 1v1. Fades will almost always win 1v1's, until the marines are w3/a3, and even then you still should very rarely die, but you'll probably have to run away. Fades are incredibly strong, and can kill a marine with no upgrades in 2 hits, and IIRC it's still only a 3 hit kill until they get a3 where it'll take 4 hits, but just barely. If you're playing correctly and engaging the marines as a group, the fade should almost never die unless going up against someone who has exceptional aim.
If you're getting OHK'd by shotguns as a Lerk, you either got baited/amubshed around a corner, or you got cocky and decided to go in for a bite when you should've been spiking.
Skulks are countered fairly hard by shotguns, but once leap gets up it becomes entirely possible to win a 1v1 against a shotgunner, and unless the shotgunner has exceptional aim I would say the skulk has a chance of winning nearly half of the time. Especially if you have adrenaline or silence.
I think one of the most telling things about the shotgun though, is that there are a lot of guys out there who would just rather use an LMG. There are 2 guys on my team that will only get a shotgun when they need them to counter fades, because they can kill skulks, lerks, structures, and to some degree onii from a longer distance/safer vantage point. If the shotgun was objectively better in every way than the LMG, that wouldn't be happening.
you see, FADE do never HARD COUNTER anything. a group of 3 marines are capable of defending an area from fade. even a group of 2. now this is perfectly balanced and fun to play. a FADE can not outright rape the oppossition if they use their brains. a fade won't one shot you. if the fade somehow manages to destroy the opposition of 3 or 4. now thats called skill and you will be praised.
when you are killed by a fade, you can actually say " i had a chance to kill but missed it", that's not the case with shotgun vs skulk all you can say is "i had near to zero chance but i took it anyway"
I wonder what kind of weed you smoke bro. A fade leaves no chance whatsoever to a single marine, none, nada, niet. Shotguns ? I'll shadowstep up and down, left and right and the result is the same, a dead marine that had no chance, even the most skilled one. And I'm not even a great fade, I'm just kinda good a juking exits.
This game is a FPS/RTS mash-up. RTS induces hard counters. Shotguns hard counters many lifeform at the cost of pres. Aliens get to pay pres to engage a weapon race, which in turn, hard counters shotgun marines. Which in turn can respond later on with jetpacks, which hard counters other things. This is the nature of this game, enjoy it or leave it.
END. OF. THREAD.
i have 2 things to say to you.
1. thanks god you are not a game developer 2. leave those rookie servers and find real opponents instead of 5 hours-gameplay newbies
1. Thanks god the developers actually think the same way I do, that's the reason they implented the game that way. I hope you realise my POV is the same as NS2's developers, so you're just pretending you're better than them at designing their own game.
2. Leave those rookie servers and start practicing your fade/lerk gameplay.
Oh and thank you, I've played with and against comp players. Try your e-penis flame with someone else.
Comments
@Roobubba
Yes, sorry, I thought your initial statement was that "fades can be 2-shotted", and after my clarification you changed your opinion. The problem was that I misunderstood (to be honest, I was too lazy to check it since it was as way back as on the first page) your initial opinion.
We agree.
What about the other mechanics?
I think, Strofix is onto something big here and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
Shotgun vs skulk has no weakness. Skulk has to be up close where the shotgun is all powerful. And lerk or fade is not a real answer; you can't just pull them out of your ass when you need them.
Flamethrower has more ammo than the shotgun. click 8 times with a shotgun and your out of ammo in your clip, do so with the flamethrower and you've still got most of a tank left. click 40 times with the flamethrower if you like, im not sure that'd empty a clip...it'd empty all the ammo from the shotgun. Rifle has more ammo (as much in 1 clip as the shotgun has in it's entirety). the only weapon with less ammo is the Grenade launcher
If your going to say I'm wrong, the least you can do is check your facts.
Range and Accuracy are not the same, but they do have a cross-over. The range of the shotgun is very small after which there is a large drop off in damage. The accuracy is to what degree the bullets go where you shoot. No the shotgun is not a true area of effect weapon, but the bullet spread is an area where it could do damage to aliens... much like an area of effect. I guess 'cone of fire' is a better phrase to describe both the shotgun and flamethrower.
Edit: yes the grenade from the launcher will detonate on impact with a target, but even then, there is increased travel time compared to the shotgun. I also never stated that grenade launcher had a limited damage. I specifically put a '?' next to 'Higher DPS' because it's really situational, but i feel that in an average scenario, the shotgun carries a higher DPS. I'll give you that one, as i didn't make it clear in my post.
You could be right about it [Flamethrower] slowing and not stopping energy regeneration...fair enough...but that's nitpicking a bit don't you think? it's something the flamethrower can do which the shotgun can't.
It's not a complete list of Pro's and Con's, just what I could think of when making the post (at nearly 5am). forgive me if I missed something off.
Range is an important factor in NS2. Yes aliens have to get in close to damage marines... so in a 1v1 situation, they're likely to get a shot to the face.. but when the numbers increase, the marines still have to wait for the aliens to get up close, only this time there are multiple...you can't one shot 2+ skulks simultaneously. Sure, in a 2v2 you could each one-shot a skulk, but that's going to require co-ordination or luck so your not both aiming at the same one and skill to actually hit them...if they get up to you and they're still alive, those marines will go down pretty quickly. as stated before, short range also means you're putting yourself in situations where your open to an ambush when taking down buildings (remember, they're the important things in this game!).
Just because aliens need to get in close range it does not mean that range is irrelevant to marines or removing the ability to shoot at range carries no disadvantages.
On that note, I'm done here... I'm simply having to repeat points i've already made several pages ago.
short; you missed the entire thing.
I totally understand your point, and to some extent the rate at which this game seems to be losing players supports your arguments. But you can't blame it on something as trivial (from a broad point of view) as the frustration caused by a single weapon in the game. You just don't know if that's the case. The fact that you find fighting against or with the shotgun frustrating or boring, respectively, doesn't mean that it's the reason or even one of the reasons that people don't find this game enjoyable. NS2 is such an unique flower in the meadow that I could state dozens of reasons off the top of my head why your everyday multiplayer shooter gamers aren't enjoying it, and skulks being one-shotted, especially when it's only in situations that are entirely avoidable with a different approach, wouldn't probably even cross my mind.
Your argument seems to boil down to the following premises (correct me if this is wrong):
1) Being one-shotted is frustrating and not fun (applies in every situation).
2) The shotgun is a one-shot kill weapon and requires no skill to use.
=> Playing a skulk is not fun.
Like a lot of people have stated, the problem with number 1) is that weapons capable of one-shotting have always existed in games with not too many people having too much of a problem with them. The best example that springs to my mind is the AWP. In the hands of a skilled player, it's a lethal one-shot weapon at both long and short range. What's more, there is no other way of countering the AWP than outplaying the opponent with other weapons, and there you are at a disadvantage unless you manage to surprise your opponent, which is entirely analogous to a skulk ambushing a shotgunner. Or you could buy an AWP of your own, which is more or less analogous to countering shotgunners with higher lifeforms. With a skulk, you have the third option of not engaging. In CS not engaging is not really an option, in NS2 it's more often than not the best decision to make. And as I stated in my earlier post, I at least find the role of harassment much more interesting than that of combat.
The problem with number 2) is that I have no idea where the idea of the shotgun not requiring any skill to use springs from. People miss with is just like with any other weapon. You have to wait until the skulk is withing a couple of feet before you can fire the shot that would kill it outright, sooner and the shot will only deal a fraction of the damage, too late and the skulk is already chewing at your feet and you really have to get that shot off or you will die. Miss that shot, and you have a great chance of failing. And people do miss, even pros. Sure, the shotgunner does have the advantage, but so he should. 20pres is by no means free, not even cheap.