IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I find its less about air control and more about the ease in which you lose momentum.
Which is such a damaging thing in combat that no new player would actually intend to do this - and yet its pretty much the majority of what you will see in a pub.
Given the ease in which good players (like those posting how to "BT Hop" tutorials) can utilize the current movement mechanics, and who seem to fall into the "loss of momentum trap" mechanics much less if at all, i think that making it more forgiving would only benefit new players by lowering the skill floor without increasing the skill ceiling further.
Topspeed can be reduced but please don't introduce a deceleration while bunnyhopping. It creates this weirdly unsatisfying sensation.
This.... The deaccleration is terrible....
Update:
1 hour after I posted my previous post the walljump/bhop mechanics seem to be reversed and I can go fast again. Stuff is changing on the fly, so guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
Lower the the cap to 12 IMO - That is ridiculously fast...
Yup, agree. 12 would be approximately the same cap as ns1 had, 1.7x base speed.
If its going to lowered to 12, then similar air control mechanics to NS1 would need to be introduced. Travelling at speed 12 in basically a straight line would make it only useful for travelling around the map and useless for combat. I'm aware a bhopping skulk is far more predictable (even in ns1), however it was always a decision between speed / predictability and what was best for the situation.
I would be happy with the following speeds if more air control was provided:
No Celerity: max of 12
Celerity: Max of 14
All this talk of having to spend hours mastering something begs the question: Who are we targeting here? Are we targeting the casual player who wants to have as much fun the first time they open the game as every other time? Or the hardcore "gamer" who is willing to waste away in front of his monitor for hours mastering a tiny element of the game? I can guarantee that there are a lot more of the first group than the second.
The mechanical skill requirement showcased in the video is effectively negated with celerity / leap. Having either one of those basically means you can reach max speed extremely quickly without having to chain multiple walljumps.
That the skill floor is low enough so that the movement system is equally as accessible as the live build - and personally i do not find this to be the case when observing the frequent scenario of 24 player pubs with BT mod. They flail about and nearly freeze in air, mid jump, with barely any momentum - basically its like shooting fish in a barrel for any marine.
I think it needs adjusting still.
Yeah, totally.
Hey I have an idea
You need to add a giant hand that comes down from the skies so that the players can hold it when they're scared or about to cry.
Cause this noob care bear attitude is really doing you guys alot of good isn't it?
The changes will not affect casual gamers. At all.
It's like comparing something like tracking (aiming) - it gives skulks something that can scale more with player skill. Are casual players who don't track particularly well unable to enjoy/play the game? There have been players of all skill levels playing the game for months, and the sky hasn't fallen. The only thing the movement changes hope to accomplish is to bring some of that skill ceiling potential marines have to aliens as well. It will change absolutely nothing for the casual player. It's really not a "casual VS competitive" change, it is simply a change that aims to bring more depth to the game, so that those who do enjoy sinking hours into the game will have something more to explore, as opposed to hitting a rather static and boring skill ceiling that the skulk movement on live has now.
It takes nothing away from the current skulk movement. It only adds more.
While i agree overall, this assumes one thing:
That the skill floor is low enough so that the movement system is equally as accessible as the live build - and personally i do not find this to be the case when observing the frequent scenario of 24 player pubs with BT mod. They flail about and nearly freeze in air, mid jump, with barely any momentum - basically its like shooting fish in a barrel for any marine.
I think it needs adjusting still.
I haven't tried any of this BT movement yet, but this quote reminded me of the bunny hopping vs strafe jumping in HL1 mods. If you weren't able to or didn't want to put in the time to master bhopping, there was a lesser equivalent in strafe jumping that pretty much anyone could do and didn't penalize you as hard if you messed up.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Koven "Easy to learn, difficult to master" was one of the design goals of this game from the get go, and seeing as how many report back that the learning curve on this game was issue #2 generally (with #1 being performance) and given the ease of use and hand holding that comes with modern day games and thus gamers - i think its generally a good idea to reach for that goal. You'll notice if you read what i wrote i didnt say to dumb things down or even effect the skill ceiling?... so it wouldn't effect players like you?
My belief of "easy to learn, difficult to master" being so crucial for an immediate and then sustained player base was nailed home after personally watching thousands and thousands of new players in person attempt to play NS2 for the first time at 2 different PAX events.. (last one had 90,000 walk through it)
Also, no need for flame baiting behavior like you posted.
I think mf might of made this look a bit easier than it is. The chain jumps in vent and the uneven rock surface in comp in particular, if you mess it up at all you're back to square one. Celerity and leap are still both extremely useful upgrades - even if you are capable of gaining momentum from a stop in a few clever wall-wall glances. Both upgrades shine in combat, celerity tones down the momentum punishment from trying some more outlandish dodges and weaves. It's also a beastly choice for fades, and as long as leap propels skulks upwards it's always going to be relevant and a mid-late game requirement.
mf is a poor guide for the average player...who never stands a chance of achieving his level of movement.
Whilst mf can pull these things off...he can also pull off alot of stuff in game most of us could only dream of.
@Calego your spot on....the skulk movement is in no way aimed at the casual player...who wont bother investing the time....and the skulk is extremely dependant on movement to be of any real use in combat.
The skulks hard enough for new players to learn to use (let alone the lerk and fade (onos is somewhat of a tank so less troublesome...and plays more like a big skulk), increasing the skill floor does nothing to help new players...or retain players.
@Koven "Easy to learn, difficult to master" was one of the design goals of this game from the get go, and seeing as how many report back that the learning curve on this game was issue #2 generally (with #1 being performance) and given the ease of use and hand holding that comes with modern day games and thus gamers - i think its generally a good idea to reach for that goal. You'll notice if you read what i wrote i didnt say to dumb things down or even effect the skill ceiling?... so it wouldn't effect players like you?
Right now, the last how ever many months/years ns2 has been in beta/released and in the foreseeable future ns2 would fit "Difficult to learn, tedious to master"
How does a change like this not affect me? You just lowered the speed at which a better player can travel and made it more tedious, simply because casual players can't do it/be bothered to learn.
It reflects UWE's design changes since the beginning.
Have good aim? Nah sorry bro you're blind now (lighting, gorge spit, rupture)
Can pistol whip like a mofo? Nah sorry m8 your pistol fire speed is capped now.
There are tonnes more but I'm sure you get the idea.
I'm not trying to have a go at you personally but UWE's/associates design decisions in general.
Right now, the last how ever many months/years ns2 has been in beta/released and in the foreseeable future ns2 would fit "Difficult to learn, tedious to master"
How does a change like this not affect me? You just lowered the speed at which a better player can travel, simply because casual players can't do it/be bothered to learn.
It reflects UWE's design changes since the beginning.
Have good aim? Nah sorry bro you're blind now (lighting, gorge spit, rupture)
Can pistol whip like a mofo? Nah sorry m8 your pistol fire speed is capped now.
I'm sure you get the idea.
I'm not trying to have a go at you personally but UWE's/associates design decisions in general.
Even so there is no reason why we can't keep this discussions civil, constructive and friendly. All feedback you read has something of value in it, even if you don't see it right away. Its never by some accident players find something frustrating or feel like something needs a change.
The lose of momentum trap might actually be little bit to high like Ironhorse mentions but its not clear if this can be fixed. Players should be punished a little bit for hitting the marine by losing the momentum but being stuck in the air and not able to move for half a sec does feel a bit unresponsive afterwards. With experience you can learn to avoid this from happening but If its possible to make it just a little bit less frustrating then it should be ok.
The mechanics should always feel that you die because you made a mistake or got outplayed. When the controls or mechanics start to feel unresponsive it can quickly add up some frustration. It does not matter if its a beginner or a veteran, we always want to keep the frustration and the negative aspect of the gameplay at a minimum. Players should enjoy playing and getting better at the game.
The skulk speed was probably to fast without celerity. Maybe with cel it could go a bit faster but Sewlek is also trying to be careful that no upgrade is the upgrade that everyone must have. Similar to carapace in vanilla or celerity was to fades in ns1. You can still increase your speed quite a lot if you are skilled with the skulk and its still being improved upon.
I do agree that there are to many many things that blocks vision in ns2, this causes more frustration to new players and vets alike. Hopefully the bigger issues like umbra and fade blink after effects can be reduced in time.
Pistol had to be capped somehow and you will get quickly used to it, even so it does feel a bit frustrating at first. Personally I would like to see a little bit rof (since I can press faster than the current one) but at the same time understand why this change was made. Rather than arguing about it you could suggest a different rof to try out such as 1.2 or 1.3 shots per sec. If pistol turns out to be to weak then it can be tested.
If we can keep the discussions friendly then much more information will go through and more players will read it. It can be really hard to do on the forums at times but we just have to manage .
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@koven : The design choices you listed (even the inaccurate pistol claim ) were all to lower the skill ceiling.. which is not what i was suggesting, again??
Please see here:
Given the ease in which good players (like those posting how to "BT Hop" tutorials) can utilize the current movement mechanics, and who seem to fall into the "loss of momentum trap" mechanics much less if at all, i think that making it more forgiving would only benefit new players by lowering the skill floor without increasing the skill ceiling further.
This is because the current skill ceiling has little or no issues with losing all of their momentum - they have fine control of it, and much more.
Whereas the majority of players have very little understanding of what exactly is causing their loss of momentum (not just from colliding with marines but also sharp mouse movements or jumping at the wrong moment) and even if they figure it out are not good at acclimating to said change and more than likely will not put the time into it as a hardcore player would.
Basically: it can be done better by being more forgiving, allowing a sharper gradient until said player can become as good as the unaffected skilled player by focusing more on things like timing and the finer points of said movement, etc.
If you disliked NS2 being "difficult to learn, tedius to master" then i don't see how you couldn't be in agreement with my suggestion?
All this coming from the guy who can't even bone wall properly, koven m80 pls m8.
Since the bhop is changing everyday I will hold off shit posting but something drastic needs to happen in regards to key movement or air accel/timing of jumps, I see 0 reason as to why A and D are used to bhop except as some horrible throwback to back in the day, except A/D seems to work better than W does for starting and maintaining aside from randomly dropping out mid bhop or trying to chase after a marine in combat and pressing A/D+spacebar to follow his jump and just jumping up and down on the spot like an idiot.
Fade bhop is I don't even, I just don't even, holding down crouch and blinking and starting to jump either hyper accelerates you or goes normal and it seems at total random or mid combat you just stop or lose all momentum, blink is chewing up more energy than what it's worth in combat vs good marines and is re defining the meaning of hit and run because vs 1-2 marines you are literally blowing an energy bar to get off 2 swipes before blinking back out again.
BT mod fade can't even be in the room next to a room with 2-3 shotgun marines without full 6/6 upgrades, I got nfi how a fade without adren could possibly work in tight areas, suggest that blink move 1 to 2 points faster if we absolutely have to go back to NS 1 fade again.
In ns1 it was a major risk entering a room with 2-3 shotgun marines, shotguns fired 2 times faster and marines had much easier time blocking you if you made any movement mistakes. Even if Fades are strong in 1v1 situations they should not engage so many marines alone and expect to win them with ease. They should team up with other lifeforms and engage together. In BT a lerk with umbra also makes a world of difference. Even a solo shotgun can destroy a fade with effective medpacks(or has high armor upgrade) if the fade misses a single swipe in both games.
I think most people need to learn the new fade better, personally I have found this fade to be slightly overpowered, and I have always been playing regen/celerity/aura if available. I do sometimes find I am slightly energy constrained but that is usually only when fighting multiple marines over extended engagements, so thats not something I would consider an issue.
I think most people need to learn the new fade better, personally I have found this fade to be slightly overpowered, and I have always been playing regen/celerity/aura if available. I do sometimes find I am slightly energy constrained but that is usually only when fighting multiple marines over extended engagements, so thats not something I would consider an issue.
Agreed, I can barely fade anymore on live fade.
Dragon I know you work quite closely with sewlek on the BT, is there a direction you are trying to take the skulk movement? I'm talking speed limit, deacceleration on bhop ect.
Please don't say "new fade" there's no confirmation of the fade changes being carried over so don't make me go relearn something I don't need/want to
Just learn it! It'll only take you like an hour and it's actually way better. I hated it at first too, so much so that it colored my outlook on the whole balance mod, but once I put the time in I started loving it.
Dragon has it right, go celerity/aura/regen, you can travel around the map pretty effortlessly with bhop once you get it down. The new shadowstep is amazing.
...
As probably the best mechanical fade in ns2, all I feel is completely gimped because of the complete lack of energy
...
rofl. Have you considered that maybe you arn't playing bt fade properly? Infact, are you even playing vanilla fade properly? Spamming shadowstep is exactly how you don't die to shotguns. Wait, isn't this something you've said before?
How many top level aimers do you play against regularly? They'll hit shots on you no matter what you do. All those shadowstepping and double jump options are really important for mitigating their shot damage and percentage. And if you want to lower their damage as much as possible, you better be using as much energy as possible.
More like, spam shadowstep double jump with a-d strafing in the air and swiping as you pass marines. Not shadowstep walker fade into their faces with M1 spam.. like 95% of pub fades.
Most comp fades haven't mastered it at all, but they aren't walker fades (mostly).
Comments
Which is such a damaging thing in combat that no new player would actually intend to do this - and yet its pretty much the majority of what you will see in a pub.
Given the ease in which good players (like those posting how to "BT Hop" tutorials) can utilize the current movement mechanics, and who seem to fall into the "loss of momentum trap" mechanics much less if at all, i think that making it more forgiving would only benefit new players by lowering the skill floor without increasing the skill ceiling further.
This.... The deaccleration is terrible....
Update:
1 hour after I posted my previous post the walljump/bhop mechanics seem to be reversed and I can go fast again. Stuff is changing on the fly, so guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
If its going to lowered to 12, then similar air control mechanics to NS1 would need to be introduced. Travelling at speed 12 in basically a straight line would make it only useful for travelling around the map and useless for combat. I'm aware a bhopping skulk is far more predictable (even in ns1), however it was always a decision between speed / predictability and what was best for the situation.
I would be happy with the following speeds if more air control was provided:
No Celerity: max of 12
Celerity: Max of 14
No deceleration when bhopping
The mechanical skill requirement showcased in the video is effectively negated with celerity / leap. Having either one of those basically means you can reach max speed extremely quickly without having to chain multiple walljumps.
Also see rantology's excellent rebuttal.
Yeah, totally.
Hey I have an idea
You need to add a giant hand that comes down from the skies so that the players can hold it when they're scared or about to cry.
Cause this noob care bear attitude is really doing you guys alot of good isn't it?
ns2 10/10
said no one ever
I haven't tried any of this BT movement yet, but this quote reminded me of the bunny hopping vs strafe jumping in HL1 mods. If you weren't able to or didn't want to put in the time to master bhopping, there was a lesser equivalent in strafe jumping that pretty much anyone could do and didn't penalize you as hard if you messed up.
My belief of "easy to learn, difficult to master" being so crucial for an immediate and then sustained player base was nailed home after personally watching thousands and thousands of new players in person attempt to play NS2 for the first time at 2 different PAX events.. (last one had 90,000 walk through it)
Also, no need for flame baiting behavior like you posted.
mf is a poor guide for the average player...who never stands a chance of achieving his level of movement.
Whilst mf can pull these things off...he can also pull off alot of stuff in game most of us could only dream of.
@Calego your spot on....the skulk movement is in no way aimed at the casual player...who wont bother investing the time....and the skulk is extremely dependant on movement to be of any real use in combat.
The skulks hard enough for new players to learn to use (let alone the lerk and fade (onos is somewhat of a tank so less troublesome...and plays more like a big skulk), increasing the skill floor does nothing to help new players...or retain players.
Right now, the last how ever many months/years ns2 has been in beta/released and in the foreseeable future ns2 would fit "Difficult to learn, tedious to master"
How does a change like this not affect me? You just lowered the speed at which a better player can travel and made it more tedious, simply because casual players can't do it/be bothered to learn.
It reflects UWE's design changes since the beginning.
Have good aim? Nah sorry bro you're blind now (lighting, gorge spit, rupture)
Can pistol whip like a mofo? Nah sorry m8 your pistol fire speed is capped now.
There are tonnes more but I'm sure you get the idea.
I'm not trying to have a go at you personally but UWE's/associates design decisions in general.
Even so there is no reason why we can't keep this discussions civil, constructive and friendly. All feedback you read has something of value in it, even if you don't see it right away. Its never by some accident players find something frustrating or feel like something needs a change.
The lose of momentum trap might actually be little bit to high like Ironhorse mentions but its not clear if this can be fixed. Players should be punished a little bit for hitting the marine by losing the momentum but being stuck in the air and not able to move for half a sec does feel a bit unresponsive afterwards. With experience you can learn to avoid this from happening but If its possible to make it just a little bit less frustrating then it should be ok.
The mechanics should always feel that you die because you made a mistake or got outplayed. When the controls or mechanics start to feel unresponsive it can quickly add up some frustration. It does not matter if its a beginner or a veteran, we always want to keep the frustration and the negative aspect of the gameplay at a minimum. Players should enjoy playing and getting better at the game.
The skulk speed was probably to fast without celerity. Maybe with cel it could go a bit faster but Sewlek is also trying to be careful that no upgrade is the upgrade that everyone must have. Similar to carapace in vanilla or celerity was to fades in ns1. You can still increase your speed quite a lot if you are skilled with the skulk and its still being improved upon.
I do agree that there are to many many things that blocks vision in ns2, this causes more frustration to new players and vets alike. Hopefully the bigger issues like umbra and fade blink after effects can be reduced in time.
Pistol had to be capped somehow and you will get quickly used to it, even so it does feel a bit frustrating at first. Personally I would like to see a little bit rof (since I can press faster than the current one) but at the same time understand why this change was made. Rather than arguing about it you could suggest a different rof to try out such as 1.2 or 1.3 shots per sec. If pistol turns out to be to weak then it can be tested.
If we can keep the discussions friendly then much more information will go through and more players will read it. It can be really hard to do on the forums at times but we just have to manage
Please see here:
This is because the current skill ceiling has little or no issues with losing all of their momentum - they have fine control of it, and much more.
Whereas the majority of players have very little understanding of what exactly is causing their loss of momentum (not just from colliding with marines but also sharp mouse movements or jumping at the wrong moment) and even if they figure it out are not good at acclimating to said change and more than likely will not put the time into it as a hardcore player would.
Basically: it can be done better by being more forgiving, allowing a sharper gradient until said player can become as good as the unaffected skilled player by focusing more on things like timing and the finer points of said movement, etc.
If you disliked NS2 being "difficult to learn, tedius to master" then i don't see how you couldn't be in agreement with my suggestion?
All this coming from the guy who can't even bone wall properly, koven m80 pls m8.
Since the bhop is changing everyday I will hold off shit posting but something drastic needs to happen in regards to key movement or air accel/timing of jumps, I see 0 reason as to why A and D are used to bhop except as some horrible throwback to back in the day, except A/D seems to work better than W does for starting and maintaining aside from randomly dropping out mid bhop or trying to chase after a marine in combat and pressing A/D+spacebar to follow his jump and just jumping up and down on the spot like an idiot.
Fade bhop is I don't even, I just don't even, holding down crouch and blinking and starting to jump either hyper accelerates you or goes normal and it seems at total random or mid combat you just stop or lose all momentum, blink is chewing up more energy than what it's worth in combat vs good marines and is re defining the meaning of hit and run because vs 1-2 marines you are literally blowing an energy bar to get off 2 swipes before blinking back out again.
BT mod fade can't even be in the room next to a room with 2-3 shotgun marines without full 6/6 upgrades, I got nfi how a fade without adren could possibly work in tight areas, suggest that blink move 1 to 2 points faster if we absolutely have to go back to NS 1 fade again.
Agreed, I can barely fade anymore on live fade.
Dragon I know you work quite closely with sewlek on the BT, is there a direction you are trying to take the skulk movement? I'm talking speed limit, deacceleration on bhop ect.
Evolve or die.
Yeah
Just learn it! It'll only take you like an hour and it's actually way better. I hated it at first too, so much so that it colored my outlook on the whole balance mod, but once I put the time in I started loving it.
Dragon has it right, go celerity/aura/regen, you can travel around the map pretty effortlessly with bhop once you get it down. The new shadowstep is amazing.
anybody spamming shadowstep m1 in vanilla will get owned by good shotgunners
*scratches head*
my impression from the post was from the numerous fades (including comp fades) that spam shadowstep into marines' faces and hold down m1
Most comp fades haven't mastered it at all, but they aren't walker fades (mostly).
i really need it man
my fade is so mechanically bad
those skills carry over 2 ez