Proposed Balance Changes - Natural Selection 2

16781012

Comments

  • RobotixRobotix Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Members
    Therius wrote: »
    Robotix wrote: »
    Ah, the age old internet argument, "Someone doesn't agree with me; they must be a troll!"...

    Replace 'me' with 'anyone' and that sounds a lot more correct and sensible.

    This thread disagrees with you.
  • ampereampere Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181237Members
    Just to comment on my experience as a new player in BT (well I have 15 hours, but I suck). I have not read the entire thread.

    * I thought shulk kills where a little easier for me to get. Which I liked. It was still a challenge, but I wasn't just getting slaughtered like I did before BT. (My opponents where not that great either, rookie server, so it was reasonable for me to get a few kills)
    * I though gorge was harder to play. Especially I had more trouble staying alive and keeping up enough pres to build. I'm not sure what the difference was.

    Just throwing it out.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Robotix wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    Robotix wrote: »
    Ah, the age old internet argument, "Someone doesn't agree with me; they must be a troll!"...

    Replace 'me' with 'anyone' and that sounds a lot more correct and sensible.

    This thread disagrees with you.

    Quote me one other person who says that 12vs12 is far more balanced than 6vs6.

    Quote me one other person who says that teamwork is more important in 12vs12 than 6vs6.

    This is probably the easiest, but I'd still like to see it: quote me one other person who says that the BT fade's skill ceiling is lower than that of the vanilla fade.

    Even finding people who've said this might be impossible, but finding someone who can make these claims sound plausible will be impossible indeed.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    BT will only add depth and strategy.

    * Building on infestation at cost allows for sneak phase gates just like in NS1. This forces better scouting & more defense on the alien side while they can not slip up and stop pushing marines either.
    * Unlocking crags, shifts and shades will enable the kham with a much broader list of options for strategy and making the choice of a hive upgrade less black & white.
    * A ability to power a structure in a powerless room can again shift the momentum in certain situations and hopefully make aliens learn to hit something which costs res and not the free, easy to repair power node.
    * Putting Exo and JP at CC1 while nerfing them, but putting updates back to buff them up again allows for a much broader strategy.
    * And the old ns1 alien upgrade mechanic of 3 chambers each for max upgrade level, but even 1 chamber granting all upgrades... awesome. NS1 has proven this works truly well, and I still wonder why it was ever changed.

    We gained mostly depth while losing only stuff like player vs structure, which is most cases players find less fun then player vs player. (Exceptions surely arise)

    I detested the bunnyhop like mechanic in the BT and hope it never makes it live, I didnt enjoy doing bunnyhop in ns1 either. But if it means it ships with the rest of the mostly awesome list im all for it.


    Sewlek has indeed been on multiple bt servers himself. Seen him on EU servers also, and since uwe is not eu im asuming he also spend time in the US on BT servers.
    These were open to the public and besides the forum folk, playtesters, competitive players.. many puggers and even brand new rookies joined the BT often.
    He listened to any player in my experience, and tried to give constructive feedback & questions. I have no doubt whatsoever that he took the total picture in mind, and not just competitive players & ns1 vets.
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Xao wrote: »
    Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it.

    What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.

    Yeah m8 those full 24/7 16p servers ay, see them heaps.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    lessening the fade ball.... specifically for pubs...
    My mind is still reeling how you came to the exact opposite conclusions?..

    And my mind is reeling how you're pretending that 3-5 fades in a 6v6 competitive setting hasn't been 'the thing' that's happened the last 3-4 months and you're here to tell me it's those nasty fade balls of 4 fades vs 10-12 marines I see in pub games all the time being addressed...

    I completely get how SS spamming is boring to comp players, we replaced the shift key with the space bar key in BT mod, stunning improvement, especially considering SS now keeps momentum mid jump...so its usage will soon mimic current live SS, just only in combat.

    Standard fade in BT mod has 80 armour, cara fade has 100 armour, farkkkk, I can spend 5tres and gain 20 whole armour or 40 EHP, is it even 40 EHP with the new rupturedickpunchmclargehuge™ dmg being dealt by BT SG? All these new boundaries and choices to make, so many activities, cara is now shit so I pick regen because it's the only other option on the crag hive. I'm so glad carapace was tossed under the bus because it was the best min/max choice in 6v6 and I'll forever deal with less armour/survivability in public games against marine teams with double the marines on it.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Xao wrote: »
    Xao wrote: »
    Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it.

    What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.

    Yeah m8 those full 24/7 16p servers ay, see them heaps.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    lessening the fade ball.... specifically for pubs...
    My mind is still reeling how you came to the exact opposite conclusions?..

    And my mind is reeling how you're pretending that 3-5 fades in a 6v6 competitive setting hasn't been 'the thing' that's happened the last 3-4 months and you're here to tell me it's those nasty fade balls of 4 fades vs 10-12 marines I see in pub games all the time being addressed...

    I completely get how SS spamming is boring to comp players, we replaced the shift key with the space bar key in BT mod, stunning improvement, especially considering SS now keeps momentum mid jump...so its usage will soon mimic current live SS, just only in combat.

    Standard fade in BT mod has 80 armour, cara fade has 100 armour, farkkkk, I can spend 5tres and gain 20 whole armour or 40 EHP, is it even 40 EHP with the new rupturedickpunchmclargehuge™ dmg being dealt by BT SG? All these new boundaries and choices to make, so many activities, cara is now shit so I pick regen because it's the only other option on the crag hive. I'm so glad carapace was tossed under the bus because it was the best min/max choice in 6v6 and I'll forever deal with less armour/survivability in public games against marine teams with double the marines on it.

    Someone seems upset.
  • MrFangsMrFangs Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    BT has
    - Bhop
    - Blink w/ momentum
    - Shadow Step wo/ momentum, additionally you can SS up/down/diagonal which you can't do in vanilla

    Live has
    - Double jump
    - Blink wo/ momentum
    - Shadow step w/ momentum
    Are we playing the same vanilla NS2?

    "additionally you can SS up/down/diagonal which you can't do in vanilla"
    -> Of course you can SS diagonally in Live? Hold W+D, press shift.

    "Live has [...] Blink wo/ momentum"
    -> Standard forward walking speed is ~7.2. Hold W, enter Blink, jump, leave Blink. You keep flying forward with ~15 speed. How is that not momentum by any definition?
    I'll tell you why the skill ceiling is higher:
    - Requirement of energy management when traversing map & combat
    So an unskilled Fade player in Live can zoom across the map without running into energy problems? Interesting...
    - Your movement is now predictable, hence you need to make more decisions of
    how you will start a combat engagement, how to move in combat (instead of spamming low energy cost shadow step & blink) and appropriate escape routes.
    ...because Fades in Live can easily rush into several shotgun marines and live. No need to pick your battles. Just spam shift!
    So you loose double jump, but gain bhop + vertical & diagonal shadow step and everything else is the same....
    No, you
    - loose double jump
    - loose SS momentum
    - get a weaker SS overall
    and in return, you gain
    - vertical SS (which adds nothing over vertical Blink)
    - and a retarded mechanic known as bhop.

    ...wow, that sounds AWESOME. Not.
  • RobotixRobotix Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Members
    edited June 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    Quote me one other person who says that 12vs12 is far more balanced than 6vs6.

    Erm... why? That isn't an opinion; it's a fact. It is common knowledge that 6v6 is horribly imbalanced having had a ~73% alien win rate for months. I'm honestly surprised you don't know this.
    Quote me one other person who says that teamwork is more important in 12vs12 than 6vs6.

    I didn't say teamwork was more important, I just said there was more teamwork. This is easily shown by basic math (12 is more than 6).
    This is probably the easiest, but I'd still like to see it: quote me one other person who says that the BT fade's skill ceiling is lower than that of the vanilla fade.

    Look, and you shall see. Search, and you shall find.
    Even finding people who've said this might be impossible, but finding someone who can make these claims sound plausible will be impossible indeed.

    Of course it is impossible to make those claims sound plausible to you, considering you just rejected things that were well known facts (only the last one was my opinion).
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Locklear wrote: »
    Someone seems upset.
    That's just Xao. You get used to him. He's become a pillar of truth and justice within the AusNS2 community.
  • KalopsiaKalopsia Join Date: 2003-05-15 Member: 16331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I haven't played BT mod as of yet but the proposed changes seem interesting. Think I will have to give it a shot this weekend!
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited June 2013
    Oh wow I gotta stop posting before I embarrass myself. This guy uses math after all.
  • MinimumMinimum Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176382Members
    I'll see what I can do about making a mod that reverts gameplay back to 249. It should be easy enough. The real problem would be getting a server to host it.

    Maybe we could even start our own balance mod that focuses on making things easier for beginners while keeping the current skill ceiling. After all, a too high skill floor and performance issues is what plagues vanilla NS2.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    Minimum wrote: »
    After all, a too high skill floor and performance issues is what plagues vanilla NS2.

    Performance i think is fine atm.... High skill floor? Maybe if you haven't played an fps in the last 5 years
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    don't revert to 249...
    if you want to balance the balance mod, change random tech or structure costs

    it's important for everyone to be playing the same game, in terms of the mechanics

    the gameplay overhaul mod will probably take a while to actually be close to balanced for the various settings...
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Minimum wrote: »
    I'll see what I can do about making a mod that reverts gameplay back to 249. It should be easy enough. The real problem would be getting a server to host it.

    Maybe we could even start our own balance mod that focuses on making things easier for beginners while keeping the current skill ceiling. After all, a too high skill floor and performance issues is what plagues vanilla NS2.

    Why do this when even the creators of the game are moving away from how things are. Don't you realize that if there wasnt anything wrong with vanilla NS2 none of the balance mod would have happened? Trust in the devs and dont fracture the community further. When things go live by all means make threads about what you dont like and why. Things that dont work or get enough negative feedback get reversed (Tazer or Lerk Bile Bomb to name a few). At this point the only way you can do your "damage control" is play the mod a lot and post in Sewlek's Balance mod or make another thread if it is a big enough issue. Having a way to fix or modify it to be more palatable is a good first step. Anything else is just unconstructive whining.
  • OgraitOgrait Join Date: 2012-10-29 Member: 164306Members
    So much bad breath here in forums. I do not like many things in BT (but also things i like). I have maybe 6h clocked bt. Good to know its now locked down. I kind of trust UWE can make it. Fade is nice but i like more vanilla (dont know if that strafejumping is still on). Skulk is different yeah, but overall i trust people that have played it more.
  • MinimumMinimum Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176382Members
    If BT were kept a mod I would have no problem with it. Trying to force BT onto us only forces my hand. Why should the people who don't like BT mod have to "deal with it"? You realize that the anti-BTers will likely just leave if a vanilla mod isn't created right? I know I would.

    You've backed the other anti-BTers and I into a corner. I'm just turning defeat into a fighting chance to play the game we have always loved and played.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Better save those lua files now boys before they're gone.
  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I cant wait to see what this brings to the gameplay of diffrent games and on diffrent maps.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    Minimum wrote: »
    If BT were kept a mod I would have no problem with it. Trying to force BT onto us only forces my hand. Why should the people who don't like BT mod have to "deal with it"? You realize that the anti-BTers will likely just leave if a vanilla mod isn't created right? I know I would.

    You've backed the other anti-BTers and I into a corner. I'm just turning defeat into a fighting chance to play the game we have always loved and played.

    you can of course do whatever you want, but it would be more helpful to keep everyone on the same version of the game

    if your goal is to play this game long-term, then figuring out how to tweak whatever is official into a game you want to play is going to be a better plan than reverting to some older build

    even if your tweaks are simply reverting entire changes, it's better to tweak the live version than to hang off of an older one
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Just played some more BT today. Flamers OP. Wave it over a skulk 3 times and it's dead. Wave it over 3 hydras once and they all die. Otherwise things seem pretty good :)
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Locklear wrote: »
    Someone seems upset.

    I was going to shit post a reply to the bench master but I thought I'd just play a game of the awesome BT mod instead since I saw a full BT server in Australia, a rare sight, fired up the game browser to find the BT server was now 6/18 and not 18/18 and the 24 player live server was now 11/24...may or may be indicative of what happens when this bad boy goes live.

    I'm sure it has nothing to do with brilliant changes like:

    Problem: Carapace is really good in a competitive setting because competitive players group think and circle jerk themselves into a fit and won't start anything else.

    Solution: Nerf it.

    One word, spectacular.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    edited June 2013
    HAHA you guys agreeing with Xao don't even realise he's Australia's most famous troll.
  • RobotixRobotix Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Members
    HAHA you guys agreeing with Xao don't even realise he's Australia's most famous troll.

    That is cute, coming from you.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Any chance you guys could give the trolling & shit-slinging a break? I'd rather not have to trawl through the past few pages and deleting posts.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Xao wrote: »
    Xao wrote: »

    Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it. There's no way for a pub fade to mitigate the 10 dmg per second each additional marine in a room on a higher pop server can put on him with BT fade except "not be in the room". NS1 fades were at least self sufficient with metabolise and eventually focus, NS2 live fades have an OP mechanic that has allowed them to warp all over the map and in combat, BT fades get a dick in the arse with no added benefits.

    What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.

    Yeah m8 those full 24/7 16p servers ay, see them heaps.

    NS2 has always been unbalanced at anything larger than 16 players, so there's nothing new going on there.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    Xao wrote: »
    Xao wrote: »

    Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it. There's no way for a pub fade to mitigate the 10 dmg per second each additional marine in a room on a higher pop server can put on him with BT fade except "not be in the room". NS1 fades were at least self sufficient with metabolise and eventually focus, NS2 live fades have an OP mechanic that has allowed them to warp all over the map and in combat, BT fades get a dick in the arse with no added benefits.

    What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.

    Yeah m8 those full 24/7 16p servers ay, see them heaps.

    NS2 has always been unbalanced at anything larger than 16 players, so there's nothing new going on there.

    Hm I wouldn't say always.

    "24 player servers was surprisingly balanced up until 239/240 when skulks became a lot easier to kill due to hitbox fixes, lower skulk acceleration and generally increased performance."

    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2105621/#Comment_2105621

    I wonder what the stats look like now for all player counts. Maybe time for a win rate by player count article along with the time taken for each team to win? I mean since the BT mod is going to hit soon what would it hurt right?
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    This has probably been said several times before...

    BT fade is really bad. I personally don't find it no where near as fun, or fun at all. I may not be as good with the BT fade with only having a few hours but I don't feel like I want to get more hours in. Very subjective I know. I absolutely love the shadow step movement in vanilla. I feel like I have so much more control in combat.

    On a more objective stance, celerity fade is not an option anymore. In vanilla I like to play Carapace celerity fade because I don't often need the extra energy adrenaline provides. In BT I don't see celerity as an option because you really really need that extra energy.
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    edited June 2013
    james888 wrote: »
    This has probably been said several times before...

    BT fade is really bad. I personally don't find it no where near as fun, or fun at all. I may not be as good with the BT fade with only having a few hours but I don't feel like I want to get more hours in. Very subjective I know. I absolutely love the shadow step movement in vanilla. I feel like I have so much more control in combat.

    On a more objective stance, celerity fade is not an option anymore. In vanilla I like to play Carapace celerity fade because I don't often need the extra energy adrenaline provides. In BT I don't see celerity as an option because you really really need that extra energy.
    What?! On the contrary. Celerity is utterly useless in vanilla because it only affects walking speed and doesn't work in combat. With BT, celerity fade is finally an option because it works in combat and you can maintain speed for ages without using blink at all.

    Also, changing the amount of control or rather the way you can control a fade in combat is the whole point of the BT changes. Instant top speed via vision obscuring teleport is not what anyone with any game sense calls fair or balanced. It's fun, obviously, but only because it's piss easy to do and virtually impossible to predict for marines in close combat.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    james888 wrote: »
    This has probably been said several times before...

    BT fade is really bad. I personally don't find it no where near as fun, or fun at all. I may not be as good with the BT fade with only having a few hours but I don't feel like I want to get more hours in. Very subjective I know. I absolutely love the shadow step movement in vanilla. I feel like I have so much more control in combat.

    On a more objective stance, celerity fade is not an option anymore. In vanilla I like to play Carapace celerity fade because I don't often need the extra energy adrenaline provides. In BT I don't see celerity as an option because you really really need that extra energy.
    What?! On the contrary. Celerity is utterly useless in vanilla because it only affects walking speed and doesn't work in combat. With BT, celerity fade is finally an option because it works in combat and you can maintain speed for ages without using blink at all.

    Also, changing the amount of control or rather the way you can control a fade in combat is the whole point of the BT changes. Instant top speed via vision obscuring teleport is not what anyone with any game sense calls fair or balanced. It's fun, obviously, but only because it's piss easy to do and virtually impossible to predict for marines.
    The celerity adrenaline debate in vanilla is for another thread so I wont rebuttle to that. I have my reason and will stick to them.

    So basically reading is that celerity is an option for BT but I just havn't gotten good enough at BT fade to use it properly. I can understand that. I am still working at it.

    Still though its just no fun for me, coming from fade being my favorite just because its movement mechanics.
Sign In or Register to comment.