If it really is the case that in b250 marine one-base turtles are:
a) Almost certainly broken by a skilled and coordinated alien team but still somewhat challenging to do quickly and efficiently, and
b) Possibly broken by a mediocre alien team, but maybe not, and
c) Probably not broken by a poor alien team, and
d) If not broken soon enough, then eventually the marines will build up to full tech exo and arc trains and then break free and win,
... then I'd say that the marine turtle endgame is in a GREAT place. Good aliens will win quickly, mediocre aliens will put up a long fight and eventually win, and bad aliens will put up a long fight and eventually lose. Turtling used to be awful because it was a forgone conclusion - the marines were going to lose, it was only a matter of how long it took. But now, if there's actually a possibility for the marines to win if they can just hold out long enough.... well, golly, now there's a REASON to keep fighting!
That's the BEST POSSIBLE solution to the turtling problem! Lose quickly when it's pointless, but keep fighting when there's a chance to win. Hooray!
I absolutely agree with this. I haven't played 250 long enough yet to have a real opinion if this is good or bad. But on the paper it sounds like a good solution to the turtle-problem. (If it isn't to difficult to break the turtle.)
People really have to take into account the res sink for meds, ammo and nano shield. Depending on the capabilities of the comm and the team, the expenditure on supplying your team can easily reach 30-40% of all res used during a round. It's also hard to overestimate the importance of dropping medpacks and ammo. That one marine surviving a 3vs3 battle on the other side of the map thanks to timely medpacks is the best asset any marine commander could hope for. I'm bordering on an aneurysm when the commander tells his marines that he is not going to drop medpacks because they don't have enough extractors. Well you know what champ, you're not going to get those extractors with marines sitting in the spawn queue.
Build orders are easy. Clicking on upgrade icons is easy. Dropping buildings is easy. The most important job of the marine commander, the job that makes or breaks your role, is knowing when to med, where to med, to med fast and relentlessly and to be alert at all times following your groups of marines so you can predict when and where the fight happens and land that first med at the exact same moment the marine takes a bite. Meds are not post-combat damage control, meds are the marine commander's greatest and most fearsome weapon against the aliens.
I really feel like all exo tech should require 2 tech points. Exos just make the ever popular 1 tech point marine alamo even worse. Besides, most marine teams should have at least 2 tech points if they're able to tech to exos in the first place.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I largely feel the marine turtle problem is an issue of the aliens not having an effective siege weapon. The reason we don't see alien turtles is due to ARCs, the 'shoot-through-walls', heavy damage weapons. Aliens will need an equivalent before we see a serious reduction in marine turtling.
My vote is to convert the whip bilebomb into a targeted siege weapon. The Khamm can spend TRes to cause the whip to shoot a mass of bilebombs that can curve around corners to hit their target from a distance. Make the ability require lvl9 biomass and cost something like 5-10TRes per shot should make it balanced for turtle-breaking only.
With exos being cheaper all I have seen it lead to is huge exo trains you can rarely stop. Leading to an inevitable loss.
Exos are cheaper, but also weaker (415 at a3 rather than 560 before). Pretty much the only times I see exo train victories are when the aliens are already losing badly.
An alternative alien siege unit could be an oozer: a large structure that squirts bile ooze up into the ceiling (in a directional manner) that then oozes out of the ceiling up to 1 roomish distance away. Imagine all that dripping bile coming out of the ceiling above your precious structures. It should not be possible to move (or cost a lot to echo), but maybe needs a fire radius slightly larger than the arc (otherwise it'll be hard countered by arcs!).
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Im sure the current turtle problem is going to solved soon automatic, when all the rookies understand the gamemechanic and learn how to play the classes.
3 onos + a umra lerk + 1 fade for vortex and killing marines + 2 bilebombing gorges a drifter for enzyme and the rinebase is toast.
My vote is to convert the whip bilebomb into a targeted siege weapon. The Khamm can spend TRes to cause the whip to shoot a mass of bilebombs that can curve around corners to hit their target from a distance. Make the ability require lvl9 biomass and cost something like 5-10TRes per shot should make it balanced for turtle-breaking only.
The largest part of the problems is aliens have to commit to an attack, which looses lifeforms. Marines subsequently re spawn and pick up their weapon. I have provided some idea's that would only work at level 8/9 biomass (end-game / 3 hives) that allow aliens to whittle down the marine defense / game ending abilities. Another side effect of the flame thrower buff is umbra which was used in NS1 to finish turtles does not work due to flame destroying the umbra cloud.
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade to bilebomb that increases trajectory range of bile bomb
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade that allows a drifter the ability to fastcast infestation instantly in an area so that you can teleport Bile Bomb whips in so they actually work
- Tie Level 3 weapons/armour to 2nd CC
- Vortex on arms lab removes weapon/armour upgrades temporarily for marines. Basically OP but make it biomass level 9 so its only used when the game is basically over
- Bone shield upgrade for onos on 3rd hive tech, turning it into a true siege breaker
These things wouldn't take alot of coding I imagine, would only affect super late game / marine turtles but would ease the pain in public games where people suffer terribly trying to finish games. ATM aliens are locked at hive 2 tech trying to break marine tier 3 tech. Just does not work....
Im sure the current turtle problem is going to solved soon automatic, when all the rookies understand the gamemechanic and learn how to play the classes.
3 onos + a umra lerk + 1 fade for vortex and killing marines + 2 bilebombing gorges a drifter for enzyme and the rinebase is toast.
You're talking about an almost unprecedented amount of teamwork especially in PUBs, plus thats putting all of your Onos in 1 basket, when the beacon comes because you got power out but the obs gets power and 5 marines show up and start reigning havok. Worse would be a base change, you lose all of your upgrades, the marines lose 1 base and just immediately redrop everything. You take 1 tech point lose tech point, and Marines get all their upgrades back and then start marching on your hive.
My vote is to convert the whip bilebomb into a targeted siege weapon. The Khamm can spend TRes to cause the whip to shoot a mass of bilebombs that can curve around corners to hit their target from a distance. Make the ability require lvl9 biomass and cost something like 5-10TRes per shot should make it balanced for turtle-breaking only.
The largest part of the problems is aliens have to commit to an attack, which looses lifeforms. Marines subsequently re spawn and pick up their weapon. I have provided some idea's that would only work at level 8/9 biomass (end-game / 3 hives) that allow aliens to whittle down the marine defense / game ending abilities. Another side effect of the flame thrower buff is umbra which was used in NS1 to finish turtles does not work due to flame destroying the umbra cloud.
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade to bilebomb that increases trajectory range of bile bomb
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade that allows a drifter the ability to fastcast infestation instantly in an area so that you can teleport Bile Bomb whips in so they actually work
- Tie Level 3 weapons/armour to 2nd CC
- Vortex on arms lab removes weapon/armour upgrades temporarily for marines. Basically OP but make it biomass level 9 so its only used when the game is basically over
- Bone shield upgrade for onos on 3rd hive tech, turning it into a true siege breaker
These things wouldn't take alot of coding I imagine, would only affect super late game / marine turtles but would ease the pain in public games where people suffer terribly trying to finish games. ATM aliens are locked at hive 2 tech trying to break marine tier 3 tech. Just does not work....
I think any of those would help, but I still feel like we'd still have marine turtles more often than is desirable. The ease of which marines can recycle weapons adds to the problem, but I don't think its the cause or even a big contributor. Marines are frequently able to sustain turtles even with their basic assault rifles, which suggests to me the issue it elsewhere.
I also find that turtles are typically broken in two ways
- Onos Spam
- Destruction of a critical structure (e.g. arms lab, advanced armory, IP, powernode)
Onos spam works because they have a high enough health to outkill the marines and get them bottled up in the spawn queue. It works, but it typically needs a higher amount of coordination than exists on 99% of public servers.
The second occurs mostly with a suicide rush, typically bilebomb, but occasionally a fade or onos. However, it also usually requires a decent amount of coordination to give the suiciding alien enough time to kill the structure.
The best solution seems to be allowing the comm to be able to do break sieges with little effort needed on the part of the team aka ARC-style.
Somehow players using their abilities wisely in a group to accomplish an objective is now labelled as "unprecedented". Interesting.
The problem is that the marines basically get their side of the "work in a group" aspect for free because they all spawn in the same place the aliens want to attack and shooting at onos/gorges trying to kill the power node is fun.
I think the best suggestions so far are putting A3/W3 on 2 CCs and giving a >6 biomass upgrade for bile bomb or making upgraded whips into more of an arc analogue.
There was an actual nuke for marines in very early build in NS1 to end game. However, there was gameplay nuke for aliens after that joke build. That was 3rd hive. It´s true that aliens needs the ultimate game ending tech, not marines. It was also intersting gameplay wise, because no matter what, as marine you couldn´t give aliens that 3rd hive.
Its on the commander/khammander to use them! I saw alien-comms who nicely support the team with smart and frequently use of drifters and bonewalls/rupture (even mist is nice to blur marine-sight). And marine-comms who dont or marginally support the marines with meds/ammo. Its changing every round and depends only on the comm/khamm
Im sure the current turtle problem is going to solved soon automatic, when all the rookies understand the gamemechanic and learn how to play the classes.
3 onos + a umra lerk + 1 fade for vortex and killing marines + 2 bilebombing gorges a drifter for enzyme and the rinebase is toast.
You're talking about an almost unprecedented amount of teamwork especially in PUBs, plus thats putting all of your Onos in 1 basket, when the beacon comes because you got power out but the obs gets power and 5 marines show up and start reigning havok. Worse would be a base change, you lose all of your upgrades, the marines lose 1 base and just immediately redrop everything. You take 1 tech point lose tech point, and Marines get all their upgrades back and then start marching on your hive.
Don't go after the power node. Especially with Power Surge, and even before, power nodes are the noob trap of turtle breaking. Just go after the CC or the marines themselves and then the infantry portals. None of this should matter, however, since there is nothing the marines can do if you just spam enough oni with a few supportive gorges. You don't need all the abilities of all the lifeforms (though that certainly makes it easier) or an "unprecedented amount of teamwork". Just have 2 gorges and everyone else going onos, and no matter what you attack, the marines won't be able to stop you. The problem is, public players cannot refrain from trying to get a few frags during the downtime while the alien team is waiting for more oni, and thus every few minutes one onos goes down. It's hilarious really when you're on the marine side of the turtle, and a single onos tries to march into your base full of W3A3 marines and end the game heroicly by itself. Time and time again. Every now and then they group up and come in with maybe 2 or 3 aliens, and time and time again they die. And every dead onos means more time waiting for that final rush, and every minute waiting means a few rambo oni getting themselves killed again, and so on. I've never seen aliens rushing with the entire team with more than 2 oni and failing. Because it cannot fail. And if "everybody rush at the same time" is "unprecedented", then all I can do is tell the aliens to l2p.
Medpacks and ammo drops are used infinitely more than any of the alien abilities. A marine commander who doesn't use them is a bad commander.
A marine commander who use them to much is also a bad commander. Who have not seen tons of wastet ammo/medrops because the situation is decided anyways? To pump meds/shield into a lmg-marine who is atacked by fade, lerk and a skulk is just stupid.
Same to marineplayers. Sometimes its better, for the team, to die instead of begging the comm for meds.
In most situations its the way better deal to place an armory instead of ammo/med-drops. Aliens have also to put the crag/shift-stuff to any hotspot. I still see comms who put 10+ res out for meds in the same area.
Medpacks and ammo drops are used infinitely more than any of the alien abilities. A marine commander who doesn't use them is a bad commander.
A marine commander who use them to much is also a bad commander. Who have not seen tons of wastet ammo/medrops because the situation is decided anyways? To pump meds/shield into a lmg-marine who is atacked by fade, lerk and a skulk is just stupid.
Same to marineplayers. Sometimes its better, for the team, to die instead of begging the comm for meds.
In most situations its the way better deal to place an armory instead of ammo/med-drops. Aliens have also to put the crag/shift-stuff to any hotspot. I still see comms who put 10+ res out for meds in the same area.
Depends. If that marine takes down the fade with a couple of well-placed shotgun shots, then I'd say it was WELL WORTH medding him. Similarly if he takes down the lerk (and it's still not really late game) then that was probably worth doing.
If you don't med him, he's much less likely to take down the life-forms. Remember that taking out a fade either stops that player being fade again for quite a long time, or costs the alien team an additional 70 res to give him another fade from tres. That's not to be sniffed at.
Of course there are situations where the commander shouldn't med. Doesn't change the fact that marines use multiple times more res on supply than aliens. I hope ns2stats tracked meds, ammo, enzyme, bone wall, nano etc. used.
What about ranged spores and acid rockets? Worked fine in ns1, expecially when the armory went down Shooting back is way more fun than playing a melee meat shield onos and the chance that a fade/lerk will die is lowered = you don't have to wait for a situation where three onos meet up in a pub game. It is intuitive and you don't even have to coordinate it, it will just happen and the rines are forced to heal up = less fire at the attackers = rushes are more effective. But wait...it was decided a long time ago that getting shot by alien stuff is no fun and getting shot by rine stuff is fun...just forget that I mentioned it :P
edit: Xeno would also be effective again when all the little rines are constantly under fire...
Of course there are situations where the commander shouldn't med. Doesn't change the fact that marines use multiple times more res on supply than aliens. I hope ns2stats tracked meds, ammo, enzyme, bone wall, nano etc. used.
I'll give my 2 cents on medpacks - res usage as I comm marines quite a bit.
1) medpacks are used quite a bit in games on GOOD marines. i.e. I will not drop medpacks on the guy who is going to die anyway. 1-2 meds per good solder (health level dependent) during tough engagements does not tax me that much. It hurts, and will slow me down a bit, but it's my job to weigh the risk / reward. (A good example of this, if a solder has invested in a shotgun, FT etc. I will invest back to save him. If they are taking out upgrades, an extractor etc, I will save them. The guy late game running by himself with only a rifle.... not so much).
2) Nanoshield is now also used extensively on the EXO's (god forbid any marines buy the 3 res welder to weld an exo). Therefore I try to nano the Exo's just long enough to stay alive on pushes. Given the delay timer on this, it does not consume a tremendous amount of res.
3) Any push on a hive, I drop a tremendous amount of meds + ammo to help the team both continue to shoot the hive, and stay alive to protect the exo's / arcs (this is where I will spam meds / ammo around the Exo's and around the hive). This costs quite a bit of res, however it is worth it, and only occurs late game (usually) so we have the res to spare.
I would not say a good commander uses an excessive amount of res on either of those, but they do quickly add up. I would also agree with a previous poster, any commander that does not give his team meds is a bad commander. They are essential to winning early engagements and helping a small team push forward (these are usually your good players).
Bad marines drop meds incessantly wasting res, instead of dropping 1 or 2 right on the marine, they drop 10 all around the ground during a small engagement. This does not mean that the system is broken, but rather the commander is not very good.
(They need a way for commanders to be able to MUTE the guy asking for meds, as to many times new players ask when they are right near an armory).
imho,
I think it's obvious after several days playing and comming that rines commanding role has been over-simplified, late game rine tech is over-powered compared to aliens, flamers especially are at a ridiculous state, and there's gotta be something that can be done about 3 - 4 hive alien teams w/ obvious map and rt control gettin rolled in about 5 minutes w/ one swift exo/flamer push.
I understand that in pubs, aliens need to coordinate better, but it just seems like aliens have an obvious rebuilding disadvantage. Consider the time it takes to rebuild an arms lab, compared to 3 spurs/veils/shells; or CC build time and cost compared to alien hive build time/cost, etc. Not to mention once arms lab is back up, all upgrades return immediately. I think this kind of echos the OP.
Also, rines can rush jp/flamers in pretty little time, aliens cant really rush anything build-wise early to combat this effectively. Just some frustrating things, at least, that i've experienced a lot so far.
Ultimately I am really enjoying the new build. Adjusted to new comm flow and alien movement, and games have been more dynamic and longer lasting. But these late game turts and sweeps are kind of stupid and very aggravating when your team has been dominating all game.
I think Aliens are at a great state, rines are just a little over-buffed. Lower shotty dmg or rate, flamer dmg or magazine, and maybe increase some rine build times to counter slow alien hive/tech tree.
Comments
I absolutely agree with this. I haven't played 250 long enough yet to have a real opinion if this is good or bad. But on the paper it sounds like a good solution to the turtle-problem. (If it isn't to difficult to break the turtle.)
Build orders are easy. Clicking on upgrade icons is easy. Dropping buildings is easy. The most important job of the marine commander, the job that makes or breaks your role, is knowing when to med, where to med, to med fast and relentlessly and to be alert at all times following your groups of marines so you can predict when and where the fight happens and land that first med at the exact same moment the marine takes a bite. Meds are not post-combat damage control, meds are the marine commander's greatest and most fearsome weapon against the aliens.
My vote is to convert the whip bilebomb into a targeted siege weapon. The Khamm can spend TRes to cause the whip to shoot a mass of bilebombs that can curve around corners to hit their target from a distance. Make the ability require lvl9 biomass and cost something like 5-10TRes per shot should make it balanced for turtle-breaking only.
Exos are cheaper, but also weaker (415 at a3 rather than 560 before). Pretty much the only times I see exo train victories are when the aliens are already losing badly.
Also, aliens on pubs are horrible at working together to break turtles. Problem exists between chair and keyboard.
3 onos + a umra lerk + 1 fade for vortex and killing marines + 2 bilebombing gorges a drifter for enzyme and the rinebase is toast.
100% truth. All the tools are there just too few aliens care to use them or at least use them properly.
The largest part of the problems is aliens have to commit to an attack, which looses lifeforms. Marines subsequently re spawn and pick up their weapon. I have provided some idea's that would only work at level 8/9 biomass (end-game / 3 hives) that allow aliens to whittle down the marine defense / game ending abilities. Another side effect of the flame thrower buff is umbra which was used in NS1 to finish turtles does not work due to flame destroying the umbra cloud.
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade to bilebomb that increases trajectory range of bile bomb
- A level 8/9 biomass upgrade that allows a drifter the ability to fastcast infestation instantly in an area so that you can teleport Bile Bomb whips in so they actually work
- Tie Level 3 weapons/armour to 2nd CC
- Vortex on arms lab removes weapon/armour upgrades temporarily for marines. Basically OP but make it biomass level 9 so its only used when the game is basically over
- Bone shield upgrade for onos on 3rd hive tech, turning it into a true siege breaker
These things wouldn't take alot of coding I imagine, would only affect super late game / marine turtles but would ease the pain in public games where people suffer terribly trying to finish games. ATM aliens are locked at hive 2 tech trying to break marine tier 3 tech. Just does not work....
You're talking about an almost unprecedented amount of teamwork especially in PUBs, plus thats putting all of your Onos in 1 basket, when the beacon comes because you got power out but the obs gets power and 5 marines show up and start reigning havok. Worse would be a base change, you lose all of your upgrades, the marines lose 1 base and just immediately redrop everything. You take 1 tech point lose tech point, and Marines get all their upgrades back and then start marching on your hive.
I also find that turtles are typically broken in two ways
- Onos Spam
- Destruction of a critical structure (e.g. arms lab, advanced armory, IP, powernode)
Onos spam works because they have a high enough health to outkill the marines and get them bottled up in the spawn queue. It works, but it typically needs a higher amount of coordination than exists on 99% of public servers.
The second occurs mostly with a suicide rush, typically bilebomb, but occasionally a fade or onos. However, it also usually requires a decent amount of coordination to give the suiciding alien enough time to kill the structure.
The best solution seems to be allowing the comm to be able to do break sieges with little effort needed on the part of the team aka ARC-style.
The problem is that the marines basically get their side of the "work in a group" aspect for free because they all spawn in the same place the aliens want to attack and shooting at onos/gorges trying to kill the power node is fun.
I think the best suggestions so far are putting A3/W3 on 2 CCs and giving a >6 biomass upgrade for bile bomb or making upgraded whips into more of an arc analogue.
so marines never get them
Active supportabillitys:
rines :
medpacks 1 res
ammopack 1
scan 3
power surge 5
nano-shield 5
Aliens:
mist 1 res
rupture 2
bone wall 3
echo 1-2
ink 3
healwave 3
Enzyme cloud 2
Storm 1
Membrane 1
Hallucination 1
hatch 5
Its on the commander/khammander to use them! I saw alien-comms who nicely support the team with smart and frequently use of drifters and bonewalls/rupture (even mist is nice to blur marine-sight). And marine-comms who dont or marginally support the marines with meds/ammo. Its changing every round and depends only on the comm/khamm
Don't go after the power node. Especially with Power Surge, and even before, power nodes are the noob trap of turtle breaking. Just go after the CC or the marines themselves and then the infantry portals. None of this should matter, however, since there is nothing the marines can do if you just spam enough oni with a few supportive gorges. You don't need all the abilities of all the lifeforms (though that certainly makes it easier) or an "unprecedented amount of teamwork". Just have 2 gorges and everyone else going onos, and no matter what you attack, the marines won't be able to stop you. The problem is, public players cannot refrain from trying to get a few frags during the downtime while the alien team is waiting for more oni, and thus every few minutes one onos goes down. It's hilarious really when you're on the marine side of the turtle, and a single onos tries to march into your base full of W3A3 marines and end the game heroicly by itself. Time and time again. Every now and then they group up and come in with maybe 2 or 3 aliens, and time and time again they die. And every dead onos means more time waiting for that final rush, and every minute waiting means a few rambo oni getting themselves killed again, and so on. I've never seen aliens rushing with the entire team with more than 2 oni and failing. Because it cannot fail. And if "everybody rush at the same time" is "unprecedented", then all I can do is tell the aliens to l2p.
@Mr.Greedy
Medpacks and ammo drops are used infinitely more than any of the alien abilities. A marine commander who doesn't use them is a bad commander.
A marine commander who use them to much is also a bad commander. Who have not seen tons of wastet ammo/medrops because the situation is decided anyways? To pump meds/shield into a lmg-marine who is atacked by fade, lerk and a skulk is just stupid.
Same to marineplayers. Sometimes its better, for the team, to die instead of begging the comm for meds.
In most situations its the way better deal to place an armory instead of ammo/med-drops. Aliens have also to put the crag/shift-stuff to any hotspot. I still see comms who put 10+ res out for meds in the same area.
Depends. If that marine takes down the fade with a couple of well-placed shotgun shots, then I'd say it was WELL WORTH medding him. Similarly if he takes down the lerk (and it's still not really late game) then that was probably worth doing.
If you don't med him, he's much less likely to take down the life-forms. Remember that taking out a fade either stops that player being fade again for quite a long time, or costs the alien team an additional 70 res to give him another fade from tres. That's not to be sniffed at.
edit: Xeno would also be effective again when all the little rines are constantly under fire...
I'll give my 2 cents on medpacks - res usage as I comm marines quite a bit.
1) medpacks are used quite a bit in games on GOOD marines. i.e. I will not drop medpacks on the guy who is going to die anyway. 1-2 meds per good solder (health level dependent) during tough engagements does not tax me that much. It hurts, and will slow me down a bit, but it's my job to weigh the risk / reward. (A good example of this, if a solder has invested in a shotgun, FT etc. I will invest back to save him. If they are taking out upgrades, an extractor etc, I will save them. The guy late game running by himself with only a rifle.... not so much).
2) Nanoshield is now also used extensively on the EXO's (god forbid any marines buy the 3 res welder to weld an exo). Therefore I try to nano the Exo's just long enough to stay alive on pushes. Given the delay timer on this, it does not consume a tremendous amount of res.
3) Any push on a hive, I drop a tremendous amount of meds + ammo to help the team both continue to shoot the hive, and stay alive to protect the exo's / arcs (this is where I will spam meds / ammo around the Exo's and around the hive). This costs quite a bit of res, however it is worth it, and only occurs late game (usually) so we have the res to spare.
I would not say a good commander uses an excessive amount of res on either of those, but they do quickly add up. I would also agree with a previous poster, any commander that does not give his team meds is a bad commander. They are essential to winning early engagements and helping a small team push forward (these are usually your good players).
Bad marines drop meds incessantly wasting res, instead of dropping 1 or 2 right on the marine, they drop 10 all around the ground during a small engagement. This does not mean that the system is broken, but rather the commander is not very good.
(They need a way for commanders to be able to MUTE the guy asking for meds, as to many times new players ask when they are right near an armory).
My biggest gripe with this game. Just because DOTA players want to play 1 round for an hour, does not mean us FPS'rs do.
I think it's obvious after several days playing and comming that rines commanding role has been over-simplified, late game rine tech is over-powered compared to aliens, flamers especially are at a ridiculous state, and there's gotta be something that can be done about 3 - 4 hive alien teams w/ obvious map and rt control gettin rolled in about 5 minutes w/ one swift exo/flamer push.
I understand that in pubs, aliens need to coordinate better, but it just seems like aliens have an obvious rebuilding disadvantage. Consider the time it takes to rebuild an arms lab, compared to 3 spurs/veils/shells; or CC build time and cost compared to alien hive build time/cost, etc. Not to mention once arms lab is back up, all upgrades return immediately. I think this kind of echos the OP.
Also, rines can rush jp/flamers in pretty little time, aliens cant really rush anything build-wise early to combat this effectively. Just some frustrating things, at least, that i've experienced a lot so far.
Ultimately I am really enjoying the new build. Adjusted to new comm flow and alien movement, and games have been more dynamic and longer lasting. But these late game turts and sweeps are kind of stupid and very aggravating when your team has been dominating all game.
I think Aliens are at a great state, rines are just a little over-buffed. Lower shotty dmg or rate, flamer dmg or magazine, and maybe increase some rine build times to counter slow alien hive/tech tree.