ns2_grendel
ObliviousSight
Join Date: 2012-09-07 Member: 158306Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-09-07 Member: 158306Members, Reinforced - Shadow
in Mapping
Well, I've finally managed to actually release a map. In super, duper exciting greybox format!
The map has fixed spawns for both teams, with Marines in Sub-Net Systems and Aliens in Desalination.
Currently there are no vents in the map. I have an idea of where I want to place them, but would like to test the map a few times without them. Hopefully this will help with making the balancing process for the map ever so slightly shorter.
The map is currently on the Spark Crafter Collective UK server, so jump on if you fancy a look.
I'll be putting the timings of the map up sometime in the future as well.
I look forward to everybody's thoughts and feedback.
The map has fixed spawns for both teams, with Marines in Sub-Net Systems and Aliens in Desalination.
Currently there are no vents in the map. I have an idea of where I want to place them, but would like to test the map a few times without them. Hopefully this will help with making the balancing process for the map ever so slightly shorter.
The map is currently on the Spark Crafter Collective UK server, so jump on if you fancy a look.
I'll be putting the timings of the map up sometime in the future as well.
I look forward to everybody's thoughts and feedback.
Comments
There are a few places that i will be revisiting in the couple of weeks or so just to bring it in line with what I want, with that link being one of the first areas to work on. Everything in the map is subject to change based on the feedback I get from people.
You wound me! Even more than the forklift did! I would shake my cane angrily, but I only got my first wheelchair ride today.
I'll get you next time, Oblivious!
Honestly, between us getting used to b250 and the massive influx of new players you really aren't missing anything
Nice to hear you have wheels now though!
*Puts on sunglasses*
Caged.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!
Only issue is the size of the marine start and the times out of it. Other than that its a looking very promising!
Good show, old chap
Thanks for recording the game Daan, nice to see that match from the alien perspective.
We tried to push in three different places, basically locking marines out anywhere we could and i think it only worked because of the amazing teamwork it a big map so i had my team running all around it.
Over all needs more game time, we've talked about some of the issues i thought might be there before. So let's just get more games on it.
I see that the upper TP is better, but I'd still like to see more random spawns. Either all 3 outer TPs random, or random spawns between Sub and Desalination only (so at least teams aren't always on the same side). Not sure if that works with the layout though.
A working asymmetric map (like this) with random spawns would be great.
Looking forward to test this.
I personally don't want to see random spawns, other than adding a dice-roll element to games they really on detract from the level design. When you make it so either team can spawn at any Tech point Balancing issues and considerations balloon and everything has to be evenly spread so you basically end up with the classic wagon wheel map.
When people listen Troop delivers!
WARNING! Rather large post to follow.
@hozz When I first planned the map it was with completely random spawns in mind, but since then I have changed my mind for a few reasons:
- The conditions that both teams need from a spawn location are really very different. Marines need clear lines of sight and room to build base structures without completely cluttering the location, and Aliens want cover and opportunities to outflank and ambush marines pushing on a Hive or setting up a forward assault position. These are hard to make compatible and balance correctly. If you throw in some vents for Hive defence as well, which in themselves aren't the easiest thing to balance, you have something of a headache. Seeing as this is my first published map and my first attempt at something for NS2, I thought I'd save myself the hair loss by having exclusive spawns for each team.
- Another reason is close spawns. This is something I, personally, don't enjoy in maps. Now I could fix that by stretching the times between the techpoint locations, so it takes longer to get from one techpoint to the other, but that works against me trying to create a smaller, tighter focused map. I placed two resource points between the two current spawns to act as buffers, slowing both teams expansion immediately towards each other. I could put other resource points in between the bottom techpoints and the top tech point, but that would give me a map with 4 techpoints and 11 resource points, which I feel is really too much for the size of map, and the style of gameplay I want. If I was to just fix the marine spawn, allowing aliens to spawn at either Desalination or Atmospherics and place another resource point between Atmospherics and Sub-Net to act like a buffer as I have at the bottom of the map, that would mean that marines can easily expand and take an extra resource point without too much hassle early on in the game.
- Thirdly, like Howser says, I find that random spawns often bring out more balance issues in general. It gives you less room to play with in the rest of the map, because each spawn, and it's surrounding territory, has to be equally viable for both teams. This tends to have the effect of slowly shifting the map towards the nefarious 'wagon wheel' or similar design. Now this may not always be true, but it is certainly something that I would have to work around and be aware of. Ultimately, I prefer to have more control over the rest of the map, by having clearly defined areas of 'natural' marine and alien territory, separated by a 'neutral' zone. It will give me more latitude in the design of each area, which will hopefully mean I can introduce variety through interesting choices in expansion rather than variety through where teams spawn.
I hope you don't mind me breaking down my reasoning like this, I wanted to show that I have considered your suggestion carefully since you took the time to actually give feedback in the first place. It also helps me explore my reasons for making the choices that I have so far with the map. I will always try and listen to feedback and suggestions for the map, even if I can't guarentee I will take the advice on offer. This goes for everybody, whether you're a mapper, comp or pub player.
So, without further ado I thought I'd post an update on the current state of the map and my plans to fix some of the issues that have cropped up from the playtests.
One of the things I'm trying to achieve is to have the map present you with a choice. Do you choose to take the central location and have more access to the map in general, or do you take the top tech point and have an economic advantage with the safer rez node nearby? Whether this will actually work in practice or that I'm going about it the right way has yet to be revealed though...
I also want the map to be slightly smaller in size than some of the official maps for the game. Something in the region of tram's size probably. So with that in mind I walked the times of grendel.
Now, the average times tram has between locations is about 13-15 seconds. Looking at grendel I'm off by quite a margin! I did create a very basic floor plan with correct times that I then built on top of, but I failed to consider that you don't actually move through a level in a straight line. So lesson learned, next time (I hope there is a next time) I shall shave two or three seconds off of the plan distances to help keep it closer to what I actually want. So I will be cutting out sections of the map and moving others, to to get the times around the outside down to about 14-15 seconds. I figure that if I take care of those and try and keep the central areas generally in about the same place, that will be a solid starting point for tweaking the level flow more, further down the line.
For a more indepth look at what else I will be changing I drew this image up.
A. This room is generally too small to be a good marine start position and both entrances can be covered easily by marines standing at the CC, leading to nasty turtles. The tight corridors just outside also exacerbate the situation by funneling aliens directly into gl and flamer spam. I'll be enlarging the room to encompass those corridors and move it more to the east to help cut the distances marines have to travel to their nearest expansions.
B. A slightly odd room here. Too large, as it is about the same size as Sub-Net and about as open. It's a solid place for aliens to pressure Sub-Net from though, so the changes here won't be too drastic, some reorientation and resizing mostly. Not sure whether I should make it a location or have it as either part of Sub-Net or Heat Exchange. Leaning a bit more towards Heat Exchange right now, but am open to suggestions on this one.
C. This section is too long and too winding. That double 'U' shape isn't nice to navigate as a player, it feels artificial and forced. There is also very little room in those corridors for aliens to be able to place a forward heal base when trying to finish off the marines. The room with the actual resource node in is also kind of boring gameplay wise, basically consisting of a raised box. Complete rework is what is needed.
D. Nano-Fluid Transit is too similar to Heat Exchange for my tastes. I've also been told that it is slightly confusing to navigate with the alcove on the opposite side from the ramp. Going to close that section off and enlarge the raised area over it.
E. Heavily marine favoured with too many long lines of sight and little cover for aliens. Fairly large rework, probably incorporating the room just above it.
F. The most uninteresting space in the entire level. At least to my mind. Really flat, no real visibility blockers, awkward corridors that disrupt the flow of the map and bad entity placement. In short, something that only made it in because I was stuck at the time! Without question going to be removed and something new put in it's place.
G. Mostly just going to be moving Carbon Scrubbing more to the north-west and try to make it less square. I don't think I've seen any fighting here yet, mostly because marines can't survive long enough to reach the room!
H. Integrity Modelling is slight too close to Desalination and is too open for an alien expansion. Also has a horrible view distance issue that really needs to be resolved.
I. Not fond of the loop in the route here. Doesn't feel like it belongs there to me. Also don't like the dual ramps seperated by a wall in Reclaimation, it really disrupts flow and lengthens some of the times unnaturally. Not quite sure of the solution here yet, going to be mulling it over for a bit.
J. This area has revealed that at least of my preconceptions going into mapping for ns2 are wrong. As a general rule of thumb I thought that the more 'loops' a level has in it, the more it favours aliens, allowing them to outflank and out maneuver marines more easily. Same sort of thing applied at the smaller scale of rooms made a room more alien favoured. So I thought that adding in the 'double flight' ramp at the west of the room would add more options for aliens. After all, Sensory Node is a natural expansion for aliens that is likely going to be under early, and fairly constant, pressure from marines. But, that ramp allowed marines to completely bypass most of the alien favoured territory in the room and start attacking a harvester there, all the while with very good lines of sight on all avenues of attack. In other words, a big mistake on my part. So going to be removing that ramp section completely and reducing the lines of sight up there as well.
Well, that turned out longer than I anticipated. Sorry about that.
I hope to get all this done in the next week or two. Until then I don't think it is really worth having the level being played as it is so heavily alien favoured right now that marines can barely make it half way across the map. Nothing useful can be gathered from that kind of situation.
With regards to point J i have to say I've found same thing. The effect seems to be amplified When marines are assaulting an alien area as they can often alternate entrances to snipe the structures, reducing the effectiveness of whips, clogs etc. Smaller loops seem to favor aliens in neutral areas, rooms used for navigation and areas leading into marine territory.
Looking forward to seeing these changes THIS SUNDAY!
Still, a highly asymmetric map WITH [partially] random spawns (so games can be totally different depending on start location) would be nice, if it even can be done properly. Maybe your next one
I can't say much about the map as the one game we played, Marines had a bad Comm (hardcore refused to get PG) and that was about it.
I think your shortening the routes fixes the problem which would have been dependence on PG.
Over the last few months I have tried and failed to get the map into a playable state and have determined that I don't have the capabilities to do so. I'm handing the map over to Flaterectomy who has already exceeded what I could have achieved. Flaterectomy is now to receive full credit as the author of ns2_grendel.
Flatectomy gets full credit for what? STEALING YOUR GOOD IDEAS?! I know his game!
What you should do is step back from the editor and mapping ; do write up of the project, what you want from it, ideas, individual room designs etc. Basically anything you've accumulated getting to this point. Also find references and use this thread to share and discuss! If we spread the mapping out and get it to a basic fun playable state you can iterate from then hand it back once you feel comfortable to go forward?! Knowing flat, that's probably what he intends to do unless he really is stealing all your good ideas... the bastard!
The first build of Grendel was a lot better than you gave yourself credit for and I believe a few small changes could of fixed a lot of the big issues it had! And to be frank it was a lot better than the vast majority of first builds we've come across. Apart from chasm
Back on the horse mate!