FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Frankly, there was a time right before 250 in the balance mod where marines had an advantage over aliens, significantly. (In competitive play, that is) It's unfortunate that the shotgun was nerfed and the AA items were buffed because it skews the wins from marines. I've always felt that marines should be winning unless the aliens can coordinate properly, at which time they become exponentially stronger, whereas marines need to fan out and just block lanes.
But with shotguns the way they are right now, that alien win rate is going to stay high.
Hello, first time poster here, but I've been playing NS since the very first days of NS1. Just posting to agree that it's really only a matter of time before the aliens start winning majority of the pub games again. People seem to underestimate the strategic advantage that extreme mobility gives skulks early on, and no, teamwork is not always the answer because that is a game that both sides can play. In fact, that's happening at the usual servers that I play at now. Most games as marines are a survival match where the challenge is to see how far up the tech tree we can go or how long we can hold out before we get completely screwed and the commander has to recycle the IPs to get on with the next match. In some games, the aliens can simply fool around in the early game and do multiple failed gorge rushes and still come back to win. I doubt it's a matter of player skill either since the players are randomized practically all the time. For that matter, it seems like most players I run into know what they're doing. It's quite rare to have a genuine rookie these days (I usually identify them by the way they play the skulk, i.e. running on the ground.)
I think it's more down to aliens benefit massively to very coordinated teamplay, something you'll see in comp but not that often in pub games (and I don't just mean aliens moving in a group)
I see marines easily coming in and just retaking things from aliens over and over. More over I see a lot of times marines just leave one exo in base to guard while the rest go push whatever, and it works retardedly well. Aliens however can't just leave one onos in the hive and win because onos doesn't have any ranged and marines can just shoot and run or stay in a hallway. And since the onos doesn't take much damage anymore or really do a whole lot it's pretty much useless. I mean the counter to Onos now is pretty much anything where as it used to be a Jetpack. The counter to an exo is.... Bile, kind of? So basically your slowest lifeform with very little health and armor and a fairly large profile has to try and get close enough to bile bomb an exo. It's just not quite right IMO.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I think part of the problem is SO much stuff was changed at once it's hard to tell what actually should be fixed. If there is no "control" how do you know what works and what doesn't. We could sit here for days going back and forth on what we think should be done, but there just so many things.
Onos does need a health increase though gore range could use a very slight extension again,. Exos could definitely use a nerf, maybe 20 damage per bullet.
I'm now pretty convinced that it's aliens who have the advantage, in spite of the onos. The onos needs some love, for sure, but the marines are losing the majority of games in competitive play. It won't be too much longer before people in pubs get used to the aliens and we see a higher percentage of alien wins. But I agree with the OP's thread title: there is an onos in the room and everyone seems to be avoiding discussing it
Aliens have always been stronger in competitive play than in public play. If we were to reach a 50-50 ratio in competitive play marines would completely overrun public servers. Interestingly, though, marines actually won more than aliens (4-3) in the Godar-Saunamen semifinals.
However, I do think that we need to change the way tiebreakers are dealt with. If aliens are winning as often as they are a team should be required to win by 2 rounds.
I'm now pretty convinced that it's aliens who have the advantage, in spite of the onos. The onos needs some love, for sure, but the marines are losing the majority of games in competitive play. It won't be too much longer before people in pubs get used to the aliens and we see a higher percentage of alien wins. But I agree with the OP's thread title: there is an onos in the room and everyone seems to be avoiding discussing it
Aliens have always been stronger in competitive play than in public play. If we were to reach a 50-50 ratio in competitive play marines would completely overrun public servers. Interestingly, though, marines actually won more than aliens (4-3) in the Godar-Saunamen semifinals.
However, I do think that we need to change the way tiebreakers are dealt with. If aliens are winning as often as they are a team should be required to win by 2 rounds.
The problem is that movement and melee coordination is far far easier to learn and play with than tracking + twitch aiming because the movement of a different player can be unpredictable.
If you are extremely good at tracking + twitch aiming then aliens will be fearing a lot more and losing a lot more like you said.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
Teams are not utilising this well enough, whether it be an issue of pres management, the capability of getting a 2nd CC, unaware of this idea or unable to get the 2nd CC.
I think people just aren't willing to set aside 1 marine to get dual exos, or dual exos aren't coming out quick enough. I don't know if this is a problem because they NEED to buy shotguns or if they just don't consider saving.
I think it's possible that most competitive games can reach the dual exo requirements (Pres, tres, 2nd CC map control).
Players are not playing to use the features available to them to win the game. People are obsessed with sticking to "tried and tested" methods. Competitive players are stuck to the classic SG/JP just as badly as public are to PG, OBS, CC, Armory, IP in every tech point.
Fade balls are more deadly now imo and especially with people actually using umbra now. It's time for comp players to use dual exos.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Only a 500lb onos, should be 500kg (that's about 1000lbs).
Seriously though, agreed with most of the posts here. Onos is weak as now. It is possible to get killed by a single 1 minigun exo walking backwards, being nanoshielded and welded by 1 marine (this happened to me). So, solution, Make the onos tougher (more hp and armor for cara), and weaken the Exos slightly. One exo can hold the marine start for turtles for a long time if the Alien team isn't coordinated enough. I know you will say, well get coordinated. I only play on pubs, and I think the priority for UWE is to make pubs fun so people stick around.
Only a 500lb onos, should be 500kg (that's about 1000lbs).
Seriously though, agreed with most of the posts here. Onos is weak as now. It is possible to get killed by a single 1 minigun exo walking backwards, being nanoshielded and welded by 1 marine (this happened to me). So, solution, Make the onos tougher (more hp and armor for cara), and weaken the Exos slightly. One exo can hold the marine start for turtles for a long time if the Alien team isn't coordinated enough. I know you will say, well get coordinated. I only play on pubs, and I think the priority for UWE is to make pubs fun so people stick around.
The onos being too weak is independent of exos. the main fear an onos should have is a pack of 2 or 3 jp marines, or 3 or more light marines. exos already got a massive hp nerf, and can go down absurdly quickly if not supported very carefully.
I think the onos needs a moderate armour boost, to help counter light and normal damage types a little better at the beginning of engagements. Exos are fine as they are for now tbh.
Only a 500lb onos, should be 500kg (that's about 1000lbs).
Seriously though, agreed with most of the posts here. Onos is weak as now. It is possible to get killed by a single 1 minigun exo walking backwards, being nanoshielded and welded by 1 marine (this happened to me). So, solution, Make the onos tougher (more hp and armor for cara), and weaken the Exos slightly. One exo can hold the marine start for turtles for a long time if the Alien team isn't coordinated enough. I know you will say, well get coordinated. I only play on pubs, and I think the priority for UWE is to make pubs fun so people stick around.
The onos being too weak is independent of exos. the main fear an onos should have is a pack of 2 or 3 jp marines, or 3 or more light marines. exos already got a massive hp nerf, and can go down absurdly quickly if not supported very carefully.
I think the onos needs a moderate armour boost, to help counter light and normal damage types a little better at the beginning of engagements. Exos are fine as they are for now tbh.
Yes, I see your point. Exos are not the great fearsome machines that they once were, being only 480 armor when maxed out on upgrades. Though I still think they go too fast walking backwards. The current onos needs just a slight boost to health so its not so weak, it doesn't have to be like the B249 days where 4 marines with W3 lmgs just can't kill an Onos.
Onos is absolutely under armored now. And I don't mean the fancy line of sports clothing. Even a SINGLE mini exo has a very good chance of taking down a full upgraded onos! 2 jetpackers can EASILY destroy an onos. I was even once killed by some sentry turrets and 2 guys with level 2 weapons & LMGs. They danced around the turrets and even though I killed them rather quick, I was brought down to very low health and when I tried to escape one more guy finished me off with another single LMG mag. I was missing a couple hundred armor from a previous engagement but still, an onos with 1100 hp and 200 armor should have NO problem taking 3-4 LMG mags and a few sentry shots.. its really bad now considering its the most expensive unit in the game but 3 marines with a mild tactical advantage can take one down no problem.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
I don't think the aim thing is a case of L2P for most people, it's something you can either do or will never learn. Certainly I know folks who have played games like CS and quake 3 for years and are have plateaued when it comes to aim skills. certainly not the level required for NS2. I think the trouble for really good skulk players is there's not a lot the can do to mitigate godly aim apart from be in a group and that just ends with wars of attrition, which is a god damn dumb tactic to require.
I'm now pretty convinced that it's aliens who have the advantage, in spite of the onos. The onos needs some love, for sure, but the marines are losing the majority of games in competitive play. It won't be too much longer before people in pubs get used to the aliens and we see a higher percentage of alien wins. But I agree with the OP's thread title: there is an onos in the room and everyone seems to be avoiding discussing it
Aliens have always been stronger in competitive play than in public play. If we were to reach a 50-50 ratio in competitive play marines would completely overrun public servers. Interestingly, though, marines actually won more than aliens (4-3) in the Godar-Saunamen semifinals.
However, I do think that we need to change the way tiebreakers are dealt with. If aliens are winning as often as they are a team should be required to win by 2 rounds.
The problem is that movement and melee coordination is far far easier to learn and play with than tracking + twitch aiming because the movement of a different player can be unpredictable.
If you are extremely good at tracking + twitch aiming then aliens will be fearing a lot more and losing a lot more like you said.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
Teams are not utilising this well enough, whether it be an issue of pres management, the capability of getting a 2nd CC, unaware of this idea or unable to get the 2nd CC.
I think people just aren't willing to set aside 1 marine to get dual exos, or dual exos aren't coming out quick enough. I don't know if this is a problem because they NEED to buy shotguns or if they just don't consider saving.
I think it's possible that most competitive games can reach the dual exo requirements (Pres, tres, 2nd CC map control).
Players are not playing to use the features available to them to win the game. People are obsessed with sticking to "tried and tested" methods. Competitive players are stuck to the classic SG/JP just as badly as public are to PG, OBS, CC, Armory, IP in every tech point.
Fade balls are more deadly now imo and especially with people actually using umbra now. It's time for comp players to use dual exos.
Just two points here. Jetpack shotguns are fun. Phase gates aren't usually fun.
We get it. It's obvious that marines are currently favored in the late game of NS2 at the moment. Just enjoy it for now. Challenge yourself to get better as alien and try to beat it.
Last time it was alien's OP. It will likely never be perfect. Enjoy marines being OP until the next patch makes aliens OP again.
As a follow up, I'd like to add that stomp seems pretty sucky now too. I don't mean the change from a directed stream to area of effect - I mean the inconsistent manner in which it lays out marines. Seems like its random if its going to work or not.
Its such a simple fix too - just increase onos armor, try adding 100 to base armor and give a bonus of 350 for carapace. Regen speed needs to be doubled too. That should even it out a bit.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
I don't think the aim thing is a case of L2P for most people, it's something you can either do or will never learn. Certainly I know folks who have played games like CS and quake 3 for years and are have plateaued when it comes to aim skills. certainly not the level required for NS2. I think the trouble for really good skulk players is there's not a lot the can do to mitigate godly aim apart from be in a group and that just ends with wars of attrition, which is a god damn dumb tactic to require.
Yes you're right; aim isn't an "L2P" issue. I just said L2P because it's a general way of saying "You're bad" but sugar coating it with the inference that you can learn and get better.
The thing about skulks taking down good players is that they need to pick their engagements well. Skulks need to use the geometry and props of the map to come in from different angles, at different times, closing the distance between themselves and the marines whilst staying out of line of sight.
If you're saying that these engagements should end with casualties only on 1 side per engagement, then it's just going to be an even worse war of attrition when you come to look at the big picture of all the engagements across the game, and if one team wins all the engagements then it's just a stomp. The game is all about attrition of resources. You kill a shotgunner but lose a couple of skulks? Worth it! You kill a fade in an engagement and everything else leaves with no objective complete? Worth it! Grinding down the other team play by play.
Just two points here. Jetpack shotguns are fun. Phase gates aren't usually fun.
You don't understand, or your point isn't making sense to me.
Jetpack shotguns are fun when you're killing stuff, but now with the cries of "imbalance" when you see 4 fades and an umbra lerk wiping your 2-3 man pressure teams without any loss, you can see that jetpack shotguns are not fun because they don't kill stuff. Hence why people should look towards higher tech to compensate like the dual exos.
That statement you said about phasegates... I don't understand the relevance.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
I don't think the aim thing is a case of L2P for most people, it's something you can either do or will never learn. Certainly I know folks who have played games like CS and quake 3 for years and are have plateaued when it comes to aim skills. certainly not the level required for NS2. I think the trouble for really good skulk players is there's not a lot the can do to mitigate godly aim apart from be in a group and that just ends with wars of attrition, which is a god damn dumb tactic to require.
Yes you're right; aim isn't an "L2P" issue. I just said L2P because it's a general way of saying "You're bad" but sugar coating it with the inference that you can learn and get better.
The thing about skulks taking down good players is that they need to pick their engagements well. Skulks need to use the geometry and props of the map to come in from different angles, at different times, closing the distance between themselves and the marines whilst staying out of line of sight.
If you're saying that these engagements should end with casualties only on 1 side per engagement, then it's just going to be an even worse war of attrition when you come to look at the big picture of all the engagements across the game, and if one team wins all the engagements then it's just a stomp. The game is all about attrition of resources. You kill a shotgunner but lose a couple of skulks? Worth it! You kill a fade in an engagement and everything else leaves with no objective complete? Worth it! Grinding down the other team play by play.
Just two points here. Jetpack shotguns are fun. Phase gates aren't usually fun.
You don't understand, or your point isn't making sense to me.
Jetpack shotguns are fun when you're killing stuff, but now with the cries of "imbalance" when you see 4 fades and an umbra lerk wiping your 2-3 man pressure teams without any loss, you can see that jetpack shotguns are not fun because they don't kill stuff. Hence why people should look towards higher tech to compensate like the dual exos.
That statement you said about phasegates... I don't understand the relevance.
Have we ever tried putting a soft cap on exos and onos? Kinda like what combat does. 1 Exo/Onos per X amount of players. Might mitigate the 8 exo pushes I see happen in 12v12 servers.
Have we ever tried putting a soft cap on exos and onos? Kinda like what combat does. 1 Exo/Onos per X amount of players. Might mitigate the 8 exo pushes I see happen in 12v12 servers.
But would you really want to? I mean no one takes the game seriously in those servers anyway because it's such a ridiculous cluster-****. The balance in larger servers is really off right now, but then scalability has always been an issue for NS2 (and NS1) and will continue to be a problem for a long time to come by the very nature of ranged vs melee combat.
Comments
But with shotguns the way they are right now, that alien win rate is going to stay high.
Onos does need a health increase though gore range could use a very slight extension again,. Exos could definitely use a nerf, maybe 20 damage per bullet.
Aliens have always been stronger in competitive play than in public play. If we were to reach a 50-50 ratio in competitive play marines would completely overrun public servers. Interestingly, though, marines actually won more than aliens (4-3) in the Godar-Saunamen semifinals.
However, I do think that we need to change the way tiebreakers are dealt with. If aliens are winning as often as they are a team should be required to win by 2 rounds.
The problem is that movement and melee coordination is far far easier to learn and play with than tracking + twitch aiming because the movement of a different player can be unpredictable.
If you are extremely good at tracking + twitch aiming then aliens will be fearing a lot more and losing a lot more like you said.
The issue essentially is L2P (aim) for players who aren't in the top 6-7 teams.
OR..........
If you're having trouble aiming, then you need something which makes the bullets you do hit, do more damage (Dual exo)
Teams are not utilising this well enough, whether it be an issue of pres management, the capability of getting a 2nd CC, unaware of this idea or unable to get the 2nd CC.
I think people just aren't willing to set aside 1 marine to get dual exos, or dual exos aren't coming out quick enough. I don't know if this is a problem because they NEED to buy shotguns or if they just don't consider saving.
I think it's possible that most competitive games can reach the dual exo requirements (Pres, tres, 2nd CC map control).
Players are not playing to use the features available to them to win the game. People are obsessed with sticking to "tried and tested" methods. Competitive players are stuck to the classic SG/JP just as badly as public are to PG, OBS, CC, Armory, IP in every tech point.
Fade balls are more deadly now imo and especially with people actually using umbra now. It's time for comp players to use dual exos.
Seriously though, agreed with most of the posts here. Onos is weak as now. It is possible to get killed by a single 1 minigun exo walking backwards, being nanoshielded and welded by 1 marine (this happened to me). So, solution, Make the onos tougher (more hp and armor for cara), and weaken the Exos slightly. One exo can hold the marine start for turtles for a long time if the Alien team isn't coordinated enough. I know you will say, well get coordinated. I only play on pubs, and I think the priority for UWE is to make pubs fun so people stick around.
The onos being too weak is independent of exos. the main fear an onos should have is a pack of 2 or 3 jp marines, or 3 or more light marines. exos already got a massive hp nerf, and can go down absurdly quickly if not supported very carefully.
I think the onos needs a moderate armour boost, to help counter light and normal damage types a little better at the beginning of engagements. Exos are fine as they are for now tbh.
Yes, I see your point. Exos are not the great fearsome machines that they once were, being only 480 armor when maxed out on upgrades. Though I still think they go too fast walking backwards. The current onos needs just a slight boost to health so its not so weak, it doesn't have to be like the B249 days where 4 marines with W3 lmgs just can't kill an Onos.
I don't think the aim thing is a case of L2P for most people, it's something you can either do or will never learn. Certainly I know folks who have played games like CS and quake 3 for years and are have plateaued when it comes to aim skills. certainly not the level required for NS2. I think the trouble for really good skulk players is there's not a lot the can do to mitigate godly aim apart from be in a group and that just ends with wars of attrition, which is a god damn dumb tactic to require.
Just two points here. Jetpack shotguns are fun. Phase gates aren't usually fun.
Last time it was alien's OP. It will likely never be perfect. Enjoy marines being OP until the next patch makes aliens OP again.
Its such a simple fix too - just increase onos armor, try adding 100 to base armor and give a bonus of 350 for carapace. Regen speed needs to be doubled too. That should even it out a bit.
Yes you're right; aim isn't an "L2P" issue. I just said L2P because it's a general way of saying "You're bad" but sugar coating it with the inference that you can learn and get better.
The thing about skulks taking down good players is that they need to pick their engagements well. Skulks need to use the geometry and props of the map to come in from different angles, at different times, closing the distance between themselves and the marines whilst staying out of line of sight.
If you're saying that these engagements should end with casualties only on 1 side per engagement, then it's just going to be an even worse war of attrition when you come to look at the big picture of all the engagements across the game, and if one team wins all the engagements then it's just a stomp. The game is all about attrition of resources. You kill a shotgunner but lose a couple of skulks? Worth it! You kill a fade in an engagement and everything else leaves with no objective complete? Worth it! Grinding down the other team play by play.
You don't understand, or your point isn't making sense to me.
Jetpack shotguns are fun when you're killing stuff, but now with the cries of "imbalance" when you see 4 fades and an umbra lerk wiping your 2-3 man pressure teams without any loss, you can see that jetpack shotguns are not fun because they don't kill stuff. Hence why people should look towards higher tech to compensate like the dual exos.
That statement you said about phasegates... I don't understand the relevance.
It's cause they're broken
But would you really want to? I mean no one takes the game seriously in those servers anyway because it's such a ridiculous cluster-****. The balance in larger servers is really off right now, but then scalability has always been an issue for NS2 (and NS1) and will continue to be a problem for a long time to come by the very nature of ranged vs melee combat.