Well if i wanted to really enjoy NS2 right now i will do what you say to do, it's really the thing to do, but look i am realist i got Dota 2 and a tons of game on Steam (i play 2-4 hours everyday), why will i choose to bother playing this game, searching a server that suits me etc. and not just launch Dota 2 and get my load of fun for the night quickly and nicely. I don't want to be misleading : fun =/= braindead, you got it i hope.
Yeah, I'm getting tired of having to search for 249 servers just because UWE will not revert the majority of the 250 changes.
UWE, you should always remember that even though new players are silver, old players are golden, you have lost almost all your gold and don't have much silver left either.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
NS2 coming from its Half-Life mod roots rather than following recent trends in gaming indeed doesn't have a post-match window telling you how many experience points you gained in your class and chosen weapon. I've played enough BF3 to be familiar with such systems, and also pretty quickly realized the catharsis I received from it was false, and merely catered to my inner-completionist. It made me realize playing BF3 had become something of a grind for me.
I'm not necessarily against such systems, mind you. It just illustrated to me how a game can lengthen its lifespan beyond what my real enjoyment of the game allows. Well, allowed, because I figured it out now. My enjoyment comes from winning, from turning the game in my team's favour and defeating the opposition. And personally doing well in the process, of course. I don't need anything beyond the 'your team won' prompt to find catharsis.
And, like @RisingSun said, a lot of enjoyment also comes from playing with a community of regulars. I mostly play on the SCC (Spark Crafter Collective - a group of community level designers and custom level enthusiasts) server - as a result I don't play the official maps all that much these days - and subsequently hop on our mumble channel for merry banter with the lads.
@Holyteal You are in a "single" phase with video games. It is more fun for you to hop around girl (or guy) to girl and just have fun. I am more the relationship guy. I love the stability of a steady relationship/marriage. it is what i enjoy as you enjoy the single seen. Neither of us are wrong, it is just how be both enjoy games to the fullest. I also tend to get addicted into MMOs, not for the gameplay (though it has to be at least halfway decent), but for the community.
Don't get me wrong though, i am a total achievement wh**e and completionist. So NS2 is a nice break. Every game i am on equal footing and must earn my dominate place.
Yeah, I'm getting tired of having to search for 249 servers just because UWE will not revert the majority of the 250 changes.
UWE, you should always remember that even though new players are silver, old players are golden, you have lost almost all your gold and don't have much silver left either.
Hi, I'm an "old" player. Graduated bite cones was the last straw for me, and I almost completely stopped playing the game, checking in once every few months to see the game deteriorate. Culminating with gorgeous' brick skulks in 24x; this was the worst state the game has been in since the end of alpha. The improvement in 250 is almost obscene.
Yeah, I'm getting tired of having to search for 249 servers just because UWE will not revert the majority of the 250 changes.
UWE, you should always remember that even though new players are silver, old players are golden, you have lost almost all your gold and don't have much silver left either.
hit me up on steam (Roobubba), I'll teach you how to use the new fade, as that seems to be a recurring problem you have.
250 isn't going to get reverted. adapt or die. my offer of a helping hand is extended.
@Holyteal You are in a "single" phase with video games. It is more fun for you to hop around girl (or guy) to girl and just have fun. I am more the relationship guy. I love the stability of a steady relationship/marriage. it is what i enjoy as you enjoy the single seen. Neither of us are wrong, it is just how be both enjoy games to the fullest. I also tend to get addicted into MMOs, not for the gameplay (though it has to be at least halfway decent), but for the community.
Don't get me wrong though, i am a total achievement wh**e and completionist. So NS2 is a nice break. Every game i am on equal footing and must earn my dominate place.
Oh, you are master zen aren't you (yin/yang after all) , i wish you a good mariage, let me enjoy some frivolity before i meet the right girl of my sweetest dreams
Yeah, I'm getting tired of having to search for 249 servers just because UWE will not revert the majority of the 250 changes.
UWE, you should always remember that even though new players are silver, old players are golden, you have lost almost all your gold and don't have much silver left either.
+1 to ranking system of K:D ratio, or any ranking system to separate new players from being demolished by veterans.
the most important aspect imo. i helped a lot of new players on the steamsale. i tried to give them advices and suggestions how to play the game. but it was awfull to see my pupils getting killed and killed again. we lost 3 or 5 rounds in a row as aliens. its because of stack. 3 experienced players always stacking marines side rushed us down under 10 min. every round. and how can you explain that to the new players? they are asking me: " i tried everything you said but i never ever get a hit on a marine". they never got the cool feeling of a long and exciting game. they just got stomped and stomped again. and now i am asking you: do yoiu play a game where you get stomped and stomped no matter what you do? a lot of players are too frustrated that they get ratings like 2:23 or one guy with 1:48. if we can not make the rookies stronger we should get the teams fairer. so that the rookie can see the whole feeling and gameplay of ns2. i see lot of server with elo-based teams. we should make this a game feature. the game really really needs a level-system and anti-stacksystem. it would make the entrance to the game much easier
+1 to ranking system of K:D ratio, or any ranking system to separate new players from being demolished by veterans.
the most important aspect imo. i helped a lot of new players on the steamsale. i tried to give them advices and suggestions how to play the game. but it was awfull to see my pupils getting killed and killed again. we lost 3 or 5 rounds in a row as aliens. its because of stack. 3 experienced players always stacking marines side rushed us down under 10 min. every round. and how can you explain that to the new players? they are asking me: " i tried everything you said but i never ever get a hit on a marine". they never got the cool feeling of a long and exciting game. they just got stomped and stomped again. and now i am asking you: do yoiu play a game where you get stomped and stomped no matter what you do? a lot of players are too frustrated that they get ratings like 2:23 or one guy with 1:48. if we can not make the rookies stronger we should get the teams fairer. so that the rookie can see the whole feeling and gameplay of ns2. i see lot of server with elo-based teams. we should make this a game feature. the game really really needs a level-system and anti-stacksystem. it would make the entrance to the game much easier
I'll second the absolute frustration that one experiences while trying to teach a bunch of newbies who get picked on and demolished by the vets due to teamstack. The worst ever game I had in recent weeks was having 6 greens on the marines in an 8 man team, understandable since that's the more accessible part of NS2 gameplay for rookies, and while trying to explain to some of them why they should get welders sometime, how to space out during movement between areas, where to look out for skulk ambushes, etc, the entire alien team (no greens) was demolishing them repeatedly. They never got past getting shotguns and mines. Before you consider the possibility that the vets joined the aliens because the rookies filled up the marine team first, no. I initially wanted to join the alien team myself, but wasn't able to because in that game, the alien team was filled instantly upon loading by these people with j2 binds. How the hell do you want us to explain to them what a great experience NS2 can be? It makes me not even want to bother teaching rookies the mechanics of NS2 these days since it's going to be a waste of time when they eventually leave with the impression that learning the game doesn't make a frickin' difference.
How can you keep new players if you can't even keep old?
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
How can you keep new players if you can't even keep old?
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
Lets be thankful that UWE doesn't concentrate making this game a deathmatch, I prefer that kills are mostly a means to an end, it's quiet funny I'm one of those guys who gets a decent K/D and people ask how, and I say by playing the game properly, by making RTS decision, knowing when to push and when back off, or to flank, I don't want a game where kills are the focus, that's what Counter Strike is for, this game should be all about resourses, upgrades and map control, not who has the best K/D.
I've always hoped that UWE remove personal K/D and add a team K/D, at-least that has some merit in a TEAMBASED game, if people are playing this game on the idea of kills streaks, you're playing the wrong game, the FPS side has removed some of the depth, then people moan about complexity, but people like that, because of games like Hearts of Iron, Civilization(these two games, make this game look backwards in comparison, makes me laugh, when people say this game is too complex) and so on, I would argue that the dumb down NS2 has become, scared of the players who prefer complex games.
They came in and just realised that this game is no different compared to your K/D focused games, luckily it does show it's true nature sometimes, but not always.
About the main point, just allow rookies to play on only rookie servers, because they still have the choice to play other servers, but have a "sanctuary" to play with people on a even playing field.
About the main point, just allow rookies to play on only rookie servers, because they still have the choice to play other servers, but have a "sanctuary" to play with people on a even playing field.
NS2 isn't that kind of game of easily learn just by playing it. You can easily master most videogames just by playing them, simply, because they offer you enough hints, clues what this game is about, what to do and how to improve yourself - NS2 doesn't. If the game starts and you haven't been briefed or haven't read anything about the game, you'll most likely will have no clue whatsoever what's going on. A short introductionary video, like in Planetside2, might do wonders. Anyhow, if you stuff all rookies on the same server you'll end up with about 18 people who have not the slightest idea how to play this game - this might be fun first, but suddenly turn into confusion.
You learn NS2 if you watch and play with people who know the game. They don't even need to give you any advice - though, that helps - but you need to have some sort in-game feedback-systems and veterans are the best the feedback the game currently has. The playing field might be even, but it won't be any fun because they won't play NS2. To play NS2, you need to know the rules and first of all, you need a decent commander. It's like putting Europeans on a baseball field and saying "Play!". 99% won't have a clue about the rules and what to do. It simply won't be fun.
Seperated servers work in games which are either simple to grasp - most Shooters, for example - or which do a better job of giving feedback, in-game explanations and such. NS2 doesn't, and therefore, rookies have to play with the big guys, otherwise, they might have started ns2.exe but they won't get any idea what NS2 is like.
A better in-game feedback, I think that's what the game really needs. Maybe a brief introduction about the game mechanics while you're loading, like it's done in Planetside2. Seperating vets and rookies or giving rookies or the explore-mode won't do the job, because you only learn a game by playing it in a real situation.
About the main point, just allow rookies to play on only rookie servers, because they still have the choice to play other servers, but have a "sanctuary" to play with people on a even playing field.
NS2 isn't that kind of game of easily learn just by playing it. You can easily master most videogames just by playing them, simply, because they offer you enough hints, clues what this game is about, what to do and how to improve yourself - NS2 doesn't. If the game starts and you haven't been briefed or haven't read anything about the game, you'll most likely will have no clue whatsoever what's going on. A short introductionary video, like in Planetside2, might do wonders. Anyhow, if you stuff all rookies on the same server you'll end up with about 18 people who have not the slightest idea how to play this game - this might be fun first, but suddenly turn into confusion.
You learn NS2 if you watch and play with people who know the game. They don't even need to give you any advice - though, that helps - but you need to have some sort in-game feedback-systems and veterans are the best the feedback the game currently has. The playing field might be even, but it won't be any fun because they won't play NS2. To play NS2, you need to know the rules and first of all, you need a decent commander. It's like putting Europeans on a baseball field and saying "Play!". 99% won't have a clue about the rules and what to do. It simply won't be fun.
Seperated servers work in games which are either simple to grasp - most Shooters, for example - or which do a better job of giving feedback, in-game explanations and such. NS2 doesn't, and therefore, rookies have to play with the big guys, otherwise, they might have started ns2.exe but they won't get any idea what NS2 is like.
A better in-game feedback, I think that's what the game really needs. Maybe a brief introduction about the game mechanics while you're loading, like it's done in Planetside2. Seperating vets and rookies or giving rookies or the explore-mode won't do the job, because you only learn a game by playing it in a real situation.
I can not agree, plenty of games separate, Starcraft, Dota 2 and so on and those two games I'd say have more of a learning curve then this game.
As I said, you can still allow Rookies to go on other servers, also there are tooltips, also just learn it the way I did, by just playing, this game isn't that difficult to pick up, it's complexity is in the middle of the road like.
There are both styles of learning in this game, people who look for guides in all forms and others who just play the game, the latter will just have to accept if he/she joins other servers they're going to get stomped by someone, maybe that's a fair point, and tooltip saying there isn't a seperation and people will go against players who have reached a high skill level.
Though I guess playing games like Hearts of Iron & Civilization have giving me a much easy time in understanding games with any learning curve, and frankly NS2 isn't that steep.
UWE should try to create a level-system. then every player and rookie can easily recognize which players are good and which one are new. level-system can be easily build up on different aspects:
1.) play-time. lvl 1: till 10 hours
lvl 2: till 30 hours
... lvl 99: till 2000 hours e.t.c
2.) skill-based: each kill gives xp, winning gives more xp than loosing. building stuff gives xp.
3.) challenges: win game as commander to get lvl 10, kill skulk to get lvl 2, kill fade with shotgun for level 11., e.t.c
the levelsystem should NOT affect the gameplay. it just gives all players an overview over the teams and if it is stacked or not.
in the second step uwe could try to make a randomize function where the teams are build up based on that level system. so that both teams have near the same amount of level.
i know that this can not prevent all imbalances in the game, but it would be a first try to prevent stack and stomping. with that system a lot of new players would not feel so bad when they know that every team has near the same chance to win with the same level of players.
if you think this is a bad idea i would really like to hear why, because imo that is absolutly necessary
I can not agree, plenty of games separate, Starcraft, Dota 2 and so on and those two games I'd say have more of a learning curve then this game.
I won't agree. The basics of both games are very simple; everyone who has the slightest idea of RTs game will easily figure out how to play SC2. Dota 2 does a good job at explaining itself. Of course, you need to invest a lot of time to get good at both games, but after a few minutes you've figured out how to play the game - that's a difference. You might need years to get good at soccer, but you've understood the rules after half a minute. That's however not true for NS2.
The game relies so heavily on people knowing that to do, especially on a half-decent commander. If there's no one on the team who knows how to play the game, chances are high that you'll never find out because the game gives hardly any tooltips, heck, it doesn't even tell you how to win as marine / alien. Unless you command, you won't even have any chance to find out about the function of the chambers, buildings and such. There, I think, is a huge difference between SC2/Dota2 and NS2 - SC2 and Dota2 are quite easily to learn. With that I mean, you know after a few minutes what you're supposed to do. What you have to learn is how to get better. In NS2 is frequently come across rookies who don't even know how to win or that there is something like a commander in the first place. For a game which relies so heavily upon the commander, I think seperating rookies from the rest would result in an overall frustrating experience for every new player.
For that, I think, you need experienced players. I'd suggest to implement some sort of ranking system so players can easily see how experienced a player is and can thus hopefully come up with more balanced teams. If the player would have more information and feedback available, probably it would be way more easier to come up with balanced teams. Right now, you've know clue how good/experienced a player is unless you've played with/against him.
How can you keep new players if you can't even keep old?
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
And how is the new camo worse? Oh right, you can't move and be fully stealthed. Honestly, the old camo was boring as hell to me because you literally had to just walk up to a marine early game and you get a free kill. How is that rewarding in even the slightest? There's no honest answer other then: it wasn't. And this version is even better because guess what, it's not negated almost completely mid-game as you get the silence bonus along with it. But then, it seems there's a few people on these boards that insist we must give free or extremely easy kills to new players to keep them interested. I'm trying to think back to what games kept me in them for the long term because of garbage like that. I'm coming up with absolutely none.
I love the early game because it is simpler, and you have time to think. I truly believe the twitch shooter has had its day, or at least, when things become so fast and messy within a game that you can't think your way out of the situation in time, it loses its appeal.
Take BF3 for instance.
When I am playing a game, I am always considering what the next move is. So there are 3 guys ahead of me, which one do I prioritise? One is sniping from a rock, the other two have continued on. So I'll flank and knife him, fire a rocket at the walls of the building above and use the rubble to take the next guy out.
If I get into trouble with the third guy, I might drop a grenade whilst he suppresses me and chases me behind a rock, and in doing so either gives me time to reload or kills himself for the troubles.
I think anyone who has played games before goes through this sort of logic in their head not just before the fight, but during.
Now some games are fast still, but they allow you the time to think. Not only that, but you understand the player movement and can easily judge how quickly a player is going to get from x to y.
This is why (imo) the early game is so much more satisfying. You line the skulks up, you prioritise and take appropriate action. Sometimes using obstacles to delay the skulk.
Late game this is too difficult, because there can be babblers running around. Fades blinking around. Lerks flying through your hair. It becomes too messy to actually keep up with things and the tactical edge to the game is lost and becomes frustrating.
I personally find that it is more satisfying when a quick plan works in your head, and can also play out in front of you. NS2 makes that really hard to accomplish.
I think NS1 worked where NS2 struggles, as the complexity visually was very low. Single brush walls and no dynamic lighting. If you want an example, just go on a roller-coaster or move your head around. Your vision blurs because your brain can't actually process the visual information fast enough.
I think there are factors that definitely have not been considered in this game, that are perhaps deeper than anticipated.
I can not agree, plenty of games separate, Starcraft, Dota 2 and so on and those two games I'd say have more of a learning curve then this game.
I won't agree. The basics of both games are very simple; everyone who has the slightest idea of RTs game will easily figure out how to play SC2. Dota 2 does a good job at explaining itself. Of course, you need to invest a lot of time to get good at both games, but after a few minutes you've figured out how to play the game - that's a difference. You might need years to get good at soccer, but you've understood the rules after half a minute. That's however not true for NS2.
The game relies so heavily on people knowing that to do, especially on a half-decent commander. If there's no one on the team who knows how to play the game, chances are high that you'll never find out because the game gives hardly any tooltips, heck, it doesn't even tell you how to win as marine / alien. Unless you command, you won't even have any chance to find out about the function of the chambers, buildings and such. There, I think, is a huge difference between SC2/Dota2 and NS2 - SC2 and Dota2 are quite easily to learn. With that I mean, you know after a few minutes what you're supposed to do. What you have to learn is how to get better. In NS2 is frequently come across rookies who don't even know how to win or that there is something like a commander in the first place. For a game which relies so heavily upon the commander, I think seperating rookies from the rest would result in an overall frustrating experience for every new player.
For that, I think, you need experienced players. I'd suggest to implement some sort of ranking system so players can easily see how experienced a player is and can thus hopefully come up with more balanced teams. If the player would have more information and feedback available, probably it would be way more easier to come up with balanced teams. Right now, you've know clue how good/experienced a player is unless you've played with/against him.
I disagree again, both those games have a lot of little things people don't know about, but I'll agree that they do a better job at explaining the basics, but for more complicated stuff, Dota is terrible even more so then NS2, for example how to pull creep or stack them.
Another thing, how long it takes to learn, it took me about an hour to know everything except for the most obsure things like puncture damage, light and heavy damage, but even that isn't that hard to understand, also about your first point, it's called football!
Though I do believe you making this game sound more complicated then it is, at best it's moderately difficult at best.
But you second issue about knowing what to do, come on, everyone game requires you to know what to do, another thing it does tell you how to win the game, at the beginning it says kill the Hive/CC.
Well the way I learnt how to play the commander role was just jumping in, but at-least tell people it's your first time.
The reason I don't like your ranking system, because I know plenty of players quite a lot hours but still aren't that good at the game.
You never truly get balanced games until people themselves balance it out, the best we can hope for is accidently balanced games.
My 2 cents would be that the devs can't make up their minds on bug fixes and balances. Take just about any issue with this game and you can compare it to the crushing machine on mineshaft, it works on and off every patch.
Notice how the armory no longer repairs armor, well they tried that in beta realized it didn’t work and put it back in. Now they took it away again, this was something they fixed months and months ago in beta but they still can’t make up their minds.
And then let’s look at how aliens loose upgrades even if they evolve into that particular skill. I thought this game was about aliens versus marines but if the devs are going to make aliens and marines tech trees so close together then we might as well just play marines versus marines.
I had a days leave yesterday so I thought id play NS2 ( I was going by the name of "george" to avoid a mate of mine pestering me - did see a few regulars from here). I think I played for about 7 hours all told at various times throughout the day. I played on 18, 24 and (gulp) the 32 man server. Oddly enough, the 32 man was the most fun for me although obviously a trainwreck as far as balance goes - still it was fun.
On the 18 and 24 man the biggest annoyance for me were twofold. One, a single base defeated marine side with no hope of winning (tram) needed 3 onos and 3 gorges to finish off the power. They had 2 single Exos sat on robo factories on the top step. Insanely hard to get them out. Second was a finely balanced aliens and marine in veil. The tipping point? single power building beacon when the power goes out. It was hard enough getting the power out (cargo) with pub coordination, never mind the continual beacons with the power out. By that time exos had trudged along. Basically there seems to be no way to come back from a single "loss". Once a single bad decision has been made you might as well concede - thats what I found playing on various servers throughout the day (yoclan included).
Other aliens stuff; Fades. You broke my fades Ive commented on this before and I know it is a marmite thing, some people love it, I seem to be the only old fart who likes the original. Oh well woe is me. Khamm. Popped in, laughed at the cysting and ENORMITY of changes, popped out for someone else - I cannot be arsed relearning that, god knows what a newbie would do.
Marines can still bunny hop away from skulks - coupled with the narrower bite cone it seems that if you know when to time a side jump you can live longer. Either that or im just lucky. Newbie marine comm steps in, says he is new and can someone help him. I start to chat and an eject vote starts and succeeds. Guy exits game. Noone steps into the chair. This was on a swedish server (there were only 3 populated servers at 11AM yesterday). New exo doesnt seem to kill any slower than the old one. Macs are made of diamond now it seems; marines can weld macs just as fast as the bile eats them - even if they do the silly dance.
so basically a newbie coming to the game will not be able to khamm or comm effectively. There are no real bots to play against in order to practice. Skulks can almost be outrun by stock marines and with the narrow bite cone can easily miss. Bile seems to have been pseudo nerfed so again newbies will wonder if it does anything at all. Oldies can put up or shut up. If you dont keep up with the test mod (why should I?) then you have NO IDEA what happens on patch day other than all of a sudden things are different.
Dare I say it? The 2 low ping combat servers were full all day I played. Great fun (devour! bring back devour dammit!).
I'll give it another couple of weeks and go back to neverwinter for a while (its not bad for a free game!)
Actually it's not dying. We were on 750 peek before the patch / sale and yesterday the peek was 1330. Sure it is decreasing from day to day. But this is every games curve.
Maybe your version of the game is not dying due to game sales and player counts but I think to us oldies the game isn’t fun anymore. I take a break from this game come back and ask myself “what the heck did they do to this game again.” It was fun for me to be the annoying lerk spiking marines or the random suicide bile bombing gorge that marines learned to fear. Now it seems that UWE said that were going to nerf them so much “we just made it so that you can’t do squat by yourself.”
It seems more times than not if either side looses any one base or even a crucial part of the map players begin spamming the concede and give up. No one is willing to fight and make the other team actually earn their victory, players just give up and want to start a new round asap. Remember the good ole 90+ min games you would find once in a while and the god awful 16+ hour games in NS1?
It also seems like both the marines and aliens even though they should be very different are finding a lot of similarities on how upgrades work.
I play since beta and have played NS1 years ago. And NS2 B251 is fun to me. I'm not less of a pain in the onos when playing lerk as I was before. I also remember mass concedes before 251. B250 my not be the best build for balance. But it was a very fun and refreshing build. Given, that one can handle change.
+1 to ranking system of K:D ratio, or any ranking system to separate new players from being demolished by veterans.
the most important aspect imo. i helped a lot of new players on the steamsale. i tried to give them advices and suggestions how to play the game. but it was awfull to see my pupils getting killed and killed again. we lost 3 or 5 rounds in a row as aliens. its because of stack. 3 experienced players always stacking marines side rushed us down under 10 min. every round. and how can you explain that to the new players? they are asking me: " i tried everything you said but i never ever get a hit on a marine". they never got the cool feeling of a long and exciting game. they just got stomped and stomped again. and now i am asking you: do yoiu play a game where you get stomped and stomped no matter what you do? a lot of players are too frustrated that they get ratings like 2:23 or one guy with 1:48. if we can not make the rookies stronger we should get the teams fairer. so that the rookie can see the whole feeling and gameplay of ns2. i see lot of server with elo-based teams. we should make this a game feature. the game really really needs a level-system and anti-stacksystem. it would make the entrance to the game much easier
I'll second the absolute frustration that one experiences while trying to teach a bunch of newbies who get picked on and demolished by the vets due to teamstack. The worst ever game I had in recent weeks was having 6 greens on the marines in an 8 man team, understandable since that's the more accessible part of NS2 gameplay for rookies, and while trying to explain to some of them why they should get welders sometime, how to space out during movement between areas, where to look out for skulk ambushes, etc, the entire alien team (no greens) was demolishing them repeatedly. They never got past getting shotguns and mines. Before you consider the possibility that the vets joined the aliens because the rookies filled up the marine team first, no. I initially wanted to join the alien team myself, but wasn't able to because in that game, the alien team was filled instantly upon loading by these people with j2 binds. How the hell do you want us to explain to them what a great experience NS2 can be? It makes me not even want to bother teaching rookies the mechanics of NS2 these days since it's going to be a waste of time when they eventually leave with the impression that learning the game doesn't make a frickin' difference.
Define rookie...
I've seen green players being far better than non green players. I do believe that players must understand in the first place that:
*It is a cooperative game with a commander
*You have to listen and follow orders (no "sir yes sir" involved")
*Some knowledge of maps (helped by WP).
...more than being a excellent pistolero (which brings another topic). As a commander i like to see a unit kills 3 opponents and finally kills the RT. But if it is only the RT and my unit dies. It still render the opponent action useless and that's ok (it buys time).
That's were the K:D ratio isn't a good way to measure player performance. NS2 needs better tutorials and at least, tutorials that are watched/browsed before playing the game.
A single player tutorial experience would be great. Like an auto commander giving orders and stuff to do. PPL would get it in a better way than : go there , do that while the new guy doesn't have a clue etc...
On the note of K:D, why do we even record/show death? (I do like to see my ratio, but that is a carry over from older games and FPS's in general)
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
Losing a few games in a row to imbalanced teams is probably enough to make any rookie quit. Or really make anyone at least put the game down for a bit. Don't get me wrong, when I play prefer to play with my friends if possible. My friends and I aren't the best at the game, but when a sale or free weekend occurs we clean up. We play a lot more casually (one guy's mission is to always be vent-gorge), but to the stronger players we probably appear as rookies.
What would be nice is if there was some incentive to play against stronger opponents. Perhaps an experience rating/level system. It could be displayed on the scoreboard or not, and you could include a tip to "look to more experienced players for help". The algorithm doesn't even have to be that complicated; link it to hours played. Then win or lose, if you're playing against more experienced players, you get points or skins or hats (if you want to compete in that market). You could make a ladder system if that sounds appealing.
I think hiding/removing deaths from the scoreboard is a good idea. It serves little in-game purpose. Perhaps if needed include an option for "advanced scoreboard" which can return the deaths column.
Comments
Pure luck they choose a server with community and a personality they meld well with. (also why i am against the UWE servers.)
UWE, you should always remember that even though new players are silver, old players are golden, you have lost almost all your gold and don't have much silver left either.
I'm not necessarily against such systems, mind you. It just illustrated to me how a game can lengthen its lifespan beyond what my real enjoyment of the game allows. Well, allowed, because I figured it out now. My enjoyment comes from winning, from turning the game in my team's favour and defeating the opposition. And personally doing well in the process, of course. I don't need anything beyond the 'your team won' prompt to find catharsis.
And, like @RisingSun said, a lot of enjoyment also comes from playing with a community of regulars. I mostly play on the SCC (Spark Crafter Collective - a group of community level designers and custom level enthusiasts) server - as a result I don't play the official maps all that much these days - and subsequently hop on our mumble channel for merry banter with the lads.
EDIT: typotypotypo
Don't get me wrong though, i am a total achievement wh**e and completionist. So NS2 is a nice break. Every game i am on equal footing and must earn my dominate place.
Hi, I'm an "old" player. Graduated bite cones was the last straw for me, and I almost completely stopped playing the game, checking in once every few months to see the game deteriorate. Culminating with gorgeous' brick skulks in 24x; this was the worst state the game has been in since the end of alpha. The improvement in 250 is almost obscene.
@coolitic
hit me up on steam (Roobubba), I'll teach you how to use the new fade, as that seems to be a recurring problem you have.
250 isn't going to get reverted. adapt or die. my offer of a helping hand is extended.
Oh, you are master zen aren't you (yin/yang after all)
Hey Coolitic... the horse died a year ago.
the most important aspect imo. i helped a lot of new players on the steamsale. i tried to give them advices and suggestions how to play the game. but it was awfull to see my pupils getting killed and killed again. we lost 3 or 5 rounds in a row as aliens. its because of stack. 3 experienced players always stacking marines side rushed us down under 10 min. every round. and how can you explain that to the new players? they are asking me: " i tried everything you said but i never ever get a hit on a marine". they never got the cool feeling of a long and exciting game. they just got stomped and stomped again. and now i am asking you: do yoiu play a game where you get stomped and stomped no matter what you do? a lot of players are too frustrated that they get ratings like 2:23 or one guy with 1:48. if we can not make the rookies stronger we should get the teams fairer. so that the rookie can see the whole feeling and gameplay of ns2. i see lot of server with elo-based teams. we should make this a game feature. the game really really needs a level-system and anti-stacksystem. it would make the entrance to the game much easier
I'll second the absolute frustration that one experiences while trying to teach a bunch of newbies who get picked on and demolished by the vets due to teamstack. The worst ever game I had in recent weeks was having 6 greens on the marines in an 8 man team, understandable since that's the more accessible part of NS2 gameplay for rookies, and while trying to explain to some of them why they should get welders sometime, how to space out during movement between areas, where to look out for skulk ambushes, etc, the entire alien team (no greens) was demolishing them repeatedly. They never got past getting shotguns and mines. Before you consider the possibility that the vets joined the aliens because the rookies filled up the marine team first, no. I initially wanted to join the alien team myself, but wasn't able to because in that game, the alien team was filled instantly upon loading by these people with j2 binds. How the hell do you want us to explain to them what a great experience NS2 can be? It makes me not even want to bother teaching rookies the mechanics of NS2 these days since it's going to be a waste of time when they eventually leave with the impression that learning the game doesn't make a frickin' difference.
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
Lets be thankful that UWE doesn't concentrate making this game a deathmatch, I prefer that kills are mostly a means to an end, it's quiet funny I'm one of those guys who gets a decent K/D and people ask how, and I say by playing the game properly, by making RTS decision, knowing when to push and when back off, or to flank, I don't want a game where kills are the focus, that's what Counter Strike is for, this game should be all about resourses, upgrades and map control, not who has the best K/D.
I've always hoped that UWE remove personal K/D and add a team K/D, at-least that has some merit in a TEAMBASED game, if people are playing this game on the idea of kills streaks, you're playing the wrong game, the FPS side has removed some of the depth, then people moan about complexity, but people like that, because of games like Hearts of Iron, Civilization(these two games, make this game look backwards in comparison, makes me laugh, when people say this game is too complex) and so on, I would argue that the dumb down NS2 has become, scared of the players who prefer complex games.
They came in and just realised that this game is no different compared to your K/D focused games, luckily it does show it's true nature sometimes, but not always.
About the main point, just allow rookies to play on only rookie servers, because they still have the choice to play other servers, but have a "sanctuary" to play with people on a even playing field.
NS2 isn't that kind of game of easily learn just by playing it. You can easily master most videogames just by playing them, simply, because they offer you enough hints, clues what this game is about, what to do and how to improve yourself - NS2 doesn't. If the game starts and you haven't been briefed or haven't read anything about the game, you'll most likely will have no clue whatsoever what's going on. A short introductionary video, like in Planetside2, might do wonders. Anyhow, if you stuff all rookies on the same server you'll end up with about 18 people who have not the slightest idea how to play this game - this might be fun first, but suddenly turn into confusion.
You learn NS2 if you watch and play with people who know the game. They don't even need to give you any advice - though, that helps - but you need to have some sort in-game feedback-systems and veterans are the best the feedback the game currently has. The playing field might be even, but it won't be any fun because they won't play NS2. To play NS2, you need to know the rules and first of all, you need a decent commander. It's like putting Europeans on a baseball field and saying "Play!". 99% won't have a clue about the rules and what to do. It simply won't be fun.
Seperated servers work in games which are either simple to grasp - most Shooters, for example - or which do a better job of giving feedback, in-game explanations and such. NS2 doesn't, and therefore, rookies have to play with the big guys, otherwise, they might have started ns2.exe but they won't get any idea what NS2 is like.
A better in-game feedback, I think that's what the game really needs. Maybe a brief introduction about the game mechanics while you're loading, like it's done in Planetside2. Seperating vets and rookies or giving rookies or the explore-mode won't do the job, because you only learn a game by playing it in a real situation.
I can not agree, plenty of games separate, Starcraft, Dota 2 and so on and those two games I'd say have more of a learning curve then this game.
As I said, you can still allow Rookies to go on other servers, also there are tooltips, also just learn it the way I did, by just playing, this game isn't that difficult to pick up, it's complexity is in the middle of the road like.
There are both styles of learning in this game, people who look for guides in all forms and others who just play the game, the latter will just have to accept if he/she joins other servers they're going to get stomped by someone, maybe that's a fair point, and tooltip saying there isn't a seperation and people will go against players who have reached a high skill level.
Though I guess playing games like Hearts of Iron & Civilization have giving me a much easy time in understanding games with any learning curve, and frankly NS2 isn't that steep.
1.) play-time. lvl 1: till 10 hours
lvl 2: till 30 hours
... lvl 99: till 2000 hours e.t.c
2.) skill-based: each kill gives xp, winning gives more xp than loosing. building stuff gives xp.
3.) challenges: win game as commander to get lvl 10, kill skulk to get lvl 2, kill fade with shotgun for level 11., e.t.c
the levelsystem should NOT affect the gameplay. it just gives all players an overview over the teams and if it is stacked or not.
in the second step uwe could try to make a randomize function where the teams are build up based on that level system. so that both teams have near the same amount of level.
examples:
marines ____ | alien
lvl 60 ____ | lvl 20
lvl 33 ____ | lvl 22
lvl 1 _____ | lvl 10
lvl 4 _____ | lvl 2
lvl 1 _____ | lvl 3
lvl 67 ____ | lvl 80
lvl 23 ____ | lvl 51
i know that this can not prevent all imbalances in the game, but it would be a first try to prevent stack and stomping. with that system a lot of new players would not feel so bad when they know that every team has near the same chance to win with the same level of players.
if you think this is a bad idea i would really like to hear why, because imo that is absolutly necessary
I won't agree. The basics of both games are very simple; everyone who has the slightest idea of RTs game will easily figure out how to play SC2. Dota 2 does a good job at explaining itself. Of course, you need to invest a lot of time to get good at both games, but after a few minutes you've figured out how to play the game - that's a difference. You might need years to get good at soccer, but you've understood the rules after half a minute. That's however not true for NS2.
The game relies so heavily on people knowing that to do, especially on a half-decent commander. If there's no one on the team who knows how to play the game, chances are high that you'll never find out because the game gives hardly any tooltips, heck, it doesn't even tell you how to win as marine / alien. Unless you command, you won't even have any chance to find out about the function of the chambers, buildings and such. There, I think, is a huge difference between SC2/Dota2 and NS2 - SC2 and Dota2 are quite easily to learn. With that I mean, you know after a few minutes what you're supposed to do. What you have to learn is how to get better. In NS2 is frequently come across rookies who don't even know how to win or that there is something like a commander in the first place. For a game which relies so heavily upon the commander, I think seperating rookies from the rest would result in an overall frustrating experience for every new player.
For that, I think, you need experienced players. I'd suggest to implement some sort of ranking system so players can easily see how experienced a player is and can thus hopefully come up with more balanced teams. If the player would have more information and feedback available, probably it would be way more easier to come up with balanced teams. Right now, you've know clue how good/experienced a player is unless you've played with/against him.
And how is the new camo worse? Oh right, you can't move and be fully stealthed. Honestly, the old camo was boring as hell to me because you literally had to just walk up to a marine early game and you get a free kill. How is that rewarding in even the slightest? There's no honest answer other then: it wasn't. And this version is even better because guess what, it's not negated almost completely mid-game as you get the silence bonus along with it. But then, it seems there's a few people on these boards that insist we must give free or extremely easy kills to new players to keep them interested. I'm trying to think back to what games kept me in them for the long term because of garbage like that. I'm coming up with absolutely none.
Take BF3 for instance.
When I am playing a game, I am always considering what the next move is. So there are 3 guys ahead of me, which one do I prioritise? One is sniping from a rock, the other two have continued on. So I'll flank and knife him, fire a rocket at the walls of the building above and use the rubble to take the next guy out.
If I get into trouble with the third guy, I might drop a grenade whilst he suppresses me and chases me behind a rock, and in doing so either gives me time to reload or kills himself for the troubles.
I think anyone who has played games before goes through this sort of logic in their head not just before the fight, but during.
Now some games are fast still, but they allow you the time to think. Not only that, but you understand the player movement and can easily judge how quickly a player is going to get from x to y.
This is why (imo) the early game is so much more satisfying. You line the skulks up, you prioritise and take appropriate action. Sometimes using obstacles to delay the skulk.
Late game this is too difficult, because there can be babblers running around. Fades blinking around. Lerks flying through your hair. It becomes too messy to actually keep up with things and the tactical edge to the game is lost and becomes frustrating.
I personally find that it is more satisfying when a quick plan works in your head, and can also play out in front of you. NS2 makes that really hard to accomplish.
I think NS1 worked where NS2 struggles, as the complexity visually was very low. Single brush walls and no dynamic lighting. If you want an example, just go on a roller-coaster or move your head around. Your vision blurs because your brain can't actually process the visual information fast enough.
I think there are factors that definitely have not been considered in this game, that are perhaps deeper than anticipated.
I disagree again, both those games have a lot of little things people don't know about, but I'll agree that they do a better job at explaining the basics, but for more complicated stuff, Dota is terrible even more so then NS2, for example how to pull creep or stack them.
Another thing, how long it takes to learn, it took me about an hour to know everything except for the most obsure things like puncture damage, light and heavy damage, but even that isn't that hard to understand, also about your first point, it's called football!
Though I do believe you making this game sound more complicated then it is, at best it's moderately difficult at best.
But you second issue about knowing what to do, come on, everyone game requires you to know what to do, another thing it does tell you how to win the game, at the beginning it says kill the Hive/CC.
Well the way I learnt how to play the commander role was just jumping in, but at-least tell people it's your first time.
The reason I don't like your ranking system, because I know plenty of players quite a lot hours but still aren't that good at the game.
You never truly get balanced games until people themselves balance it out, the best we can hope for is accidently balanced games.
Notice how the armory no longer repairs armor, well they tried that in beta realized it didn’t work and put it back in. Now they took it away again, this was something they fixed months and months ago in beta but they still can’t make up their minds.
And then let’s look at how aliens loose upgrades even if they evolve into that particular skill. I thought this game was about aliens versus marines but if the devs are going to make aliens and marines tech trees so close together then we might as well just play marines versus marines.
On the 18 and 24 man the biggest annoyance for me were twofold. One, a single base defeated marine side with no hope of winning (tram) needed 3 onos and 3 gorges to finish off the power. They had 2 single Exos sat on robo factories on the top step. Insanely hard to get them out. Second was a finely balanced aliens and marine in veil. The tipping point? single power building beacon when the power goes out. It was hard enough getting the power out (cargo) with pub coordination, never mind the continual beacons with the power out. By that time exos had trudged along. Basically there seems to be no way to come back from a single "loss". Once a single bad decision has been made you might as well concede - thats what I found playing on various servers throughout the day (yoclan included).
Other aliens stuff; Fades. You broke my fades
Marines can still bunny hop away from skulks - coupled with the narrower bite cone it seems that if you know when to time a side jump you can live longer. Either that or im just lucky. Newbie marine comm steps in, says he is new and can someone help him. I start to chat and an eject vote starts and succeeds. Guy exits game. Noone steps into the chair. This was on a swedish server (there were only 3 populated servers at 11AM yesterday). New exo doesnt seem to kill any slower than the old one. Macs are made of diamond now it seems; marines can weld macs just as fast as the bile eats them - even if they do the silly dance.
so basically a newbie coming to the game will not be able to khamm or comm effectively. There are no real bots to play against in order to practice. Skulks can almost be outrun by stock marines and with the narrow bite cone can easily miss. Bile seems to have been pseudo nerfed so again newbies will wonder if it does anything at all. Oldies can put up or shut up. If you dont keep up with the test mod (why should I?) then you have NO IDEA what happens on patch day other than all of a sudden things are different.
Dare I say it? The 2 low ping combat servers were full all day I played. Great fun (devour! bring back devour dammit!).
I'll give it another couple of weeks and go back to neverwinter for a while (its not bad for a free game!)
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#3m
It seems more times than not if either side looses any one base or even a crucial part of the map players begin spamming the concede and give up. No one is willing to fight and make the other team actually earn their victory, players just give up and want to start a new round asap. Remember the good ole 90+ min games you would find once in a while and the god awful 16+ hour games in NS1?
It also seems like both the marines and aliens even though they should be very different are finding a lot of similarities on how upgrades work.
I play since beta and have played NS1 years ago. And NS2 B251 is fun to me. I'm not less of a pain in the onos when playing lerk as I was before. I also remember mass concedes before 251. B250 my not be the best build for balance. But it was a very fun and refreshing build. Given, that one can handle change.
Define rookie...
I've seen green players being far better than non green players. I do believe that players must understand in the first place that:
*It is a cooperative game with a commander
*You have to listen and follow orders (no "sir yes sir" involved")
*Some knowledge of maps (helped by WP).
...more than being a excellent pistolero (which brings another topic). As a commander i like to see a unit kills 3 opponents and finally kills the RT. But if it is only the RT and my unit dies. It still render the opponent action useless and that's ok (it buys time).
That's were the K:D ratio isn't a good way to measure player performance. NS2 needs better tutorials and at least, tutorials that are watched/browsed before playing the game.
A single player tutorial experience would be great. Like an auto commander giving orders and stuff to do. PPL would get it in a better way than : go there , do that while the new guy doesn't have a clue etc...
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
What would be nice is if there was some incentive to play against stronger opponents. Perhaps an experience rating/level system. It could be displayed on the scoreboard or not, and you could include a tip to "look to more experienced players for help". The algorithm doesn't even have to be that complicated; link it to hours played. Then win or lose, if you're playing against more experienced players, you get points or skins or hats (if you want to compete in that market). You could make a ladder system if that sounds appealing.
I think hiding/removing deaths from the scoreboard is a good idea. It serves little in-game purpose. Perhaps if needed include an option for "advanced scoreboard" which can return the deaths column.