Wow... the solution to this entire debate was given pages ago. Put a hard cap on the speed. Raise it if the alien has celerity. Then people like Bitey can keep doing the new wall jump and the rest of the games population can keep doing the normal skulk jump.
EVERYONE IS HAPPY.
But then what would we argue about in the pages to come?
Anyone remember, I think it was in TFC, where you would bunnyhop and keep gaining speed until you hit a speed cap and it would knock you back to to default speed? The best players learned to stay right under the speed cap consistently.
You need god-tier internet end-boss power to even put a dent in the illogical babble I sometimes read on these forums. lol It will never end.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Maintain momentum from wall jumping by making sure that you jump before your model attaches to the wall. Since you can't see your model and can't be absolutely certain of where your model is hold ctrl, the anti stick button. Or press and hold space before every jump to automatically jump as as soon as the game deems it possible. Essentially spamming space for you to make sure you don't glue to the surface... Hmm.
How can intuitiveness be considered when the base, that any advanced movement mechanics has to be built upon is already so convoluted from a greens perspective.
There most defiantly should be tricks to get that little bit more speed. Mouse flicks to me, seem like an ideal way to do this. It's certainly more interesting than just lining up those corridor parallels and looking straight.
The problem with this mechanic is it doesn't actually require a 'mouse flick'. The only requirement is to change your view angle just before your jump significantly enough that it causes the velocity modifications from the walljump to trick the code into thinking your below 10 speed. There is no linear improvement with that method, its simply a case of changing your view angle enough - it can also be done before you jump. The only part that can somewhat be called progressive about this using heights in your jumps to also gain falling accel and using good strafe movements to minimize speed loss, but the benefits of doing both of those well is quickly made pointless by the fact you can just jump again for +1 more speed.
Ah well, it's removed. Hopefully advanced mechanics are introduced to squeeze out that bit of extra speed and efficiency later on.
Honestly it really got me back into the game over the last week. The movement mechanics as they (now) are have an extremely low skill ceiling, which is no fun.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
It's still possible to do, just there's no benefit in doing so. Except you move a bit away from the wall I guess. Which is lucky since it's gotten to the point for me where doing any other sort of movement is, *gasp* unintuitive.
Only ran around for a few minutes, maybe there's a new trick. Probably won't be posted here if there is.
Can't say I'm not a little disappointed to see it go, as I just got to a point where I could use it pretty consistently. But then again, it was arguably too much of a speed boost as well. Maybe bring it back in some form, but with a solid speed cap?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2013
You can still jump really high and far by aiming your wall jumps vertically upward. You gain the most total velocity, but horizontal jump force is not sacrificed for the vertical force gained, due to the way wall jump is currently coded.
This is hugely disappointing. What needed to happen was simply communication, and a more moderate hard cap on the max speed accessible with this method.
I generally support UWE's decisions, but I feel they've dropped the ball on this one. We've been clamouring for a skill-based movement mechanic for ages, and this one was actually interesting. Big shame. @Hugh: stern face!
Anyone remember, I think it was in TFC, where you would bunnyhop and keep gaining speed until you hit a speed cap and it would knock you back to to default speed? The best players learned to stay right under the speed cap consistently.
Half-life and mods based on valve's example mod in the HL SDK at first had no lag correction and effectively a 3 times runspeed cap on bunnyjumping(this was the maximum air speed of a player). Both of those were fixed in later release of the SDK and engine. Deathmatch classic is still based on a really old version of the SDK and does not even have lag correction(if you're not old enough to remember how bad that feels for internet play, feel free to try it).
NS 1 was based on a version of the HL SDK that included lag correction and a cap on bunnyjumping that would knock you down to default speed if you exceeded 1.7x default movement speed for your class. In version 2.0 UWE implemented a way of preventing marines from bunnyjumping(very brief slowdown whenever you land, so you cannot chain jumps, unless you're jumping up a slope for some reason) and knocked down aliens to 1.7x runspeed whenever they land(which means >1.7x run speed is achievable in bursts, e.g. by leaping. In the air the limit is still 3.0x run speed).
Before the usual trolling begins:
Bunnyhopping was not an engine bug. It was exposed in the pm_shared.c player physics available to modders.
Removing bunnyhopping in NS 1 would have been trivial, if UWE had wanted to do that. All you'd have to do is check if an air move increased the players horisontal velocity and if the player's horisontal velocity exceeds 1.0x runspeed, then renormalize to whatever speed the player had before entering the air-move function; and always knock back player speed on landing to 1.0x runspeed. This would not have affected the feeling of air control, jumping up on objects you are pressing against(you need some allowance to change speed in the air for this) speed gains above 1.0x from leaping or anything else.
What this will result in is new tricks being kept secret. Not because people want to have an edge and not wanting other people to know, but because the tricks get removed.
You can still jump really high and far by aiming your wall jumps vertically upward. You gain the most total velocity, but horizontal jump force is not sacrificed for the vertical force gained, due to the way wall jump is currently coded.
Why would i do that when i can just go near wall, hold strafe and spam space into 11 speed?
This current iteration offers no real new moves in the combat but it just makes traveling spamming space again.
What this will result in is new tricks being kept secret. Not because people want to have an edge and not wanting other people to know, but because the tricks get removed.
Well done.
Exactly.
Now instead of these maximum-performance-tricks being shared (and hence can be found and known by anyone who cares enough to search), any new ones that are found (and they probably will be found) will be hidden away, making understanding of the game even harder.
TF2 has ridiculous, completely unintuitive rocket (and other) jumping techniques, and it is far more awesome for it.
I am not sure why you are surprised, nor why people think its 'disappointing'. You already have a mechanic that is designed for increasing speed via skillfull movement - wallhopping. Why does there need to be a mechanic ontop of that mechanic for increasing your speed further? If wallhopping is too bland/boring/easy/slow then that's a problem with wallhopping, we dont need an additional mechanic ontop of wallhopping to fix that.
TF2 has ridiculous, completely unintuitive rocket (and other) jumping techniques, and it is far more awesome for it.
What? I don't even
What's more intuitive than a rocket exploding at your feet sending you flying? Even if you don't think to try it yourself you will see others doing it, and it's overly clear what they're doing. "Buttjumping" is so non-obvious, along with most other NS2 movement tricks, that even if you see other players doing it you most probably won't see what they're actually doing, especially in normal gameplay.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Meh, rocket jumping might be more obvious. But still a wall jumping Skulk moving at faster speeds is still quite obviously doing something to get to those speeds. And when they try it they will see their speed will boost, adding in small variations such as buttjumping or wall skimming, just makes it more interesting. Besides Rocket jumping also has tiny hidden variations that make it more effective, than just shooting and jumping.
Duck jump for more umpf
Shooting from a wall to a wall, chaining jumps
Shooting it thusly, so it does the least amount of damage for the most amount of distance
I wouldn't say the current walljump movement system is all that skill based. You jump off walls, hold spacebar, press W and a strafe key, and strafe around turns. Not too hard to master
Butt-jump was the exact same strafe mechanic just done in a backwards way.
._.
Regardless, I would have rather seen a speed cap instead. I have a feeling that there is a soft speedcap currently and butt-jump was just bypassing it. Maybe it was easier to just remove it altogether. *shrug
I am not sure why you are surprised, nor why people think its 'disappointing'. You already have a mechanic that is designed for increasing speed via skillfull movement - wallhopping.
Because the current mechanic is boring as ox on a field. Go to nearest wall, spam space while holding strafe till you reach 11, bunnyhop through the map, ????, bored. With the qued hold space jump there's not even the timing anymore.
You don't even have to look for better routes because you can accelerate and hold the speed by just spamming space and going through the nearest corner.
And what was different about the old mechanic? you went to a wall holding inverse strafe, looked 75 degrees away from the wall when you jumped and repeated - you just gained more speed. Perhaps you should suggest improvements to walljump conceptually rather then just wanting back a mechanic that logically makes little sense and also aside from the quite large speed gain, didn't change the fundamentals of wallhopping at all.
And what was different about the old mechanic? you went to a wall holding inverse strafe, looked 75 degrees away from the wall when you jumped and repeated - you just gained more speed. Perhaps you should suggest improvements to walljump conceptually rather then just wanting back a mechanic that logically makes little sense and also aside from the quite large speed gain, didn't change the fundamentals of wallhopping at all.
I always thought it would be a good idea to reward jumping wall to wall.
Example: A marine rightfully positions himself down a hallway. If you, as skulk, are able to jump down that hallway left wall --> right wall --> left wall --> right wall, that could be given an additional speed boost.
And what was different about the old mechanic? you went to a wall holding inverse strafe, looked 75 degrees away from the wall when you jumped and repeated - you just gained more speed. Perhaps you should suggest improvements to walljump conceptually rather then just wanting back a mechanic that logically makes little sense and also aside from the quite large speed gain, didn't change the fundamentals of wallhopping at all.
I always thought it would be a good idea to reward jumping wall to wall.
Example: A marine rightfully positions himself down a hallway. If you, as skulk, are able to jump down that hallway left wall --> right wall --> left wall --> right wall, that could be given an additional speed boost.
I've been thinking about this too, but not long enough to have a clue what the real consequences would be. But the idea sounds fun, since you'd have to find those walls within reach of an opposing wall etc. Instead of just DURR WALL SPACESPACE....
I even fantasized wall-to-wall jumping giving infinite speed boost, so that you would inevitably mess it up as your skulk reached +20 speed, and then have to start over again. :P
The zigzagging movement made the map navigating more fun. You had to look for routes to get the best angles at high speeds. You couldn't just straight spam space onward if you wanted to go fastest. Also it made possible that you could enter the combat with different speeds thus enabling more angles of attack. Now you are too slow to do that.
And what was different about the old mechanic? you went to a wall holding inverse strafe, looked 75 degrees away from the wall when you jumped and repeated - you just gained more speed. Perhaps you should suggest improvements to walljump conceptually rather then just wanting back a mechanic that logically makes little sense and also aside from the quite large speed gain, didn't change the fundamentals of wallhopping at all.
By that token we need to strip out the strafe jumping too, and the jump to maintain speed mechanic.
I've long been suggesting that we need something novel to replace the concept of bhop. We at least had something almost parallel in the buttjumping mechanic. We missed the boat for introducing a genuinely novel skill-based movement mechanic. That's why it's a shame to find something moderately suitable only to have it removed without, to my mind, decent justification (given that a better cap and communication were all that was required to make this work).
Why would you need to strip those mechanics out - they quite nicely complement wallhopping without adding major speed increases. I personally would like to see them increased slightly in importance, similar to older versions of the BT movement - where max speed movement required a combination of good route planning to maximize turning radius, good strafe movement and wallhopping to gain speed and good spacing to maintain your speed.
As for the pros of the buttjumping, both good route planning and speed variety were satisfied in older versions of the BT movement, its just much of that speed was gutted to preserve balance. Your entire argument comes down to the skulk being too slow without the movement, which I can agree with, so argue about that.
The fact that people here are really trying to justify the butt jumping mechanic as something that was genuinely skill based is so laughable its actually sad. There was absolutely 0 additional skill required to perform the butt jumping over standard wallhopping, it was 100% game knowledge. By all means continue to delude yourselves about a mechanic you have little understanding of, but at least attempt to have a valid point.
Why would you need to strip those mechanics out - they quite nicely complement wallhopping without adding major speed increases. I personally would like to see them increased slightly in importance, similar to older versions of the BT movement - where max speed movement required a combination of good route planning to maximize turning radius, good strafe movement and wallhopping to gain speed and good spacing to maintain your speed.
As for the pros of the buttjumping, both good route planning and speed variety were satisfied in older versions of the BT movement, its just much of that speed was gutted to preserve balance. Your entire argument comes down to the skulk being too slow without the movement, which I can agree with, so argue about that.
The fact that people here are really trying to justify the butt jumping mechanic as something that was genuinely skill based is so laughable its actually sad. There was absolutely 0 additional skill required to perform the butt jumping over standard wallhopping, it was 100% game knowledge. By all means continue to delude yourselves about a mechanic you have little understanding of, but at least attempt to have a valid point.
One could definitely argue that learning, planning, and properly executing routes through the map is more skill based than the current boring-as-fuck space spam that we have. The actual mechanic didn't require much more skill though, it's the route planning and execution that makes a difference imo.
I'm fine with this being taken out if skulk speed is buffed, but the removal of this has made me significantly less interested in NS2. This got me excited about the game for the first time in months, now we're back to the boring, slow as shit vanilla wall jump.
Comments
You need god-tier internet end-boss power to even put a dent in the illogical babble I sometimes read on these forums. lol It will never end.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was late TFC.
How can intuitiveness be considered when the base, that any advanced movement mechanics has to be built upon is already so convoluted from a greens perspective.
There most defiantly should be tricks to get that little bit more speed. Mouse flicks to me, seem like an ideal way to do this. It's certainly more interesting than just lining up those corridor parallels and looking straight.
Honestly it really got me back into the game over the last week. The movement mechanics as they (now) are have an extremely low skill ceiling, which is no fun.
Only ran around for a few minutes, maybe there's a new trick. Probably won't be posted here if there is.
I generally support UWE's decisions, but I feel they've dropped the ball on this one. We've been clamouring for a skill-based movement mechanic for ages, and this one was actually interesting. Big shame. @Hugh: stern face!
Half-life and mods based on valve's example mod in the HL SDK at first had no lag correction and effectively a 3 times runspeed cap on bunnyjumping(this was the maximum air speed of a player). Both of those were fixed in later release of the SDK and engine. Deathmatch classic is still based on a really old version of the SDK and does not even have lag correction(if you're not old enough to remember how bad that feels for internet play, feel free to try it).
NS 1 was based on a version of the HL SDK that included lag correction and a cap on bunnyjumping that would knock you down to default speed if you exceeded 1.7x default movement speed for your class. In version 2.0 UWE implemented a way of preventing marines from bunnyjumping(very brief slowdown whenever you land, so you cannot chain jumps, unless you're jumping up a slope for some reason) and knocked down aliens to 1.7x runspeed whenever they land(which means >1.7x run speed is achievable in bursts, e.g. by leaping. In the air the limit is still 3.0x run speed).
Before the usual trolling begins:
Bunnyhopping was not an engine bug. It was exposed in the pm_shared.c player physics available to modders.
Removing bunnyhopping in NS 1 would have been trivial, if UWE had wanted to do that. All you'd have to do is check if an air move increased the players horisontal velocity and if the player's horisontal velocity exceeds 1.0x runspeed, then renormalize to whatever speed the player had before entering the air-move function; and always knock back player speed on landing to 1.0x runspeed. This would not have affected the feeling of air control, jumping up on objects you are pressing against(you need some allowance to change speed in the air for this) speed gains above 1.0x from leaping or anything else.
Well done.
This current iteration offers no real new moves in the combat but it just makes traveling spamming space again.
Exactly.
Now instead of these maximum-performance-tricks being shared (and hence can be found and known by anyone who cares enough to search), any new ones that are found (and they probably will be found) will be hidden away, making understanding of the game even harder.
TF2 has ridiculous, completely unintuitive rocket (and other) jumping techniques, and it is far more awesome for it.
What? I don't even
What's more intuitive than a rocket exploding at your feet sending you flying? Even if you don't think to try it yourself you will see others doing it, and it's overly clear what they're doing. "Buttjumping" is so non-obvious, along with most other NS2 movement tricks, that even if you see other players doing it you most probably won't see what they're actually doing, especially in normal gameplay.
etc...
._.
Regardless, I would have rather seen a speed cap instead. I have a feeling that there is a soft speedcap currently and butt-jump was just bypassing it. Maybe it was easier to just remove it altogether. *shrug
You don't even have to look for better routes because you can accelerate and hold the speed by just spamming space and going through the nearest corner.
I always thought it would be a good idea to reward jumping wall to wall.
Example: A marine rightfully positions himself down a hallway. If you, as skulk, are able to jump down that hallway left wall --> right wall --> left wall --> right wall, that could be given an additional speed boost.
I've been thinking about this too, but not long enough to have a clue what the real consequences would be. But the idea sounds fun, since you'd have to find those walls within reach of an opposing wall etc. Instead of just DURR WALL SPACESPACE....
I even fantasized wall-to-wall jumping giving infinite speed boost, so that you would inevitably mess it up as your skulk reached +20 speed, and then have to start over again. :P
The zigzagging movement made the map navigating more fun. You had to look for routes to get the best angles at high speeds. You couldn't just straight spam space onward if you wanted to go fastest. Also it made possible that you could enter the combat with different speeds thus enabling more angles of attack. Now you are too slow to do that.
I've long been suggesting that we need something novel to replace the concept of bhop. We at least had something almost parallel in the buttjumping mechanic. We missed the boat for introducing a genuinely novel skill-based movement mechanic. That's why it's a shame to find something moderately suitable only to have it removed without, to my mind, decent justification (given that a better cap and communication were all that was required to make this work).
As for the pros of the buttjumping, both good route planning and speed variety were satisfied in older versions of the BT movement, its just much of that speed was gutted to preserve balance. Your entire argument comes down to the skulk being too slow without the movement, which I can agree with, so argue about that.
The fact that people here are really trying to justify the butt jumping mechanic as something that was genuinely skill based is so laughable its actually sad. There was absolutely 0 additional skill required to perform the butt jumping over standard wallhopping, it was 100% game knowledge. By all means continue to delude yourselves about a mechanic you have little understanding of, but at least attempt to have a valid point.
One could definitely argue that learning, planning, and properly executing routes through the map is more skill based than the current boring-as-fuck space spam that we have. The actual mechanic didn't require much more skill though, it's the route planning and execution that makes a difference imo.
I'm fine with this being taken out if skulk speed is buffed, but the removal of this has made me significantly less interested in NS2. This got me excited about the game for the first time in months, now we're back to the boring, slow as shit vanilla wall jump.
I still want the old walljump back though