It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
@CCTEE A rookie mod put on rookie servers could be a viable option, maybe it can satisfy the three parties here. Good idea! I like it.
Rookies could play in a more forgiving (slower) game play. Like a high handicap game for both teams with slightly less damage and/or slightly more health. Geared for practical rookie experimentation, learning, etc.
Or if you wanted to do something
super interesting. Apply these handicaps to players who have rookies mode on.
Which also brings up the conversation about the criteria for graduating rookies based on actions in addition to hours.
Vanilla and Competitive could play with the existing set. So those 2 should be happy. Even though there is a visible difference between 6v6 and 12v12.
The only conflict back then was over a single change, and honestly there was really 1 or 2 vocal people that disagreed with it. However honestly I dont think you remember even which mod I am talking about, I doubt you played it.
Weird that i can count more than 2 clans that were vocal about multiple issues in ns2c. .
But Ok, let's go with "uwe doesn't listen to constructive feedback" anyways.. Even though you're now on their balance team as a result of your efforts.. :rolls eyes:
/derailing
The game is fundamentally balanced wrong for different skill levels. There is no easy solution.
Unfortunately, as much as they have changed, they have still kept many holdovers from the NS1 era that simply do not belong in the modern gaming demographic for player retention.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
Oh so no ns2c wasn't meant for competitive? And no one used it as a platform for demonstrating purposed changes to the vanilla game? .. .. Yeah...
Edit : nice response time eh.. 1 minute? @-)
Got a rainy Sunday; got nothing better to do than remind you why you're wrong so consistently I guess. But atleast you're alert enough to inform me of my response time.
But to your point, no. Hell you don't even know what the fucking c stands for. Which to be fair is irrelevant because ns2c is completely unrelated to the mod in question.
I would call being on a balance team a pretty shit accomplishment with respect to providing feedback if the game's current state is to reflect that feedback. There's only two possibilities that result in significantly differing outcomes.
Either the balance team's feedback is largely irrelevant regardless of the quality / quantity.
Or the feedback is pretty mediocre and incongruent and implemented in varying degrees with a big pinch of salt.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@It's Super Effective!
You do realise it tags rookie status on a local computer setting.
If you reset your settings, your back to rookie.
disabling the switch will do nothing to prevent anyone from enabling rookie status.
So yes, they can abuse it. And incase you go on to link it to your times played on ns2.
Many households may share the same steam login. (atleast thats not unfathomable.) So you'd have the same 'problem' as now for rookies on there brothers game.
Rofl but no ns2c was not ever ment for competitive play, there were other mods developed with the sole intention of keeping the core gameplay as close to vanilla NS2 as possible, while experimenting with other changes - researchable alien abilities, augmentation changes, fade changes, skulk changes, marine movement etc.
@It's Super Effective!
You do realise it tags rookie status on a local computer setting.
If you reset your settings, your back to rookie.
This. It takes less than 15 seconds to reset your total played hours to zero (as far as the game is concerned). Unfortunately you can't ever prevent someone from joining a "rookie only" server because of this. I don't see why people would want to play there, personally, but there's always someone who wants an easy win.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@flamingo
* mentor program
* other servers full
* other servers longterm empty
* to high latency other servers
* admins. (they tend to be players who like to play and thus dont suck as much)
NS 1 started out fun, but not well balanced, and every game played out pretty much the same. It was unable to sustain lasting interest. The first major patch (server+client) was originally known as 1.1, but became so extensive that it was renamed 2.0. It was the "balance test mod" of ns 1; Flayra had worked with the competitive scene to find and fix most of what was wrong with the game and it was much better for it.
Version 2.0 did not play as well in public games as was hoped at first; partly this was teething problems, like players expecting two-hive lockdown and jp + hmg rushing to be the one and only strategy you need, people not knowing how to deal with multiple gorges etc(in NS 1.0x gorges recieved 3x res and were uncapped so they could save up for a hive; if you ever had two gorges, you were pretty much ****ed) and not knowing how to use the new movement options for good effect.
Many people left after 1.04 and never came back; but many more people came and stayed after 2.0. It was a much better game and after thousands of changes, nearly all comparatively minor balance changes, bug fixes and tweaks apart from the introduction of combat mod, it played great in both public and competitive.
I did not play competitive, but if NS v 2.0 had instead been redesigned for random pubbers, none of the changes that needed to happen would have; bunnyhopping would have been yanked instead of improved, air control would likely have been nerfed to hell because it gave a huge edge to player who were competent, the old crappy blink(instant tele) would probably have been kept and fixed(so you don't materialize inside gratings and get stuck) rather than being replaced with the less disorienting higher skill-ceiling version, old crappy lerk-flight would have been kept and improved instead of the new high movement skill version, the fade would have retained it's role as acid-spammer, metabolize would not have been introduced because it would be "too finicky" to keep alternating weapons, perhaps instead keeping bilebomb on the fade. Devour would not have been introduced because it's too unfun(needed against HA trains. NS 2 does not need it, because exo's have significant weaknesses) but maybe would have been fine with tweaks to HA.
It would have been a much different game and not in a good way.
I understand that there are many degrees of skill, but there is an assumption that if you play competitively, you are above a certain threshold. Thus, certain mechanics depend on an assumed skill level in order to be 'balanced'.
For example, armories no longer repairing armor means there is an expectation that the marines will have to be coordinated and attentive enough to weld each other. However, in a casual game on a rookie friendly server, it can be surprisingly difficult to maintain that cohesion. It's very frustrating to be sitting in main base and watching a phase gate go down, knowing you will die instantly if you go through because you haven't been able to get a timely weld. The overall impact on marine survivability can be significant, which in turn affects the overall game balance.
Fades are the most glaring example in my opinion. Any time someone brings up how ridiculously overpowered fades are, there is an immediate violent backlash from competitive players and those who just like racking up their 100-0 KDs. The response that I always see, every time, is that you are supposed to counter with shotguns and 'pinch' to kill a fade. Nevermind that a careful fade simply won't put himself far enough behind enemy lines to get pinched, or the number of marines that are required to counter each fade in play, this tactic requires the marines to by hyper-accurate shotgun surgeons and also display a level of coordination rarely seen in pubs. Fades may be balanced in competitive play, but they are completely broken in casual.
It's easy to say 'Fades are fine, learn to play', but I constantly see merely decent casual players rack up insane kill counts when they fade, but those same players are incapable of killing fades of similar skill when the roles are reversed. The level of skill required to counter fades is too high for most casual players.
I'm sure I'll just get flamed by all the fade apologists now, and as I said I think it needs its own topic. The point is that I recognize skill imbalance and team stacking are separate issues, we are talking about game mechanics and balance that are dependent on an expected level of skill. It's not practical to break the game down to accommodate every point on the scale, but there is a definite divide in the gameplay, strategy, and skill seen in casual and competitive play, and it makes sense for there to be different considerations for each.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@|DFA| Havoc
I still havent seen a single suggestion to 'improve' public play without making it easier for the comp players also.
So instead of sinking res in welders, and probably dying with the rest of there team, lets introduce armor repair so comp players have more res for shotties?
Im very much willing to listen to ideas, but I doubt we can find one which will only boost rookie play.
DFA was around for NS1, we hosted one of the more popular US pub servers, and I don't know a single person from back then who preferred 2.0 to 1.x
2.0 was the beginning of the end for most of the clan, the majority of us moved on to other games by the time 3.0 rolled around. Not everyone feels that the introduction of the godmode fade, devour, and the emphasis on bunnyhopping made for 'great pub play'. Most of the people I know hated it to the point of leaving the game.
I'm confused as to how you are still not understanding.
Let's say, as a theoretical example of what is being proposed, the competitive ruleset would remain unchanged from the current version of the game. Maybe a few minor tweaks based purely on comp player feedback, shotgun damage or ROF is slightly adjusted to make misses more punishing, whatever. I'm sure some comp players would know better what adjustments are needed for their gameplay.
The pub play ruleset would contain a few minor tweaks such as armories repairing armor again, fades doing less damage or having less HP to make them more manageable for players who don't have the exceptional accuracy that comp players do. A few other items could receive slight value adjustments, sentry battery radius perhaps, nothing drastic. The base mechanics of the game would be largely identical, and the changes would be simple to learn and remember, so the transition between gametypes would be trivial to internalize.
That's all we're talking about here. It's like how, for example, WoW has a number of CC abilities with different durations in PVE and PVP combat. PVE-only players were frustrated for many years by having their classes nerfed or revamped for purely PVP reasons, and it was a godsend when Blizzard finally added in a set of dual-values for a small group of relevant abilities to keep both types of play balanced without affecting eachother.
It amazes me that there are such violent kneejerk reactions to such a proposal, it lets everyone have their gameplay balanced around their needs without having to make concessions to the other group. I see essentially no value in the arguments that it would split the community or discourage players from transitioning to competitive play, and my only guess is that comp players who like pubstomping don't want to feel handicapped in any way while they are teaching them noobs a lesson. Rape them into submission boys, it's the only way they will learn!
i have never played an organised game of ns2 and i wouldn't play on some shitty "pub play ruleset" server when there's other servers with the real game on it
So you now speak for 'all us pub players'? As a pub player, I find that laughable.
Regardless, server ops will be free to choose which ruleset they want to run, and all players will be free to choose which servers to play on. If it somehow turns out you're right and the vast majority of the playerbase prefers the comp rules, then the experiment has failed and development continues along a single path once again. I think you would be shocked to find just how small of a minority you are in however.
Comp gameplay is already very different from pub gameplay, which simply serves to disprove the idea that all pub players strive to play the game in the exact same way as the comp players do. If you play on servers with a player cap higher than 12, you are already yourself playing by "some shitty pub ruleset" and not the "real game" that the comp players are playing.
If this solution is to dampen the entry barrier into the game then this is not the right call. Starcraft 2 doesn't split bronze > grand master through mods and splitting the community, it does so with clever design, excellent tutorials and a matchmaking system. Obviously it seems absurd to have MM with a low player count but tbh, UWE has done a drastically terrible job at easing new players into the game.
Sure, this game is difficult for new players and a simple tutorial isn't going to suffice but more effort needs to be done.
The solution to this problem is imo a combination of gradually introducing the player into the meat of the game and if balance changes need to occur, not make them so drastic and have them deeply critically evaluated.
Easing players into the experience is something that many games have done well while NS2 has done terribly, Starcraft as another example uses the following:
1. Basic tutorial or first campaign level
2. Intermediate and advanced tutorials or later campaign levels
3. Challenges
4. Vs AI
5. Unranked 4v4 - etc
6. Ranked 4v4 - 3v3 - 2v2
7. Ranked 1v1
!. A different option - Arcade mode or custom games
Blacklight: Retribution. A more mainstream shooter but still relevant:
1. Tutorial Mode
2. Vs Bots
3. Level 10 or lower servers (main point)
4. Main servers
What NS2 does:
1. Explore, Bots, Hints and Video Tutorials. Since all 4 are lackluster so far, I decided to group them up
2. Jump into a pub game either rookie or normal and be totally overwhelmed.
It's basically like getting thrown into the deep end of a swimming pool as a 5 year old kid with no buoyancy support. You're gonna have a bad time. Starcraft obviously uses a tiered system while Blacklight allows you to experience the game without the interference of higher and more experienced players, actually makes a HUGE difference and this is what I feel we need in NS2.
Rookie only servers, extend rookie up to 10-20 hours (Took me about 15 hours in 1-10 mode in Blacklight). I'd also like to see introduction of some actual tutorials preferably with VO, even if its from Hugh. Possibly make combat an official mode, give it more attention since it is another option for rookie players to jump into without getting nervous or flustered by so much information in the main game. After you've cleared Rookie status, permanently remove the option to re-enable if that's possible.
Obviously this wouldn't fix every issue and may even be too demanding for UWE but having a system like this is impeccable for this game's community to grow.
If you wanted to split the community for the betterment of the game like the OP suggested then you would need a large playerbase to do this effectively without significant risk to the game. Wolf:ET had a pretty large playerbase at it's height and a tonne of mods that completely changed gameplay. Vanilla, Jaymod, ETPro, ETPub and NoQ were the main ones. Jaymod was probably the most popular since it was very pub friendly and completely different from ETPro but it worked.
Personally, my solution to this would be having "rookie" servers with AI commanders.
Assuming AI could end up complex and capable enough for such a feat.
Comments
Rookies could play in a more forgiving (slower) game play. Like a high handicap game for both teams with slightly less damage and/or slightly more health. Geared for practical rookie experimentation, learning, etc.
Or if you wanted to do something
super interesting. Apply these handicaps to players who have rookies mode on.
Which also brings up the conversation about the criteria for graduating rookies based on actions in addition to hours.
Vanilla and Competitive could play with the existing set. So those 2 should be happy. Even though there is a visible difference between 6v6 and 12v12.
The very skilled player who enables it by default to also get the benefit.
There is no way to just boost health/dmg for a rookie without a experienced player being able to take use of it.
And if you slow the game down. What makes you think a experienced player cant still be top in a slower round?
But Ok, let's go with "uwe doesn't listen to constructive feedback" anyways.. Even though you're now on their balance team as a result of your efforts.. :rolls eyes:
/derailing
Unfortunately, as much as they have changed, they have still kept many holdovers from the NS1 era that simply do not belong in the modern gaming demographic for player retention.
Edit : nice response time eh.. 1 minute? @-)
But to your point, no. Hell you don't even know what the fucking c stands for. Which to be fair is irrelevant because ns2c is completely unrelated to the mod in question.
I would call being on a balance team a pretty shit accomplishment with respect to providing feedback if the game's current state is to reflect that feedback. There's only two possibilities that result in significantly differing outcomes.
Either the balance team's feedback is largely irrelevant regardless of the quality / quantity.
Or the feedback is pretty mediocre and incongruent and implemented in varying degrees with a big pinch of salt.
I'm guessing it's the latter.
Not yet my friend, soon B-)
A skilled player won't have rookie status on, so they cannot abuse it. (we're talking about being highlighted green).
And to solidify this, disable the switch in the options menu (not sure why it's even there in the first place)
You do realise it tags rookie status on a local computer setting.
If you reset your settings, your back to rookie.
disabling the switch will do nothing to prevent anyone from enabling rookie status.
So yes, they can abuse it. And incase you go on to link it to your times played on ns2.
Many households may share the same steam login. (atleast thats not unfathomable.) So you'd have the same 'problem' as now for rookies on there brothers game.
This. It takes less than 15 seconds to reset your total played hours to zero (as far as the game is concerned). Unfortunately you can't ever prevent someone from joining a "rookie only" server because of this. I don't see why people would want to play there, personally, but there's always someone who wants an easy win.
* mentor program
* other servers full
* other servers longterm empty
* to high latency other servers
* admins. (they tend to be players who like to play and thus dont suck as much)
NS 1 started out fun, but not well balanced, and every game played out pretty much the same. It was unable to sustain lasting interest. The first major patch (server+client) was originally known as 1.1, but became so extensive that it was renamed 2.0. It was the "balance test mod" of ns 1; Flayra had worked with the competitive scene to find and fix most of what was wrong with the game and it was much better for it.
Version 2.0 did not play as well in public games as was hoped at first; partly this was teething problems, like players expecting two-hive lockdown and jp + hmg rushing to be the one and only strategy you need, people not knowing how to deal with multiple gorges etc(in NS 1.0x gorges recieved 3x res and were uncapped so they could save up for a hive; if you ever had two gorges, you were pretty much ****ed) and not knowing how to use the new movement options for good effect.
Many people left after 1.04 and never came back; but many more people came and stayed after 2.0. It was a much better game and after thousands of changes, nearly all comparatively minor balance changes, bug fixes and tweaks apart from the introduction of combat mod, it played great in both public and competitive.
I did not play competitive, but if NS v 2.0 had instead been redesigned for random pubbers, none of the changes that needed to happen would have; bunnyhopping would have been yanked instead of improved, air control would likely have been nerfed to hell because it gave a huge edge to player who were competent, the old crappy blink(instant tele) would probably have been kept and fixed(so you don't materialize inside gratings and get stuck) rather than being replaced with the less disorienting higher skill-ceiling version, old crappy lerk-flight would have been kept and improved instead of the new high movement skill version, the fade would have retained it's role as acid-spammer, metabolize would not have been introduced because it would be "too finicky" to keep alternating weapons, perhaps instead keeping bilebomb on the fade. Devour would not have been introduced because it's too unfun(needed against HA trains. NS 2 does not need it, because exo's have significant weaknesses) but maybe would have been fine with tweaks to HA.
It would have been a much different game and not in a good way.
1.04 was hugely imbalanced.
2.x did better.
3.x was finally in a very good place.
NS1 needed 3 big, very big changes.
SO far compared, ns2 had one. (as far as I know, ina non beta)
For example, armories no longer repairing armor means there is an expectation that the marines will have to be coordinated and attentive enough to weld each other. However, in a casual game on a rookie friendly server, it can be surprisingly difficult to maintain that cohesion. It's very frustrating to be sitting in main base and watching a phase gate go down, knowing you will die instantly if you go through because you haven't been able to get a timely weld. The overall impact on marine survivability can be significant, which in turn affects the overall game balance.
Fades are the most glaring example in my opinion. Any time someone brings up how ridiculously overpowered fades are, there is an immediate violent backlash from competitive players and those who just like racking up their 100-0 KDs. The response that I always see, every time, is that you are supposed to counter with shotguns and 'pinch' to kill a fade. Nevermind that a careful fade simply won't put himself far enough behind enemy lines to get pinched, or the number of marines that are required to counter each fade in play, this tactic requires the marines to by hyper-accurate shotgun surgeons and also display a level of coordination rarely seen in pubs. Fades may be balanced in competitive play, but they are completely broken in casual.
It's easy to say 'Fades are fine, learn to play', but I constantly see merely decent casual players rack up insane kill counts when they fade, but those same players are incapable of killing fades of similar skill when the roles are reversed. The level of skill required to counter fades is too high for most casual players.
I'm sure I'll just get flamed by all the fade apologists now, and as I said I think it needs its own topic. The point is that I recognize skill imbalance and team stacking are separate issues, we are talking about game mechanics and balance that are dependent on an expected level of skill. It's not practical to break the game down to accommodate every point on the scale, but there is a definite divide in the gameplay, strategy, and skill seen in casual and competitive play, and it makes sense for there to be different considerations for each.
I still havent seen a single suggestion to 'improve' public play without making it easier for the comp players also.
So instead of sinking res in welders, and probably dying with the rest of there team, lets introduce armor repair so comp players have more res for shotties?
Im very much willing to listen to ideas, but I doubt we can find one which will only boost rookie play.
DFA was around for NS1, we hosted one of the more popular US pub servers, and I don't know a single person from back then who preferred 2.0 to 1.x
2.0 was the beginning of the end for most of the clan, the majority of us moved on to other games by the time 3.0 rolled around. Not everyone feels that the introduction of the godmode fade, devour, and the emphasis on bunnyhopping made for 'great pub play'. Most of the people I know hated it to the point of leaving the game.
I believe the suggestion is to have a separate version/ruleset so that changes made on behalf of pubbers doesn't affect the comp players.
Yes... which rules. I do not believe rules exist which do not effect comp players.
public play suffers because the game is balanced around marines actually having a clue about what to do and being able to hit a target
Exactly what could change in NS2: Competitive vs. NS2: Pub?
What can you really change to make "two separate versions of the game for both Pub and Comp"
I subscribe to "the game is balanced, or it isn't."
I'm confused as to how you are still not understanding.
Let's say, as a theoretical example of what is being proposed, the competitive ruleset would remain unchanged from the current version of the game. Maybe a few minor tweaks based purely on comp player feedback, shotgun damage or ROF is slightly adjusted to make misses more punishing, whatever. I'm sure some comp players would know better what adjustments are needed for their gameplay.
The pub play ruleset would contain a few minor tweaks such as armories repairing armor again, fades doing less damage or having less HP to make them more manageable for players who don't have the exceptional accuracy that comp players do. A few other items could receive slight value adjustments, sentry battery radius perhaps, nothing drastic. The base mechanics of the game would be largely identical, and the changes would be simple to learn and remember, so the transition between gametypes would be trivial to internalize.
That's all we're talking about here. It's like how, for example, WoW has a number of CC abilities with different durations in PVE and PVP combat. PVE-only players were frustrated for many years by having their classes nerfed or revamped for purely PVP reasons, and it was a godsend when Blizzard finally added in a set of dual-values for a small group of relevant abilities to keep both types of play balanced without affecting eachother.
It amazes me that there are such violent kneejerk reactions to such a proposal, it lets everyone have their gameplay balanced around their needs without having to make concessions to the other group. I see essentially no value in the arguments that it would split the community or discourage players from transitioning to competitive play, and my only guess is that comp players who like pubstomping don't want to feel handicapped in any way while they are teaching them noobs a lesson. Rape them into submission boys, it's the only way they will learn!
And this would not be a problem, because there would be servers running the comp rules for you to play on.
So you now speak for 'all us pub players'? As a pub player, I find that laughable.
Regardless, server ops will be free to choose which ruleset they want to run, and all players will be free to choose which servers to play on. If it somehow turns out you're right and the vast majority of the playerbase prefers the comp rules, then the experiment has failed and development continues along a single path once again. I think you would be shocked to find just how small of a minority you are in however.
Comp gameplay is already very different from pub gameplay, which simply serves to disprove the idea that all pub players strive to play the game in the exact same way as the comp players do. If you play on servers with a player cap higher than 12, you are already yourself playing by "some shitty pub ruleset" and not the "real game" that the comp players are playing.
Sure, this game is difficult for new players and a simple tutorial isn't going to suffice but more effort needs to be done.
The solution to this problem is imo a combination of gradually introducing the player into the meat of the game and if balance changes need to occur, not make them so drastic and have them deeply critically evaluated.
Easing players into the experience is something that many games have done well while NS2 has done terribly, Starcraft as another example uses the following:
1. Basic tutorial or first campaign level
2. Intermediate and advanced tutorials or later campaign levels
3. Challenges
4. Vs AI
5. Unranked 4v4 - etc
6. Ranked 4v4 - 3v3 - 2v2
7. Ranked 1v1
!. A different option - Arcade mode or custom games
Blacklight: Retribution. A more mainstream shooter but still relevant:
1. Tutorial Mode
2. Vs Bots
3. Level 10 or lower servers (main point)
4. Main servers
What NS2 does:
1. Explore, Bots, Hints and Video Tutorials. Since all 4 are lackluster so far, I decided to group them up
2. Jump into a pub game either rookie or normal and be totally overwhelmed.
It's basically like getting thrown into the deep end of a swimming pool as a 5 year old kid with no buoyancy support. You're gonna have a bad time. Starcraft obviously uses a tiered system while Blacklight allows you to experience the game without the interference of higher and more experienced players, actually makes a HUGE difference and this is what I feel we need in NS2.
Rookie only servers, extend rookie up to 10-20 hours (Took me about 15 hours in 1-10 mode in Blacklight). I'd also like to see introduction of some actual tutorials preferably with VO, even if its from Hugh. Possibly make combat an official mode, give it more attention since it is another option for rookie players to jump into without getting nervous or flustered by so much information in the main game. After you've cleared Rookie status, permanently remove the option to re-enable if that's possible.
Obviously this wouldn't fix every issue and may even be too demanding for UWE but having a system like this is impeccable for this game's community to grow.
If you wanted to split the community for the betterment of the game like the OP suggested then you would need a large playerbase to do this effectively without significant risk to the game. Wolf:ET had a pretty large playerbase at it's height and a tonne of mods that completely changed gameplay. Vanilla, Jaymod, ETPro, ETPub and NoQ were the main ones. Jaymod was probably the most popular since it was very pub friendly and completely different from ETPro but it worked.
Assuming AI could end up complex and capable enough for such a feat.