Rookie tag really needs to be reworked
ns2isgood
Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members
Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members
The rookie friendly tag is the reason why this game loses it's playerbase, IMO. Pair the high learning curve and getting repeatedly stomped by vets, it doesn't give a great first impression. Rookies need to have dedicated servers available for ONLY ROOKIES for at least the first 20-40 hours, once you're out of the hour range, you can no longer join the server. Appoint groups of community vet members that are allowed in to help.
Look at just a few examples and mind you, this don't cover the surface. There are tons of similar topics:
Look at just a few examples and mind you, this don't cover the surface. There are tons of similar topics:
It's misleading, it's as simple as that. New players often get the impression that it's a server for rookies only, but they are pleasantly surprised when it's a stacked team of experienced players continuously rolling one team. I often see new players asking or complaining about it in the chat.
Even if they do understand the true meaning of the tag, 100% of the time it isn't even rookie friendly, despite being labeled so! I can't count how many times I've seen some new player get chewed out over the mic because he did something wrong or tried commanding on a "rookie friendly" server. I've never see any admins step in and do anything about it. You occasionally get a nice person to step up and say something, but it's rare.
There needs to be certain servers that can only be accessed by players with low hours. If they want to get fancy they can give access to certain community members that can be mentors/guides and help the noobs learn. Noob players often get stomped and berated in normal pubs, it's probably why this game can't hold a decent playerbase.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ns2/comments/1gihb9/get_rid_of_the_rookie_friendly_tag/
For the past 12 games, I've been completely dominated by teams of non-rookies on rookie servers. I've really loved the concept of this game but when you are new and you go up against a team of people with 900+ hours played game after game it's seriously making me want to quit.
Is there any way to get a game with rookies and ROOKIES FUCKING ONLY?
http://www.reddit.com/r/ns2/comments/1jy9az/can_we_please_for_the_love_of_god_be_friendly_to/
Rookie servers should have rookies only. FFS we have teams of people just playing to destroy the rookies. I am 3-15 right now. I AM NOT HAVING ANY FUN. Bad execution if this game is just fulla people who only play this game I will not be purchasing it. What a waste of a weekend game jesus bring Ace of Spades back at least it wasnt full of trolls just pciking on people learning. Rookie servers my ♥♥♥.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/4920/discussions/0/810919691059068089/#c810919691071765933
No but seriously I've been trying to play fun games and get the hang of it again but I keep getting skulks and marines going like 80:2. Then they try to argue that they aren't rookie farming. You joined a bright green server that says "Rookie Friendly." Don't play dumb.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ns2/comments/12fmyo/anyone_tired_of_the_rookie_farming_yet/
It's so hard, I go into a game and spend every round getting solo'd by a skulk when i have a shotgun, or solo'd by a marine when im a skulk. I literally cant do anything other than round round the map and run extractors/or destroy them. Is there a way to play with other people that are completely new? it really sucks playing against so many good players on a rookie server.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ns2/comments/1dl06a/this_game_not_noob_friendly/
When I first started playing this game.....I thought it was great. Now I'm to the point I have to force myself to play it. I play on ROOKIE servers only because I'm a rookie at this game. Unfortunately it seems alot of impatient, loud mouthed jackasses tend to play on rookie servers too
http://steamcommunity.com/app/4920/discussions/0/846943514202699820/
Joined two different "Newbie Friendly" servers, knowing I wouldn't be able to keep up on a real server due to lack of general knowledge. Immediately got ♥♥♥♥♥ed out via mic on BOTH SERVERS for not running directly to a room that I didn't even know the name of because I haven't played since like the week after launch.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/4920/discussions/0/810921273862691948/
Oh and the rookie servers are traps. Half newbies, half vets to prey on them...
http://steamcommunity.com/app/4920/discussions/search/?q=rookie&p=3
Comments
There are to few not 24slot not rookie servers as is. Also if a rookie thinks he/she is ready and joins a nonrookie they will get shredded.
It also will make any mentor program useless as mentors can not join.
its not rookies & experienced players. its:
* rookie
* still rookie but thinks pro, the so called 'pros'.
* real experienced players
* division 3
* division 2
* division 1
On average any of the group can destroy the one with lower skill, so you would need 6 server tags instead of 2 where we dont have the population for.
Agreed with OP in general. Make the rookie cap 100hrs or so, then just reduce/increase number of servers depending on how full they get.
Don't need mentors really. Let 'em figure out the game. It's not rocket science.
What? Please restructure your sentences, I can't follow what you're trying to depict.
Anyway, the one thing I want to say is that even on rookie friendly servers, a rookie is fine and a first time com is fine, but a rookie first time com is NOT.
And naturally I disagree on the 'no mentors needed'.
Yes we need more turotials and yes the rookie tag should last longer.
@ns2isgood.
You may think that this game as 2 groups. Rookie players and nonrookie players. That is not the case. There are far more splits then that.
1) you have your 100% new rookies.
2) you have your so called pro players who are in reality still rookie. They know more then a complete newbie and can generally do better, but on the skill ladder they are on the low end.
3) then you have the experienced pug player. These can already stomp many in pugs.
4) Then you have competitive play devision 3. Many but not all are very capable of crushing even a experienced pug player.
5) Then you have division 2.
6) division 1 is filled with the top of ns2 skill level.
Most of those on that list who think rookie friendly servers should contain only rookies are from group 1.
Group 2 also belongs on rookie servers.
3 and above, unless mentorring do there best to play on nonrookie but thats hardly possible. If I go in ns2 now, refresh the server list then its almost only green OR 24 slot servers.. which are filled with more newbies then rookie servers.
many experienced puggers may scream comp players shouldnt be on a rookie server but they should.. where is the line?
The ns2 playerbase is to small to fit in so many groups and the line between rookie and nonrookie is to scewed to warrent the massive amount of rookie servers we have now.
I see what you're saying, but the 4-6 on your list are very rare to come by, even in other games that are more populated. You're mostly going to be dealing with 1-3 on your list, and I would say those groups make up over 90% of the playerbase (if I had to rough guesstimate).
They shouldn't. The line is simple:
Are you under X hours?
Yes -> here is access to regular servers and a few rookie only servers
No -> here is access to the server list, sorry you can't access rookie only servers unless you're an appointed mentor
You don't need to fit it into any groups besides inexperienced and experienced. Simple as that.
This would greatly improve regular pubs while giving new players a place to get a feel for things. Every rookie friendly server is always around 3-4 guys at the top with K/D ratio of like 40-2, while everyone on the bottom is like 1-7, 2-10, 0-5, 2-13, etc. The new players don't need to be forced into rookie only servers, just give them the option and let them decide for themselves.
Remove the stupid Rookie-friendly feature/label and just have 1-2 unkown worlds official rookie only servers. If they get popular, add more. Every server would be white on the list with 1-2 green that are official rookie only.
While pretty much every comp player will choose playing scrims over pug, there will be days when they only have pugs because there is no scrim. Comp players in general love ns2 just as much as any pugger or even more. The asumption that they would not pug is very wrong.
But im very sure a large portion if not all of the comp players play ns2.
The biggest problem is not the rookietag. The utmost big problem is a severe lack of 18/20 slot non modified NS2 nonrookie servers around.
Most are either a clusterf of 24 slots, run mods which are game changing, or are rookie servers.
lol'd
Rookies are on rookie server experienced are on normal servers. No further split in EU.
And naturally I don't see why you naturally disagree with no mentors needed.
Again, no such problem in EU. And as such, can't see anything to oppose OP's idea.
If the servers are so messed up in some places, like wherever DC_Darkling hails from, just leave them as they are and impose the limit where you can afford? No problem here, surely?
right now on peak I have 6 servers non rookie below 20 player max.
3 of those are remotely willing to communicate in english to have some sort of nice match. (I cant understant ascrap with like french players, even if they try to use ns terms, because of the accent. Unless they speak english)
Thats at peak. most of the time, it is no peak.
naturally i would disagree with we not needed mentors because im part of the mentor program.
The game itself does not explain a lot of stuff like fade movement.
What does any of this have to do with rookie servers? You mean you have to go on rookie servers because of this? You - have - got - to - be - kidding - me. If that's not the case, what then?
Fade movement is pretty advanced, if you meant the hopping stuff. Is pretty easy to learn all the basics without anyone behind your shoulder. And remember, even though there's 16 rookies, chances are ONE OF THEM has watched a tutorial or asked a friend. So they can learn from eachother.
No im not kidding you. If there are no nonfull servers below 24 slots with ok latency and not super modded then yes, rookie servers.
Thankfully I try to pick the worst jobs for me so I dont own em to much.
yes I seed servers, yes I join servers with very few folk playing. Still way to many greens
So yeah. I'm still for this idea.
dont get me wrong though. Im against stacking as much as anyone. But thats not limited to rookie only
>watch 2 skulks kill myself and the entire TSF team multiple times
It's like you want people to not play the game after they've bought it.
The whole 'sorting the wheat from the chaff' method of training is bull, you're just losing all of the new players on account of the game not being fun via merciless vets on pubstomping agendas.
Rooks need rook-only servers, to keep vets and 'mentors' who only applied for a rookie-hunting permit out.
While I'm sure there a few good souls who genuinely want to teach, there aren't enough to justify the current system.
I find it incredible that 2 skulks can stomp so hard. Maybe the marine team had absolutely no teamwork or couldn't aim for shit. Though I agree that noobs need time to learn the game sense and what is necessary to win, noobs will never learn the skill of shooting if they only play against other noob ground skulks. Any no brain idiot can kill skulks that come head on straight at you on the ground.
I self taught myself how to play the game from release. I sucked at fps and couldn't hit anything (always had huge neg k/d). However after playing a lot with pug'ers at first then other competitive players I learned how to. Yes, sometimes you get sick of being killed so easy, but you learn from your mistakes and don't do them again. I fully believe that in order to really improve and become good at the game you need to play against people that are really better than you. People really need to see this because no one gets better by playing against people of equal of lesser skill than you.
As such I completely agree with DC's idea of the necessity of mentors. Playing against or with people that are better than you makes you better. Period.
I can not speak for all, but all mentors I know are not.
We often pick support roles, slow down, do not pick upgrades etc in order to not steamroll over new players as much as we can.
Any newbie getting to easily killed is told why and how & how to prevent. Ive especially been doing this on free weekends which basicly means nothing but rookies with almost the whole server in greens.
DO they complain I wreck them while going as slow as I can?
Some yes, but the large proportion is very thankful of the explenations and I saw newbies who had the game installed 30 mins play better then many puggers playing for weeks just with a few words of explanation.
Yes its in the hands of the mentor to not go on a pubstomp but try to take it slow and I can happily say % wise, its going well.
You base your opinion on no need for mentors on whos experience?
I base mine on countless hours of almost complete rookie filled servers and the amount of unhappy players ingame about this, who complained or left server, I can count on 1 hand.
Through your logic, no one would ever get good at games, as no one starts off with experience. The first people to play a game learn it by playing against other inexperienced players.
Rooks don't need to get pummeled to learn how to pummel, this isn't Fight Club.
They need time, and games/hours played to develop their skills. This can easily be accomplished without people willing to take advantage of them in order to pad their K/D.
DC, you seem like a decent person, and I commend you for your efforts.
That being said, all those 20/2 and up players in 'rookie friendly' servers would show that the average players cares very little about training the next new batch of playersas much as smacking them around a bit, as most gamers play FPSs solely to enjoy themselves through simulated violence and kills. Unfortunately, whether the kills were competitive or not usually isn't of concern. I myself know that there is satisfaction to be had in crushing unskilled opponents, even if it isn't necessarily 'right' or honorable to do so, and I don't think you can argue against that.
The idea of mentors was created to counter the presence of rook-stomping vets in rook servers, which led to anger and complaints from new players in the first place.
Remove both of them, set up rook-only servers for the new guys to cut their teeth and work their shooting/jumping chops on, and you've nearly *edit*solved*/edit* the problem.
People are always going to be better than you as an individual. Where they learned it is normally from other people that were better than them. I don't care or rightly know who the first "experienced" person was that started it, but what it comes down to is you need someone that is better than you to teach you what to do and what not to do. This has been a universal truth in almost every part of the world. Coaches, trainers, mentors, teachers, and tutors are all real world examples of this principle. Only the best trained with the best. Same is true in video games.
It wouldn't stop anyone so wanting from joining a regular server and "learning from getting 0-30'd".
While it would give a much smoother start into a decently complex game that has NO PROPER TUTORIAL.
Also, I'd like to make a point that getting owned is NOT the optimal way to learn. Optimal way to learn would be to play against people who are better than you. Not against people who completely annihilate you. Because A: You don't learn anything if you haven't the chance to try anything B: Nobody will stick around watching that.
Those quotes you listed do not surprise me, I'm assuming they never grew up on Quake, UT, Wolfenstein, Brood War. They might be young or old, but their gaming experience would be from Battlefield / CoD4+ or something equally as bad.
If you want rookie only servers, the game would die over night. The vets who made this game possible (aka pre-ordering for a game that by all accounts would actually never come out) would simply not be able to play anymore. You wouldn't even be able to fill a server with vets... there isn't enough left of them.
I couldn't agree more, getting stomped means you learn to try to avoid getting stomped. most vets still playing started at the bottom.of the ladder, and climbed their way up through the ownage. this rookie vs bet problem is by no means new,and for asure not new to this game. I've been garbage to middling garbage at most of the games I've ever played, but some skills translate between games. in any good game I know, those with 30 hours should expect to get stomped by those with 300, and those by those with 3000. segregating rookies to their own server only serves to.make them suck longer. this game really thrives on team coordination, which is really rare on low level and on high man pubs because it's largely unnecessary.
I was on a rookie server the other day, and one of the newer players was saying how the other marines had good aim, and I just laughed and told him, no they don't have good aim, they have okay aim, I knew.because I could take kills off them one v one without ambushing them. good aim means I'm risking my life to get a para on them so my other buddy can flank.and hopefully get two bites before he gets shot in the face. good aim means skulks are relegated to structure dps when shotguns come out.
that rookie is always going to assume that a pack of ground skulks is effective until he meets someone that can wipe out 3 of then without taking a hit, then he's going to learn that jumping makes a difference and hop like a bunny until he learns that you need to ambush to get the bites in, then hes finally going to realize the value of parasite earlygame. finally the value of coordination. but he'll learn none of this until groundskulking and the marine equivalent are no longer viable.
My point exactly... Yes getting owned sucks, but it's a right of passage. It teaches you how to play by making you want to do better. Now I understand some people want that insta-gratification that comes from getting kills, but until they learn that ground skulking or running into an obvious ambush isn't going to get them those kills they need to learn from being killed. We "pro" players join servers to have fun playing a game we love, not to kill noobs... but when they throw themselves at us one at a time, ground skulk after fucking ground skulk, what do you expect us to do? Even using pistol only a competent marine can handle that. And yes, when they do it over and over again I always tell them not to and how they should be playing skulk, but in the end it's up to them. From my experience nothing is as good as a learning experience than failure. Most of us still playing today were noobs at one point and we all got owned constantly. Why haven't we left? Why are we still here? Because we eventually got better from being owned. NS2 is a hard game with a big learning curve, this we know, and I know some people just like to pub stomp, but the majority are here to make the community better. Excluding us is only going to hurt that same community we worked so hard to build.
@Mestaritonttu I like that idea of including in-depth tutorials on not only basic stuff like game play, but also movement and others stuff, but tutorials are not all inclusive, and they can't teach you how to shoot or attack as alien. Those skills come from playing with people better than you (and yes on occasion getting owned), but then learning over time. In the end new people leaving comes down to their lack of want or desire to climb that steep learning curve. They're perfectly content with remaining noob forever, and then complain when someone still is killing them too much.
http://www.hbz-clan.de/player.php