Skulk - "Sneak Attack damage".
ablueman
Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188045Members
Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188045Members
Hi,
Apologies if this is a well covered subject but I feel like it needs covering and couldnt find on a brief search anything mentioning what im thinking.
Skulk are all about sneaking up and biting things. Currently although im reaonably good with skulk I feel mid-game they are weak especially with shotgun/jetpack and other mid game combinations.
But all the way through any game, I dont feel like there is enough focus on sneak damage.
Whether I sneak find a nice spot to drop on an unsuspecting marine or whether I charge in like a skulk noob bouncing all over the shop, I still need 3 bites or more bites
I feel there should be some bonus to bites from behind or dropping on a marine.
There are lots of ways this could be implimented.
My favorite, and the least likely to require long distance changes is to link the damage to the phantom ability. Shift and walk up to someone bite their ass and 1 hit kill. Make it so that dropping does not effect phantom and 1 or 2 bite kill.
Its dissapointing to do what a skulk should be doing getting the ambush but then just getting someone escape between bites 2-3 and shooting you out of reach. I did a good job sneaking up on him. He "should" be dead.
There are other alternatives which would require more work the classic sneak attack damage which might require "detected" mechanics, however there may be something already in place that can be utilised that im not aware of.
Basically though .. Id like to see more damage for attacks that the marine is not expecting, this shouldnt affect proper marine gameplay. If you are working as a team of even 2 and entering rooms properly this shouldnt affect you.
If your running and gunning alone and not checking rooms properly then your going to get taken out fast and hard. This should also solve the mid game skulk flop and allow you to still get kills that you should get, especially if linked to phantom which you can or should get mid game. It would also add a little value to the commanders pinging rooms.
I cant see any 'real' drawbacks to the idea. Perhaps a little rin whining, but please if you have constructive critisism of the idea. hit me.
Thanks
Andy
Apologies if this is a well covered subject but I feel like it needs covering and couldnt find on a brief search anything mentioning what im thinking.
Skulk are all about sneaking up and biting things. Currently although im reaonably good with skulk I feel mid-game they are weak especially with shotgun/jetpack and other mid game combinations.
But all the way through any game, I dont feel like there is enough focus on sneak damage.
Whether I sneak find a nice spot to drop on an unsuspecting marine or whether I charge in like a skulk noob bouncing all over the shop, I still need 3 bites or more bites
I feel there should be some bonus to bites from behind or dropping on a marine.
There are lots of ways this could be implimented.
My favorite, and the least likely to require long distance changes is to link the damage to the phantom ability. Shift and walk up to someone bite their ass and 1 hit kill. Make it so that dropping does not effect phantom and 1 or 2 bite kill.
Its dissapointing to do what a skulk should be doing getting the ambush but then just getting someone escape between bites 2-3 and shooting you out of reach. I did a good job sneaking up on him. He "should" be dead.
There are other alternatives which would require more work the classic sneak attack damage which might require "detected" mechanics, however there may be something already in place that can be utilised that im not aware of.
Basically though .. Id like to see more damage for attacks that the marine is not expecting, this shouldnt affect proper marine gameplay. If you are working as a team of even 2 and entering rooms properly this shouldnt affect you.
If your running and gunning alone and not checking rooms properly then your going to get taken out fast and hard. This should also solve the mid game skulk flop and allow you to still get kills that you should get, especially if linked to phantom which you can or should get mid game. It would also add a little value to the commanders pinging rooms.
I cant see any 'real' drawbacks to the idea. Perhaps a little rin whining, but please if you have constructive critisism of the idea. hit me.
Thanks
Andy
Comments
Not to mention how frustrating it is for the marine to get insta-gibbed.
Ambushing marines gives you already the reward that you don't need to get into melee distance under fire.
You also get one bite free. That's more than enough reward just for hanging on a ceiling at the right time.
If you really want that kill, than you have to show some skill while battling with the marine.
I think this is fair for both teams and also a fun game mechanic.
At least more fun than: "Oh you didn't check that corner? Too bad. Free kill!"
I actually agree about the instagib perhaps 2-3 bites then rather than 3-4 or whatever.
The issue isnt about closing with a target its about getting 1 bite off then seeing him float away as you get a second bite and not being able to get near him to get the last bite. thats not about skill ... apart from me then running to a wall up it and over him then dropping on him again.. just not really feasable and shows no skill on his part just jetpack.
I realise this is not a real life kinda game but.. if you were a marine in an alien infested area, wouldnt you expect to die if you didnt look around.. this is also another reason to link the damage to phantom so its part of the games natural progression.
I appreciate your comments, but i dont feel this would be a big buff. The extra damage does not have to be major and I feel it promotes the right way of playing a skulk. Increases the use of both Shadow Hive and Marine commander pinging rooms especially when the power is out.
If your a lone marine and your worried about the 1 corner you might miss. Get the commander to ping the room. Or get someone else with you.
Boost the Damage by 5 and you will still need 3 Bites for a W0 Marine, so you gain nothing. Increase it by 10 and you kill a Marine with 2 Bites. From 3 to 2 Bites, while the first bite is more or less free (as you ambush). This would be an extreme buff for the Skulk.
According to NS2 stats right now in build 255 (with mods) there is a win percentage of about 58% for aliens (out of 492 matches).
Even in nearly every previous build (despite the brick-skulk-build) aliens where imbalanced. They always got a higher win-percentage. Some builds even to 75%. I really don't think they need a buff. From my experience the skulk vs marine battle in the early game is pretty much balanced. Even with the (by some) dreaded strafe jump.
Your still saying its a guarenteed boost. It shouldnt be if marines are working together and looking around. The only time this would boost the damage is if you manage to ambush someone. If you manage to ambush someone either they are not doing what they should be or deserve to die as a result of a good ambush.
Bare in mind the 'time' it takes to get 3-4 bites off .. its plenty of time for a jetpacker to get out of range.
This is very theoretical. How will you do it? Will you give the skulk increased damage when it hits the marine from behind? How will you get sure, that the skulks doesn't get this advantage in a frantic melee battle when he is turning around the marine fast?
There are also times where marines need to run to a specific location. In this situations it would be highly frustrating by getting (nearly) insta-killed just because you didn't checked every corner / ceiling.
Looking in every corner may sound good in theory. But in a real match, it will get boring very fast. And if you only miss it 1 time, you can be dead nearly instantly. That simply isn't fun. It will make the gameplay very slow and stale.
Then you would get the commander to ping and listen if your running at full tilt you would hear something running up behind you and if its an ambush .. then your going to get ambushed. thats the price for running in blind.
Appreciated, again .. doesnt have to be instakilled though and it shouldnt slow anyone down it takes seconds to look up.. if your not looking up .. you deserve to die
You already get the bonus of one free bite. It's not that hard to kill a marine afterwards. So you don't need a bonus of 2 free Bites. (which a damage bonus defacto is.)
Again I cant help but feel you are misinterpreting the mechanic. This isnt something where someone will get lagged and suddenly get gibbed. This is only damage where someone is actually ambushed.
If your ambushed my opinion is that you should get killed in 2-3 bites rather than 3-4. not instantly, but quick enough that midgame they cant escape so easily.
While I agree that the OP's idea wouldn't work, I have to say that it's still frustrating for aliens to get insta-gibbed by multiple marine weapons without having any way to do the same or avoid it. Why is it ok for marines to not be one shot, but not aliens?
I dont agree, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think if your silly enough to be ambushed you dont deserve the chance to escape and float up and shoot the person that ambushed you. 3-4 bites with a rin either hopping all over the shop spraying and / or jetpacking away gives too many oppotunities for a rin to escape his rightful demise
But then we appear to both be biased to our relevant class.
This is a good point. How frustrating is it as an alien to get instagibbed when he has made it all the way to the other side of the map.
Your not actually saying why you feel the original idea wouldnt work however?
I do honestly appreciate that its not something easy to impliment or get right. as is the case with ANY change to a game mechanic. However this "should" be fairly small if rins work the way they should, and aliens would work more the way they should. I dont see the problem.
Shotgun = 1 - 2 shots at close range mid game.
Also people bare in mind that I have suggested this be linked to a skill most often taken mid game .. not straight away.
The game can not distinguish between an ambush attack and a non ambush attack from behind.
If I fight a skulk, and a second one jumps in, and gets his first bite in my back. Why should he get an ambush bonus? Or if I ran into two skulks attack one of them and the seconds leaps over me and bites me in the back. Why should he get an ambush bonus?
EDIT:
I play Skulk, most of the time
If you listen as a marien you can tell when a skulk just got into position on the other side of a door, so you crouch and slowly go through looking up.... Then bang 13 bullets into a skulk before you even register on their screen. Gotta love it when one skulk gives away another by running up next to the first, so many double kills when I didn't even see the second skulk (oh pubs)...
This is why I hide behind objects and start shift walking long before I find a hiding place...
Explain to me how phantom works then? If you bite you wont go invisible for a while there is obviously a mechanic this could link in to that changes the time until the next possible "sneak attack" if you run, you are also visible and detectable and therefore not going to get the sneak attack bonus. This in itself will stop someone getting a sneak attack bonus in a fight. You cant get behind someone wait until phantom kicks in then bite him ...
There is also a mechanic where you are visible on the map that this could also link in to.
If either of those conditions show you as visible, you dont get the attack bonus im sure there are other mechanics or conditions that this could link in to to give the sneak attack bonus but not just for getting around the back of someone or it being lag affected. But still give the skulk a bonus for sneak attack or ambush where they have succedded in ambushing.
This adds value to the Observatory and commander scanning things which dont really get used perhaps as much as they should. Any major point that people are trying to capture should get a scan or observatory therefore no ambushes.
Im not looking to give an all round bonus to damage, there are options there and ways of doing this, im just providing an idea on something that coud be viable and I still cant see any real down sides that cant be overcome.
You say the game cant distinguish between a sneak attack and one that isnt. I believe with a little bit of intelligent coding that this is exactly what it could do in theory
I do wonder how the mechanic for the aliens being spotted on the map works and if this could be linked in to that. I will have to look in to it.
If you tie this to the slow movement of camouflage it gets totaly useless. (you always run the last few steps ... or mostly the marine would just walk away)
tieing it to the mini map appearance could do it. But I don't know how they exactly work, too. But I often see Skulks on the map, I didn't see on my screen. So I don't know if this would be a good solution. (And it maybe result in ridiculously 360° turns in every room to at least deny the ambush bonus even if i have no chance really to _see_ anyone)
But nevertheless. I still don't see a reason or a necessary at all why an ambushing skulk should receive any bonus. Ambushing is already very rewarding, as you get more or less one free bite and you are in melee range from the begin of the fight, where the skulk has his natural advantage.
If you successfully sneak up from behind, you have not earned yourself a guaranteed kill. You have bought yourself an advantage, because you have dealt damage before your opponent even has a chance to respond. Your odds of winning that fight have gone up significantly. But you still need to finish the job. Engaging from a good position is part of the battle, but not the whole thing.
There also is lag compensation and interpolation that make up for a time difference of up to 250ms between two clients. So if you bite the first time, you got about 250ms before the marine can notice it and does react on your screen. Hence why we talking of an insta-kill with 2 bites.
The lagcomp is also what makes jp's so hard to catch: You cant block their movement by gettin in their way. They will just move right through you because you would have to block their way in the reality of their pc not on yours.
Facestabs in TF2 comes to mind.
Again your missing the previous comments, im aware of parasite, but this 1) negates the idea of ambushing as your prewarning someone and 2) is not going to cut it in middle game where I feel the skulk starts to struggle and where I feel Ambush should enable you to get kills from marines where they have armour2/3 and jetpacks.
Please dont make assumptions about how long ive been playing, just because I made this forum account today doesnt mean that thats how long Ive been playing.
The problem is I often find myself sat on the back of a marine pushing forward chomping for all im worth and he still floats up in the air and gets out of range. If im running in to his legs at full pelt chomping and i cant keep up and he floats away im not sure how you can say that skill is a factor.
Trust me if It was just me being a noob I wouldnt have thought this much about it .. I dont have a problem getting jetpack kills with a fade.
Your argument makes no real sense. If he hears you, you wouldnt get the damage anyway .. your running or doing something that would negate the bonus anyway.
The point is your either shift walking up on a standing still target or dropping on him undetected and again .. if I ambush someone and chomp as fast as i can running forward in to his legs and he can still have time to float away then there is something wrong with the mechanic.
Under these circumstances I get kills early on in the game but not later on, its not a skill issue its an issue where they get to escape to somewhere unreachable to a skulk when they should be dead.
In the mid-game the skulk should already have Leap to counter jet-packers. The higher armor of marines is supposed to be countered by the health increase through biomass.
At the end, the skulk is free and a jet pack costs p-res. So the marine should have an advantage. But I agreed already that it can be very frustrating to fight jet-packers as skulk. Even with Leap.
In this situation it comes down to attack with an advantage in numbers to kill the marine and their p-res investment.
2 bites will probably take at least 1 second, swap to another skill +fire and hit a moving jetpack target in 1 second. Im scheptical that this could be done under 2 seconds. But i appreciate your input.
Leap does help but i dont think it resolves the issue.