Some teams aren even pushing weapons 3 before armour. The slow march to victory of a better team is aided by this more than armour upgrades: at some point you have gained the map control by winning engagements, which forces the aliens to come to you on your terms more and more. It's these situations that are most aided by weapons upgrades, as you don't need to push and thereby put yourself in ambush spots.
It is personal choice, and I think very map dependent as well. You have to adapt to the game and make a decision on the spot about which is better. I'm personally loving weapon upgrades now that I have a 144Hz monitor and can actually see what's going on in a fight
Some teams aren even pushing weapons 3 before armour. The slow march to victory of a better team is aided by this more than armour upgrades: at some point you have gained the map control by winning engagements, which forces the aliens to come to you on your terms more and more. It's these situations that are most aided by weapons upgrades, as you don't need to push and thereby put yourself in ambush spots.
It is personal choice, and I think very map dependent as well. You have to adapt to the game and make a decision on the spot about which is better. I'm personally loving weapon upgrades now that I have a 144Hz monitor and can actually see what's going on in a fight
Agree with your points. As a side point, can the human eye actually detect 144Hz?
You do forget that most of the time RTs are being taken down by more than one player. So for example in competitive it's usually two players and in public it's usually 2-4. So in effect you're going to take it down even faster.
It still takes 6 clips regardless. If that 6 clips is divided between 2 players, it makes no difference. W0 and W1 are the same for killing RT's
Incorrect. Suppose each clip takes 3 seconds to unload. Between two people this is (taking into account reloading of a second or so) 9 seconds from each with 2 for reloading. Say about 11 seconds. 10% faster cuts off 1.1 seconds.
With just the one person it would be 18 seconds plus the five reloads - 23 seconds. Notice how it's not double 11.
The one second difference appears trivial - but it's that one second that often makes the difference.
Doing this kind of math doesn't really help... The main reason you don't understand the use of weapon 1 before armor 1 is the commander support. Maybe you've never played with a good commander that gives you med while you don't even ask for. Moreover, Rios' (snail comm) and hopsu/peacham (sauna comms) are really accurate with medpacks.
In this kind of match, during a fight, if a marine doesn't get a single med, it's because the commander was already on another fight. It doesn't happen THAT much, so... the benefit from weapon 1 is definitely better than armor 1.
Moreover, we re using (snails) a lot shift hive. So... your math here doesn't suit well with the reality ;o)
Add to that the superb pve game ns2 is becoming, where teams rely once again on the "outside" lifeform abilities to win fights: ie babblers before and now drifter ability spam.
The new meta if you can't play alien is basicly: rush cara 3 to drifter spam abilities to mass onos drifter spammed, ie: ns2 skill at it's finest.
Yo my skulks can't win engagements can i have mah drifter spam?
Joke aside armor1 vs a alien team packing and spaming enzyme + mucous membrane is useless.
We got new strats to respond to this, they seem to work pretty well, can't expand too much on this since snails will be raging at me if i do :>
Some teams aren even pushing weapons 3 before armour. The slow march to victory of a better team is aided by this more than armour upgrades: at some point you have gained the map control by winning engagements, which forces the aliens to come to you on your terms more and more. It's these situations that are most aided by weapons upgrades, as you don't need to push and thereby put yourself in ambush spots.
It is personal choice, and I think very map dependent as well. You have to adapt to the game and make a decision on the spot about which is better. I'm personally loving weapon upgrades now that I have a 144Hz monitor and can actually see what's going on in a fight
Agree with your points. As a side point, can the human eye actually detect 144Hz?
I don't know whether I can tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz because I haven't tried 120Hz. But the difference between 60Hz and 144Hz is absolutely incredible. I haven't checked my accuracy for a while, but it feels a lot higher than the 25% max I was able to get before.
Some teams aren even pushing weapons 3 before armour. The slow march to victory of a better team is aided by this more than armour upgrades: at some point you have gained the map control by winning engagements, which forces the aliens to come to you on your terms more and more. It's these situations that are most aided by weapons upgrades, as you don't need to push and thereby put yourself in ambush spots.
It is personal choice, and I think very map dependent as well. You have to adapt to the game and make a decision on the spot about which is better. I'm personally loving weapon upgrades now that I have a 144Hz monitor and can actually see what's going on in a fight
Agree with your points. As a side point, can the human eye actually detect 144Hz?
Yes, you will notice a huge difference. The game is much more fluid and hence it's way easier to track.
this has been discussed to great length before - i still think it doesn't make much of a difference as long as you have the most important upgrade which is A1 before fades. unless it's changed so fade no longer 2-shots A0, this will always be the concern.
all of those calculations are is unnecessary. it's just common sense a weapons upgrade benefits you all the time and armor upgrade only benefits you when it saves your life i.e. when you're under 40 hp (from your A1 pool of 200 hp)
Sorry to ask such a noob question (I'm still learning the game) but does that mean that each point of armour is worth 2 points of health?
this has been discussed to great length before - i still think it doesn't make much of a difference as long as you have the most important upgrade which is A1 before fades. unless it's changed so fade no longer 2-shots A0, this will always be the concern.
all of those calculations are is unnecessary. it's just common sense a weapons upgrade benefits you all the time and armor upgrade only benefits you when it saves your life i.e. when you're under 40 hp (from your A1 pool of 200 hp)
Sorry to ask such a noob question (I'm still learning the game) but does that mean that each point of armour is worth 2 points of health?
Not necessarily, it depends on the damage type. It is true for bite though.
this has been discussed to great length before - i still think it doesn't make much of a difference as long as you have the most important upgrade which is A1 before fades. unless it's changed so fade no longer 2-shots A0, this will always be the concern.
all of those calculations are is unnecessary. it's just common sense a weapons upgrade benefits you all the time and armor upgrade only benefits you when it saves your life i.e. when you're under 40 hp (from your A1 pool of 200 hp)
Sorry to ask such a noob question (I'm still learning the game) but does that mean that each point of armour is worth 2 points of health?
Something like that. Hardly a noob question. I don't think anyone actually understands how this game handles health + armor and the 5-10 different damage types.
I don't think anyone actually understands how this game handles health + armor and the 5-10 different damage types.
Speak for yo self Jekt.
Light = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour (as it does subtract some health too) is multiplied by 1/4.
Normal = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is multiplied by 1/2.
Heavy = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is 1:1.
Puncture = The damage done by the attack is increased by 50%. That damage is then handled like normal damage.
Gas = Only does damage to health.
Biological = Damage is only dealt to players (none to buildings).
Corrosive = Damage is only dealt to buildings/armor.
Flame = 300% damage dealt to flammable structures (not sure which structures are, they seem like they all would be).
Structural = Double damage to structures.
I don't think anyone actually understands how this game handles health + armor and the 5-10 different damage types.
Speak for yo self Jekt.
Light = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour (as it does subtract some health too) is multiplied by 1/4.
Normal = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is multiplied by 1/2.
Heavy = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is 1:1.
Puncture = The damage done by the attack is increased by 50%. That damage is then handled like normal damage.
Gas = Only does damage to health.
Biological = Damage is only dealt to players (none to buildings).
Corrosive = Damage is only dealt to buildings.
Flame = 300% damage dealt to flammable structures (not sure which structures are, they seem like they all would be).
Structural = Double damage to structures.
Puncture does double damage only to players (would be pretty pointless otherwise^^).
Flammable structures are cysts and hydras.
I don't think anyone actually understands how this game handles health + armor and the 5-10 different damage types.
Speak for yo self Jekt.
Light = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour (as it does subtract some health too) is multiplied by 1/4.
Normal = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is multiplied by 1/2.
Heavy = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is 1:1.
Puncture = The damage done by the attack is increased by 50%. That damage is then handled like normal damage.
Gas = Only does damage to health.
Biological = Damage is only dealt to players (none to buildings).
Corrosive = Damage is only dealt to buildings.
Flame = 300% damage dealt to flammable structures (not sure which structures are, they seem like they all would be).
Structural = Double damage to structures.
Puncture does double damage only to players (would be pretty pointless otherwise^^).
Flammable structures are cysts and hydras.
Ah, I forgot puncture was changed, used to be a 50% increase (50 damage to buildings from swipe, 75 to marines). Then again, before that it was 25% (65 to structures 81 to marines). IT JUST KEEPS GOING UP!
In normal games (i.e. pub), definetly armor 1 first, helps a lot vs lerk and also if some skulks have brain and use para+bite. People can't usually aim well enough to really take advantage of W1 as much as A1.
Pub: A1 -> W1 -> W2 -> A2 -> W3 -> A3 seems to work best imho.
Add to that the superb pve game ns2 is becoming, where teams rely once again on the "outside" lifeform abilities to win fights: ie babblers before and now drifter ability spam.
The new meta if you can't play alien is basicly: rush cara 3 to drifter spam abilities to mass onos drifter spammed, ie: ns2 skill at it's finest.
Yo my skulks can't win engagements can i have mah drifter spam?
Joke aside armor1 vs a alien team packing and spaming enzyme + mucous membrane is useless.
We got new strats to respond to this, they seem to work pretty well, can't expand too much on this since snails will be raging at me if i do :>
Armor 2 and 3 become even less important when you can just nano.
I think your underestimating how the dynamics change from small playercount comp to large playercount pub. When you have to med/nano 10+ players rather than only 5, the value of forgoing armor for weapons is greatly reduced.
Also, exos are much more viable in larger playercount games where going a1 first positions you much better to get exos earlier (I don't like getting exos without at least a2).
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
To be fair as a waster of bullets i envy that last bullet i could have used on that second skulk
What's that popular phrase? the best defense is a good offense.
Armor 2 and 3 become even less important when you can just nano.
I think your underestimating how the dynamics change from small playercount comp to large playercount pub. When you have to med/nano 10+ players rather than only 5, the value of forgoing armor for weapons is greatly reduced.
Also, exos are much more viable in larger playercount games where going a1 first positions you much better to get exos earlier (I don't like getting exos without at least a2).
You're right I was referring to 6v6 Scardy, where 1 nano'd player makes the lack of armour upgrades for the other marines worth it in group fights.
In pub though I still think the weap ups are worth it. You can nanoshield the better players that can take advantage of the W2. When I see a noob backpeddling I don't feel like armor upgrades or medpacks are going to help that player get the kill. With weapon ups at least he can maybe get a kill before the skulk reaches his feet, or at least do some more chip.
Exosuits are an interesting point. To be honest I don't often use them since the vision impairment is just crippling. Not being able to move while shooting annoys me to. The railgun suffers from this less but can't really be used in the W/A comparison since it isn't effected by weapon levels. (Unless that was changed when I wasn't looking, I think all the marine weapons should be effected by weapon levels)
Armor upgrades do help miniguns more than weapon ups though, so I agree there. The damage output is already very high on W0.
If you're talking about harvesters remember the infestation recedes pretty fast now and cysts take a little time to spread infestation after they are dropped, so killing the cyst is actually viable when killing a harvester. W1 can actually have a positive effect in this circumstance as leaving a harvester with ~5-10% of it's hp remaining off infestation can still mean a dead harvester, not to mention the damage dealt while you are killing it off infestation.
Still prefer a1 though because it helps when lerks come out.
Add to that the superb pve game ns2 is becoming, where teams rely once again on the "outside" lifeform abilities to win fights: ie babblers before and now drifter ability spam.
The new meta if you can't play alien is basicly: rush cara 3 to drifter spam abilities to mass onos drifter spammed, ie: ns2 skill at it's finest.
It's good to hear that drifter power is finally getting recognized for what it is in div 1. Now hopefully we will see nerfs on those abililties and that silly drifter road running.
*As for the topic, 1 minute catpack/nano all the way! Upgrades pfsch.
Armor 2 and 3 become even less important when you can just nano.
I think your underestimating how the dynamics change from small playercount comp to large playercount pub. When you have to med/nano 10+ players rather than only 5, the value of forgoing armor for weapons is greatly reduced.
Also, exos are much more viable in larger playercount games where going a1 first positions you much better to get exos earlier (I don't like getting exos without at least a2).
You're right I was referring to 6v6 Scardy, where 1 nano'd player makes the lack of armour upgrades for the other marines worth it in group fights.
In pub though I still think the weap ups are worth it. You can nanoshield the better players that can take advantage of the W2. When I see a noob backpeddling I don't feel like armor upgrades or medpacks are going to help that player get the kill. With weapon ups at least he can maybe get a kill before the skulk reaches his feet, or at least do some more chip.
Exosuits are an interesting point. To be honest I don't often use them since the vision impairment is just crippling. Not being able to move while shooting annoys me to. The railgun suffers from this less but can't really be used in the W/A comparison since it isn't effected by weapon levels. (Unless that was changed when I wasn't looking, I think all the marine weapons should be effected by weapon levels)
Armor upgrades do help miniguns more than weapon ups though, so I agree there. The damage output is already very high on W0.
what's funny though is that when i'm playing as skulk i don't care about weapon upgrades at all - i care about armour.
needing those 1-2 extra bites seems to make it impossible to kill decent marines. it's very rare that i kill a marine and have <10 hp left, a situation which would indicate that the marine would have killed me if he'd had a weapon upgrade.
Apart from the w1 buff for a one less bullet kill (passive regen fk you). I don't really think weapon upgrades for rifles are for skulks, it's more an investment in the mid game to wreck life forms with either rifle or shotgun (mostly shotgun).
Armor 2 and 3 become even less important when you can just nano.
I think your underestimating how the dynamics change from small playercount comp to large playercount pub. When you have to med/nano 10+ players rather than only 5, the value of forgoing armor for weapons is greatly reduced.
Also, exos are much more viable in larger playercount games where going a1 first positions you much better to get exos earlier (I don't like getting exos without at least a2).
You're right I was referring to 6v6 Scardy, where 1 nano'd player makes the lack of armour upgrades for the other marines worth it in group fights.
In pub though I still think the weap ups are worth it. You can nanoshield the better players that can take advantage of the W2. When I see a noob backpeddling I don't feel like armor upgrades or medpacks are going to help that player get the kill. With weapon ups at least he can maybe get a kill before the skulk reaches his feet, or at least do some more chip.
Exosuits are an interesting point. To be honest I don't often use them since the vision impairment is just crippling. Not being able to move while shooting annoys me to. The railgun suffers from this less but can't really be used in the W/A comparison since it isn't effected by weapon levels. (Unless that was changed when I wasn't looking, I think all the marine weapons should be effected by weapon levels)
Armor upgrades do help miniguns more than weapon ups though, so I agree there. The damage output is already very high on W0.
what's funny though is that when i'm playing as skulk i don't care about weapon upgrades at all - i care about armour.
needing those 1-2 extra bites seems to make it impossible to kill decent marines. it's very rare that i kill a marine and have <10 hp left, a situation which would indicate that the marine would have killed me if he'd had a weapon upgrade.
Really? I find myself with low hp very often. Number of bites also really depends on the marine commander medding or not. Can often need multiple more bites with meds if the skulk(s) are missing.
Some other problems I have with armor in pubs; gorge bile corroding it away in fights, bombard whip basically 1 shotting any armor level, and the lack of in the know players buying welders.
Great thing about the arms labs simplistic design is that everything is viable imo, I'm not going to try and convince anyone that going armor is wrong. Because it isn't. If only some of the other mechanics generated such healthy and positive discussion.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
For comp play, isnt it as simple as:
Can aim: w1
Can not aim: a1
As for pubs I strongly disagree on w1 myself, and do find a1 more valuable. Yes it is a extra bite and yes newbies will still die the first few times. But the 'not so new but still not good' players will infact dodge a bit and atleast put some bullets in those skulks.
As you keep more armor with a1 and a2 after only 2 bites, meds and nano still have more use as there is still armor to work with, giving the 'not so awesome' players still some breathing room.
Most pub fights are lost not by not winning the first engagement, but keeping the ground when the next wave of skulks comes in. Id prefer them to have as much armor as possible when they are trying to get that PG up.
Whoever says a comm can't pay attention to every engagement you haven't had a good comm, especially since we're talking about a 6 on 6 match. Space-Q-E and click I believe that's the right key combo.
Comments
It is personal choice, and I think very map dependent as well. You have to adapt to the game and make a decision on the spot about which is better. I'm personally loving weapon upgrades now that I have a 144Hz monitor and can actually see what's going on in a fight
Agree with your points. As a side point, can the human eye actually detect 144Hz?
Incorrect. Suppose each clip takes 3 seconds to unload. Between two people this is (taking into account reloading of a second or so) 9 seconds from each with 2 for reloading. Say about 11 seconds. 10% faster cuts off 1.1 seconds.
With just the one person it would be 18 seconds plus the five reloads - 23 seconds. Notice how it's not double 11.
The one second difference appears trivial - but it's that one second that often makes the difference.
In this kind of match, during a fight, if a marine doesn't get a single med, it's because the commander was already on another fight. It doesn't happen THAT much, so... the benefit from weapon 1 is definitely better than armor 1.
Moreover, we re using (snails) a lot shift hive. So... your math here doesn't suit well with the reality ;o)
The new meta if you can't play alien is basicly: rush cara 3 to drifter spam abilities to mass onos drifter spammed, ie: ns2 skill at it's finest.
Yo my skulks can't win engagements can i have mah drifter spam?
Joke aside armor1 vs a alien team packing and spaming enzyme + mucous membrane is useless.
We got new strats to respond to this, they seem to work pretty well, can't expand too much on this since snails will be raging at me if i do :>
I don't know whether I can tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz because I haven't tried 120Hz. But the difference between 60Hz and 144Hz is absolutely incredible. I haven't checked my accuracy for a while, but it feels a lot higher than the 25% max I was able to get before.
Yes, you will notice a huge difference. The game is much more fluid and hence it's way easier to track.
Sorry to ask such a noob question (I'm still learning the game) but does that mean that each point of armour is worth 2 points of health?
Not necessarily, it depends on the damage type. It is true for bite though.
http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Damage_Types
^ might be outdated, not sure
Something like that. Hardly a noob question. I don't think anyone actually understands how this game handles health + armor and the 5-10 different damage types.
Light, normal, heavy, puncture, flame, corrosion. I'm sure I'm forgetting some.
Speak for yo self Jekt.
Light = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour (as it does subtract some health too) is multiplied by 1/4.
Normal = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is multiplied by 1/2.
Heavy = The portion of damage that is being dealt to armour is 1:1.
Puncture = The damage done by the attack is increased by 50%. That damage is then handled like normal damage.
Gas = Only does damage to health.
Biological = Damage is only dealt to players (none to buildings).
Corrosive = Damage is only dealt to buildings/armor.
Flame = 300% damage dealt to flammable structures (not sure which structures are, they seem like they all would be).
Structural = Double damage to structures.
Puncture does double damage only to players (would be pretty pointless otherwise^^).
Flammable structures are cysts and hydras.
Ah, I forgot puncture was changed, used to be a 50% increase (50 damage to buildings from swipe, 75 to marines). Then again, before that it was 25% (65 to structures 81 to marines). IT JUST KEEPS GOING UP!
Pub: A1 -> W1 -> W2 -> A2 -> W3 -> A3 seems to work best imho.
Any tips for my sixpack?
Also, exos are much more viable in larger playercount games where going a1 first positions you much better to get exos earlier (I don't like getting exos without at least a2).
What's that popular phrase? the best defense is a good offense.
You're right I was referring to 6v6 Scardy, where 1 nano'd player makes the lack of armour upgrades for the other marines worth it in group fights.
In pub though I still think the weap ups are worth it. You can nanoshield the better players that can take advantage of the W2. When I see a noob backpeddling I don't feel like armor upgrades or medpacks are going to help that player get the kill. With weapon ups at least he can maybe get a kill before the skulk reaches his feet, or at least do some more chip.
Exosuits are an interesting point. To be honest I don't often use them since the vision impairment is just crippling. Not being able to move while shooting annoys me to. The railgun suffers from this less but can't really be used in the W/A comparison since it isn't effected by weapon levels. (Unless that was changed when I wasn't looking, I think all the marine weapons should be effected by weapon levels)
Armor upgrades do help miniguns more than weapon ups though, so I agree there. The damage output is already very high on W0.
Still prefer a1 though because it helps when lerks come out.
*As for the topic, 1 minute catpack/nano all the way! Upgrades pfsch.
what's funny though is that when i'm playing as skulk i don't care about weapon upgrades at all - i care about armour.
needing those 1-2 extra bites seems to make it impossible to kill decent marines. it's very rare that i kill a marine and have <10 hp left, a situation which would indicate that the marine would have killed me if he'd had a weapon upgrade.
Really? I find myself with low hp very often. Number of bites also really depends on the marine commander medding or not. Can often need multiple more bites with meds if the skulk(s) are missing.
Some other problems I have with armor in pubs; gorge bile corroding it away in fights, bombard whip basically 1 shotting any armor level, and the lack of in the know players buying welders.
Great thing about the arms labs simplistic design is that everything is viable imo, I'm not going to try and convince anyone that going armor is wrong. Because it isn't. If only some of the other mechanics generated such healthy and positive discussion.
Can aim: w1
Can not aim: a1
As for pubs I strongly disagree on w1 myself, and do find a1 more valuable. Yes it is a extra bite and yes newbies will still die the first few times. But the 'not so new but still not good' players will infact dodge a bit and atleast put some bullets in those skulks.
As you keep more armor with a1 and a2 after only 2 bites, meds and nano still have more use as there is still armor to work with, giving the 'not so awesome' players still some breathing room.
Most pub fights are lost not by not winning the first engagement, but keeping the ground when the next wave of skulks comes in. Id prefer them to have as much armor as possible when they are trying to get that PG up.