Completeness! Why can't I bind any key to any action?
Alternate Bindings. Why can't I bind multiple keys to an action?
I have a sinking feeling that we can't bind mouse wheel because one of the devs thinks it would be "abusable" or "scriptable". With cooldowns, this isn't a problem, and you are simply artificially neutering the game.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2013
Anyone played a Source game? I hear those do bindings well. If you've ever looked into configs for games like HL2:DM, L4D, TF2, Quake it becomes a bit hard to stand up for how it's done in NS2. Or isn't done.
Problems with the binding system.
1. Only accepts pre defined keys that can be bound which can only be seen using a console command that no one knows.
2. There are no console commands any useful action in-game.
3. I can't create and upload my masterpiece autoexec complete with alias keybindings on fpsbanana.
tbh I don't actually care about this all that much though. So much other stuff I want fixed or added. Although having console commands for things like evolutions or buying a sg is amazing.
I'll say this though, seperate keybinding section for commanding and mwheel binding support. Ever.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
Yeah it would be great if the binding system was like it is in Source games. Unfortunately it is not though. There is only so much you can do at this point. NS2 would never work like it does with Source games, it just isn't possible at this point. The only thing you can do it mod it the best you can and hope people use it and it works. But yes, I rather things like critical bugs and tools to be fixed first.
Also looks like my post broke the forums, oops!. I guess it was because I had some spoilers ending before I had code boxes ending, but thanks to Comprox for fixing it
It would be awsome to bind specific alien attack to separate configs (diffrent for each of lifeform). For egzample bind parasite attack to separate key (in that way you dont need to switch attack to parasite and then press attack buton, it would instant attack para without need of switichng to it).
@SamusDroid, thank you for the great explanation. Now I finally get the difference between those to files, this should totally be in the wiki. If you put it there I'm sure we can help with reformatting and completing it.
That is indeed awesome, so there is a possibility to extend the binding system with a mod without failing consistency. Is there any Documentation on what causes you to fail consistency?
What I'm thinking about is if we can make a mod that extends the Binding system in a way that allows to bind more actions and still pass consistency.
The reason my mod needs to be server side is because it needs to send the order to the commander which is the AlertTechId = kTechId.None part of above.
So if we don't assign an AlertTechId we can pass consistency? In this case we could at least rebind any keys that don't send messages to commander? What If I bind Chuckle, it does alert other clients so will it pass consistency?
Unification of these systems. Why are there 2 so completely different systems for very similar if not identical things?
They are not very similar at all because you would need to create a function for each thing in the game, jump, chuckle, etc... telling it to do a certain thing. Completely differently than they actually do most times in game.
Thats what I mean. Why are there these 2 totally different systems? It would be much cleaner to have only one binding system that supports both, console commands and keypresses. Of course the way the engine processes input this would need a lot of change.
I see two ways of improving the situation with a mod:
The easiest alternative to make the system more complete would be to create functions for all the things that don't have a console command already. Then you could use ConsoleCommands.json to do the complete keyboard configuration and it would override anything in options.xml, right? At least this should also be capable of binding the same function to multiple keys. This solution has several problems, though:
Can't configure the bindings in the menu.
The json file is not synced with the steam cloud.
A better way would be to have all settings stored in options.xml. One could have different layouts that activate on a configurable hotkey. For example have F9 select marine bindings, F10 skulk bindings, F11 Fade and so on. Then you could probably live with only one key per action. You could also modify the sensitivity and fov on these hotkeys, so it solves another problem.
However, there are a load of things that can't be changed by a simple mod that are necessary to make a good keybinding system:
The way options.xml works you simply cannot have more than one key for an action. The Entries are <Action>Key</Action> but they would either have to allow multiple <Action> items or have it the other way arround <Key>Action</Key>.
I don't think things like vortex or parasite can be simply bound to a key by a console function as they work by equipping abilities and then using primary attack. So there needs to be some change in the game to allow this, or one would have to create functions that switch abilities, fire and switch back. Would any of those pass consistency?
I still don't see how you can bind Mousewheel directions seperately, I can only see MouseZ as an axis.
Even if you make a mod that fixes all these things it is only configurable ingame, after you join a server. So the usability for new users still sucks.
Any of the commander features need to run on the server as you mentioned, and thus a mod is simply not an option to bind them.
I don't see how you can fix the last list with a mod and I do think these issues are important. So I believe it would be prudent for the devs to address this issue. It's not that hard to fix and it will improve the feel of the game a ton. You guys just made a ton of money with the reinforced program, so perhaps use a small bit of it to fix this issue, @Max? This shouldn't take more than 40 hours for a dev, so how much could it possibly cost, 2000$? In the long term, I think making the system more usable will also positively affect sales. A good control system raises the skill floor, thus making the game more fun for new players. Especially being able to fade around, vortex and stab without using complicated keyboard sequences in the heat of battle will make the fade more enjoyable for new players. Even if it could be solved completely by a mod, which i doubt, most new players will not bother looking for a mod that fixes their issues but just not buy the game after a free weekend. They will simply give their money to some AAA studio that, while having a boring and stupid game concept, at least get basics like keybindings right.
TL;DR:
There are ways you could partially solve the problem by writing a mod. Because of the issues in the last list there are some important things you cannot fix with a client mod that passes consistency checking. So there should be changes in the keybinding system that make it completely customizable without writing lua code .
it was my post? Must of been something max did and then I did to try and fix it, because he had his reponse inside of a quote, so when i quoted it my response was also in a quote so I took my response out of the quote and I guess that broke it?
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
It was my post, with the code boxes inside spoilers.
I already considered merging the two together, but never did. There is no easy way to do some things that require overwrtiging the source files Maybe if more people wanted it I would spend time doing it, but there are a lot of other NS2 thing's I'm currently doing, with not enough time to do them all :-<
@SamusDroid: BuyMenuHotkeys also fails consistency. By default all lua mods even if clientside fail consistency if not run by the server or whitelisted, i think.
@SamusDroid: BuyMenuHotkeys also fails consistency. By default all lua mods even if clientside fail consistency if not run by the server or whitelisted, i think.
No...it doesn't. If it does, then the server you play on has ridiculous consistency.
@SamusDroid: BuyMenuHotkeys also fails consistency. By default all lua mods even if clientside fail consistency if not run by the server or whitelisted, i think.
No...it doesn't. If it does, then the server you play on has ridiculous consistency.
Default consistency check settings .... . Allowing that mod would also allow some other "bad" mods
@SamusDroid: BuyMenuHotkeys also fails consistency. By default all lua mods even if clientside fail consistency if not run by the server or whitelisted, i think.
No...it doesn't. If it does, then the server you play on has ridiculous consistency.
Default consistency check settings .... . Allowing that mod would also allow some other "bad" mods
On the 10 or so I checked it on it passed consistency.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
It will pass on any server with costum maps. Another thing i hate about the default settings. They won't allow you to host custom maps... . Hopefully this gets changed with 258
On the 10 or so I checked it on it passed consistency.
I installed a fresh test server on linux via steamcmd, modified nothing in the consistency settings and it rejected the mod. Don't know whats causing it, only mods running serverside are ns2stats and shine with default settings.
Edit: Just tested without any mods, still fails consistency.
It's interesting that it does work on an UWE official but not on a fresh install. I wonder why that is. However, as long as it doesn't work on a clean install I don't see how it could be usefull to anyone. Having 2 different keybinding systems and switching between them is hardly better than one crappy one...
It's interesting that it does work on an UWE official but not on a fresh install. I wonder why that is. However, as long as it doesn't work on a clean install I don't see how it could be usefull to anyone. Having 2 different keybinding systems and switching between them is hardly better than one crappy one...
NS2 generates a different default consistency check setting since 3 builds or so. It differs from the old one.
That makes sense. So why isn't it updated on existing servers? Seems like the servers are partitioned now into one part that allows lua mods because it was installed before build 255 or something, and all newly installed ones that don't. Seriously, this is such a mess...
Yeah, probably. So if entry files are also consistency checked, I don't see an option to have a client mod fixing this issue anymore, do you? The way I see it the only way to do something about this issue that works on any server is if the devs do it.
Default consistency check will not allow loading .entry files in that manner anymore, it was a massive loophole that allowed clients to do anything they wanted to, and it had to be removed. If the server is running the binds mod then all clients will be able to use it. Servers with previously generated consistencycheck configs would not get updated, so they would still allow the mod.
As for custom maps, those should work fine even with default consistency check - what errors are you getting with custom maps?
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
It's too bad people have to cheat and abuse the modding system ruining it for other people. You can't run **** without it failing consistency. Making modding kinda pointless. Most people are completely unaware of what goes on outside a public game meaning they have no clue what mods have been updated or what new mods have been released. They won't change it though. What would help a lot with this issue is if there was a community driven whitelist and blacklist of allowed and banned mods that could be run on any servers. Of course that would require official implementation. As from what I have seen it's not possible to be done as a mod, even if possible, it would just get ignored by people who don't visit the forums.
Yes, a whitelist of hashes for known good mods would be pretty helpful. You should start a new Thread for that, though, as we are getting a bit of topic.
The keybinding system is still very far from acceptable and the devs should do something about it. With the new consistency checking there is nothing we can do with a mod to help people...
I kind of wonder if anyone @UWE gives a damn, though. This thread has 54 Posts, 790 Views and the original Proposal has 8 Agrees and 3 Awesomes. This makes it by far the most active and community supported suggestion in the last month. Still, the only reaction from any of the devs was @Max, responding to some post unrelated to the original problem statement. So could anyone of @hugh, @max, @chops, @dushan, @squeal_like_a_pig, @steverock, @acedude and @flayra please at least state what your position is on this problem?
I mean seriously, we've been discussing this problem for over 3 weeks and still don't have any official response? It's ok if you think my suggestion is crap and you won't implement it because you think the current system is great, but then at least take 1 minute to tell us so. I kind of get the feeling you pipe your suggestion box to /dev/null, which imho is a pretty big mistake.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but I'd really like to set the sensitivity individually for classes. It doesn't have to be class based, setting it individually for marine & alien side would be more than enough. oh and, commander keys.. I use C as voice comm and V as map. Can't remember how many times I recycled the base by accident..
Comments
I have a sinking feeling that we can't bind mouse wheel because one of the devs thinks it would be "abusable" or "scriptable". With cooldowns, this isn't a problem, and you are simply artificially neutering the game.
Problems with the binding system.
1. Only accepts pre defined keys that can be bound which can only be seen using a console command that no one knows.
2. There are no console commands any useful action in-game.
3. I can't create and upload my masterpiece autoexec complete with alias keybindings on fpsbanana.
tbh I don't actually care about this all that much though. So much other stuff I want fixed or added. Although having console commands for things like evolutions or buying a sg is amazing.
I'll say this though, seperate keybinding section for commanding and mwheel binding support. Ever.
Also looks like my post broke the forums, oops!. I guess it was because I had some spoilers ending before I had code boxes ending, but thanks to Comprox for fixing it
That is indeed awesome, so there is a possibility to extend the binding system with a mod without failing consistency. Is there any Documentation on what causes you to fail consistency?
What I'm thinking about is if we can make a mod that extends the Binding system in a way that allows to bind more actions and still pass consistency.
So if we don't assign an AlertTechId we can pass consistency? In this case we could at least rebind any keys that don't send messages to commander? What If I bind Chuckle, it does alert other clients so will it pass consistency?
Thats what I mean. Why are there these 2 totally different systems? It would be much cleaner to have only one binding system that supports both, console commands and keypresses. Of course the way the engine processes input this would need a lot of change.
I see two ways of improving the situation with a mod:
However, there are a load of things that can't be changed by a simple mod that are necessary to make a good keybinding system:
I don't see how you can fix the last list with a mod and I do think these issues are important. So I believe it would be prudent for the devs to address this issue. It's not that hard to fix and it will improve the feel of the game a ton. You guys just made a ton of money with the reinforced program, so perhaps use a small bit of it to fix this issue, @Max? This shouldn't take more than 40 hours for a dev, so how much could it possibly cost, 2000$? In the long term, I think making the system more usable will also positively affect sales. A good control system raises the skill floor, thus making the game more fun for new players. Especially being able to fade around, vortex and stab without using complicated keyboard sequences in the heat of battle will make the fade more enjoyable for new players. Even if it could be solved completely by a mod, which i doubt, most new players will not bother looking for a mod that fixes their issues but just not buy the game after a free weekend. They will simply give their money to some AAA studio that, while having a boring and stupid game concept, at least get basics like keybindings right.
TL;DR:
There are ways you could partially solve the problem by writing a mod. Because of the issues in the last list there are some important things you cannot fix with a client mod that passes consistency checking. So there should be changes in the keybinding system that make it completely customizable without writing lua code
I already considered merging the two together, but never did. There is no easy way to do some things that require overwrtiging the source files Maybe if more people wanted it I would spend time doing it, but there are a lot of other NS2 thing's I'm currently doing, with not enough time to do them all :-<
Default consistency check settings .... . Allowing that mod would also allow some other "bad" mods
Edit: Just tested without any mods, still fails consistency.
NS2 generates a different default consistency check setting since 3 builds or so. It differs from the old one.
As for custom maps, those should work fine even with default consistency check - what errors are you getting with custom maps?
The keybinding system is still very far from acceptable and the devs should do something about it. With the new consistency checking there is nothing we can do with a mod to help people...
I kind of wonder if anyone @UWE gives a damn, though. This thread has 54 Posts, 790 Views and the original Proposal has 8 Agrees and 3 Awesomes. This makes it by far the most active and community supported suggestion in the last month. Still, the only reaction from any of the devs was @Max, responding to some post unrelated to the original problem statement. So could anyone of @hugh, @max, @chops, @dushan, @squeal_like_a_pig, @steverock, @acedude and @flayra please at least state what your position is on this problem?
I mean seriously, we've been discussing this problem for over 3 weeks and still don't have any official response? It's ok if you think my suggestion is crap and you won't implement it because you think the current system is great, but then at least take 1 minute to tell us so. I kind of get the feeling you pipe your suggestion box to /dev/null, which imho is a pretty big mistake.
Bump for something quite crucial to the playability of any game.
Missing options for key binds
In-depth key binding for better player control.
We shouldn't be able to bind a key on several actions over 4 years ago
*bump.
*bump.