For a game like Natural Selection, I'd love to see hear TrueAudio support.
Just imagine being able to locate and track a skulk with your headset.
Wouldn't that be sweet?
Here is a TrueAudio demo:
Being able to locate and track a skulk with your headset would certainly be sweet! I'm very enthusiastic about 3D audio (especially for headphones) and I'd love to see more game developers implementing technologies that provide 3D audio for headphone users.
I was very enthusiastic about 3D audio when I was rocking a quad setup with an Aureal Vortex II around the late 90's. Then the company went bankrupt and HRTF-related research and support slowly turned into WhoGives3ShitsRTF over the course of the next 15 years, where it comfortably sits right now. Can't see it taking off from there. Also spending GPU cycles on sound processing makes me laugh.
I can't really care about GSync because I play with vsync off and I haven't really been bothered by tearing at all. It's worth mentioning that I play on a 37" display, and I doubt many "TV" manufacturers (which the display is marketed as) will be interested in GSync. Also it's proprietary. I'm sure Nvidia have secured plenty of patents and contracts that will ensure exclusivity even if AMD reverse-engineers or concedes to using the tech. I seriously doubt they'll pay royalties either, so best case scenario AMD will announce a competing/same technology next year, and display manufacturers will have to incorporate a different controller, if they want to support both. Guess who pays for all this shit? You do.
Speaking of proprietary, and back to thread: Mantle.
GPU manufacturers need to stop measuring dick and work on improving support for OpenCL and OpenGL IMO, otherwise the PC gaming business will turn into a console-like shit. Imagine subsidized or contracted "AAA" titles that don't run on Nvidia because they are Mantle-exclusive, or don't run on ATI because if mantle takes off, you bet your balls that Nvidia will announce something similar if not the same.
I really hope NONE of this crap takes off. I'm sad CUDA and ShysiX haven't disappeared yet. And I've had nvidia cards for 5+ years. CUDA and ShysiX add NOTHING that couldn't have been done with OpenCL, except exclusivity and probably some SDK tools.
You do realise that PC gaming is ALREADY held back because of consoles yeah? Due to the outdated hardware almost every single AAA title has to be able to run on a console so pc never advances. (Or advances much much slower than it could).
You do realise that PC gaming is ALREADY held back because of consoles yeah? Due to the outdated hardware almost every single AAA title has to be able to run on a console so pc never advances. (Or advances much much slower than it could).
Except PC exclusives!! PC exclusive games are great. Console ports are.. well... as you say "held back". Compare Skyrim's UI to Morrowind, despite it being released nearly 10 years later, Morrowind has still got the superior UI.
Right. But that leads to other problems: Because of generally lower specs, most PCs cannot run these games smoothly (at least not on high settings ). Compare Star Citizen.
One of the main points of having a PC to game with is that you can get the best and latest tech to be able to (in theory) run the most high tech games possible (in reality yeah, games still old). If you want to be able to play on outdated/old hardware, please, just go get a console.
One of the main points of having a PC to game with is that you can get the best and latest tech to be able to (in theory) run the most high tech games possible (in reality yeah, games still old). If you want to be able to play on outdated/old hardware, please, just go get a console.
For a game like Natural Selection, I'd love to see hear TrueAudio support.
Just imagine being able to locate and track a skulk with your headset.
Wouldn't that be sweet?
Here is a TrueAudio demo:
Being able to locate and track a skulk with your headset would certainly be sweet! I'm very enthusiastic about 3D audio (especially for headphones) and I'd love to see more game developers implementing technologies that provide 3D audio for headphone users.
I was very enthusiastic about 3D audio when I was rocking a quad setup with an Aureal Vortex II around the late 90's. Then the company went bankrupt and HRTF-related research and support slowly turned into WhoGives3ShitsRTF over the course of the next 15 years, where it comfortably sits right now. Can't see it taking off from there. Also spending GPU cycles on sound processing makes me laugh.
I can't really care about GSync because I play with vsync off and I haven't really been bothered by tearing at all. It's worth mentioning that I play on a 37" display, and I doubt many "TV" manufacturers (which the display is marketed as) will be interested in GSync. Also it's proprietary. I'm sure Nvidia have secured plenty of patents and contracts that will ensure exclusivity even if AMD reverse-engineers or concedes to using the tech. I seriously doubt they'll pay royalties either, so best case scenario AMD will announce a competing/same technology next year, and display manufacturers will have to incorporate a different controller, if they want to support both. Guess who pays for all this shit? You do.
Speaking of proprietary, and back to thread: Mantle.
GPU manufacturers need to stop measuring dick and work on improving support for OpenCL and OpenGL IMO, otherwise the PC gaming business will turn into a console-like shit. Imagine subsidized or contracted "AAA" titles that don't run on Nvidia because they are Mantle-exclusive, or don't run on ATI because if mantle takes off, you bet your balls that Nvidia will announce something similar if not the same.
I really hope NONE of this crap takes off. I'm sad CUDA and ShysiX haven't disappeared yet. And I've had nvidia cards for 5+ years. CUDA and ShysiX add NOTHING that couldn't have been done with OpenCL, except exclusivity and probably some SDK tools.
1. Afaik they wont use gpu cycles for audio. quote] It bears mentioning that AMD’s audio DSP is not part of a stand-alone audio card, rather it’s a dedicated processor created so that developers can take advantage of the hardware to process their audio, and then passing that back to the sound card for presentation.[/quote]
2. NVidea does have their own api already called NVAPI. They just areing pushing it like amd's mantle.
Except it's not "the latest and greatest." It's a technology which died over 15 years ago, for good reason (glide). It's a step towards exclusivity, closedness, proprietary tech. I'd much rather the team spend time on the Linux version of ns2, to get it ready for "SteamOS" which is the most brilliant glimmer of hope yet of breaking another monopoly over the market - that of DirectX. I haven't tried it, but from what I've heard and seen from the OpenGL renderer on win, it's quite a buggy crap at the moment.
One of the main points of having a PC to game with is that you can get the best and latest tech to be able to (in theory) run the most high tech games possible (in reality yeah, games still old). If you want to be able to play on outdated/old hardware, please, just go get a console.
These days, PC gaming is also about indie games and FREE games that consoles don't allow. Thereby, making gaming actually cheaper on a PC because there are a plethora of free games or cheap indie games that are enjoyable. Whereas, you're still paying $60 per console game, unless you're buying used.
I'm not so sure about making fps no longer an issue. The only visual advantage to me would seem to be removing any additional stutter caused by the monitor refreshing more often than there are frames to update, and of course (not visual) basically being vsync without any of the bad side effects. I'm sure fps can still be low enough as to look choppy.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7436/nvidias-gsync-attempting-to-revolutionize-gaming-via-smoothness this article seems to say a bit more for it. Anything below 30fps and 30hz will show noticeable flicker, but 30hz is minimum for what you would call smooth video. I love the 120hz systems though, looks more realistic than life, so if I could get a monitor that adjusts refresh dynamically based on fps that would rock pretty hard.
These days, PC gaming is also about indie games and FREE games that consoles don't allow. Thereby, making gaming actually cheaper on a PC because there are a plethora of free games or cheap indie games that are enjoyable. Whereas, you're still paying $60 per console game, unless you're buying used.
And mothafuckin Steam Summer sales! I love how I bought the newest tomb raider for like 10 bucks when on console you'd have had to buy it for like 50 or 60.
Except it's not "the latest and greatest." It's a technology which died over 15 years ago, for good reason (glide). It's a step towards exclusivity, closedness, proprietary tech. I'd much rather the team spend time on the Linux version of ns2, to get it ready for "SteamOS" which is the most brilliant glimmer of hope yet of breaking another monopoly over the market - that of DirectX. I haven't tried it, but from what I've heard and seen from the OpenGL renderer on win, it's quite a buggy crap at the moment.
You are greatly mistaken here...
Glide died because 3dfx went bust, not because it was rubbish. It was Glide that brought us smooth filtered textures when everyone else were still rendering horribly pixelated textures in half software mode. It was Glide that brought us higher resolutions and high framerates with proper transparency of objects that allowed incredible new effects no one else used before. Being proprietary tech was never an issue because the benefit of it was simply incredible. The reason why Direct3D was brought to life back then was because there were too many gfx vendors pushing their own tech. We had 3dfx, S3, NVDIA, ATI, Matrox, Rendition, XGI, SiS, PowerVR, Trident etc, so an unified API (D3D) made sense. Today, we only have AMD, NVIDIA and Intel. And that's it. Even if each would use their own proprietary API, it wouldn't be much of a problem for developers to make games for all 3, assuming the API is not clumsy and difficult to support using existing development tools.
I think i can safely say that if AMD Mantle succeeds, NVIDIA will also create their own API, because i doubt they'll support AMD Mantle, besides, i don't think Mantle was even designed to do so. It's a low level API meant to support one thing and support that really well. Where D3D supports everything, but does that sort of average. And i don't think Intel will bother making their own, because they just aren't into gaming with their poor GPU's. And D3D will run existing stuff just as good as it does now.
I just have no clue what will this mean in long term. I love playing old games even decades later and no one really knows how well Mantle will be supported in such long run. I hope D3D support will still be available in all games for long term compatibility,s ince emulation is not an option like it was with Glide due to pixel shader usage which is just too complex to emulate and get any sorts of playable framerate out of it.
So there is that. I still think AMD Mantle is a brilliant idea for the current given gfx market situation of only 2 main gaming gfx vendors and one that is mostly focused on integrated solutions that basically just run the desktop and that's it. It wouldn't work 10 or 15 years ago though...
Benchmarks on 290x were looking pretty good until I saw this video showing the fan running at 55%.
51.2Db! F that noise. It's nice that they're about $150 cheaper than a 780 but I'd say the fact that it's pulling about 300w under load, can't maintain it's reference clocks, and the fans require industrial hearing protection I'd rather spend the extra $150. At that point you can overclock a 780 and it'll still beat a 290x. So pretty much Mantle can suck a fat one until they manage to make their cards better.
It's a reference card with a blower fan. Those always sucked... wait for WindForce 3X for example. I run my 7950 at 40% at max load, which makes it pretty much dead silent. You can expect somewhat similar results with R9-290 as well imo...
More cool stuff from nvidia, YOU LOSE SIR! In all seriousness though, I'm really seeing no reason at all to go ATI apart from perhaps bang for buck right now.
Wow, they've (re)invented Fraps. With hardware acceleraed encoding. Just for the info, it has already been done before with program called Bandicam... so, nothing particularly exciting...
The main problem with NVIDIA is that they are releasing bunch of useless rubbish to make it look like they have bunch of stuff to offer, but in reality they have nothing useful at all. And it has been like this for ages. Only useful thing they've released was FXAA support, but then again so does AMD have their MLAA which works superbly as well...
Yeah...don't agree it's like bandicam at all, I test recorded a 50mbit bitrate video 1080p and was getting about 2% frame loss, can't say the same for bandicam, that shit rapes my fps.
Most probably not gonna happen. They already have 2 API's in development and they wont try to develop a new API as it is too much work and Mantle isnt proven to be any good yet (wait for a couple of games to use it, see how it is, then decide)
Also take all this Mantle talk with a grain of salt. AMD isn't known to make things efficient or bug-free.
When DX11 and OpenGL for this game become more optimized, they should make DX9 legacy.
Used to buy ATI, but eventually I noticed that Nvidia cards have far less problems than the ATI cards I bought so I switched. ATI would have to fix a lot of problems before I'd consider buying another card from them. The other problem is they're talking about this stuff really only being useful with a small range of cards. So that really narrows down the number of people using it, realistically only about 5-7% of players on Steam currently meet that requirement. Surprisingly the most used graphics adapters are intel integrated, which I wouldn't expect from a gaming platform. So I guess my 2 cents is, not worth it and I wouldn't expect Mantle to really do anything all that great and will most likely go the way of 3dFX as previously mentioned.
Please be a bit more specific on the "requirement".
Also intel only accounts for 16% of gpu's. I think you meant cpu's where it accounts for 74%.
Most probably not gonna happen. They already have 2 API's in development and they wont try to develop a new API as it is too much work and Mantle isnt proven to be any good yet (wait for a couple of games to use it, see how it is, then decide)
Also take all this Mantle talk with a grain of salt. AMD isn't known to make things efficient or bug-free.
When DX11 and OpenGL for this game become more optimized, they should make DX9 legacy.
This is a hardware API and AMD is known to make good hardware.
Honestly, the graphics requirements for this game aren't that high. So I'm not sure why we would need a hardware level api implementation. The only graphics thing that needs work is opengl, since it is currently really buggy and slow.
I don't like the idea of Mantle. It's a very GPU-specific API, applying ONLY to Southern Island GPUs. That means only 7000 series and up. People pointed out earlier that AMD GPUs have a large market share, but most of then are not 7000 or up. That's one issue.
The other issue as other people have pointed out is that it's a return to the days of Glide. Those were not good days. There was a stupid amount of APIs developers had to program for their games. Games typically had anywhere from 3-6 APIs used, those being: OpenGL, Direct3D, Software Rendering, Glide, PowerVR, and one more I can't recall. Can you imagine how much work that is? PC gaming really took off because the list of APIs dropped down from 3-6 to 2, then to 1. It's far less work for a programmer, and as such more optimization can be put into the game that everyone will enjoy. Having more APIs will fragment optimization across different platforms. There won't just be Direct3D, OpenGL, and Mantle. Nvidia will come out with their own GPU specific API as well. Imagine the amount of bugs that will show up across the different renderers.
The very reason we ended up with GPU agnostic APIs like Direct3D and OpenGL is because developers got sick and tired of the GPU specific APIs of the 90s. It was not a consistent experience, and it required far more development resources.
I'm ultimately reserving judgement on Mantle and whatever Nvidia comes up with as we are after all over a decade since the last API mess, but I don't think this is a good idea.
Comments
I was very enthusiastic about 3D audio when I was rocking a quad setup with an Aureal Vortex II around the late 90's. Then the company went bankrupt and HRTF-related research and support slowly turned into WhoGives3ShitsRTF over the course of the next 15 years, where it comfortably sits right now. Can't see it taking off from there. Also spending GPU cycles on sound processing makes me laugh.
I can't really care about GSync because I play with vsync off and I haven't really been bothered by tearing at all. It's worth mentioning that I play on a 37" display, and I doubt many "TV" manufacturers (which the display is marketed as) will be interested in GSync. Also it's proprietary. I'm sure Nvidia have secured plenty of patents and contracts that will ensure exclusivity even if AMD reverse-engineers or concedes to using the tech. I seriously doubt they'll pay royalties either, so best case scenario AMD will announce a competing/same technology next year, and display manufacturers will have to incorporate a different controller, if they want to support both. Guess who pays for all this shit? You do.
Speaking of proprietary, and back to thread: Mantle.
GPU manufacturers need to stop measuring dick and work on improving support for OpenCL and OpenGL IMO, otherwise the PC gaming business will turn into a console-like shit. Imagine subsidized or contracted "AAA" titles that don't run on Nvidia because they are Mantle-exclusive, or don't run on ATI because if mantle takes off, you bet your balls that Nvidia will announce something similar if not the same.
I really hope NONE of this crap takes off. I'm sad CUDA and ShysiX haven't disappeared yet. And I've had nvidia cards for 5+ years. CUDA and ShysiX add NOTHING that couldn't have been done with OpenCL, except exclusivity and probably some SDK tools.
Except PC exclusives!!
Right. But that leads to other problems: Because of generally lower specs, most PCs cannot run these games smoothly (at least not on high settings
Why we need Mantle.
1. Afaik they wont use gpu cycles for audio. quote] It bears mentioning that AMD’s audio DSP is not part of a stand-alone audio card, rather it’s a dedicated processor created so that developers can take advantage of the hardware to process their audio, and then passing that back to the sound card for presentation.[/quote]
2. NVidea does have their own api already called NVAPI. They just areing pushing it like amd's mantle.
Except it's not "the latest and greatest." It's a technology which died over 15 years ago, for good reason (glide). It's a step towards exclusivity, closedness, proprietary tech. I'd much rather the team spend time on the Linux version of ns2, to get it ready for "SteamOS" which is the most brilliant glimmer of hope yet of breaking another monopoly over the market - that of DirectX. I haven't tried it, but from what I've heard and seen from the OpenGL renderer on win, it's quite a buggy crap at the moment.
These days, PC gaming is also about indie games and FREE games that consoles don't allow. Thereby, making gaming actually cheaper on a PC because there are a plethora of free games or cheap indie games that are enjoyable. Whereas, you're still paying $60 per console game, unless you're buying used.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7436/nvidias-gsync-attempting-to-revolutionize-gaming-via-smoothness this article seems to say a bit more for it. Anything below 30fps and 30hz will show noticeable flicker, but 30hz is minimum for what you would call smooth video. I love the 120hz systems though, looks more realistic than life, so if I could get a monitor that adjusts refresh dynamically based on fps that would rock pretty hard.
And mothafuckin Steam Summer sales! I love how I bought the newest tomb raider for like 10 bucks when on console you'd have had to buy it for like 50 or 60.
You are greatly mistaken here...
Glide died because 3dfx went bust, not because it was rubbish. It was Glide that brought us smooth filtered textures when everyone else were still rendering horribly pixelated textures in half software mode. It was Glide that brought us higher resolutions and high framerates with proper transparency of objects that allowed incredible new effects no one else used before. Being proprietary tech was never an issue because the benefit of it was simply incredible. The reason why Direct3D was brought to life back then was because there were too many gfx vendors pushing their own tech. We had 3dfx, S3, NVDIA, ATI, Matrox, Rendition, XGI, SiS, PowerVR, Trident etc, so an unified API (D3D) made sense. Today, we only have AMD, NVIDIA and Intel. And that's it. Even if each would use their own proprietary API, it wouldn't be much of a problem for developers to make games for all 3, assuming the API is not clumsy and difficult to support using existing development tools.
I think i can safely say that if AMD Mantle succeeds, NVIDIA will also create their own API, because i doubt they'll support AMD Mantle, besides, i don't think Mantle was even designed to do so. It's a low level API meant to support one thing and support that really well. Where D3D supports everything, but does that sort of average. And i don't think Intel will bother making their own, because they just aren't into gaming with their poor GPU's. And D3D will run existing stuff just as good as it does now.
I just have no clue what will this mean in long term. I love playing old games even decades later and no one really knows how well Mantle will be supported in such long run. I hope D3D support will still be available in all games for long term compatibility,s ince emulation is not an option like it was with Glide due to pixel shader usage which is just too complex to emulate and get any sorts of playable framerate out of it.
So there is that. I still think AMD Mantle is a brilliant idea for the current given gfx market situation of only 2 main gaming gfx vendors and one that is mostly focused on integrated solutions that basically just run the desktop and that's it. It wouldn't work 10 or 15 years ago though...
51.2Db! F that noise. It's nice that they're about $150 cheaper than a 780 but I'd say the fact that it's pulling about 300w under load, can't maintain it's reference clocks, and the fans require industrial hearing protection I'd rather spend the extra $150. At that point you can overclock a 780 and it'll still beat a 290x. So pretty much Mantle can suck a fat one until they manage to make their cards better.
More cool stuff from nvidia, YOU LOSE SIR! In all seriousness though, I'm really seeing no reason at all to go ATI apart from perhaps bang for buck right now.
The main problem with NVIDIA is that they are releasing bunch of useless rubbish to make it look like they have bunch of stuff to offer, but in reality they have nothing useful at all. And it has been like this for ages. Only useful thing they've released was FXAA support, but then again so does AMD have their MLAA which works superbly as well...
20 to 50 % perf increase and it isn't amd exclusive.
I'll believe it when I see it, both for the perf. increase, and nvidia actually surrendering their ass to AMD without a LOT of lube.
Also take all this Mantle talk with a grain of salt. AMD isn't known to make things efficient or bug-free.
When DX11 and OpenGL for this game become more optimized, they should make DX9 legacy.
Please be a bit more specific on the "requirement".
Also intel only accounts for 16% of gpu's. I think you meant cpu's where it accounts for 74%.
This is a hardware API and AMD is known to make good hardware.
Sure you're not talking about Unknown Worlds? The fact is, they know how to make best use of their hardware.
The other issue as other people have pointed out is that it's a return to the days of Glide. Those were not good days. There was a stupid amount of APIs developers had to program for their games. Games typically had anywhere from 3-6 APIs used, those being: OpenGL, Direct3D, Software Rendering, Glide, PowerVR, and one more I can't recall. Can you imagine how much work that is? PC gaming really took off because the list of APIs dropped down from 3-6 to 2, then to 1. It's far less work for a programmer, and as such more optimization can be put into the game that everyone will enjoy. Having more APIs will fragment optimization across different platforms. There won't just be Direct3D, OpenGL, and Mantle. Nvidia will come out with their own GPU specific API as well. Imagine the amount of bugs that will show up across the different renderers.
The very reason we ended up with GPU agnostic APIs like Direct3D and OpenGL is because developers got sick and tired of the GPU specific APIs of the 90s. It was not a consistent experience, and it required far more development resources.
I'm ultimately reserving judgement on Mantle and whatever Nvidia comes up with as we are after all over a decade since the last API mess, but I don't think this is a good idea.