I would love to see marine upgrades reattached to tech points.
As @IronHorse said, at the moment the game is a race. If a team reaches one tier before the other team, they win. There's little opportunity for comebacks.
Not really true. I have seen some spectacular games where a well timed alien attack wipes out a marine tech point and team that was going to win and vice versa.
I feel like you guys are playing an entirely different game than me. Yeah the balance and gameplay isn't perfect, but I still think NS2 does the FPS/RTS Genre WAY better than any other option out that by leaps and bounds.
Prove me wrong. What else out there in this genre even holds a candle to this game?
Yeah, there are a lot of useless abilities, and I don't quite understand that. Yeah, the ability tree is kind of linear.
Even still, the environment, gameplay, strategy, and overall quality of the game is amazing. Honestly, I think this community has come to expect too much from the developers. All I hear is bitching and complaining in this forum. Rarely ever are people grateful or thankful to the developers of this. And yet, I'll be my left nut most people here have gotten more time out of this $30 than they have on any other game of a similar or greater cost.
The fact of the matter is, no matter WHAT the developers do, it won't make everyone happy. SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy in the end. Even worse than that, I think the things people complain about the most in the forums aren't even what the game really needs.
Why does it matter how balanced or perfect the gameplay is (and I agree it could still use some improvement), if 90% of the games are one-sided stomps? It's like bandaging an elbow wound when you're bleeding from the chest cavity. Priorities people.
I would love to see marine upgrades reattached to tech points.
As @IronHorse said, at the moment the game is a race. If a team reaches one tier before the other team, they win. There's little opportunity for comebacks.
Attaching upgrades to TPs is a solid solution, but I've always felt that there was a better way.
I suggested a while ago in BT to scale marine upgrades based on their natural tech progression of AA and Proto Lab.
I'm sure the idea of having alien abilities researchable in any order, with stats like damage scaled depending on the order in which they're researched, to keep balance.
Seems like biomass is a great starting point for it, you could be able to choose 3 alien abilities per point of biomass (or whatever the average # of abilities unlocked by each biomass level is currently) and the effectiveness scaled as such.
What has actually ever come of this? Was it tested at any point? Is there some glaring reason why it wouldnt work in practice?
The freedom of the old ability system (before they were tied to structures) that left room for creative plays and a meta of counter-teching your opponents is something I greatly miss from a few months ago
Yeah, the reason why the old system didn't work was because most of the abilities weren't needed, so you would see the comm research bile bomb and blink and call it a day. The aliens needed barely any tres to max out the tech that they actually needed to win the game
I thought A2/W2 with 1 tech point, and A3/W3 on 2 tech points. This way, the marines will have to push out at some stage and hold the 2nd tech point.
Yeah, because getting A3/W3 without being able to even get to a second tech point wins or even has any effect on the game overall.
*slow clap*
Actually, I think upgrades cost too much and appear too late. It's very hard to have a2w2 by the time the first fade is out, and a1w1 by the time the first lerk is out, unless you start with an arms lab and constantly upgrade or shamelessly stack the teams and constantly have 5-6 RTs with little to no loss of any - which is what I generally do, at the expense of the "early PG" I see in 98.43% of pub games, with 69% confidence. Many timing problems in this game, sadly, and hard to balance when a noob with a lerk or a fade present little problem for an average player, while someone really good with a lerk or a fade can more or less keep an entire average marine team in their starting room, with a bit of help from his team obviously.
Well, actually, drifter management is in fact the most annoying part of alien commanding, if you're playing marine.
The most annoying part of alien commanding is seeing people who don't know what they're doing or what they should be doing as a gorge and seeing failure in every situation where you would've succeeded if you weren't watching from above with tears in your skulky eyes (since you don't get 20res to evolve gorge anymore, so no gorge tears).
That's also the most annoying part of marine commanding, but there it's much worse because you can also sink res into hopeless players without any benefit, and you get to watch phase gates die which is always a lot of fun.
They do win, lul. Have you seen a game where marines couldn't get out of their starting room, and then magically won when they got a3w3 45 minutes into the game on their 1 RT? Neither have I.
I'm discounting the stupidities around sales or NS2 release where rounds went on for an hour and a half average. Those weren't really games.
Well, actually, drifter management is in fact the most annoying part of alien commanding, if you're playing marine.
The most annoying part of alien commanding is seeing people who don't know what they're doing or what they should be doing as a gorge and seeing failure in every situation where you would've succeeded if you weren't watching from above with tears in your skulky eyes (since you don't get 20res to evolve gorge anymore, so no gorge tears).
That's also the most annoying part of marine commanding, but there it's much worse because you can also sink res into hopeless players without any benefit, and you get to watch phase gates die which is always a lot of fun.
I meant good drifter management is one of the most annoying things to encounter as a marine player.
The a downside of the old ability system (which was more the result of the abilities themselves) was that some abilities were never researched.
Yes and now we still have the same problem, (instead of not being researched they're just not used) but with choice and variety removed.
Oh and the detachment of tech was also supposed to have been for "more come backs" which is funny considering how the change led to the creation of stronger end game tech to account for it's byproduct of turtling... Completely counteracting and nullifying it's intended purpose.
Both changes have failed in my eyes.
Can we change it back now please?
@IronHorse I really don't think you should be able to comeback after being smacked down due to a sudden tech unlock. The only comeback that should be possible is ninja surprise moves like a phase gate that allows you to instantly take out a hive with a full team in 10s or so knocking alien tech way back down. Likewise, a really well placed tunnel allowing a base rush (had to try really hard not to say bile bomb, fuck those little win machines). So even if you get jetpacks out when being REALLY behind, that is, you only have 2 tech points to aliens 3, you shouldn't be able to suddenly turn the game around. Same goes for any alien tech where you're in a similar situation (btw 2 marine tech points to 3 alien (fully built hives) is the same as 1 alien tech point to marines 3/4).
tldr; strategy should be able to make comebacks, not tech.
Any tactic that should allow that much of an advantage and was always available (meaning detached from tech) would probably be utilized all the time and would be frequently seen. Meaning it would be more than likely have to be toned down to evenly match all other tactics, (to include downsides like risks) and at best just be what we already experience in regards to possible outcomes in any given match, tactically. Thus not having very good chances of fulfilling it's role as providing more frequent successful come backs.
This is why tech is relied on - its part of that RTS impact. You're right to target it in a way, as It is doubly rewarding already / creates a slippery slope, in the sense that it can easily make the better team even better. But does getting rid of this not just make it an fps? Don't exosuits and fades need to be something that is unlocked?
Without tech being responsible for comebacks, everything must be balanced to one another from the get go, and you are basically relegated to creating a class based shooter (TF2?)
Lastly, why shouldnt you be able to "suddenly turn the game around" or "comeback after being smacked down" ?
Why impose artificial and masked time limits?
Why have such arbitrary restrictions?
Why not just let the gameplay allow for open variance?
Surely someone who enjoys players' expressions of tactical decisions in the game would appreciate not having a round timer "Just because." ?
If you start winning after unlocking tech, it wasn't a comeback. You were always in a good position to win. The type of comeback from tech I'm talking about and do not want to see is marines/aliens sitting in one tech point turtling away then suddenly walking out of base in super gear and winning the game. Mind you the turtling shouldn't have happened but still.
I'm discounting the stupidities around sales or NS2 release where rounds went on for an hour and a half average. Those weren't really games.
I don't mind longer games tbh. most of ns1 had long matches. always BC of epic fights. always back an forth. kept everyone on their toes.
on topic, I think the whole multiple cc idea works. commander would have to micromanage all ccs and marines that depend on health packs. that being said, I think changing marines will fix the issues cited above. the alien tech tree just needs changes. IMO gorge tunnels do not seem to even be near as easy to use as pgs... and the comm can beacon and send everyone there.
if you want to change the marine upgrades, then make the number of arms labs give u the ability to move to lvl 3 weapons and armor. or decrease costs and decrease the increase n armor and DMG. getting w1 and a2 is easy enough to kill a fade with a couple of others. once shotties and w2 are done, most lifeforms die easily. nerve gas can lower the armor of aliens, making onos easy to kill with w2. w3 and nerve gas can decimate even a cpl fades and a backup gorge.
if you want a fast pace game then play a combat server or make a closer hybrid of classic and combat mod.
I dislike the idea of requiring marines to hold multiple tech points to tech up. Fully tech alien>fully tech rines. Such that aliens focus is on control of tech points and marine focus is on denial. If you require 2 tech points aliens will simply work towards denial instead of control...
I thought A2/W2 with 1 tech point, and A3/W3 on 2 tech points. This way, the marines will have to push out at some stage and hold the 2nd tech point.
Yeah, because getting A3/W3 without being able to even get to a second tech point wins or even has any effect on the game overall.
*slow clap*
Actually, I think upgrades cost too much and appear too late. It's very hard to have a2w2 by the time the first fade is out, and a1w1 by the time the first lerk is out, unless you start with an arms lab and constantly upgrade or shamelessly stack the teams and constantly have 5-6 RTs with little to no loss of any - which is what I generally do, at the expense of the "early PG" I see in 98.43% of pub games, with 69% confidence. Many timing problems in this game, sadly, and hard to balance when a noob with a lerk or a fade present little problem for an average player, while someone really good with a lerk or a fade can more or less keep an entire average marine team in their starting room, with a bit of help from his team obviously.
Well, actually, drifter management is in fact the most annoying part of alien commanding, if you're playing marine.
The most annoying part of alien commanding is seeing people who don't know what they're doing or what they should be doing as a gorge and seeing failure in every situation where you would've succeeded if you weren't watching from above with tears in your skulky eyes (since you don't get 20res to evolve gorge anymore, so no gorge tears).
That's also the most annoying part of marine commanding, but there it's much worse because you can also sink res into hopeless players without any benefit, and you get to watch phase gates die which is always a lot of fun.
thats the joy of playing in pubs (and its unpredictability). I love the fact that when people (your team) do listen to your tactic and it pay offs, you get this rush of a job well done. This game is still the only one I have played that after a good match, everyone is genuinely saying gg and wp on both teams (yes even the losing team). Other games people just swear and call the other team noobs etc... As to upgrades costing too much, I have noticed tech coming really really slow due to cost (drags out the early game), but I think that is also the point, you have to hold ground to get your upgrades in good time. I agree a good fade does tend to screw you over, that is why you go for SG instead of w1 (more burst damage). Because an early fade is not likely to have alot of biomass or upgrades to take on 1sg and 2 marines without support.
I dislike the idea of requiring marines to hold multiple tech points to tech up. Fully tech alien>fully tech rines. Such that aliens focus is on control of tech points and marine focus is on denial. If you require 2 tech points aliens will simply work towards denial instead of control...
Whilst the Aliens must expand to gain additional hives to unlock more abilities (biomass), the marines generally do not have this requirement. If they deny the Alien hives, meaning the marines are holding it, why not tie one of their upgrades to it (A3/W3) so that they must hold the location. AS it is, if marines are holding 2 TP, and its a base race (ie. Aliens are taking out the 2nd TP marines are holding, and Marines are at a hive to kill it). Its a no brainer to trade bases as the marines only lose a little ground, but the Aliens lose alot more once a hive goes down. So it is asymmetrical at that point.
Back in the day... Marines needed 2TP to get the Proto, and that was really harsh as a come back was pretty much impossible. I think the 1 TP proto is working well, but there should still be an incentive for the marines to hold a 2nd TP besides denial for aliens (ie. A3/W3).
Comments
Not really true. I have seen some spectacular games where a well timed alien attack wipes out a marine tech point and team that was going to win and vice versa.
Prove me wrong. What else out there in this genre even holds a candle to this game?
Yeah, there are a lot of useless abilities, and I don't quite understand that. Yeah, the ability tree is kind of linear.
Even still, the environment, gameplay, strategy, and overall quality of the game is amazing. Honestly, I think this community has come to expect too much from the developers. All I hear is bitching and complaining in this forum. Rarely ever are people grateful or thankful to the developers of this. And yet, I'll be my left nut most people here have gotten more time out of this $30 than they have on any other game of a similar or greater cost.
The fact of the matter is, no matter WHAT the developers do, it won't make everyone happy. SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy in the end. Even worse than that, I think the things people complain about the most in the forums aren't even what the game really needs.
Why does it matter how balanced or perfect the gameplay is (and I agree it could still use some improvement), if 90% of the games are one-sided stomps? It's like bandaging an elbow wound when you're bleeding from the chest cavity. Priorities people.
Attaching upgrades to TPs is a solid solution, but I've always felt that there was a better way.
I suggested a while ago in BT to scale marine upgrades based on their natural tech progression of AA and Proto Lab.
I.E.
W1/A1 available from start
W2/A2 available with AA
W3/A3 available with Proto Lab
Seems like biomass is a great starting point for it, you could be able to choose 3 alien abilities per point of biomass (or whatever the average # of abilities unlocked by each biomass level is currently) and the effectiveness scaled as such.
What has actually ever come of this? Was it tested at any point? Is there some glaring reason why it wouldnt work in practice?
The freedom of the old ability system (before they were tied to structures) that left room for creative plays and a meta of counter-teching your opponents is something I greatly miss from a few months ago
Yeah, because getting A3/W3 without being able to even get to a second tech point wins or even has any effect on the game overall.
*slow clap*
Actually, I think upgrades cost too much and appear too late. It's very hard to have a2w2 by the time the first fade is out, and a1w1 by the time the first lerk is out, unless you start with an arms lab and constantly upgrade or shamelessly stack the teams and constantly have 5-6 RTs with little to no loss of any - which is what I generally do, at the expense of the "early PG" I see in 98.43% of pub games, with 69% confidence. Many timing problems in this game, sadly, and hard to balance when a noob with a lerk or a fade present little problem for an average player, while someone really good with a lerk or a fade can more or less keep an entire average marine team in their starting room, with a bit of help from his team obviously.
The most annoying part of alien commanding is seeing people who don't know what they're doing or what they should be doing as a gorge and seeing failure in every situation where you would've succeeded if you weren't watching from above with tears in your skulky eyes (since you don't get 20res to evolve gorge anymore, so no gorge tears).
That's also the most annoying part of marine commanding, but there it's much worse because you can also sink res into hopeless players without any benefit, and you get to watch phase gates die which is always a lot of fun.
RIP. 15/25/35.
Agree though, if marines don't even have a 2nd tech point, and the aliens have four (three on veil) hives, they shouldn't be able to win regardless.
I'm discounting the stupidities around sales or NS2 release where rounds went on for an hour and a half average. Those weren't really games.
I meant good drifter management is one of the most annoying things to encounter as a marine player.
Oh and the detachment of tech was also supposed to have been for "more come backs" which is funny considering how the change led to the creation of stronger end game tech to account for it's byproduct of turtling... Completely counteracting and nullifying it's intended purpose.
Both changes have failed in my eyes.
Can we change it back now please?
It'd be funny if we ultimately wound up with them auto-researched as biomass increased or better yet, at each new hive
and hive sight...
and aliens ability underused in general (late web
and OP mucous :$
A lot of things are still missing in this game.
tldr; strategy should be able to make comebacks, not tech.
Eh...
Any tactic that should allow that much of an advantage and was always available (meaning detached from tech) would probably be utilized all the time and would be frequently seen. Meaning it would be more than likely have to be toned down to evenly match all other tactics, (to include downsides like risks) and at best just be what we already experience in regards to possible outcomes in any given match, tactically. Thus not having very good chances of fulfilling it's role as providing more frequent successful come backs.
This is why tech is relied on - its part of that RTS impact. You're right to target it in a way, as It is doubly rewarding already / creates a slippery slope, in the sense that it can easily make the better team even better. But does getting rid of this not just make it an fps? Don't exosuits and fades need to be something that is unlocked?
Without tech being responsible for comebacks, everything must be balanced to one another from the get go, and you are basically relegated to creating a class based shooter (TF2?)
Lastly, why shouldnt you be able to "suddenly turn the game around" or "comeback after being smacked down" ?
Why impose artificial and masked time limits?
Why have such arbitrary restrictions?
Why not just let the gameplay allow for open variance?
Surely someone who enjoys players' expressions of tactical decisions in the game would appreciate not having a round timer "Just because." ?
I can agree with that
I don't mind longer games tbh. most of ns1 had long matches. always BC of epic fights. always back an forth. kept everyone on their toes.
on topic, I think the whole multiple cc idea works. commander would have to micromanage all ccs and marines that depend on health packs. that being said, I think changing marines will fix the issues cited above. the alien tech tree just needs changes. IMO gorge tunnels do not seem to even be near as easy to use as pgs... and the comm can beacon and send everyone there.
if you want to change the marine upgrades, then make the number of arms labs give u the ability to move to lvl 3 weapons and armor. or decrease costs and decrease the increase n armor and DMG. getting w1 and a2 is easy enough to kill a fade with a couple of others. once shotties and w2 are done, most lifeforms die easily. nerve gas can lower the armor of aliens, making onos easy to kill with w2. w3 and nerve gas can decimate even a cpl fades and a backup gorge.
if you want a fast pace game then play a combat server or make a closer hybrid of classic and combat mod.
thats the joy of playing in pubs (and its unpredictability). I love the fact that when people (your team) do listen to your tactic and it pay offs, you get this rush of a job well done. This game is still the only one I have played that after a good match, everyone is genuinely saying gg and wp on both teams (yes even the losing team). Other games people just swear and call the other team noobs etc... As to upgrades costing too much, I have noticed tech coming really really slow due to cost (drags out the early game), but I think that is also the point, you have to hold ground to get your upgrades in good time. I agree a good fade does tend to screw you over, that is why you go for SG instead of w1 (more burst damage). Because an early fade is not likely to have alot of biomass or upgrades to take on 1sg and 2 marines without support.
Whilst the Aliens must expand to gain additional hives to unlock more abilities (biomass), the marines generally do not have this requirement. If they deny the Alien hives, meaning the marines are holding it, why not tie one of their upgrades to it (A3/W3) so that they must hold the location. AS it is, if marines are holding 2 TP, and its a base race (ie. Aliens are taking out the 2nd TP marines are holding, and Marines are at a hive to kill it). Its a no brainer to trade bases as the marines only lose a little ground, but the Aliens lose alot more once a hive goes down. So it is asymmetrical at that point.
Back in the day... Marines needed 2TP to get the Proto, and that was really harsh as a come back was pretty much impossible. I think the 1 TP proto is working well, but there should still be an incentive for the marines to hold a 2nd TP besides denial for aliens (ie. A3/W3).