Reduce starting PRES to 15.
Omega_K2
Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Reduce starting PRES to 15
I feel like that would fix some of the public balance issues right now.
- Gorge tunnel is sightly delayed, prevents locking down some positions in the first minute
- Lerk come out later when there is actually armor/shotties as counter, so they can't just rape marines instantly
- First Fade / Onos also sightly delayed, though that should not be that much of an issue, as most of the res for them actually comes from RTs
- On marines... not that much of a change, except that you can't rush shotgun, but that's not really used in public only in competive
Can't say I've played any competive matches recently, so I don't know it will be affected, might make it a bit hard against people with very good aim (I've played with pubs with good aim, and they're definetly struggeling as marine until later in the game, so I feel like only top-tier shooters might be an issue).
I feel like that would fix some of the public balance issues right now.
- Gorge tunnel is sightly delayed, prevents locking down some positions in the first minute
- Lerk come out later when there is actually armor/shotties as counter, so they can't just rape marines instantly
- First Fade / Onos also sightly delayed, though that should not be that much of an issue, as most of the res for them actually comes from RTs
- On marines... not that much of a change, except that you can't rush shotgun, but that's not really used in public only in competive
Can't say I've played any competive matches recently, so I don't know it will be affected, might make it a bit hard against people with very good aim (I've played with pubs with good aim, and they're definetly struggeling as marine until later in the game, so I feel like only top-tier shooters might be an issue).
Comments
The game is slowly shifting to the point where marines have choke aliens to a low RT count already, slowing the process of getting lifeforms to the field will only make it worse.
From marine side, it would completely negate sg rushes, which is something i like tbh. But it really doesn't matter for marines one bit if its 20 or 15 for anything else.
- I don't think Gorge Tunnels are really a balance issue right now, sure you can secure a place like nano or locker quickly but marines should be responding by either a big attack or taking every other location.
- Lerks are only dominant in pub games, they get owned by really good players. If they come out too late then they can become redundant without upgrades vs shotguns. I believe that Lerk's are designed to give aliens a little breathing room from constant aggression that can't be solved with basic skulks. They should give a little more map control in favor of aliens.
- Delaying fades, I really don't know what this would do to competitive balance because fades aren't strong enough at the moment and they need too come out fast or have their 81 damage back. If fades are out before +2 armor + 2 weaps then they can start pushing marines back and secure a second hive safely.
- Delaying Onos, same idea with fades but less so.
I see this game as taking advantage of your tech at certain points in the game. Given equal skill teams of say division 2-3. This seems to be the most consistent meta.
- Aliens start at a small disadvantage, difficult to take more than 3-4 RTs at once, hard to secure a second base. Marines pour on aggression and take most of the map.
- Lerks give aliens time to secure a base, secure RTs and push back aggression that normal skulks can't do and start to put pressure on RTs + bases by spiking mines and picking off and chipping marines.
- Marines start to push back and possibly kill lerks gaining small advantage again, retake RTs and pour on aggression once more, phase gates possibly out and +1 weap/armor at least.
- Fades are out, start decimating marine forces, for a brief time, aliens have free reign over the map in terms of aggression, marines forced into defense. Second hive most likely secured.
- Shotguns are out, force fades to back off much more and play passively, start to be aggressive again, game equalises for a time but marines slowly pull ahead.
Etc, etc. Point being that it's difficult to assess what sort of impact these balance changes have in both competitive and public play. It could barely have an effect or could completely break the game in favor of marines.
Addressing that would require more elaborate changes to the game. I think there are plently of things I don't like about ns2 currently, but being on a few RTS sucks for both teams, since everything costs res. Many people were opposed energy in the past, but I actually liked it for some things as it removed some of the res-related issues, now it's rather stale, removal made slippery slope in terms of res just worse.
But regarding the pres, maybe skulks would have to guard RTs actually then and not just wait until lerk is up.
Just raise the pres cost of life forms up to where they were before. Lerk 30 res, fade 50, onos 75, and give tunnels research cost. IMO this would be good for balance and would allow the life forms to also have their stats increased and become more powerful (like the fade won't be useless anymore).
EDIT: Not for changing pres to 15 at all btw.
Okey so, comp games or most games really, aim is subject to how good you are, but you can only do so much as your computer can handle. Most of the scene is just tackling with low fps setups that it seems harder to kill stuff than they actually are.
As it is, you've got a small minigame of for skulks you dont need upgrades, but when lerks come out a1/w1+ will be of great help, and from that the delay to fades and onos, is so high that as long as you can squeeze in the res for w2+w3, those lifeforms just melt when engaged. So aliens need not only to try to keep marine res flow low enough, so they cant tech up too fast, but keep their own up to get those lifeforms faster. This pres change would effectively slow those lifeforms even more, making it harder for the alien team to negate all that tech before all their lifeforms are up.
Personally, i'm quite fond of the gameplay where it's not a "game over" moment once aliens get lifeforms. You actually need to make proper gameplay moves to win rounds instead of just sitting on your bases/rts and letting your fades/onos kill everyone without much risk of dying.
#improvetheengine
Although even said that many pub players save up until they have 90 res, so...
So lets look at the only closely matched teams you will ever see - comp / pug games.
I think early game is fine right now, its late game that needs attention, especially in comp games. You basically never see Onos / Exos in comp games because JP + sg / fade / lerk is so effective in the right hands, the game is over once one team loses its upgraded players. If anyone does ever go Onos it almost always gets chased down and killed by someone with a jetpack and comm support. I've been playing Pugs lately and I feel like a noob again, I am happy if I can get a 1:1 KD ratio.. but I have been going back to pubs just so I can actually use onos / exo again. They are fun to play but you just don't see them in pugs. I think the one time I did go Onos in a pug as soon as I showed my face the entire team chased at me with shotguns & jps and took me out in like 3 seconds lol.. guess I needed to hide in the base behind some whips to stay alive, or have a gorge constantly heal spraying me? What a waste of pres and player time that is, our team would be much more powerful with another fade + lerk on the field. Personally I think something needs to be done so that you actually start seeing these units used in pugs / comp games. Make them faster, or more resistant to small arms fire or something, otherwise whats the point?
Terrible idea. Pub players can't effectively use those lifeforms, and cannot keep them too, bar maybe onos. Increasing pres lifeform cost is the single worst thing to do to aggravate the problem. Most pub players spend their time playing skulks anyway. Why punish them even more, and give them less chances to train with those fades and lerks?
We could give the fade back it's 300 health and 150 armor, and/or give aliens the Focus ability back.
Granted biomass makes this thing sort of weird now.
It should be 16 not 15..
Reason: that matches the ratio of change which accompanied the lowered lifeform costs (all except the gorge which was later modified)
50 pres fade reduced to 40 pres = 20% reduction - so 20 pres reduced to 16 also = 20% reduction
Important to note that the lowered lifeform costs were to make the game more forgiving and less frustrating because you were able to repurchase your lifeform sooner.
@nexus so this means that A2 and W2 costs could just as easily be adjusted to accommodate midgame timings.
When the costs were lowered it was deemed that the price of upgrades would offset the impact, but the truth is, that people will often evolve to that lifeform as soon as possible even without upgrades, because a fade is still pretty impacting...
Thus the timings were thrown off and our early game has been shortened.
If that is touched, I would NOT touch A/W upgrade cost.
Alternatively, make A/W upgrades cheaper if you insist on 20.
Ehm no, it's never been "balanced", and while current balance is not too bad in terms of win ratios (55:45) it's still lacking on many levels.
Secondly the devs don't think about everything involved either. NS2 has a well-known history of very poor "balance" patches. UWE has released balance patches against the advisory of playtesters (as in, UWE disagreed with PTs).
A2/W2 is required to counter fades (as are shotguns), and fade comes out before both is on level 2 usually. Very often I see A1/W1 when fades rolling out. And even then, even an avarage fade will easily stall marines.
Try combat mod.
Your suggestion would not work very well. Marines need to construct buildings (and do research), and all aliens just all go onos right away and rush the marines, resulting in the game being over in about 1 minute. /obvious flaw
Reminds me of the "land only all research" games on supcom2, and my vehement hatred for allowing 10 year olds to "customize" a carefully-tuned as far as cost/time RTS, thus wrecking it into an oblivion of prepubescent drool.
Would a battle between 11 exos and 7-8 oni with a few gorges and lerks be fun? Maybe. For about 1 minute, and lulz like those belong where they are right now - in "sv_cheats 1" territory.
In essence, all my fuckings go out to you for even suggesting that this would be something that's even closely related to being called a "game mode."
Honestly I don't really care about balancing for pubs. I was trying to find some kind of a compromise that helps competitive while giving pub a bit more of a chance. (Unless they're THAT unskilled in which case I say get better).
I could actually be for some tweaking of pres income though.
Tbh, I think pub players can more effectively use those lifeforms than they can kill them. Maybe not brand new players, but certainly the average pub player.
Slowly shifting? That's been the primary strategy since release.