So uhh... Just to summarize a bit, does everyone agree that we should have a few (like 10% dunno) UWE servers as rookie only servers for people with <100hrs on the game?
someone make a tutorial and strategy guide for large servers. basically, teach them how to play on the large pub servers. then point out how much it differs depending on how low the server count is. just give them more information. they can choose between 6v6 and 12v12 and understand the change in strategy.that'll fill the smaller servers... and shouldn't affect the larger ones; they are usually full and theres like 10 ppl spamming refresh.
ronpaul2012?
on the topic... the world has dickheads. then add the internet. that dickhead can claim to b whomoever or whatever he wants... add competition so the dickhead will be tar getting another player... then add leet game nerd... this gives the dickhead a sense of pride in a game they play well.
so u get a regular dickhead to become anonymous, competitive, and better than most people in the game. this will lead to trash talk. not always the case.. but the people uve ran into were those people.
in conclusion, I am very tired and very... medicated. oh and jerks exist everywhere, especially in online games. jerks make me grumpy :-<
@nexus: darkling suggested taw, which is a good suggestion for someone looking for more organised and fair games that are still casual. Taw is huge and only has a handful of competitive players, it was a good suggestion for the op.
taw has a community AND a competitive group. Meaning that you can ignore competitive forever and still be part of the community.
Dont quote me on the next since I did not ask them personally, but for example UKT also started as a community and now have a comp group.
On another note, uwe is (slowly?) working on a way to use hive to balance and there are other mods made or in the making doing the same.
This topic has been discussed to death in the Vet forum. The arguments boil down to this:
Despite PuGs and Clans existing there are not enough players for skilled players to only play against each other and avoid public/rookie friendly games. I think we all are aware of how tiny our community is, and I think this is a reasonable point. Veteran players see this issue as "they don't want us to play the game" when in reality the public community would like them to dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Veteran gamers who pubstomp aren't helping community retention at all, in fact some believe they are actively participating in the death of the game. Any number of arguments have been presented including the "rookie players will see us elites as role models and will work hard to play and surpass our skill" but what really happens is that a couple vets end up on the same team going 40:2, the server empties out, and we fail at player retention. Some server admins believe it's worth kicking veteran players for just to maintain their player numbers.
The way I see it is that the community needs to self regulate if it wants to grow. If an admin kicks vets it sends a bad message, because you play to well you should not be allowed to play. If Vets pubstomp then it damages our community, creatign a significant skill barrier for noobs. Really if you're playing against a good team feel free to lay into them, give them a real challenge. If you're seeing a bunch of noobs make noob mistakes, back off and play a support role, help guide the new players.
Noone like to be restricted in their enjoyment, but I think that if there is a focus on growing the community now, then you will see more veteran and elite players int he future.
This topic has been discussed to death in the Vet forum. The arguments boil down to this:
Despite PuGs and Clans existing there are not enough players for skilled players to only play against each other and avoid public/rookie friendly games. I think we all are aware of how tiny our community is, and I think this is a reasonable point. Veteran players see this issue as "they don't want us to play the game" when in reality the public community would like them to dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Veteran gamers who pubstomp aren't helping community retention at all, in fact some believe they are actively participating in the death of the game. Any number of arguments have been presented including the "rookie players will see us elites as role models and will work hard to play and surpass our skill" but what really happens is that a couple vets end up on the same team going 40:2, the server empties out, and we fail at player retention. Some server admins believe it's worth kicking veteran players for just to maintain their player numbers.
The way I see it is that the community needs to self regulate if it wants to grow. If an admin kicks vets it sends a bad message, because you play to well you should not be allowed to play. If Vets pubstomp then it damages our community, creatign a significant skill barrier for noobs. Really if you're playing against a good team feel free to lay into them, give them a real challenge. If you're seeing a bunch of noobs make noob mistakes, back off and play a support role, help guide the new players.
Noone like to be restricted in their enjoyment, but I think that if there is a focus on growing the community now, then you will see more veteran and elite players int he future.
when dfa still had an active server they would handle it by moving people, or organizing captain games. and generally people states where assigned. if they still have an active server... I really need to post in the bug section because I haven't seen it in a while, and thus has happened before.
...dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Its a societal norm that stems from tribal times, that those who "do not play well with others" are pointed out, disliked, and often exiled or pushed away from the group... for very good reason.
In this community, those who are able to "dial it back" and "limit their play" are heralded as some of the best members this community has to offer, and a true inspiration for rookies. (here's looking at you @virsoul )
...dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Its a societal norm that stems from tribal times, that those who "do not play well with others" are pointed out, disliked, and often exiled or pushed away from the group... for very good reason.
In this community, those who are able to "dial it back" and "limit their play" are heralded as some of the best members this community has to offer, and a true inspiration for rookies. (here's looking at you @virsoul )
Very well said post, btw, Tova..
I also enjoyed reading your contribution, both of you Iron and Dark
When you are playing against a team of bad players as an alien, you don't go fade to stomp them even more. Stay skulk, or go gorge. It's even more fun and challenging.
Wen you play as a marine against bad aliens, don't use your lmg until fades are up. Remember you got a pistol. Jetpacks are up ? don't buy them. Shotgun are up to counter fades ? Practice your lmg tracking.
We are waiting for an effective matchmaking system. It will hopefully lessen the pubstomping. Meanwhile, in pubs, play smart : lessen the impact of your skill without losing fun...
...dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Its a societal norm that stems from tribal times, that those who "do not play well with others" are pointed out, disliked, and often exiled or pushed away from the group... for very good reason.
In this community, those who are able to "dial it back" and "limit their play" are heralded as some of the best members this community has to offer, and a true inspiration for rookies. (here's looking at you @virsoul )
Very well said post, btw, Tova..
for someone "dialing it back" he sure shoots me in the face accurately enough
When you are playing against a team of bad players as an alien, you don't go fade to stomp them even more. Stay skulk, or go gorge. It's even more fun and challenging.
Wen you play as a marine against bad aliens, don't use your lmg until fades are up. Remember you got a pistol. Jetpacks are up ? don't buy them. Shotgun are up to counter fades ? Practice your lmg tracking.
We are waiting for an effective matchmaking system. It will hopefully lessen the pubstomping. Meanwhile, in pubs, play smart : lessen the impact of your skill without losing fun...
just had a game last night where it was a pure teamwork win. aliens were converging and hitting targets well, and together. two pronged attacks up the wazoo. with one veteran on the other team vs two on ours. that I felt the tag could apply to at any rate. still got accused of stacking. but only one guy. here's a question. what actually constitutes stacking? that game, I felt marines were in a pretty decent position, until they completely failed to respond to departures phase going down and lost all map presence on that side. how lopsided do the scores need to be? because I must say, even small skill discrepancies may lead to pretty lopsided scores at end game.
Most of the instances of 'stacking' people think of when they talk about stacking are't actually stacking. At least not intentionally.
Even a modestly skilled ns2 player can decimate a team of newbies, and what with RTS style snowballing mechanics it only takes a small gap in skill to make a game 'stacked'.
Indeed, newbies even tend to exacerbate the problem by stacking one side or the other- experienced players seem to be less bothered what team they're playing for and in these cases actually join the less stacked team (in terms of player numbers).
I know this sure as hell happens to me plenty in ready rooms:
"hey, go aliens dude otherwise this games gonna be stacked as hell"
*no response, continues to wiggle around the 'MARINES' sign*
"ah well this games never going to start unless I join aliens.."
- one-side stomp continues, player that wanted to join marines so badly RQs and is never seen again...
Basically, my 2 cents is that you should stop ripping on 'competitive' players for 'stacking', because most of the time stubborn greenrines are just as much the cause of the problem.
Even with a rating system / MM, when I play games like LOL for example, only perhaps 1/5 games is a 'good' one with balance and teamwork- about the same ratio I find in NS2. Elo isnt just a magic cure-all for imbalances. I don't know what the cure-all is but heyho.
Just thought, what if we calculate a rudimentary odds of winning for each team (with current members, based on hive stats?) and display it in the ready room. I don't think people REALLY want stacked games and if they could see the effect on the winning% they have from joining a certain team they will at least have some feedback on their actions and think twice about it. I'm a big fan of self-organisation.
just had a game last night where it was a pure teamwork win. aliens were converging and hitting targets well, and together. two pronged attacks up the wazoo. with one veteran on the other team vs two on ours. that I felt the tag could apply to at any rate. still got accused of stacking. but only one guy. here's a question. what actually constitutes stacking? that game, I felt marines were in a pretty decent position, until they completely failed to respond to departures phase going down and lost all map presence on that side. how lopsided do the scores need to be? because I must say, even small skill discrepancies may lead to pretty lopsided scores at end game.
When it's deliberate. When you've see 3 rounds of losses and the other team Has been the same Team setup. When you can "call" the game within the first minute due to a (s)team roll.
When you notice two tagged players never letting go of their holding hands. Some of these people play together competitively all the time - most ppl have already over 800 hours and they use "well, I just want to play with my friends" is a sad sad reason to ruin 8(15) other people's fun.
Basically, my 2 cents is that you should stop ripping on 'competitive' players for 'stacking', because most of the time stubborn greenrines are just as much the cause of the problem.
While I don't agree with the 2nd part of your sentence, I really think you got a point : people must stop foscus on comp/tagged players. If the skill difference is big enough, every player can completely ruin a game.
Those guys just don't ask themselves "hey, I killed 3 skulks with one magazine on my first engagement. Shoult I only play with my pistol ? Should I play in a support role ? Shoul I find a more skilled server ?".
--> Usually they stay in the same server and decide to crush the opponents even more....
Noone can/should prevent godlike skilled people to play a game they like/love. But if they can't apply themselves a bit of self discipline (call it whatever you want).....well.....you can see the result in every pub server (some exceptions).
I just came from an apparent obvious stack. In fact, 1 particular person went back to readyroom, waited for "even teams" and proceeded to join up on his friends side to pub stomp. I noticed this as the game was starting, so I organized a base rush instead and we, very much like I guessed, were decimated. Made the game 10 seconds for you though.
And when I asked why they stacked, "it's all for the K/D ratio man(2x)" "I like to win"(2x) "everyone does it(10x people said this"
But do you know what we ALL can agree on, winner or losers, especially in the 99% pub world, we all want to have fun and have good challenging, strategic games.
(Ok, New people don't provide that early on, and there are not many of them left still...)
I display the "Clan Tag" early rant mainly because they are the driving force behind getting NS2 publicity, and Hugh, I'm sure is looking for devices to keeping the newest playerbase from leaving. But this extends way further than NS2, and everyone agrees on that, the general consensus is gamers are narcissistic at best, but something abou NS2 brings out an experience way deeper than K/D or Win, but the close calls, the good teamwork and push/pulls of the game; You don't get that with very apparent stacks. The game sucks (currently pub, comp is fun to watch, I wonder why - maybe cause Divisions?)
So, maybe this is a plea to the NS2 Gamers, change up your attitude that "this mentality won't change" "Everyone does it" - NS2 already promotes amazing opportunities for teamwork & communication, something you don't hear in any other games like CoD although they are team fps games - Let's take NS2 further into the rank of being possibly the most well respected, good sportsmanship communities, because well frankly, the victim will be the game.
I hope I inspired some of you to start taking action and turn this hurt train back around to Successville and show the WC that we are not like the rest, respect of the game and player, something my coaches taught me long ago
Comments
ronpaul2012?
on the topic... the world has dickheads. then add the internet. that dickhead can claim to b whomoever or whatever he wants... add competition so the dickhead will be tar getting another player... then add leet game nerd... this gives the dickhead a sense of pride in a game they play well.
so u get a regular dickhead to become anonymous, competitive, and better than most people in the game. this will lead to trash talk. not always the case.. but the people uve ran into were those people.
in conclusion, I am very tired and very... medicated. oh and jerks exist everywhere, especially in online games. jerks make me grumpy :-<
taw has a community AND a competitive group. Meaning that you can ignore competitive forever and still be part of the community.
Dont quote me on the next since I did not ask them personally, but for example UKT also started as a community and now have a comp group.
On another note, uwe is (slowly?) working on a way to use hive to balance and there are other mods made or in the making doing the same.
Despite PuGs and Clans existing there are not enough players for skilled players to only play against each other and avoid public/rookie friendly games. I think we all are aware of how tiny our community is, and I think this is a reasonable point. Veteran players see this issue as "they don't want us to play the game" when in reality the public community would like them to dial it back a bit, promote lesser roles on the team, and help support new players. People are people, and everyone has their own interests and many veteran players don't want to be limited in their play.
Veteran gamers who pubstomp aren't helping community retention at all, in fact some believe they are actively participating in the death of the game. Any number of arguments have been presented including the "rookie players will see us elites as role models and will work hard to play and surpass our skill" but what really happens is that a couple vets end up on the same team going 40:2, the server empties out, and we fail at player retention. Some server admins believe it's worth kicking veteran players for just to maintain their player numbers.
The way I see it is that the community needs to self regulate if it wants to grow. If an admin kicks vets it sends a bad message, because you play to well you should not be allowed to play. If Vets pubstomp then it damages our community, creatign a significant skill barrier for noobs. Really if you're playing against a good team feel free to lay into them, give them a real challenge. If you're seeing a bunch of noobs make noob mistakes, back off and play a support role, help guide the new players.
Noone like to be restricted in their enjoyment, but I think that if there is a focus on growing the community now, then you will see more veteran and elite players int he future.
when dfa still had an active server they would handle it by moving people, or organizing captain games. and generally people states where assigned. if they still have an active server... I really need to post in the bug section because I haven't seen it in a while, and thus has happened before.
In this community, those who are able to "dial it back" and "limit their play" are heralded as some of the best members this community has to offer, and a true inspiration for rookies. (here's looking at you @virsoul )
Very well said post, btw, Tova..
I also enjoyed reading your contribution, both of you Iron and Dark
When you are playing against a team of bad players as an alien, you don't go fade to stomp them even more. Stay skulk, or go gorge. It's even more fun and challenging.
Wen you play as a marine against bad aliens, don't use your lmg until fades are up. Remember you got a pistol. Jetpacks are up ? don't buy them. Shotgun are up to counter fades ? Practice your lmg tracking.
We are waiting for an effective matchmaking system. It will hopefully lessen the pubstomping. Meanwhile, in pubs, play smart : lessen the impact of your skill without losing fun...
for someone "dialing it back" he sure shoots me in the face accurately enough
just had a game last night where it was a pure teamwork win. aliens were converging and hitting targets well, and together. two pronged attacks up the wazoo. with one veteran on the other team vs two on ours. that I felt the tag could apply to at any rate. still got accused of stacking. but only one guy. here's a question. what actually constitutes stacking? that game, I felt marines were in a pretty decent position, until they completely failed to respond to departures phase going down and lost all map presence on that side. how lopsided do the scores need to be? because I must say, even small skill discrepancies may lead to pretty lopsided scores at end game.
Even a modestly skilled ns2 player can decimate a team of newbies, and what with RTS style snowballing mechanics it only takes a small gap in skill to make a game 'stacked'.
Indeed, newbies even tend to exacerbate the problem by stacking one side or the other- experienced players seem to be less bothered what team they're playing for and in these cases actually join the less stacked team (in terms of player numbers).
I know this sure as hell happens to me plenty in ready rooms:
"hey, go aliens dude otherwise this games gonna be stacked as hell"
*no response, continues to wiggle around the 'MARINES' sign*
"ah well this games never going to start unless I join aliens.."
- one-side stomp continues, player that wanted to join marines so badly RQs and is never seen again...
Basically, my 2 cents is that you should stop ripping on 'competitive' players for 'stacking', because most of the time stubborn greenrines are just as much the cause of the problem.
Even with a rating system / MM, when I play games like LOL for example, only perhaps 1/5 games is a 'good' one with balance and teamwork- about the same ratio I find in NS2. Elo isnt just a magic cure-all for imbalances. I don't know what the cure-all is but heyho.
Just thought, what if we calculate a rudimentary odds of winning for each team (with current members, based on hive stats?) and display it in the ready room. I don't think people REALLY want stacked games and if they could see the effect on the winning% they have from joining a certain team they will at least have some feedback on their actions and think twice about it. I'm a big fan of self-organisation.
When it's deliberate. When you've see 3 rounds of losses and the other team Has been the same Team setup. When you can "call" the game within the first minute due to a (s)team roll.
When you notice two tagged players never letting go of their holding hands. Some of these people play together competitively all the time - most ppl have already over 800 hours and they use "well, I just want to play with my friends" is a sad sad reason to ruin 8(15) other people's fun.
While I don't agree with the 2nd part of your sentence, I really think you got a point : people must stop foscus on comp/tagged players. If the skill difference is big enough, every player can completely ruin a game.
Those guys just don't ask themselves "hey, I killed 3 skulks with one magazine on my first engagement. Shoult I only play with my pistol ? Should I play in a support role ? Shoul I find a more skilled server ?".
--> Usually they stay in the same server and decide to crush the opponents even more....
Noone can/should prevent godlike skilled people to play a game they like/love. But if they can't apply themselves a bit of self discipline (call it whatever you want).....well.....you can see the result in every pub server (some exceptions).
And when I asked why they stacked, "it's all for the K/D ratio man(2x)" "I like to win"(2x) "everyone does it(10x people said this"
But do you know what we ALL can agree on, winner or losers, especially in the 99% pub world, we all want to have fun and have good challenging, strategic games.
(Ok, New people don't provide that early on, and there are not many of them left still...)
I display the "Clan Tag" early rant mainly because they are the driving force behind getting NS2 publicity, and Hugh, I'm sure is looking for devices to keeping the newest playerbase from leaving. But this extends way further than NS2, and everyone agrees on that, the general consensus is gamers are narcissistic at best, but something abou NS2 brings out an experience way deeper than K/D or Win, but the close calls, the good teamwork and push/pulls of the game; You don't get that with very apparent stacks. The game sucks (currently pub, comp is fun to watch, I wonder why - maybe cause Divisions?)
So, maybe this is a plea to the NS2 Gamers, change up your attitude that "this mentality won't change" "Everyone does it" - NS2 already promotes amazing opportunities for teamwork & communication, something you don't hear in any other games like CoD although they are team fps games - Let's take NS2 further into the rank of being possibly the most well respected, good sportsmanship communities, because well frankly, the victim will be the game.
I hope I inspired some of you to start taking action and turn this hurt train back around to Successville and show the WC that we are not like the rest, respect of the game and player, something my coaches taught me long ago