@samusdroid I think the question about gorge tunnels was more 'why do they need to be linked to the nav mesh, if they were unlinked like before'
Not my question you understand I'm just rephrasing as I think the original intent got lost in the wording somehow.
I suggest the person look at the many gorge tunnel threads created then.
i surely miss overlook vent tunnel on veil and the other 90% of the regular floor places on refinary that is impossible to put tunnels in even at FLAT FLOOR LEVEL acessible to any marine.
i dont think tunnels need to be researched by comm again, if you gonna put a tunnel anywhere better be prepared to pay for shade and take the time to build that instead. plz dont do research on them.
You know that's fixed....right? I already tweaked tunnels to be easier to place. There's no more obvious in the middle of the floor spots that I know of.
@SamusDroid so we can finally build in spacious vents and flat floors again? best xmas gift i could imagine but im still away over the weekend so another 3 days without ns2
@SamusDroid so we can finally build in spacious vents and flat floors again? best xmas gift i could imagine but im still away over the weekend so another 3 days without ns2
I never said vents, and this was like 2 builds ago...
Although Elodea did choose a negative connotation in his wording (you call it whining), he got some legit points which shouldn't be discarded as a whole just because of his attitude
Just to be clear, I'm only being negative and almost sarcastic because I called this general problem of crampiness way back when they first announced eclipse and released the trailer. The warning signs were already there back then so I voiced these concerns only to be told to essentially 'not be negative' and trust in the power of ironhorse (:p) that the map would flow well in the end.
I hope you can understand where my discontent comes from @ironhorse. And even though my feedback in particular is usually not taken very seriously, I'm still going to give it however unwelcome. I'm sorry I choose not to be as politically correct as some of the others, like blind/fana/crushak.
@Jonacrab
I would suggest you atleast look at
- Removing the crate to the left of marine spawn at the entrance corner. Doesn't serve any purpose
- The crate at the stairs in triad. Doesn't serve any purpose
- The crate in east foyer. The curvature of those corridors is enough. You don't need to force marines to always move into worse positions to cover a corridor right outside their base.
- Same with the 2 grey crates blocking LOS down the ramp at keyhole. You don't need to block LOS so much pre natural rt. These are not places aliens need 'advantage' in order to be balanced/win from the overall flow/time of gameplay.
- removing middle handrail in stairs at triad. Pipedream i know, but indulge me.
- double ramping CC for the more interesting elevation based LOS system as is seen in access. Would probably solve core access.
- Seriously think about removing that teleporter. It essentially comes down to cheese vs cheese, and no-one likes being insta mined or being stuck in a room behind armoury walls. It's a noob trap more than anything.
- Think about removing the chokepoint pseudo-rooms around CC that are just heaven for exploitative gorge tunnel + whip turtle fests where you won't be able to kill the gorge behind. They also make it frustrating for people to learn the map as already mentioned in this thread
- General uncrampification and reduction of this syndrom of 'crate leading'. Where you're pushed to go further to get rid of the effects of one crate, only to be met with another that in turn pushes you further in and so on so on. It just doesn't have a good feeling. It's like there are sparse islands of good positioning, between which are great tracts of nope.
- I spoke alot about marine, but it's really hard to fade and lerk as well in some of the more cramped spots. I think someone else mentioned that as well.
- When you have the time, look at removing as many crates as possible. It would be better to remove the crates and replace it with geometry that simulated the same effect. Then atleast there's a better understanding from the playerbase of what the crate was actually doing to their gameplay.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
@elodea
I do understand where you are coming from; like i said it was a major concern we all had from the beginning.
Like Jona said, I just don't know what the solution would be.. since removing a lot of the cover means the layout would have to change drastically (which is worse, imo) or else it goes back to marine dominance?
So if i'm keeping track here, the only solutions known (or offered) so far are: Crates, corners, or repetitive winding hallways (a maze)..
This is, of course, if the style is to be preserved.
Also, that post is 1000 times more helpful feedback, very nicely done
Personally, I tend to lean towards @xdragon 's post... I can see positives and negatives to the design, and don't have an issue too often. (Nor did the eclipse only public games i was playing on for 5 hours yesterday - plenty of marine wins)
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the incredibly long empty hallways, say like out of CC for instance? You don't see a problem with those?
=
2) Is there a reason Gorges can't build a tunnel in the middle of the vent (the shaft) - It's not an "exploitable" spot as Marines can very easily enter the vent from both the north and south. Seems almost like it was specifically designed to be a good spot for a tunnel...
Because, as said many times, you cannot design maps around tunnels, you can't just place pathing in there just for tunnels, or else then ai will get screwed up.
What exactly does gorge tunnels have to do with AI pathing?
Apart from the fact that restricting GT placement to the nav mesh is a cheap way in which to keep them out of problem locations.
I will explain this...again...You can not just "put pathing anywhere" and you can't just "oh I want tunnels there, put pathing there" because it messes with AI pathing. When you do this you will end up with drifters under the floor, or in the ceiling, or stuck, Then people will complain about bad pathing because you put pathing where it should not be.
This doesn't explain it at all. Gorge Tunnels (should) have nothing to do with the navigation of AI units. As far as I can tell linking it to the nav mesh is just a more convinient way of keeping GTs out of vents - just a method of timesaving, unless a dev wants to chime in?
I don't understand why not restricting GTs to the nav mesh results in drifters in the veiling and floor (although we have that already) - pathing for AI units should be unaffected.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
@d0ped0g
Gorge tunnels DO have to do with AI units, because thats how their placement is restricted - so that they are not placed in unfair locations in the first minute of a round.
This occurred when gorge tunnels were made freely available at the start of the round instead of being researched.
Consider ontop of landing pad, outside of marine spawn.. if you could still place a gorge tunnel there in the first minute (which you can) do you think there's any remote way to deal with the continuous onslaught of enemies pouring into your base? There's zero ability to contest it adequately and economically.
Restricting GT to nav mesh doesnt result in drifters going under floors getting stuck... unless you allow that same pathing mesh to be placed in vents.
They share the same restricting mesh - arcs, macs, drifters, and GTs.
@elodea
Like Jona said, I just don't know what the solution would be.. since removing a lot of the cover means the layout would have to change drastically (which is worse, imo) or else it goes back to marine dominance?
So if i'm keeping track here, the only solutions known (or offered) so far are: Crates, corners, or repetitive winding hallways (a maze)
Well what's the goal? To restrict LoS, so that skills don't just pop in once they're 1536 units away or to restrict firing lines. If it's the latter, you could have more transparent stuff like the dangling wires outside Outlook in Veil.
In Eclipse (tech point) the path leading to triad needs some work; as in, you can see the flashlight from a marine shining through the wall (generator side) just north of the power node. ^^
Marines don't really have any naturals on this map, do they? There are literally none east of marine spawn and it's impossible to hold Triad and Access, especially so when aliens don't spawn in Maintenance.
That and narrowness problems aside, I think pubbers are slowly figuring out how to play this map. Rushing phase gates is essentially a must. Then just think of Generator as The Dome and Power Sub Junction as System Waypointing and you might just stand a chance. For aliens, get a tunnel in CC and/or Eclipse, defend Gen and PSJ and keep biting Triad and Access down and you'll be in a good spot.
Marines don't really have any naturals on this map, do they? There are literally none east of marine spawn and it's impossible to hold Triad and Access, especially so when aliens don't spawn in Maintenance.
That and narrowness problems aside, I think pubbers are slowly figuring out how to play this map. Rushing phase gates is essentially a must. Then just think of Generator as The Dome and Power Sub Junction as System Waypointing and you might just stand a chance. For aliens, get a tunnel in CC and/or Eclipse, defend Gen and PSJ and keep biting Triad and Access down and you'll be in a good spot.
I basically consider Access to be the marine natural. Triad is more the natural for Eclipse. The map is a little bit odd about that though, every base seems to be in reach of every node as if it were a map composed of 4 crossroads or hydroanalysis type bases.
@elodea
I do understand where you are coming from; like i said it was a major concern we all had from the beginning.
Like Jona said, I just don't know what the solution would be.. since removing a lot of the cover means the layout would have to change drastically (which is worse, imo) or else it goes back to marine dominance?
So if i'm keeping track here, the only solutions known (or offered) so far are: Crates, corners, or repetitive winding hallways (a maze)..
This is, of course, if the style is to be preserved.
Also, that post is 1000 times more helpful feedback, very nicely done
Personally, I tend to lean towards @xdragon 's post... I can see positives and negatives to the design, and don't have an issue too often. (Nor did the eclipse only public games i was playing on for 5 hours yesterday - plenty of marine wins)
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the incredibly long empty hallways, say like out of CC for instance? You don't see a problem with those?
I assume you're talking about core access? It's obviously a problem that it can be so easily denied by 1 pistol, and i've already suggested to Jonacrab to look at reverting back to the ns1 double ramp system in that area. I still don't think the solution is moar crates.
As for dragon's point, absolutely i would agree with him. It's always a good thing to have your performance dependant on team work and positioning, although i would say the crampiness does not exactly lend itself to good cover positioning as much as it does team baiting.
I just think it's been overdone in eclipse to the point where it seems you need to literally spend lives (lmg a0/a1 atleast) to move through most areas, or camp the other team from just outside the nope zone into a gg (such as never actually trying to push into CC).
*and just as an aside, I'm not all too interested in actual wins and losses. There are many more factors that go into that, extending beyond balance. Overall rates might give helpful indications, but still for me personally the issue at hand with eclipse is simply how it feels to play it throughout a reasonable ping range.
I am the person who would play something that is overall fun, regardless of how 'imbalanced' or 'balanced' the end state is.
Yes, its crazy that they had 365 days to write happy holidays or add a gorge related christmas.jpg link
Its not like you can hit ENTER once to publish it or use a phone wherever you are on the planet earth...
So, RadimaX, you're upset because someone didn't wish you a Merry Christmas? Dude....come on.
Anyways, on-topic, I feel Eclipse is fairly balanced as it is. That being said, like most maps, it could use some design tweaks. I agree with most elodea's points. One big issue I have is Triad. It seems so cramped and it's nearly impossible to hold against a skulk ball, even if marines have similar numbers. My idea is to lower the pillar so that it still blocks the RT from the window above (as I'm sure was the original intention) but low enough so Marines could provide some sort of cover for teammate on the lower portion of the room.
:P nope just saying there was plenty of time to do so, and they should post more often than every other week, i cannot play ns2 because im with family and away over holidays on a shitty laptop so atleast give me something to read.
Comments
You know that's fixed....right? I already tweaked tunnels to be easier to place. There's no more obvious in the middle of the floor spots that I know of.
Thank you for that wonderfull compliment @Therius.
I hope you can understand where my discontent comes from @ironhorse. And even though my feedback in particular is usually not taken very seriously, I'm still going to give it however unwelcome. I'm sorry I choose not to be as politically correct as some of the others, like blind/fana/crushak.
@Jonacrab
I would suggest you atleast look at
- Removing the crate to the left of marine spawn at the entrance corner. Doesn't serve any purpose
- The crate at the stairs in triad. Doesn't serve any purpose
- The crate in east foyer. The curvature of those corridors is enough. You don't need to force marines to always move into worse positions to cover a corridor right outside their base.
- Same with the 2 grey crates blocking LOS down the ramp at keyhole. You don't need to block LOS so much pre natural rt. These are not places aliens need 'advantage' in order to be balanced/win from the overall flow/time of gameplay.
- removing middle handrail in stairs at triad. Pipedream i know, but indulge me.
- double ramping CC for the more interesting elevation based LOS system as is seen in access. Would probably solve core access.
- Seriously think about removing that teleporter. It essentially comes down to cheese vs cheese, and no-one likes being insta mined or being stuck in a room behind armoury walls. It's a noob trap more than anything.
- Think about removing the chokepoint pseudo-rooms around CC that are just heaven for exploitative gorge tunnel + whip turtle fests where you won't be able to kill the gorge behind. They also make it frustrating for people to learn the map as already mentioned in this thread
- General uncrampification and reduction of this syndrom of 'crate leading'. Where you're pushed to go further to get rid of the effects of one crate, only to be met with another that in turn pushes you further in and so on so on. It just doesn't have a good feeling. It's like there are sparse islands of good positioning, between which are great tracts of nope.
- I spoke alot about marine, but it's really hard to fade and lerk as well in some of the more cramped spots. I think someone else mentioned that as well.
- When you have the time, look at removing as many crates as possible. It would be better to remove the crates and replace it with geometry that simulated the same effect. Then atleast there's a better understanding from the playerbase of what the crate was actually doing to their gameplay.
I do understand where you are coming from; like i said it was a major concern we all had from the beginning.
Like Jona said, I just don't know what the solution would be.. since removing a lot of the cover means the layout would have to change drastically (which is worse, imo) or else it goes back to marine dominance?
So if i'm keeping track here, the only solutions known (or offered) so far are: Crates, corners, or repetitive winding hallways (a maze)..
This is, of course, if the style is to be preserved.
Also, that post is 1000 times more helpful feedback, very nicely done
Personally, I tend to lean towards @xdragon 's post... I can see positives and negatives to the design, and don't have an issue too often. (Nor did the eclipse only public games i was playing on for 5 hours yesterday - plenty of marine wins)
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the incredibly long empty hallways, say like out of CC for instance? You don't see a problem with those?
This doesn't explain it at all. Gorge Tunnels (should) have nothing to do with the navigation of AI units. As far as I can tell linking it to the nav mesh is just a more convinient way of keeping GTs out of vents - just a method of timesaving, unless a dev wants to chime in?
I don't understand why not restricting GTs to the nav mesh results in drifters in the veiling and floor (although we have that already) - pathing for AI units should be unaffected.
Gorge tunnels DO have to do with AI units, because thats how their placement is restricted - so that they are not placed in unfair locations in the first minute of a round.
This occurred when gorge tunnels were made freely available at the start of the round instead of being researched.
Consider ontop of landing pad, outside of marine spawn.. if you could still place a gorge tunnel there in the first minute (which you can) do you think there's any remote way to deal with the continuous onslaught of enemies pouring into your base? There's zero ability to contest it adequately and economically.
Restricting GT to nav mesh doesnt result in drifters going under floors getting stuck... unless you allow that same pathing mesh to be placed in vents.
They share the same restricting mesh - arcs, macs, drifters, and GTs.
#SendGTsBacktoResearch
That and narrowness problems aside, I think pubbers are slowly figuring out how to play this map. Rushing phase gates is essentially a must. Then just think of Generator as The Dome and Power Sub Junction as System Waypointing and you might just stand a chance. For aliens, get a tunnel in CC and/or Eclipse, defend Gen and PSJ and keep biting Triad and Access down and you'll be in a good spot.
I basically consider Access to be the marine natural. Triad is more the natural for Eclipse. The map is a little bit odd about that though, every base seems to be in reach of every node as if it were a map composed of 4 crossroads or hydroanalysis type bases.
As for dragon's point, absolutely i would agree with him. It's always a good thing to have your performance dependant on team work and positioning, although i would say the crampiness does not exactly lend itself to good cover positioning as much as it does team baiting.
I just think it's been overdone in eclipse to the point where it seems you need to literally spend lives (lmg a0/a1 atleast) to move through most areas, or camp the other team from just outside the nope zone into a gg (such as never actually trying to push into CC).
*and just as an aside, I'm not all too interested in actual wins and losses. There are many more factors that go into that, extending beyond balance. Overall rates might give helpful indications, but still for me personally the issue at hand with eclipse is simply how it feels to play it throughout a reasonable ping range.
I am the person who would play something that is overall fun, regardless of how 'imbalanced' or 'balanced' the end state is.
#SaubnauticaBoycott
Maybe they have families to spend time with. You know, friendly people who don't whine all the time.
Is this the BUS everyone is talking about?
Believe it or not, they don't work on a national holiday. Craaaaaazy I know.
Its not like you can hit ENTER once to publish it or use a phone wherever you are on the planet earth...
Maby they are celebrating it on planet cl0rf?
I think its called the UBUS, U being Utrecht, NL.
Anyways, on-topic, I feel Eclipse is fairly balanced as it is. That being said, like most maps, it could use some design tweaks. I agree with most elodea's points. One big issue I have is Triad. It seems so cramped and it's nearly impossible to hold against a skulk ball, even if marines have similar numbers. My idea is to lower the pillar so that it still blocks the RT from the window above (as I'm sure was the original intention) but low enough so Marines could provide some sort of cover for teammate on the lower portion of the room.