GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
edited December 2013
Since im a lazy git, and its allmost xmas and got alot of stuff to do... Lazy copy/paste.
Never tell your password to anyone.
TAW| DCDarkling: go voice your opinion! *shoves gisp to topic* :P
GISP: ?
TAW| DCDarkling: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133661/community-manager-s/p1
TAW| DCDarkling: the more whom voice a, hopefully somewhat different, opinion. The better it works?
GISP: lol your perception of "the problem" is fubar
TAW| DCDarkling: I am unfamilair with the term fubar
GISP: UWE is one of the most if not the most open game dev out there
TAW| DCDarkling: (I probably forgot)
GISP: You are aware, that everything from balance, map and bug stuff, and eSports have the community as a mayor influence
TAW| DCDarkling: I am quite aware of a lot, if memory is granting. But I aint the community as a whole
TAW| DCDarkling: I think my problem description what spot on.
TAW| DCDarkling: for both sides
TAW| DCDarkling: but what I think is mostly inrelevant. Im trying to get as much of the community involved. As thats rather relevant to the topic at hand
GISP: You are aware that im a community manager right?
TAW| DCDarkling: of course I aint, unless im counting this specific line you just typed
TAW| DCDarkling: which community?
GISP: Dude... I think you are wrong on all points 0o
TAW| DCDarkling: Thats another valid opinion. I did not expect that reaction, BUT its a valid opinion nontheless
GISP: You knoe, all forum mods, playtesters, maptesters etc etc are people from the community, and not an UWE employee?
TAW| DCDarkling: of course
TAW| DCDarkling: but a mod/pt/maptest is not a community manager
GISP: Well, comprox is the main dude, and he have deligated the tasks.
TAW| DCDarkling: a main mod is not the same as a community manager so far I know.
TAW| DCDarkling: but I could be entirely wrong!
TAW| DCDarkling: go post?
GISP: I just dont see the reason to have a UWE representative working 7/24 on tasks we do allready.
GISP: Would be a total waste of resources
TAW| DCDarkling: I think you may have misunderstood me there
TAW| DCDarkling: whether it be 1 uwe person, 1 community member, a load of community members etc isnt even the topic at hand yet
GISP: ... Hell, the UWE forums is one of the cleanest gaming forums of any dev
TAW| DCDarkling: oooow, I know mate. I know
GISP: then why do you want a uwe manager?
GISP: ... Or are you looking to apply for the position? :P
TAW| DCDarkling: Whooooo. lets not get to far there. That sounds like effort.
TAW| DCDarkling: let me refrase my initial idea for you
TAW| DCDarkling: you folk manage the forums and keep topics clean and on topic and anti harrass etc yes?
GISP: ye
TAW| DCDarkling: What I ment was more a bridge inbetween uwe and the community itself to voice questions, awnsers, problems and ideas which fall out of the task/todo list of the moderator group
TAW| DCDarkling: not that you all can not do it by skill
TAW| DCDarkling: just that, so far I see, thats not your jobs and there is a gap there
GISP: We filter and link everything to the Devs
GISP: ideas, problems and all the other stuff.
GISP: and about 90% of the time we can anwser em.
GISP: another prehaps 5% we ask in the dev chat, and relay the anwsers
GISP: and the final 5% the Devs are faster than us :P
TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps, and im just throwing ideas here, to many of that all is unaware / unknown to the community and needs to be build out
GISP: Just becouse its "hidden" in a regular post, all the anwser s are still provided, same goes whit the techsupport
TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps it just needs to be communicated that the mod group is infact what 'we' are asking for?
TAW| DCDarkling: the fact so many permanent forum dwellers dont know is a sign in itself that it can be improved, if I may be so bold?
GISP: Not so much realy, for the most part the community allso provides the correct anwsers
GISP: We been promissed to have some indicators on the forums whos a mod and who isnt, but realy. Stuff will stay the same.
TAW| DCDarkling: Dont get me wrong though, personally I dont give a damn. But I cant be the only one who noticed the much hardened communication between uwe / community?
GISP: + map and pts are freqvently anwsering stuff, making the dev posts reductant
TAW| DCDarkling: problem of not saying like 'this person gives official awnsers' is that many simply wont get believed
GISP: ... Naa, its not a lack of UWEs responces, its just that alot more people are getting better at anwsering stuff before they get a chance to.
TAW| DCDarkling: many many many will disagree with you there. I on a personal note dont have issues with any of uwe;s posts (or lack of)
TAW| DCDarkling: many do. surely you noticed?
GISP: I can asure you, its becouse the community has gotten wiser and more helpfull in general. the Dev posts would say "x person is correct"
TAW| DCDarkling: you dont need to assure me!
TAW| DCDarkling: I find my communication going swell
TAW| DCDarkling: If you feel that strong that its not needed, voice your opinion in the topic?
GISP: As for unanwsered stuff, that isnt directly under NDA or something (like SN related stuff, awaiting announcement) i hardly see any.
TAW| DCDarkling: I dont have any problems either, part of this is inspired because I noticed many many do
TAW| DCDarkling: different views & opinions etc
TAW| DCDarkling: Lets see it this way, if so many would feel its not remotely needed, why isnt it loaded with disagrees?
TAW| DCDarkling: if you know otherwise, please tell them. (or is there another reason why ya aint for mod reasons?)
GISP: Nope http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/gorge
TAW| DCDarkling: the actual reason I got inspired to post was after reading so much posts on the forum & getting spammed on steam with it all, I desided 'fine fine'. Ill do it :P
TAW| DCDarkling: well if you dont want to, thats fait nuff I guess
GISP: stream forums dosnt count
TAW| DCDarkling: I didnt say steam forums?
GISP: that is purely for people, that cant be bothered to read the 1 and only sticky post. And thoes people are simply not worth discussing whit.
TAW| DCDarkling: I ment uwe forums & those same persons on steam friends
TAW| DCDarkling: the only time I bother steam forums is if I am looking for a awnser of A game, but thats unrelated to this convo
TAW| DCDarkling: well, if you dont wanna like I said.. fair nuff. But I dont need convincing.. im happy enought as is.
TAW| DCDarkling: it just many others aint
TAW| DCDarkling: thanks for your insight though.. I wont repeat it... (it always gets formed different) but I found it a nice convo
GISP: you are free to copy/paste this entirely if you wish (Then i dont have to write it all again :P)
TAW| DCDarkling: I often found my steam convos are not a good way to repeat info
TAW| DCDarkling: I end up rephrasing every line because folk dont get it
TAW| DCDarkling: so forgive me fi I dont do that. it would mean id write a whole post 'what gisp said' with you correcting me halfway :P
TAW| DCDarkling: (in worst case)
GISP: Hell, then i do it as is
TAW| DCDarkling: I did not understand that
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
edited December 2013
double post for continuity!
I have continued digging in the mysterious source called 'steam chat with gisp'. Part 2.
All is unedited as is, so if folk can not follow my stream of thoughts... well let me know. Normally I tend to type out stuff in a easier format, like my opening post.
>edit
well I guess thinking about it all, it would need perhaps to be a bit more open that the mods do this.. hence I hope to see plenty more reactions!
Because I noticed the problem. But I do not experience the problem myself. Hence I am unqualified to say if the solution provided is 'enough'
20:48 - TAW| DCDarkling: ow thats what ya ment
20:48 - TAW| DCDarkling: I feel this topics next post will become... interresting
20:50 - TAW| DCDarkling: onwards to terrorize the next person on the friendslist!
20:51 - TAW| DCDarkling: (not really, iron and neo etc already replied)
20:53 - GISP: Heh... Just as an example:
20:53 - GISP: Home › Natural Selection 2 › Veteran › Internal Beta
×The new Subnautica website has been launched!
Requests & Suggestions
LambLamb Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Posts: 267
December 18 edited December 20 in Internal Beta
These are all requests & suggestions that have been gathered from Playtesters, public & competitive players(sort of) with a hint of my own personal thoughts, those I found good & somewhat useful. I realize some if not all of these might be complex to do & developers are surely busy with something else, but some of these are solid & should be tested or experimented with. If it's decided to try them out, there's a chance they will need to be tweaked in some way so please do share your thoughts.
There will be more added with time.
Marine Commander, Ammo Counter on Marines - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/132953/can-comm-get-an-ammo-meter-on-marines
It's been requested before & it's currently being discussed in a thread in General Discussion, having a simple bar that indicates the ammo in the current gun on a marine, would be efficient in both public & competitive play. Could include a bar for both primary & secondary weapon if it's not too much.
Mute Commander Requests - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133587/way-to-mute-commander-requests
It's been done since the beginning of time, trolls have a easy time to piss someone off with it (understandably) and it's been both reported & suggested before. Either have it so that it gets disabled if that particular person is muted from the scoreboard or add another button for it. If deemed necessary, could experiment with adding a restriction on X many requests in X amount of time
Gorge Web location in Tech Tree
They come in way too late, it's rare to see them used in even public play, it requires 3 hives & 2 of them fully biomass upgraded. By then aliens have contaminate & you could say the game would be over by then. Gorge Web is not an end-game mechanic, which makes it pointless to have it that late,
20:54 - TAW| DCDarkling: omg no suggestions of mine. But yes, that sounds perfectly fine
20:54 - GISP: Thies posts are made like once a week
20:54 - TAW| DCDarkling: IF all what we need is the entire community becoming aware that the mod group ARE community managers, works?
20:55 - TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps a shiny green colour for mods?
20:55 - GISP: but realy, 99 of 100 are discussed or provided directly to the devs in the chat.
20:56 - GISP: Lamb is "just" a playtester.
20:56 - TAW| DCDarkling: well this is, I think a good example. Can I copy paste this example?
20:56 - TAW| DCDarkling: like you did
20:57 - GISP: Youll miss all the responces
20:58 - GISP: for instance...
20:58 - GISP: Marine Commander, Ammo Counter on Marines
i was thinking about adding this quite some time ago already, before the discussions started. just never had the time to change that
Mute Commander Requests
i think it would be good if "mute" disabled chat, request and voice
Gorge Web location in Tech Tree
i dont see this is as important. the gorge has already 2 tools to slow marines down (clogs and hydras), it would be really bad for gameplay to move webs to hive two. a definite "no" from my side here. also, onos gets 2 upgrades, and gorge gets 2 as well on 2 hives, so i dont get your point here. edit: not to mention that you can heal, build 3 different structure types as well in addition to bilebomb and babblers (all on first hive even)
20:58 - GISP: Sewlek said that
20:58 - TAW| DCDarkling: sounds fine with me
20:59 - GISP: just as an example realy, there isnt realy anything that does the devs by
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: its a good example
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps it needs to be a tad more official.
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: Shall I copy paste this all in the topic?
21:02 - GISP: Sure, but please understand that when a Dev posts, stuff like "i was thinking about adding this quite some time ago already, before the discussions started. just never had the time to change that" internaly, it allways a "maybe" or "soon". If he was to respond in the puplic tread, the anwsers would be differnt, as people would expect stuff said to be in next patch, even when he have said no such thing.
21:02 - GISP: Thats the trap whit ideas
21:03 - TAW| DCDarkling: Ill be sure to copy / paste this last disclaimer you typed also.
21:03 - TAW| DCDarkling: example = no promises or guarantees
21:04 - GISP: Tread have like 10 other responces.
21:06 - GISP: In any case, community brings up ideas/bugs/toughts etc etc, ideas and is summericed and presented to the devs, on iether the enter forums or in the internal chats... Or even during playtests
21:06 - TAW| DCDarkling: allright all cut and paste up to there unless you got anything to add
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
GISP raises a very good point.. many many members of this community provide this role already in different fashions and methods. (from server admins, to answering questions, to relaying feedback)
Though.. there is certainly no lead role.
I wonder if there's any benefits to it.. hmm
Whoa don't be name dropping... I will admit to being a complete ass at times (ok, all the time), but honestly I don't think you are aware of quite all the things that have happened in the past Ironhorse. While 2 wrongs don't make a right, its increasingly hard to treat someone with respect when they have time and time again shown you none.
That statement isnt really directed at anyone also, to make that clear now. I would rather let what has happened in the past stay there...
Not trying to point fingers at anyone, just explaining part of my logic... and why whomever would be the potential community manager should be someone that people 'respect'
For the record I have never had a problem with Ironhorse. While I rarely agree with his points and occasionally his choice of logic makes my head hurt, on a personal level he has always been atleast honest and upfront, and I can respect that.
Whoa don't be name dropping... I will admit to being a complete ass at times (ok, all the time), but honestly I don't think you are aware of quite all the things that have happened in the past Ironhorse. While 2 wrongs don't make a right, its increasingly hard to treat someone with respect when they have time and time again shown you none.
That statement isnt really directed at anyone also, to make that clear now. I would rather let what has happened in the past stay there...
I can definitely understand and appreciate that.
Your posts are gold, content wise, if i never told you such. Even if i disagree with the occasional.
Its refreshing when someone is logical / analytic in these forums..
I kinda did know you guys chat alot with uwe, but here's the issue:
A Community Manager is not taking part in a community discussion as single private person, but as represent of the company.
If you really want to fill out this role all the behind the doors stuff has to be shown to the community to be effectiv. You need to let the community feel that you keep contact with them as community manager simple by things like "Good Question. I'll ask the devs later and will post their answers here later."
You have to activly present yourself as "oracle of uwe".
Most volunteering game managers comming from the community make a second account (with their real name) to make clear: Here I'm representing my role as community manager and that posts are still my own opinion.
Overall i don't want to say everything is bad atm, but forum mods are not community managers.
The role of a forum moderator is to secure that noone breaks the rules of the forum. And to help the community manager to keep things going.
A community manager ist the bridge between devs and community. Letting the community know that the devs get what they post and by that improving the users experimence of the game.
Where are the yellow "calm down and keep going" posts, you see so much in other gaming communities?
I know community manager is a taff job, but it's needed as soon as a community get to big to keep the familair feeling. And this community has got to that point quiet a while ago.
And if we allready have community managers (seems so): Please step up and present yourself as such. Fullfill your role.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
@GhoulofGSG9 Hey, i woudnt mind getting payed to be just that, but there is several things, that makes it not a full time job. Or would take away from current positions.
"Good Question. I'll ask the devs later and will post their answers here later."
As shown in my previus conversation, the community as a whole. That being the average forum goer, forum mods, pts, server owners, etc etc. For the most part has the anwsers, (tech support being a good example, where knowledgeable people provides solutions before the Devs even get to see the posts).
Your 2nd responsorbility listed,
Letting the community know that the devs get what they post and by that improving the user experimence of the game.
Cannot realy be done whit the UWE structure. Features and other large stuff (like new official maps), are announced by Hugh, and where is no way neer enough stuff going on for this to be a full time thing.
While responding on bug issues (like @Ironhorse is during in this tread) Allso is a "minor task".
But lets entertain the idea, the job would require said person to be a forum mod at the vary least.
The ability the anwser most questions by emselfs whitout pestering the Devs every 5 mins (could be done whit same level access as the PT leads, so no problem there).
Take over the task Pony is currently during, and be the "main dude/go to guy" in reguards to the community (Hugh being the PR dude, so shifting his tasks whitin UWE around).
But all this would result in people not taking the advice from the fellow forum goers and be angry that no official responces are made to every post. (See my OP statement about the community being awesome and provide the anwsers, before any UWE or mod sees em). Resulting in said replys to be devalued.
Anyways, in short.
All the tasks, from admining or modding the forums, to tech support and general questions is currently spread out as minor "tasks". Some on playtesters, some on Hugh, and so on, but mostly stuff is taken care of by the community itself.
UWE being as open whit its development (NS2 was no more than a few pictures, and the community kept updated trough the entire process of development, and now again whit SN).
Makes this a vary difficult position to fill.
Personally I'm amazed anyone would want to be the community manager. I can't hardly stand to use this forums since it's basically 10 people posting regular and out of the 10, 8 of them are hard core vets who haven't changed their mind on a single issue since the games inception.
Debating or talking to anyone in this community is like fighting with a 12 year old. In game, it's fine - everyone is normal. These forums are incredibly toxic however and as far as I care could be entirely purged with no loss.
I honestly believe there is better discussion to be had on the steam forums half the time since everyone posting here is running issues around a pole over and over and over again, the only reason it's around a pole is because you guys killed the horse you beat to death already.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
I think Blizzard does a pretty fantastic job with how their community managers operate (with the possible exception of Bashiok) and pretty much set the standard for the rest of the industry. UWE could certainly benefit from that kind of strategy, but the problem is that I honestly don't think volunteer community managers would be as effective as paid CMs, and I doubt UWE has the money to hire even one CM let alone several. Being a CM is possibly one of the most energy draining and soul destroying jobs out there for all but the most absurdly positive and level-headed humans among us. As a CM you're putting yourself in the position of being the human face behind every problem a game has so that the developers themselves can spare themselves that misery. A big part of being able to cope with that is that you get paid to do it.
You could make an argument that we've made volunteer QA testing work and therefor this would be no different, but I would counter that because our QA process is very different (and very streamlined) compared to industry standards that it's not really a fair comparison. Typical industry QA testing is indeed pretty awful and I wouldn't want to do that for free, but what we do not only takes a lot less time but is actually genuinely enjoyable and satisfying because we get to make a positive impact on the game with astounding efficiency. UWE devs are also freakishly nice people and almost ridiculously easy to work with, with is pretty far from the norm if The Trenches is to be believed.
PS - next time someone from UWE gives a big speech like at GDC or something you should do one explaining to the rest of the industry/indie devs why QA doesn't have to suck.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
What @Narfwak said is true. Spot on. @Draktok, I disagree on the community being that bad. I do agree there shall always be filth.. narfwak described it nicely. Any forum is subject to trashtalk. A good CM (or more) would cleanup a forum even more then mods would. (basicly more to say on the matter then a mod, I in no way mean mods dont do their job. they do it just fine)
Still.. thanks for your opinions and points. They are as valid as anyones.
/dc out for today. Zzzz
I think the largest problem i see, or what is desired from the community is transparency. You will only ever have an issue if the other half does not understand, or simply isnt informed, what the other is doing.
There's a couple topics in the past few months that i've been following, that i never quite grasped what was the real intention for UWE while moving forward. There's always, or atleast most of the time, people who have an idea, or information from their own experiences or from others, that give the correct response. Share their information to people who don't. As people in this topic have said. But these people, even if they might have moderator status on the forums, are not there to say what UWE thinks of the matter. And as such they don't have as much credit in the eyes of "an-every-day-Joe". Even if they are completely right.
One of the most succesful variations to this community manager, that i have seen is by Blizzard on WoW forums, and afaik they do at least try to enforce same principles to their other games.
A forum where, when reading a topic you can click a link uptop to "Next Blue post" Blue being a moderator, responsible of the forums and having that job in particular. On top of that, their posts are always highlighted in a different color, the same way Sewlek as an example has here. For you people who know of this, or the scene, an example of itself is Ghostcrawler. Hated and loved, but he did the job really well.
So, ultimately what i'm saying is, not only would that said person need to have the support from this forum, for his posts to be easily visible, and promoted. He/she should be well adversed in the game mechanics, incoming changes and what is being worked on, and on top of that the view UWE has in what kind of features they are okey with having in the game. Bhopping, scripts, GT's etc.
Now wether or not this type of position is needed for NS2, i don't really know. I don't think it would hurt, but in the sense that everything we get is more or less a work in progress, why not try something like this out and see if its good or bad for the next game(s) UWE springs out of their well adversed and pizza filled belly. Doubt it would be a paid job, but so many things isn't, that doesn't mean there isn't people up for it.
I see a lot of mention about the trolling or unneeded behaviour from posts, insults and so forth. Due to the nature of the internet, and great variety of cultures we deal with every day. There simply put will always be some drama seeking behaviour, intentional or not. You can only get past those, and to the point people try to make, with experience (and old age). I believe we have quite enough people revolving these forums with said experience and knowhow to take up this task, if given the possibility.
My way of writing often comes off incorrectly (gets misunderstood slightly to the detriment of discussion). The biggest problem in the community I have experienced is when great genuine ideas get shut down or ignored because they're too difficult to visualize actually working in game. There are some of us out there that think there are fundamental flaws in the design of Natural Selection 2 mechanics. We post those flaws up, suggest solutions and instead of sparking a respectable discussion we get an entirely different response. It is "explained"(told) why things are the way they are and that's that.
This sort of dicouragement to discussion and lack of perceived progress in discussions (getting roadblocked and dismantled) hurts the game more than you think. I don't play the game anymore, it's design doesn't work for me. I know it doesn't work for others either. I know there are people who still play the game and put up with the problems. I know there are people who both put up with problems and insist the problems aren't there.
Without going into details. I have a very strong feeling that it all stems to how the community is managed. Talking about feeling, intuition, hunches is very shakey ground but it's all I have currently. I've got a very strong feeling that because most people in these positions of power(respect, or known as "that guy who knows about this stuff") overall think things are good enough, they aren't trying hard enough to make things better. Whenever an idea is put forward to make things better, those people in power insist there isn't a problem or the problem isn't all that bad.
The end result is multiple issues and people quitting the game disappointed not satisfied. I don't post often anymore because I hardly read much into the forums. I still do though, hoping that one day I'll come here and things will be better or completely fixed(both community and game). It's not so yet, this thread is attempting to fix things; please don't shut it down.
My way of writing often comes off incorrectly (gets misunderstood slightly to the detriment of discussion). The biggest problem in the community I have experienced is when great genuine ideas get shut down or ignored because they're too difficult to visualize actually working in game. There are some of us out there that think there are fundamental flaws in the design of Natural Selection 2 mechanics. We post those flaws up, suggest solutions and instead of sparking a respectable discussion we get an entirely different response. It is "explained"(told) why things are the way they are and that's that.
This sort of dicouragement to discussion and lack of perceived progress in discussions (getting roadblocked and dismantled) hurts the game more than you think. I don't play the game anymore, it's design doesn't work for me. I know it doesn't work for others either. I know there are people who still play the game and put up with the problems. I know there are people who both put up with problems and insist the problems aren't there.
Without going into details. I have a very strong feeling that it all stems to how the community is managed. Talking about feeling, intuition, hunches is very shakey ground but it's all I have currently. I've got a very strong feeling that because most people in these positions of power(respect, or known as "that guy who knows about this stuff") overall think things are good enough, they aren't trying hard enough to make things better. Whenever an idea is put forward to make things better, those people in power insist there isn't a problem or the problem isn't all that bad.
The end result is multiple issues and people quitting the game disappointed not satisfied. I don't post often anymore because I hardly read much into the forums. I still do though, hoping that one day I'll come here and things will be better or completely fixed(both community and game). It's not so yet, this thread is attempting to fix things; please don't shut it down.
You said it yourself in your first paragraph, your ideas are taken up for consideration, and then you get a response on why it not going to be implimented, or UWE wanting NS2 to go in another direction.
I think UWE have been alittle more hopefull about the modding community, and had hoped to see more community ideas make it into mods, or even standalone games. - That was the risk they took by going the "harder" way whit using LUA for everything. But in the end, the UWE team is to small to impliment large mods/support em in the vanilla game whitout sacrificing huge amounts of man hours. So while i know that its actualy on the wishlist/stuff UWE hoped to have the res for, being a small studio just havent made it posible, and they had to prioritize the vanilla game.
Yes, those who are often the most passionate with the best criticism/content to provide can be very poor with their delivery (xdragon, to name drop one).. and this is a damn shame in my eyes, because of the gold, as you adequately put, that is contained between their inability to communicate with other human beings.
I hate to single out a particular group of people, but the Aussies in these forums are sort of known for this (see the 4/5 users who awesomed your post ) i suppose due to their cultural differences. Xao received more warnings than any other user before finally being banned because his content was often worth putting up with his poor delivery. But in the end he contributed to making the forums a worse place.
I find this comment not only incredibly bigoted, but also extremely hurtful towards the Australian community of which you know very little. I suggest you stop projecting what you believe to be the correct method of communication on to the wider world, as all it does is exhibits your deep seated sense of cultural superiority over us people who do not share your norms and values (ie the other 6.7 billion people on the planet).
I worry dishonest passive aggression is much more harmful to this community than the honest but, in your view, poorly worded commentary.
I hate to single out a particular group of people, but the Aussies in these forums are sort of known for this (see the 4/5 users who awesomed your post ) i suppose due to their cultural differences.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Actually @Ironhorse his post combined with @xdragon and @scatter and @sebastianoswell their posts is a good example of not just communication between community and uwe, but also between community and community.
It also shows different groups of people have different opinions and values and uwe 'may' consider treating them different. (I dont know)
What I mean to say with this is, while some aus players seem hurt by those comments, it shows the vast variance and difference this community provides.
Community managing is a difficult task where such persons need to keep in mind all those differences.
SO all please do not feel to hurt on such posts in specificly this topic. It outlines all the more why I think more management as a whole may be needed.
I don't think 'conflicts' between UWE and the community are based on miscommunication / not understanding each other.
For me these 'conflicts' are based on understanding each other perfectly: UWE follows a development path of listening to the community but in the end they do what they see as being the best route for UWE. This is not some democracy, these are market relations. UWE knows 'the community' is an important but in the end adaptable part of their product.
We, poor flamers on these forums, all feel / know this already, we just dont handle it very well.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
@ieptbarakat
If it makes you feel better, i did push this issue strongly (along with samusdroid) .. but they do not wish to change it for security reasons.
So.. this is where a CM would be useful, to provide you with that feedback that your efforts were not in vain, they were absorbed.. but in the end it was rejected.
@scatter
I have never presumed to know about Aussies, and at worst i said "I suppose due to cultural differences", so no, i do not know or pretend to know - so idk why you're providing this "you know nothing about us" argument?? I only am going on the experience of a moderator.. and statistics aren't supporting your argument whatsoever. Users from Australia are the largest group to be moderated in these forums, by a decent margin. Which is unfortunate, because just like the portion you quoted of me, their posts have great content typically. (and out of the dozen or so moderators, only 2 are American, btw)
I have spent quite a bit of time with other Aussies who have explained to me the differences.. so my only knowledge comes from multiple first person accounts from other Aussies.. who.. obviously do not represent the entire continent. But they probably are able to adequately explain cultural communication differences of those users who post in here, exactly what i had said"the Aussies in these forums"... so you can drop the bigoted card now.
I do not presume there is any "correct form of communication" for the world, either (??)... but for these forums there is a clearly defined one that all will follow if they wish to participate :
Do not mistreat other members or by any means create a hostile environment for others to post in.
Its not about honesty - you can display that along with tact if you truly tried.
If you wish to continue this conversation I am more than willing, but lets do so in PMs so as not to derail any further.
edit: I really do hate that i singled out a group as an example. I realize that it doesn't matter if its true, it creates a stigma and discrimination - I sincerely apologize for doing that, it was reckless.
@ieptbarakat
If it makes you feel better, i did push this issue strongly (along with samusdroid) .. but they do not wish to change it for security reasons.
So.. this is where a CM would be useful, to provide you with that feedback that your efforts were not in vain, they were absorbed.. but in the end it was rejected.
Thanks for the effort I guess. I do still feel strongly about this issue and like other users, I will probably try a stubborn and bloody campaign even if it is in vain.
I can't really just quit after all, if they don't create the opportunity for creators to monetize their contributions to the game, they should really just find a way for them to at least let the community enjoy the things they make.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@CCTEE that may very well be. I only noticed A problem, mainly after forum posts and steam chats and assumed it was for a few reasons. I may very well be wrong on that.
I do want to urge all community members to keep posting as we get more and more opinions and views in this topic. Even the topics which go off topic, are at the beginning on topic with showing why communication is so odd and shifted.
Comments
TAW| DCDarkling: go voice your opinion! *shoves gisp to topic* :P
GISP: ?
TAW| DCDarkling: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133661/community-manager-s/p1
TAW| DCDarkling: the more whom voice a, hopefully somewhat different, opinion. The better it works?
GISP: lol your perception of "the problem" is fubar
TAW| DCDarkling: I am unfamilair with the term fubar
GISP: UWE is one of the most if not the most open game dev out there
TAW| DCDarkling: (I probably forgot)
GISP: You are aware, that everything from balance, map and bug stuff, and eSports have the community as a mayor influence
TAW| DCDarkling: I am quite aware of a lot, if memory is granting. But I aint the community as a whole
TAW| DCDarkling: I think my problem description what spot on.
TAW| DCDarkling: for both sides
TAW| DCDarkling: but what I think is mostly inrelevant. Im trying to get as much of the community involved. As thats rather relevant to the topic at hand
GISP: You are aware that im a community manager right?
TAW| DCDarkling: of course I aint, unless im counting this specific line you just typed
TAW| DCDarkling: which community?
GISP: Dude... I think you are wrong on all points 0o
TAW| DCDarkling: Thats another valid opinion. I did not expect that reaction, BUT its a valid opinion nontheless
GISP: You knoe, all forum mods, playtesters, maptesters etc etc are people from the community, and not an UWE employee?
TAW| DCDarkling: of course
TAW| DCDarkling: but a mod/pt/maptest is not a community manager
GISP: Well, comprox is the main dude, and he have deligated the tasks.
TAW| DCDarkling: a main mod is not the same as a community manager so far I know.
TAW| DCDarkling: but I could be entirely wrong!
TAW| DCDarkling: go post?
GISP: I just dont see the reason to have a UWE representative working 7/24 on tasks we do allready.
GISP: Would be a total waste of resources
TAW| DCDarkling: I think you may have misunderstood me there
TAW| DCDarkling: whether it be 1 uwe person, 1 community member, a load of community members etc isnt even the topic at hand yet
GISP: ... Hell, the UWE forums is one of the cleanest gaming forums of any dev
TAW| DCDarkling: oooow, I know mate. I know
GISP: then why do you want a uwe manager?
GISP: ... Or are you looking to apply for the position? :P
TAW| DCDarkling: Whooooo. lets not get to far there. That sounds like effort.
TAW| DCDarkling: let me refrase my initial idea for you
TAW| DCDarkling: you folk manage the forums and keep topics clean and on topic and anti harrass etc yes?
GISP: ye
TAW| DCDarkling: What I ment was more a bridge inbetween uwe and the community itself to voice questions, awnsers, problems and ideas which fall out of the task/todo list of the moderator group
TAW| DCDarkling: not that you all can not do it by skill
TAW| DCDarkling: just that, so far I see, thats not your jobs and there is a gap there
GISP: We filter and link everything to the Devs
GISP: ideas, problems and all the other stuff.
GISP: and about 90% of the time we can anwser em.
GISP: another prehaps 5% we ask in the dev chat, and relay the anwsers
GISP: and the final 5% the Devs are faster than us :P
TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps, and im just throwing ideas here, to many of that all is unaware / unknown to the community and needs to be build out
GISP: Just becouse its "hidden" in a regular post, all the anwser s are still provided, same goes whit the techsupport
TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps it just needs to be communicated that the mod group is infact what 'we' are asking for?
TAW| DCDarkling: the fact so many permanent forum dwellers dont know is a sign in itself that it can be improved, if I may be so bold?
GISP: Not so much realy, for the most part the community allso provides the correct anwsers
GISP: We been promissed to have some indicators on the forums whos a mod and who isnt, but realy. Stuff will stay the same.
TAW| DCDarkling: Dont get me wrong though, personally I dont give a damn. But I cant be the only one who noticed the much hardened communication between uwe / community?
GISP: + map and pts are freqvently anwsering stuff, making the dev posts reductant
TAW| DCDarkling: problem of not saying like 'this person gives official awnsers' is that many simply wont get believed
GISP: ... Naa, its not a lack of UWEs responces, its just that alot more people are getting better at anwsering stuff before they get a chance to.
TAW| DCDarkling: many many many will disagree with you there. I on a personal note dont have issues with any of uwe;s posts (or lack of)
TAW| DCDarkling: many do. surely you noticed?
GISP: I can asure you, its becouse the community has gotten wiser and more helpfull in general. the Dev posts would say "x person is correct"
TAW| DCDarkling: you dont need to assure me!
TAW| DCDarkling: I find my communication going swell
TAW| DCDarkling: If you feel that strong that its not needed, voice your opinion in the topic?
GISP: As for unanwsered stuff, that isnt directly under NDA or something (like SN related stuff, awaiting announcement) i hardly see any.
TAW| DCDarkling: I dont have any problems either, part of this is inspired because I noticed many many do
TAW| DCDarkling: different views & opinions etc
TAW| DCDarkling: Lets see it this way, if so many would feel its not remotely needed, why isnt it loaded with disagrees?
TAW| DCDarkling: if you know otherwise, please tell them. (or is there another reason why ya aint for mod reasons?)
GISP: Nope http://cdn.steamcommunity.com/economy/emoticon/gorge
TAW| DCDarkling: the actual reason I got inspired to post was after reading so much posts on the forum & getting spammed on steam with it all, I desided 'fine fine'. Ill do it :P
TAW| DCDarkling: well if you dont want to, thats fait nuff I guess
GISP: stream forums dosnt count
TAW| DCDarkling: I didnt say steam forums?
GISP: that is purely for people, that cant be bothered to read the 1 and only sticky post. And thoes people are simply not worth discussing whit.
TAW| DCDarkling: I ment uwe forums & those same persons on steam friends
TAW| DCDarkling: the only time I bother steam forums is if I am looking for a awnser of A game, but thats unrelated to this convo
TAW| DCDarkling: well, if you dont wanna like I said.. fair nuff. But I dont need convincing.. im happy enought as is.
TAW| DCDarkling: it just many others aint
TAW| DCDarkling: thanks for your insight though.. I wont repeat it... (it always gets formed different) but I found it a nice convo
GISP: you are free to copy/paste this entirely if you wish (Then i dont have to write it all again :P)
TAW| DCDarkling: I often found my steam convos are not a good way to repeat info
TAW| DCDarkling: I end up rephrasing every line because folk dont get it
TAW| DCDarkling: so forgive me fi I dont do that. it would mean id write a whole post 'what gisp said' with you correcting me halfway :P
TAW| DCDarkling: (in worst case)
GISP: Hell, then i do it as is
TAW| DCDarkling: I did not understand that
Well, works also.
this will be interresting to see.
I have continued digging in the mysterious source called 'steam chat with gisp'. Part 2.
All is unedited as is, so if folk can not follow my stream of thoughts... well let me know. Normally I tend to type out stuff in a easier format, like my opening post.
>edit
well I guess thinking about it all, it would need perhaps to be a bit more open that the mods do this.. hence I hope to see plenty more reactions!
Because I noticed the problem. But I do not experience the problem myself. Hence I am unqualified to say if the solution provided is 'enough'
20:48 - TAW| DCDarkling: I feel this topics next post will become... interresting
20:50 - TAW| DCDarkling: onwards to terrorize the next person on the friendslist!
20:51 - TAW| DCDarkling: (not really, iron and neo etc already replied)
20:53 - GISP: Heh... Just as an example:
20:53 - GISP: Home › Natural Selection 2 › Veteran › Internal Beta
×The new Subnautica website has been launched!
Requests & Suggestions
LambLamb Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Posts: 267
December 18 edited December 20 in Internal Beta
These are all requests & suggestions that have been gathered from Playtesters, public & competitive players(sort of) with a hint of my own personal thoughts, those I found good & somewhat useful. I realize some if not all of these might be complex to do & developers are surely busy with something else, but some of these are solid & should be tested or experimented with. If it's decided to try them out, there's a chance they will need to be tweaked in some way so please do share your thoughts.
There will be more added with time.
Marine Commander, Ammo Counter on Marines - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/132953/can-comm-get-an-ammo-meter-on-marines
It's been requested before & it's currently being discussed in a thread in General Discussion, having a simple bar that indicates the ammo in the current gun on a marine, would be efficient in both public & competitive play. Could include a bar for both primary & secondary weapon if it's not too much.
Mute Commander Requests - http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133587/way-to-mute-commander-requests
It's been done since the beginning of time, trolls have a easy time to piss someone off with it (understandably) and it's been both reported & suggested before. Either have it so that it gets disabled if that particular person is muted from the scoreboard or add another button for it. If deemed necessary, could experiment with adding a restriction on X many requests in X amount of time
Gorge Web location in Tech Tree
They come in way too late, it's rare to see them used in even public play, it requires 3 hives & 2 of them fully biomass upgraded. By then aliens have contaminate & you could say the game would be over by then. Gorge Web is not an end-game mechanic, which makes it pointless to have it that late,
20:54 - TAW| DCDarkling: omg no suggestions of mine.
20:54 - GISP: Thies posts are made like once a week
20:54 - TAW| DCDarkling: IF all what we need is the entire community becoming aware that the mod group ARE community managers, works?
20:55 - TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps a shiny green colour for mods?
20:55 - GISP: but realy, 99 of 100 are discussed or provided directly to the devs in the chat.
20:56 - GISP: Lamb is "just" a playtester.
20:56 - TAW| DCDarkling: well this is, I think a good example. Can I copy paste this example?
20:56 - TAW| DCDarkling: like you did
20:57 - GISP: Youll miss all the responces
20:58 - GISP: for instance...
20:58 - GISP: Marine Commander, Ammo Counter on Marines
i was thinking about adding this quite some time ago already, before the discussions started. just never had the time to change that
Mute Commander Requests
i think it would be good if "mute" disabled chat, request and voice
Gorge Web location in Tech Tree
i dont see this is as important. the gorge has already 2 tools to slow marines down (clogs and hydras), it would be really bad for gameplay to move webs to hive two. a definite "no" from my side here. also, onos gets 2 upgrades, and gorge gets 2 as well on 2 hives, so i dont get your point here. edit: not to mention that you can heal, build 3 different structure types as well in addition to bilebomb and babblers (all on first hive even)
20:58 - GISP: Sewlek said that
20:58 - TAW| DCDarkling: sounds fine with me
20:59 - GISP: just as an example realy, there isnt realy anything that does the devs by
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: its a good example
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: perhaps it needs to be a tad more official.
20:59 - TAW| DCDarkling: Shall I copy paste this all in the topic?
21:02 - GISP: Sure, but please understand that when a Dev posts, stuff like "i was thinking about adding this quite some time ago already, before the discussions started. just never had the time to change that" internaly, it allways a "maybe" or "soon". If he was to respond in the puplic tread, the anwsers would be differnt, as people would expect stuff said to be in next patch, even when he have said no such thing.
21:02 - GISP: Thats the trap whit ideas
21:03 - TAW| DCDarkling: Ill be sure to copy / paste this last disclaimer you typed also.
21:03 - TAW| DCDarkling: example = no promises or guarantees
21:04 - GISP: Tread have like 10 other responces.
21:06 - GISP: In any case, community brings up ideas/bugs/toughts etc etc, ideas and is summericed and presented to the devs, on iether the enter forums or in the internal chats... Or even during playtests
21:06 - TAW| DCDarkling: allright all cut and paste up to there unless you got anything to add
Though.. there is certainly no lead role.
I wonder if there's any benefits to it.. hmm
That statement isnt really directed at anyone also, to make that clear now. I would rather let what has happened in the past stay there...
Please dont point and blame.
For the record I have never had a problem with Ironhorse. While I rarely agree with his points and occasionally his choice of logic makes my head hurt, on a personal level he has always been atleast honest and upfront, and I can respect that.
Your posts are gold, content wise, if i never told you such. Even if i disagree with the occasional.
Its refreshing when someone is logical / analytic in these forums..
I kinda did know you guys chat alot with uwe, but here's the issue:
A Community Manager is not taking part in a community discussion as single private person, but as represent of the company.
If you really want to fill out this role all the behind the doors stuff has to be shown to the community to be effectiv. You need to let the community feel that you keep contact with them as community manager simple by things like "Good Question. I'll ask the devs later and will post their answers here later."
You have to activly present yourself as "oracle of uwe".
Most volunteering game managers comming from the community make a second account (with their real name) to make clear: Here I'm representing my role as community manager and that posts are still my own opinion.
Overall i don't want to say everything is bad atm, but forum mods are not community managers.
The role of a forum moderator is to secure that noone breaks the rules of the forum. And to help the community manager to keep things going.
A community manager ist the bridge between devs and community. Letting the community know that the devs get what they post and by that improving the users experimence of the game.
Where are the yellow "calm down and keep going" posts, you see so much in other gaming communities?
I know community manager is a taff job, but it's needed as soon as a community get to big to keep the familair feeling. And this community has got to that point quiet a while ago.
And if we allready have community managers (seems so):
Please step up and present yourself as such. Fullfill your role.
Your 2nd responsorbility listed, Cannot realy be done whit the UWE structure. Features and other large stuff (like new official maps), are announced by Hugh, and where is no way neer enough stuff going on for this to be a full time thing.
While responding on bug issues (like @Ironhorse is during in this tread) Allso is a "minor task".
But lets entertain the idea, the job would require said person to be a forum mod at the vary least.
The ability the anwser most questions by emselfs whitout pestering the Devs every 5 mins (could be done whit same level access as the PT leads, so no problem there).
Take over the task Pony is currently during, and be the "main dude/go to guy" in reguards to the community (Hugh being the PR dude, so shifting his tasks whitin UWE around).
But all this would result in people not taking the advice from the fellow forum goers and be angry that no official responces are made to every post. (See my OP statement about the community being awesome and provide the anwsers, before any UWE or mod sees em). Resulting in said replys to be devalued.
Anyways, in short.
All the tasks, from admining or modding the forums, to tech support and general questions is currently spread out as minor "tasks". Some on playtesters, some on Hugh, and so on, but mostly stuff is taken care of by the community itself.
UWE being as open whit its development (NS2 was no more than a few pictures, and the community kept updated trough the entire process of development, and now again whit SN).
Makes this a vary difficult position to fill.
Debating or talking to anyone in this community is like fighting with a 12 year old. In game, it's fine - everyone is normal. These forums are incredibly toxic however and as far as I care could be entirely purged with no loss.
I honestly believe there is better discussion to be had on the steam forums half the time since everyone posting here is running issues around a pole over and over and over again, the only reason it's around a pole is because you guys killed the horse you beat to death already.
You could make an argument that we've made volunteer QA testing work and therefor this would be no different, but I would counter that because our QA process is very different (and very streamlined) compared to industry standards that it's not really a fair comparison. Typical industry QA testing is indeed pretty awful and I wouldn't want to do that for free, but what we do not only takes a lot less time but is actually genuinely enjoyable and satisfying because we get to make a positive impact on the game with astounding efficiency. UWE devs are also freakishly nice people and almost ridiculously easy to work with, with is pretty far from the norm if The Trenches is to be believed.
PS - next time someone from UWE gives a big speech like at GDC or something you should do one explaining to the rest of the industry/indie devs why QA doesn't have to suck.
@Draktok, I disagree on the community being that bad. I do agree there shall always be filth.. narfwak described it nicely. Any forum is subject to trashtalk. A good CM (or more) would cleanup a forum even more then mods would. (basicly more to say on the matter then a mod, I in no way mean mods dont do their job. they do it just fine)
Still.. thanks for your opinions and points. They are as valid as anyones.
/dc out for today. Zzzz
There's a couple topics in the past few months that i've been following, that i never quite grasped what was the real intention for UWE while moving forward. There's always, or atleast most of the time, people who have an idea, or information from their own experiences or from others, that give the correct response. Share their information to people who don't. As people in this topic have said. But these people, even if they might have moderator status on the forums, are not there to say what UWE thinks of the matter. And as such they don't have as much credit in the eyes of "an-every-day-Joe". Even if they are completely right.
One of the most succesful variations to this community manager, that i have seen is by Blizzard on WoW forums, and afaik they do at least try to enforce same principles to their other games.
A forum where, when reading a topic you can click a link uptop to "Next Blue post" Blue being a moderator, responsible of the forums and having that job in particular. On top of that, their posts are always highlighted in a different color, the same way Sewlek as an example has here. For you people who know of this, or the scene, an example of itself is Ghostcrawler. Hated and loved, but he did the job really well.
So, ultimately what i'm saying is, not only would that said person need to have the support from this forum, for his posts to be easily visible, and promoted. He/she should be well adversed in the game mechanics, incoming changes and what is being worked on, and on top of that the view UWE has in what kind of features they are okey with having in the game. Bhopping, scripts, GT's etc.
Now wether or not this type of position is needed for NS2, i don't really know. I don't think it would hurt, but in the sense that everything we get is more or less a work in progress, why not try something like this out and see if its good or bad for the next game(s) UWE springs out of their well adversed and pizza filled belly. Doubt it would be a paid job, but so many things isn't, that doesn't mean there isn't people up for it.
I see a lot of mention about the trolling or unneeded behaviour from posts, insults and so forth. Due to the nature of the internet, and great variety of cultures we deal with every day. There simply put will always be some drama seeking behaviour, intentional or not. You can only get past those, and to the point people try to make, with experience (and old age). I believe we have quite enough people revolving these forums with said experience and knowhow to take up this task, if given the possibility.
The only question is time.
This sort of dicouragement to discussion and lack of perceived progress in discussions (getting roadblocked and dismantled) hurts the game more than you think. I don't play the game anymore, it's design doesn't work for me. I know it doesn't work for others either. I know there are people who still play the game and put up with the problems. I know there are people who both put up with problems and insist the problems aren't there.
Without going into details. I have a very strong feeling that it all stems to how the community is managed. Talking about feeling, intuition, hunches is very shakey ground but it's all I have currently. I've got a very strong feeling that because most people in these positions of power(respect, or known as "that guy who knows about this stuff") overall think things are good enough, they aren't trying hard enough to make things better. Whenever an idea is put forward to make things better, those people in power insist there isn't a problem or the problem isn't all that bad.
The end result is multiple issues and people quitting the game disappointed not satisfied. I don't post often anymore because I hardly read much into the forums. I still do though, hoping that one day I'll come here and things will be better or completely fixed(both community and game). It's not so yet, this thread is attempting to fix things; please don't shut it down.
I think UWE have been alittle more hopefull about the modding community, and had hoped to see more community ideas make it into mods, or even standalone games. - That was the risk they took by going the "harder" way whit using LUA for everything. But in the end, the UWE team is to small to impliment large mods/support em in the vanilla game whitout sacrificing huge amounts of man hours. So while i know that its actualy on the wishlist/stuff UWE hoped to have the res for, being a small studio just havent made it posible, and they had to prioritize the vanilla game.
I find this comment not only incredibly bigoted, but also extremely hurtful towards the Australian community of which you know very little. I suggest you stop projecting what you believe to be the correct method of communication on to the wider world, as all it does is exhibits your deep seated sense of cultural superiority over us people who do not share your norms and values (ie the other 6.7 billion people on the planet).
I worry dishonest passive aggression is much more harmful to this community than the honest but, in your view, poorly worded commentary.
</3
It also shows different groups of people have different opinions and values and uwe 'may' consider treating them different. (I dont know)
What I mean to say with this is, while some aus players seem hurt by those comments, it shows the vast variance and difference this community provides.
Community managing is a difficult task where such persons need to keep in mind all those differences.
SO all please do not feel to hurt on such posts in specificly this topic. It outlines all the more why I think more management as a whole may be needed.
For me these 'conflicts' are based on understanding each other perfectly: UWE follows a development path of listening to the community but in the end they do what they see as being the best route for UWE. This is not some democracy, these are market relations. UWE knows 'the community' is an important but in the end adaptable part of their product.
We, poor flamers on these forums, all feel / know this already, we just dont handle it very well.
If it makes you feel better, i did push this issue strongly (along with samusdroid) .. but they do not wish to change it for security reasons.
So.. this is where a CM would be useful, to provide you with that feedback that your efforts were not in vain, they were absorbed.. but in the end it was rejected.
@scatter
I have never presumed to know about Aussies, and at worst i said "I suppose due to cultural differences", so no, i do not know or pretend to know - so idk why you're providing this "you know nothing about us" argument?? I only am going on the experience of a moderator.. and statistics aren't supporting your argument whatsoever. Users from Australia are the largest group to be moderated in these forums, by a decent margin. Which is unfortunate, because just like the portion you quoted of me, their posts have great content typically. (and out of the dozen or so moderators, only 2 are American, btw)
I have spent quite a bit of time with other Aussies who have explained to me the differences.. so my only knowledge comes from multiple first person accounts from other Aussies.. who.. obviously do not represent the entire continent. But they probably are able to adequately explain cultural communication differences of those users who post in here, exactly what i had said "the Aussies in these forums"... so you can drop the bigoted card now.
I do not presume there is any "correct form of communication" for the world, either (??)... but for these forums there is a clearly defined one that all will follow if they wish to participate :
Do not mistreat other members or by any means create a hostile environment for others to post in.
Its not about honesty - you can display that along with tact if you truly tried.
If you wish to continue this conversation I am more than willing, but lets do so in PMs so as not to derail any further.
edit: I really do hate that i singled out a group as an example. I realize that it doesn't matter if its true, it creates a stigma and discrimination - I sincerely apologize for doing that, it was reckless.
Thanks for the effort I guess. I do still feel strongly about this issue and like other users, I will probably try a stubborn and bloody campaign even if it is in vain.
I can't really just quit after all, if they don't create the opportunity for creators to monetize their contributions to the game, they should really just find a way for them to at least let the community enjoy the things they make.
That or we start the promote evil_ice campaign.
I do want to urge all community members to keep posting as we get more and more opinions and views in this topic. Even the topics which go off topic, are at the beginning on topic with showing why communication is so odd and shifted.
The fact that its less discussed does not mean it is more, or less, accurate. Or more, or less, needed.
Also possible all points have been said and all arguments made. In which case all what's left is waiting for UWE and bump it now and then.