First signs of loss; concede
KKyle
Michigan Join Date: 2005-07-01 Member: 55067Members
Michigan Join Date: 2005-07-01 Member: 55067Members
Seriously, am I the only one sick of this? I've commanded and have been involved with countless teams that automatically give up at the first signs of loss and then automatically convince, or attempt to, the rest of the team to concede. So the team therefore has to not only fight the enemy team, but the teammates we are supposed to be working with.
In most scenarios, the game concedes. The same players join the same teams. The starting location remains the same. So the game just starts over wasting everyones time. This concede is as contagious as the flu infecting all those in self-doubt, which in case is most everyone.
It's absolutely sickening to be involved with these players that just give up with any signs of fun or strategy involved. Imagine yourself (which im sure you can easily) having fun only to have the other side give up. I've experienced games where neither side gave up, and the losing team somehow against all odds actually won by a brilliant strategy of doing something as outrages as teaming up and biling the command station and winning.
But as SOON as one person mentions "concede" it casts doubt in the mind of the team. The match no longer turns into strategy but how to convince the rest of the team that a new game is a good idea. Don't they realize there's infinite lives for a reason?! It's so damn common that everytime it's mentioned I have to say "No." or go on some rant trying to inspire those who have given up.
Can some servers disable this concede option as a plugin? Oh please, I would favorite you and play nothing but on that server.
/Rant
In most scenarios, the game concedes. The same players join the same teams. The starting location remains the same. So the game just starts over wasting everyones time. This concede is as contagious as the flu infecting all those in self-doubt, which in case is most everyone.
It's absolutely sickening to be involved with these players that just give up with any signs of fun or strategy involved. Imagine yourself (which im sure you can easily) having fun only to have the other side give up. I've experienced games where neither side gave up, and the losing team somehow against all odds actually won by a brilliant strategy of doing something as outrages as teaming up and biling the command station and winning.
But as SOON as one person mentions "concede" it casts doubt in the mind of the team. The match no longer turns into strategy but how to convince the rest of the team that a new game is a good idea. Don't they realize there's infinite lives for a reason?! It's so damn common that everytime it's mentioned I have to say "No." or go on some rant trying to inspire those who have given up.
Can some servers disable this concede option as a plugin? Oh please, I would favorite you and play nothing but on that server.
/Rant
Comments
There's been much concede debate... search for it.
Winners look for ways to win, losers look for excuses. Most of the stacking whining comes from shit players that want to concede the moment they lose an engagement.
Players would idle in the ready room or worse, idle in some vent. Alternatively they simply get fed up and leave.
How does this apply to a team based game? You could look high or low but you won't be beating a team that has full map control. There's no Micheal's secret stuff in NS2.
But I dunno, Ned, I have seen comebacks in NS2 ... plus the more I think about (or forget the truth
Conceded has its problems, and like the OP said there are still games where the losers make huge come backs... So it's not 100% preventitive. But there are times wher conceded has its moments.
@Zalamael Also, Vote Concede is disabled by default for the first 10mins, I sense a little over-exaggeration on your part here..
Or as Marine you spent the entire game on 2 extractors while the aliens had 6, you can't kill the lerks and fades and you know there will be 4 oni any second now.
Sure, try a base rush, but please learn when more experienced players with more kills than the rest of you combined tell you that it's over, it's over.
this. some people have this weird idea that if they concede others will think less of them, or something. all you're doing is ending the game early so we can get a new and likely better game going, no need to waste everyone elses time for your pride. sure comebacks happen sometimes if a couple good players join your team mid-game or you get a couple lucky base rushes, but most of the time it isn't worth the wait because it's rarely going to happen.
also if you know your commander isn't known to rage all the time and he votes to concede, just do it unless you are willing to take over commanding yourself.
Sun Tsu certainly agrees:
Did it occur to you that you could motivate your team to hang in there? Last time I checked a succesful concede vote required more than 1 person to vote...
Maybe you could build a fire, sing a couple of songs - why don't you try that?
Yeah, that sounds about right actually, as he spent the first part of the match whining about how it was already over, his vote to concede came after that. Very few players took him up on it though, until things started to really go wrong, which was about 10 mins after. The match lasted 17 mins, with the following 2 matches lasting 10 mins and 9 mins, all of them ending with a concede. Doubt I'll play on that server again.
As for your example though, that usually happens because there are too many uncoordinated players on the same server. Shuffling the teams rarely makes a difference, because the same poor teamwork is replicated in the following match, and in the next one etc. These players need to learn how to work as a team, and ending the match early does little to improve their play. They need the opportunity to get used to fighting against the late game upgrades such as Exos and JPs etc.
In some cases vote concede is the best option, as the game is well and truly lost, but there are far too many occasions when players throw the towel in when a match can still be turned. After 3 vote concedes in a row, in matches that could go either way, I tend to leave the server and look for one with more coordinated players.
We aren't talking about matches with full map control, we are talking about matches where one team gets off to a better start than the other. Someone who ends a 17 min match with 0 kills, 1 assist and 1 death is probably hiding in a vent doing nothing useful for the their team, and it stems from a weak mentality where they give up at the first hurdle, and then drag everyone else down. The worst part is, when the vote passes, they feel vindicated that they did the right thing, and it reinforces their belief that they were in the right for quitting, so they do the exact same thing in the next match, and they never grow as a result. Hiding behind excuses is a great way to limit personal growth!
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133854/stacking
The RTS part of NS2 adds another snowball/chain reaction effect to it.
You will see way more comebacks in games like Dota2, because the variation gap is much smaller.
In Dota2, every hit hits and does a pre-determined number of dmg + a bit of variable damage --> not much variation.
In NS2, you could have 2 marines on your team: one who succesfully connects 80% of all shots, killing skulks by the dozen and a greenie that barely hits at all and never does enough dmg to even reliably take down 1 skulk. Huge difference. The thought of a single Dota2 player winning the match all by himself without any help from his team is ridiculous - in NS2 it's a sad possibility.
Such as 1 concede per map.
"Sorry. Limit 1 concede per map. Last round used up this slot. Please commit to trying"
Or concede enabling through triggered events..
"Aliens are egg blocked. Concede enabled" / "Marine beacon triggered three times, concede enabled"
Just some sort of alternative that prevents giving up so god damn easily at 3 minute in, at 11 minutes in... especially when the team
giving up still has some sort of fighting chance through teaming together through alternate strategies and communication and such.
I myself would. I've played more games than I can count on both hands where I've had a teammate call "concede" the entire game, the teams stay relatively the same, we turn it around, and we win.
I like the longer games. It also bothers me when Aliens have 3 tech points, and concede themselves. (or vice versa.)
Pulling concede would have those players simply replaced by someone better when they inevitably choose to leave the server.
Turns out the marines had forsaken upgrades and gone straight for JP/Exo's, but still it was a mis-understanding from both teams of the strength/res flow of the other team.
However, when you are aware ofhow much res the enemy has held and for how long, some simple maths tells you that it is time to concede and start again, even if you are only 5 minutes into the game.
Remember NS2 is designed around 20minute games, that is the target, if you reach 50% of that time and are well behind, conceding is a very viable option.
Also, as regards comebacks, in my experience, they only usually occur when someone of a higher skill level joins the team and causes you to perform better, or someone skilled from the other team leaves. The snowball effect of the RTS side is designed to make it very hard to comeback. Comeback's are fun, but not designed to happen in the game.
Seriously, why does everyone else need to see you're willing to give up? It's a huge demoralizer and flamewar starter.
Only benefit is getting people to concede easier. This is a problem that lessens the more experienced the playerbase becomes. So MAYBE a public concede is still a good thing, but I think eventually it's going to be useless and should be changed.
Yes, it is annoying and difficult when one or two people throw in the towel too early, but if it were super easy then it wouldn't be the challenge that it is.
I would also like to add it can be annoying on the other end of the spectrum too. IF like some people have mentioned it is clearly over, and restarting (even with the same teams) can provide a better chance due to Troll or accidental comms or just a miserable start. Conceding has its place for sure.
Last time a few days ago we were down to pipeline hive with 1 RT and exos, jetpacks and arcs were approaching. Wild topo gorge tunnel appears. Four gorges destroy CC in seconds. GG.
Yes, I'm talking about pub games here.
It's harder on marines side. Well, on Eclipse we just lost maintenance and all of our external RTs. I managed to get a sneaky PG in core access, 5 GLs destroyed hive in no time, then we used GT that led to Eclpise hive, and it was demolished in same fashion. This was much more harder to achieve then sneaky GT. Adding that most of the times pub players avoid entering GT at all costs, we were just lucky some dude convinced everyone it was a good idea.
Comebacks like these are possible really early when situation gone wrong. Say, if marines are trapped at main for some time, aliens probs got forward bases that they gather around near every exit and TRES enough to replace as many hives as they want and pres to replace any lifeform. Well, then there is nothing you can do. If you had a major loss seconds ago, it's not time to concede yet. Providing you have a little bit of teamwork, some sneaky bastard and enemy team didn't bother too much about base security.
Comebacks have most epic endings this game can have. I'd rather suffer last base siege 20 times and be in a team that does epic comeback one time, then end game when all hope is not lost yet 21 times.
Just yesterday when things were going bad for us, I placed a tunnel right in front of main marine base. We could do that one last bile rush that would tell us if this was a fail attempt and we should have conceded without trying, or it could be an awesome comeback. Too bad, aliens conceded right one second after tunnel opened. And I was telling people that I'm going to place it like half a minute before and kept repeating with each new concede vote. Then they saw tunnel line on map and were like 'Awww, damn'. Who knows, that could be match of they day or week for me, but concede didn't allow it to happen.
Aliens do not continuously attack marine start.
The big unbalance factor in this game is the alien rush. If from the start aliens rush in time, after time, after time, eventually they will do enough damage to wipe out the marines. The marines will be forced into defending & repairing their base constantly, while the alien comm auto builds his RT's in the background, and marines are screwed.
This is why you see alien wins in games they have no right to win, they are out-teched, out-fought, and yet, rush in and hit the base powernode, the rest of the structures and GG.
It is also one reason why I dislike the game being balanced around win ratios, because aliens can win every game if all they did was rush base, in fact, in beta, this was a big problem until people realised it made for boring games...
I think the Alien rush is not so much unbalanced as it is a result of asymmetry. Yes, Alien can run in and do a lot of damage over and over, but marines loosing an RT is not nearly as big a deal as aliens loosing a harvester. The game goes to whomever is applying pressure. And breaking out of that cycle of defend, rebuild, defend... can be really hard, but is part of the game.
As far as having "no right to win" that is just not true. Not defending or planning for a Rush when you are WAY ahead is a failure on the marines part. Just like not scouting for a phase gate if you are the aliens. It is a known, and honestly just flat out expected, strategy when your team is loosing.
The "problem" with how the game is balanced right now, is that the game is balanced for 6v6 primarily. For example Aliens win more on Large server games because early gorge tunnels are OP when you have players to dedicate to gorge. In 6v6 having one player go gorge right away is a BIG sacrifice, as early game gorges are not good for pressure. even in games as small as 8v8 having someone go gorge has a much smaller impact (let alone 12v12 cluster****s).
I say look for smaller servers if you are complaining about balance, because 6-8 player teams is the sweet spot for how this game plays.
If you could get a hole in one every round of golf, no one would play. I think the biggest problem is that the Sudden base rush is one of the only ways to get that comeback. It would be cool to see some additional options somehow... but I can't see that happening at this point. It would need some crazy different mechanics in the game.
At least you wouldn't have to ask for an hour to concede (when nothing can be done).
Most of the time you have to concede because the team isn't really good, but also the team just don't understand English (which is often used). The worst are the "no sound guys".
And, many noobs don't know how to concede. I've seen countless attempts to end a done deal, and the vote only passes once someone has explained how to go about voting yes/no :P
Usually, when someone is trying to get a concede, the first two messages are in my experience
"press x
vote concede"
It's what I say, too.
Just as annoying is when 80% of the necessary people have conceded but the remainder won't. At that point it doesn't matter if you think there's still a chance to win - your team has stopped trying.