Exploits for finding enemy team's base (and what to do about it????)
BeigeAlert
Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T READ ANY FURTHER! JUST GO BACK TO THE GENERAL DISCUSSION PAGE, AND LEAVE THIS PLACE IMMEDIATELY!!! This thread is tearing us apart!!!
Okay so most-everybody knows that as marine commander, you can drop a medpack on an RT to see if it is indeed the alien's starting location. I've discovered recently while testing my map that aliens also have an option at their disposal: "nav_debug". This is a console command that makes the game draw the navigation mesh so you can see where your arcs/macs/drifters/cysts can be placed, and make sure things are connecting up where they should, etc, etc.
BUT here's the kicker, "nav_debug" can be enabled by ANYBODY at any time. The server does not need to have cheats enabled. This also can be used to figure out what else marines may have in their base.
The obvious solution is to make it only accessible when cheats are on. Easy. But hold on, now marines still have the cheesy tactic of being able to drop a medpack on an RT, and aliens still have to guess.
So in addition to making nav_debug a cheats-only command, let's make it so medpacks don't land on alien structures unless they are revealed (line of sight or scan).
BUT here's the kicker, "nav_debug" can be enabled by ANYBODY at any time. The server does not need to have cheats enabled. This also can be used to figure out what else marines may have in their base.
The obvious solution is to make it only accessible when cheats are on. Easy. But hold on, now marines still have the cheesy tactic of being able to drop a medpack on an RT, and aliens still have to guess.
So in addition to making nav_debug a cheats-only command, let's make it so medpacks don't land on alien structures unless they are revealed (line of sight or scan).
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Well I've never had much trouble placing a gorge tunnel before... but what if when you are placing a gorge tunnel it sort of highlights the nav mesh near where you are so you can see the valid spots?
The proper solution is to not draw the medpack outside of LOS.
ns2_summit - 2 (cross excluded)
ns2_tram - 0 if you start on top, 1 if shipping
ns2_mineshaft - 1 (cave or sorting)
ns2_docking - 2
ns2_veil - 2, Sub is more often a starting hive than others, so you can go with 1 most of the times.
ns2_refinery - 1 if you start on flow or containment, 0 if turbine or smelting, as there are no more options (Pipe excluded, no close spawns)
ns2_biodome - 2 (falls excluded)
ns2_eclipse - 2
So, depending on your intuition, you will waste no more than 2 res and get info almost instantly. As opposed to scans, where you have to invest 10+10 res for obs, up to 30 seconds to build it (or powerbuild at cost of slower expansion), then 3 res per scan.
I don't like this technique at all. 'First contact' guess is much more interesting, and it's still a guess.
Quote from store page:
Why though? I don't understand how finding a hive location is an issue. Most of the time marines start at a fixed location anyway, so it's only fair that marines have some way of finding out where the start hive is. In any case, within the first minute the "top secret" start hive spot would have been found as some marine walks into it on the search for rts.
If it works, recycle it. If you get an error -> there is your starting hive. Res cost? Zero.
Thats what I usually do, while my marines build the first RTs.
Never tried it, but should work with cc, too.
Edit: Sorry, did not see the spoiler from xen32
It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.
meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.
nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.
Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.
There are far to many ways to identify/"exploit" alien start location to fix.
If you cant waypoint, you can drop a med...
if you cant med, you can drop ccs...
if you cant drop ccs, you can drop rts...
etc...
Dictatorial claptrap.
You can use nav_debug to find locations of enemy structures you have not spotted. Not JUST the chair, but you can also see sneaky phase gates or cloaked gorge tunnels if you manage to spot them from command. I think that ranks pretty high up there as cheating.
@SupaDupaNoodle and anyone else who disagrees with me... I don't get it. Do you guys not think this is a bug? If not why have there been so many attempts by UWE to fix it? First they hid the hive sound effects from commander view, then the particle effects, then the medpack trick stopped working... now it's back. It seems pretty clear to me that UWE doesn't intend for this trick to work. If you disagree because you think the solutions are flawed, then propose an alternative. If I sound dictatorial it's because these kind of bugs are so pervasive in NS2, they've been around for so long and the solution seems so apparent that I don't think it requires a discussion. But I'm happy to hear alternatives. ¯\(°_o)/¯
The thing a lot of people are trying to say is that its not actually a "problem" and doesn't need solving.
If I recall, the med dropping way of finding hives has been around since NS1. It wasn't a problem then, and its not a problem now.
The nav_debug thing is a different story, though I haven't tested it and cant really judge weather its being blown out of proportion or a legitimate issue.
Personally I think server should choose.
Those are made all the time and usually are fixed or outright disappear soon, as they just don't work.
But considering the wide array of options at users' disposal and the fact that fixing these have just resulted in a never ending game of whack-a-mole where they continue to rear their heads every other patch, or new methods pop up, and then the final nail in the coffin : that devs have pretty much given up on fixing it a while ago as a result of all this.... I think its best to just mass spread these tips to every player to at least level the playing field.
you can figure out where the other team starts by where they make their first engagement or which direction they are scouted...the maps are small. this aint planetside2.
gorge tunnels have been broke since they "fixed the exploit" of being able to place them anywhere. bullshit.
If that's ruined 5 seconds earlier by my comm... *Shrug* ok.
Say, drop arms lab, drop 2 natural RTs and get out to build arms lab yourself. If I can't pre-drop structures, I should wait for marines to reach RT rooms first. Which pretty much means you can never leave chair.
Second, if you are rushed and your only CC is focused, and you beacon and you still have res to drop ghost CC somewhere, but you can't because nobody is in that room, and you could have possible saved the day. Say, you had a PG in utility/neck and could drop pipleline, but no, it was empty - no structures, no marines. Relocation is not possible.
Also, can't pre-spam stuff, when your team is entering hive room:
In other words, it just adds busywork. Instead of dropping structures here and there before your marines are there, you have to monitor each group and drop structures as soon as they cross virtual room boarder (which is not always clear), or else 'zomg noob comm y u so slow'
The medpack costs Res so it is risk reward for information 5-10 seconds earlier than first contact, and is visible to the ref if you are in competitive match if you want to outlaw it. In a Pub, the added information is not used effectively in the 5 to 10 seconds before first contact revealing the probable alien start anyway, most rookies are still in base trying to buy exos from the armory :-P
As far as making the nav debug only available through the cheat menu is a viable option, although with most good servers forcing cross spawns and marine starts in other maps being pre-defined that seems kind of unnecessary anyway. Maybe someone could make a server mod to disable the debug exploit, it just doesn't feel important enough for UWE to spend time on at this point.