Making Exos Viable Again
meatmachine
South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Right,
As far as I can tell from recent threads, since armour nerfs the exosuits are no longer considered at all viable at any level of play, by anyone.
I remember days when it was possible for marines to win after 40 mins, if they could hold enough res to save up for a couple of exos and some arcs, a train could be started. A train of metal and death. These were the base of many marine comebacks that used to be fairly commonplace.
I have brilliant memories of exo-onos showdowns and exos that lasted longer than a couple of seconds vs lerk spikes.
I am presuming the nerf was due to exos being too powerful at the highest levels of play, or am I incorrect?
My question to you guys is, are we aware of any plans to make exos a thing again, if so what? If not, what would you suggest we do to make it so while avoiding old issues?
Or if i'm just imagining things please tell me to shut up
I just want to see some more discussion about them- at the moment they're simply not used. I actively find myself telling people not to use them because they are just so damned awful. This is a great shame given how much work went into bringing them to life, and just how awesome giant robots are.
As far as I can tell from recent threads, since armour nerfs the exosuits are no longer considered at all viable at any level of play, by anyone.
I remember days when it was possible for marines to win after 40 mins, if they could hold enough res to save up for a couple of exos and some arcs, a train could be started. A train of metal and death. These were the base of many marine comebacks that used to be fairly commonplace.
I have brilliant memories of exo-onos showdowns and exos that lasted longer than a couple of seconds vs lerk spikes.
I am presuming the nerf was due to exos being too powerful at the highest levels of play, or am I incorrect?
My question to you guys is, are we aware of any plans to make exos a thing again, if so what? If not, what would you suggest we do to make it so while avoiding old issues?
Or if i'm just imagining things please tell me to shut up
I just want to see some more discussion about them- at the moment they're simply not used. I actively find myself telling people not to use them because they are just so damned awful. This is a great shame given how much work went into bringing them to life, and just how awesome giant robots are.
Comments
What I would like to see is any marine can get into any exo
More Armor, but with a weak spot that is exposed while firing and when overheating (or charging Rails).
OR since they aren't very mobile anyway, turn them into manned static defense weapons. like a super turret. This would also need to be accessible by any marine, and dropped by the commander.
I don't think these are an option since it would require an animation and model changes which is not going to happen.
As far as basic changes to make them viable I see two routes: More Armor and More Res, or Faster and Weaker. Maybe make them weaker and faster but add a Pres Purchasable armor upgrade at the Protolab that slows you down considerably.
Or add a stomp ability for all those people who can't hit skulks at their feet.
In NS1 heavy trains were effective because you were still essentially a normal marine with lots of armor and a reduction in speed. You were able to whip out your welder and weld your fellow heavies during downtime and a group of heavies was generally self sufficient on its own, until the onos stomp came out. Having a JP or two for escort worked wonders.
In NS2 you have 3 different mechanics:
1) Cumbersomely 'eject' to weld yourself, or another exo which is slow and risky most of the time and why it is almost never used.
2) The commander can assign 1 MAC to an exo to follow them around and weld. The problem with MACs is that they're extremely weak and go into an annoying "vibrate death spiral" mode when under any attack. In addition they block your LOS and shots much of the time since bullets can't go through them. They aren't made for any type of combat and can never replace a human welder with a gun.
3) You're completely reliant on other marines to weld you in the heat of combat, who could be shooting at aliens instead. Granted they should be welding each other anyways, but its much quicker to weld a normal marine and get immediately back into combat, then it is to sit and weld an exo who will need to be welded up to health again after every engagement. More focus is put on repairing the weak exo with powerful, but limited firepower, then repairing more mobile marines that are around him.
As its just an exercise in squinting, otherwise.
Also the useless fist is long overdue for innovation. (taser, anyone? :P)
As far as armor goes, I am having difficulty recalling (due to testing sooo many different numbers/versions) but was the armor actually lowered? I recall it being atrociously low during reinforced testing.. but then it was bumped back up after much complaining from PTs. What was the difference, if any, in armor values?
I don't recall the values, but I know they used to be a lot beefer pre-patch 250. They were adjusted after the game being 'gg' for aliens once exos were on the field. I think they went really low during reinforced then were adjusted back up a little in a successive build. Public builds that is.
I really don't like the gameplay that it introduced.
Some felt it would make them stronger, since you could no longer separate them from the rest of the team (Traditionally was how you dealt with an Exo train), but I also felt that it came with downsides such as losing your Exos in that forward assaulting positions, just because you needed to address a desperate attack on your own base. That's a lot of lost ground considering Exos cannot phase.
Worst of all, because it was viewed as a buff, it became justification for lowering the armor values. :-/
I am not sure why they reduced the fist's samage in the first place. Also, for immersion reasons I am totally fine with the cockpits view obstruction (not every game can be grey squares and hitboxes liek quake 3, I do like immersive art/limitations placed by it). You get access to target tracking as a certain mitigation anyway.
I really think exos are not too horrible at all and just require a meta shift for them to be more viable.... and perhaps maybe a weebit more early armor.
Also, you get audio, and something like 10 different effects to tell you that you are low HP... I think its just too redundant to be justified under "immersive."
Flaming cockpit? Ok.. immersive...and useful for peripheral vision indicator IF only used when less than 20% HP.
Scan line opacity increased? Not needed.
Scan line static added? Not needed.
Huge Puffs of smoke obscuring my screen while firing? Never helps, and doesn't add to immersion? The barrels heating up and mass amounts of brass casings take care of that.
I really enjoyed when Exos could "thrust" in any direction, momentarily, making for highly evasive Exos. If armor levels were desired to be kept where they are, then this aspect should at least be brought back, it at least didn't mean "gg" when Exos came out.. you had to position and time it correctly.
* Less armor
* Less damage
* Miniguns heat up fast now with both going at once.
* The gained movement speed is lost when firing.
Not to mention:
* Can't be dropped by commander anymore. Personal res only.
* If you get out to weld your exo, it means you are probably alone and therefore extremely vulnerable. This rarely works out in your favor.
* You don't keep your jetpack if you get into an exo.
IMHO, if you can win with Exosuits, you can win easier without them.
A Shotgun-Jetpacker is also much more agile and deadly to Skulks than a Railgun Exo (while also being cheaper), even though that is supposed to be one of the Railgun's primary perks. The Railgun basically has to make the 1-2 charged shots count that he has before he gets swarmed by a Skulk from which he can't run away. The Shotgun-Jetpacker has 6 shots loaded and can evade the Skulk for quite a while and also has much better chances against higher lifeforms. Onos vs Railgun will always end with the Railgun dying, not matter how much he tries.
Is there actually any use for the Dual-Railgun? Their charging processes are tied to each other, so you can't fire them quickly after each other, which limits you quite a lot in the fire patterns you are able to pull off with them. And for 60 res does it just not seem worth the investment, considering how easy it is to take that thing down.
Dual-Miniguns are an entirely different caliber for the same price. They melt through alien lifeforms and structures as if there were no tomorrow and are much more forgiving in terms of aim.
But yeah, ideally the marine commander would be able to drop (or construct, like a structure) an Exo-Chassis for 40 tres and then the marine who enters it has to buy the weapons separately if he doesn't want to remain with just two fists. And they can be combined in any way you like, without locking you into Dual-Minigun or Dual-Railgun only.
Flamethrowers, Miniguns, Railguns, Chainsaws, Grenade Launchers, Shotguns, or maybe forfeit one weapon attachment for an extra Shield Generator... the power should be balanced by the individual cost of each weapon and by the amount of heat it creates (you could make it so that 33% of the heat generated by one weapon is also added to the heat of the other weapon or that a weapon has an even slower cooldown while the other weapon is firing).
But that would probably require too much modeling and animation work to be viable at this point.
The Exos should not be able to be beaconed, and should be that much more deadly and vulnerable to being left alone.
Also, Exos cannot and should not be balanced for Comp play (6v6) as I cannot see any strategy in those short and intense games that Exos will ever be used in. (not saying that it shuoldnt be considered when making changes, just not the priority)
Expanding on the "vulnerable spots"
What if Exos had different Armor pools for different sections.
Such as:
300 armor for center/cockpit/legs (front and back hitbox)
200 armor for fist (think shield) (side hitbox)
150 armor for each gun (side hitbox)
This would make it possible to disable an Exo's weapons until fixed (think powernodes; once broken, cant function until all the way repaired)
- This would also allow Exos to be more survivable since they could shift damage onto other parts to keep themselves alive.
-- The fist could be used like a shield in this instance, thus giving it more usefulness
Also, the total armor could be increased as long as the ability to be beaconed is removed.
Exos are the highest investment a Marine team can make, they should be scary and powerful, though not overpowered.
P.S. If Exos had a welder tool they could buy (maybe 5-10 pres?), that would be a HUGE step in the right direction.
Is that SERIOUSLY why the armour was reduced?
I dont think I have spoken to anyone that didnt like the mechanic of forcing a beacon to take out exos (a common, standard start used to take out any marine entrenchment).
The commonplace need to do this kind of solidified exos intention as a game-ender. Even if you forced a beacon you had to kill them fast or they'd either retreat to safety or stay and kill your hive.
It probably sounds really cranky of me to say this, but I really would prefer if these changes were reverted. I'm usually quite progressive and try to understand and support change but the old exo gameplay really was more fun, for everyone.
Additionally getting repeatedly beaconed as an exo just as you're reaching the hive and having to make the walk allll the way back over there is pretty damned annoying.
I agree with balancing the Exo for pub play instead of thinking comp. as its mobility and baby sitters required hampers it being used in comp (and that is fine with me).
I would suggest you can't beacon Exos as mention above, and to counter the paper thin armor it now has, to just bump up armor a little. Also, revert the rail back to the way it was (able to hold your max charge for a few seconds). No competent alien would get hit by a max charge rail right now as it discharges as soon as it reaches max charge (no time to aim).
I like the suggestion about different load outs etc... But I think coding and animations etc... will make it hard to do without dumping alot of resources in it (and I don't think UWE should at this point of the development cycle (unless they have a Dropship program like Reinforced)). So that being said, the changes would have to be tweaks that do not require additional assets being created.
I also liked the gameplay of forcing a beacon to end an exo push, but I'm not sure it should be in the game. The problem is that beacon vs bilebomb is just way too big a part of the game. I rarely see a game where the commander doesn't beacon several times in the endgame unless the aliens are totally boxed in and have given up.
If you can't beacon exos, then I would like to see the cost of upgrades for gorges increased. Right now low pres aliens can suicide spam gorges over and over again, which is invariably countered by beaconing for each one. If you make upgraded gorgers a little more costly (or the gorges more fragile due to not having costly upgrades) then beaconing becomes rarer, and the restriction on exos becomes a better more intense mechanic.
Sadly true. I'd like to add that in a public game, if you see your base is vulnerable to bile rushes, it is YOUR duty to stay and guard it. It's everyone's collective responsibility but if you're the one considerate enough to notice it, you should take it upon yourself to prevent unneeded expensive beacons.
Super tough, not that high dps, very slow, but spores devastate them?
I wouldn't mind if exos had 1k hp tbh if it took them about a minute to get from tech point to tech point (where it would take about 20 seconds for laliens)
So you'd put them to guard arc trains, or defend important bases.
They could also be welded by an unlimited numbers of MACs that kept on welding even if they were damaged (and the MACs also welded each other), making them pretty much unkillable (which is why now only a single MAC will weld a target, and why MAC's stop welding when damaged).
So lots have changed since the original Exos came out.
The current Exos basically trades some of their armor for more speed and the ability to be beaconed.
Ehh the jet assist / forward only thrusters and ability to exit an exo are both almost useless features.
I wouldn't consider either a buff of any kind. One makes you go slightly faster from point A to point B, with no advantage in actual combat and the other is risky and ill advised in most cases.
The MAC army welding was a real issue, but that was changed/fixed for a good while before the other nerfs were put into place, so i wouldn't factor that in at all in regards to Exo balance.
Lastly, trading their armor for more speed makes a tiny bit of sense (i don't think it was a balanced trade, but meh) but being able to be beaconed can just as easily be a nerf and therefore should not justify lower armor, imo.
Also, dont forget that you now slow down while firing, and that your dualminiguns overheat way easier (the latter which was honestly needed to fit a role)
I'd like to see at least a 70 armor increase (%15 increase) and remove beaconing of Exos
http://www.twitch.tv/turtsmcgurt/c/3803128
sadly because i'm retarded you can't hear my ingame mic on the stream, but i'm microing them telling them when to get in and out and when to push the other base. i should have also had a drifter up north, but as I said retarded. i think it was the Rage guy who didn't believe that this could ever work and that I "should be giving the team actual strategies, not theories of what could work"
If you wanted to add a FT or welder, you would need to get into 3D Studio and make the models and animations ... should be able to reuse most of the welder/FT Lua code though.
You could just have one pool of total heat, mechwarrior style.
This seems like a very fun idea. As for modelling and animation work, Ive seen fan made content that looks as good if not better than the stock stuff (the NS2classic rifle comes to mind). Not that the devs will ever ask the community for help with content, there are probably legal reasons not to or some silly bollox of that nature.
I would argue that killing a fade is either with an exo though than as a normal rifle marine (unless you have some jetpack skills and that fade is not too good)
Marine play is largely about positioning. Exos can move so fast now it doesnt really matter what their positioning is like because they can go back on any mistake easily.
I would quite happily see their speed reduced again (they have lateral thrusters now so should be less painful to maneuver than pre-thrusters) and have armour increased back to old values, and have their ability to be beaconed taken away.
All that was needed was the ability to exit them, and we got that, which is great! Its just the rest of the changes took away a beloved mechanic of the game and turned exosuits from something that was once feared by aliens and seen as a deathtrap by marines because they couldnt be exited, into something that is not feared by aliens, and seen as a deathtrap by marines because they are so damned weak and useless.