I don't know how you could call the Kharaa the "defensive" team when they HAVE to take over Hives to upgrade.
Whereas the Marines can fully exploit their entire tech tree from inside their base. Albeit slower, but it is entirely possible for them to go from nothing to fully-upgraded HMG/HA Marines without leaving their doors.
<!--QuoteBegin--404NotFound+Nov 24 2002, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Nov 24 2002, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have to agree that when a newb makes sensory chambers... it's over.
One time, a gorg made sensory chambers INSTEAD OF DEFENCE chambers, we tried as hard as we could toget a 2nd hive to make defence, but it was all for naught.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Soooo, you're on TAU? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still see no reason whatsoever to take sensory before movement or defense.
Sorry Lerks and Fades (and Skulks to a lesser extent), but it's just silly to have energy regain twice as fast when you're busting their outposts. You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times. So you're a "n00b" (how I despise that term) if you think movement should be before sensory and you actually want to attack from the front. All the smart people are taking sensory first.
just had sensory built as our first upgrade, not because people wanted it or for any good reason BUT
"I like cloak" said the gorge at the hive.
argh. yes cloaking was useful to a degree but we were about to go fade and so when defence upgrade was placed in the 2nd hive, we fades had to deal with limited offensive abilites but hey, we could cloak in a corner somewhere! joy!
its frustating when team policy is dictated by a single gorge who ignores the rest of the team and lives in a fantasy world.
Marines have to expand to win but then again if aliens let the marines get a foothold in 2 hives then they've pretty much screwed up. Both sides have to attack. For aliens, fades especially are wasted in defence. Marines have a bit more flexiblity and can take that first hive and then just sit there defending until HA + HMG when they can just rock'n'roll through the alien defences if they keep together, weld each other often and get support from the comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--PJ-+Nov 24 2002, 11:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PJ- @ Nov 24 2002, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think its possible to make a sweeping statement that the Marines or Aliens are Offensive or Defensive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
<!--QuoteBegin--padijun+Nov 24 2002, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (padijun @ Nov 24 2002, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still see no reason whatsoever to take sensory before movement or defense.
Sorry Lerks and Fades (and Skulks to a lesser extent), but it's just silly to have energy regain twice as fast when you're busting their outposts. You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times. So you're a "n00b" (how I despise that term) if you think movement should be before sensory and you actually want to attack from the front. All the smart people are taking sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm sure you're being ironic... otherwise that's pure <i>comedy</i>. However for the sake of it, I'll react as if you weren't being so.
fades when attacking a heavily fortified base need energy levels to rise as quickly as possible, far too often 3 acid rounds will deplete a fade's energy without adrenaline and it takes 5 or more seconds to get off another round. With adrenaline the fade can constantly be pounding the base defence, without it they have to constantly wait for enough energy to continue the barrage.
So adrenaline really makes a fade's life much more easy, cloak doesn't help a fade <b>attack a base</b> in the slightest. It may help the fade ambush marines but if they need to attack a base then cloak is pretty pointless, and more often than not the marines have taken a hive and need to be dislodged.
Finally...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ooh so i can kill a marine or two with a funny trick with my cloaked alien. Wow, that's really going to win the game for us. Us "noobs" are being dumb enough to destroy their bases and attack, whilst you "veterans" are hiding in corners and pouncing on a marine or two. Gosh, I've been so dumb!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think its possible to make a sweeping statement that the Marines or Aliens are Offensive or Defensive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acutal its very easy to make a sweeping statment
Which team wins if the other stays in Spawn? Alien or Marine?
It´s really annoying when the gorges screw up your upgrade combo making a sensory chamber, but you can get some serious advantage if you know how to use sensory chambers well..... You can still win with a different approach to the bases...
just had a game where everyone on team seemingly agreed that we need movement after defence then a damn gorge built sensory. ffs if we get it for a reason fine but not because one person <i>likes</i> it. Especially when the team managed to lose the hive with defence upgrade because they were all off cloaked in corners waiting to ambush marines <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Bean+Nov 24 2002, 02:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Bean @ Nov 24 2002, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acutal its very easy to make a sweeping statment
Which team wins if the other stays in Spawn? Alien or Marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, no.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Typhon+Nov 24 2002, 02:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Nov 24 2002, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its really dependant on whether or not the marines have taken the third hive yet. If they have fortified it, you really do need adrenaline to break it down (fades acid rocekting, lerks umbraing). If they DONT have the third hive, or they dont have a phase gate in it, then cloak can work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea. If the marines have already lost, then sensory is ok because it doesn't matter.
Adrenaline is good for brute force attacking, however, I find that the best way to remove humans building defense at a hive node is to not let them start building in the first place.
The best way to do that is by being cloaked. Sure fades can try to acid bomb the turrets and wear down their defense slowly (assuming humans don't have phase gate to get easy access and repair it). However, another even more effective method is to just stay cloaked and kill humans building resource node. Easiest, fastest, and most cost effective way to secure a hive.
Most people are too set in their ways to realize that def/move/sen isn't the only way to win. In one of my first games ever, the gorges were great, but went sens/def/move. We bottled them up in their base with invisible skulks on their exits, and gorges that were building hives instead of outposts. 20 min in the game, everyone went onos and we crushed them. You can never underestimate the value of outsmarting the marines, yet most people think that you need to muscle your way through the map.
I don't think people are disputing that the best way to win is to bottle the marines up in their base BUT if they have managed to escape and set up a base in a hive as any half-decent marine team should be able to do THEN you will need adrenaline to kill off that base most of the time.
If marines can take a hive and hold it until they get HA + HMG in quantity then they will win 99% of the time. If the aliens can retake that 3rd hive or force the marines to spend so much of their resources rebuilding destroyed resourcers/buildings that they can not afford good weaponry then they will win 99% of the time. Stupidity/incompetence on the behalf a team can always **obscenity** defeat from the jaws of victory though.
So in most cases adrenaline > cloaking because you are no longer merely defending what you have taken but are forced to attack fortified positions, which with good teamwork and a competent commander can be extremely difficult if not impossible.
I remember before the gridlock pw was changed playing a game on eclipse. I join and find the aliens built sensory first so I'm a little miffed and I state this fact and quickly my argement is stamped out with them supporting the idea so I'm like I'll try this. I've never ever seen the marines lose so badly on eclipse. Their commander was no newbie but when yo have 3 cloaked skulks just itching for you to build you aint gonna last. Now we get hive #2 up and we get d chambers and we've basically locked the marines in their base and started with the acid rockets and umbra and the occasional skulk run. But they're locked in their base because they can't expand. Hive #3 is barely up when their base starts to crumble and I hardly had any use for adrenaline. Use your heads with cloaking you can ambush them before they can expand much and cost them dearly in resources. Cloaking is excellent if you have 1-2 guys acting as bait bleeding off the marines and isolating a few that try to build and end up food.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited November 2002
You're ALL WEIRD.
Cloak is far superior to me than ANY of the movement abilities.
1) It's not like Observatory has a long range. You can get out of it quite easy.
2) Fade. F.A.D.E. See the name? Not exactly descriptive of an assault creature, is it? That's because (boys & girls) IT'S NOT! It's not meant to stand at their base entrance, lobbing continuous Acid. The reason you're failing with cloak, is because you actually do FAR better with Fades/Cloak if you melee. I rack up 40+ kills every match this way, and I happily advocate Sensory second.
3)If you really are that bad at energy management that you NEED adren (which I hear all the time) then you SHOULDN'T BE A FADE. Go back to Skulking, and stop bothering me while I eat some HA's.
4) If someone sensor scans, MOVE! Jesus, it's not hard.
5) It's actually RIDICULOUSLY easy to break a base with a Fade with Regen/Cloak rather than Cara/Adren. Because you can continuously draw the marines out, and they quite quickly run out of RP's, and then you kill them. So until you've had to watch at least me (and I'm sure, lots of other Cloak Faders) break in without any Adren, don't say it can't be done.
Edited to correct spelling, and point out that I don't want this to sound as harsh as it does, but I'm sick to death of the over reliance of people on Adrenaline.
<!--QuoteBegin--Demerzel+Nov 24 2002, 12:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Demerzel @ Nov 24 2002, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->its frustating when team policy is dictated by a single gorge who ignores the rest of the team<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's the real issue here. There's no consensus, just whomever happens to build whatever chamber at the right time.
As for cloaking vs adrenaline or carapace...
It's very simple, I think. Cloaking depends heavily on how skilled and knowledgeable the marines (and their commander) are, at least when compared to movement or defense upgrades. So there is a tendency to get them, also because the chambers themselves--defense and movement--tend to be of greater use to aliens if they have good communication and know how to use hivesight.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited November 2002
<bitterness> Cheers Terr.
Why don't you just say any of us that believe in cloak (and/or specialize in it) are just n00bs who happen to be lucky, don't co-ordinate & only succeed against even n00ber marines? </bitterness>
So, Shockwave, what you're saying is it's easier to take out base with cloaking by luring them out and hiding then actually taking out their structures? What game are you playing? When I open a base door, run in, run out, I don't get followed by a pack of unsuspectiong marines whom I easily prey upon after uncloaking. And now you're claiming that the fade, the workhorse of the Kharaa army, is some kind of ninja stealth trooper meant not to shoot it's freaking missile weapons. Knock yourself out if you want to charge the 4 LMG marines at the end of that hallway with your claws or spending 10 minutes to try to sneak around them and flank them. Now I'm sure you'll insist that they'll walk right past you every time so you can prey upon them at your leisure. As for energy... Would you rather make $20 or $40 dollars an hour at work? Sure, you can live off of $20 an hour, but $40 would be so much more comfortable. That's exactly what it is. Aliens can live, or live comfortably.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Nov 24 2002, 11:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Nov 24 2002, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) It's actually RIDICULOUSLY easy to break a base with a Fade with Regen/Cloak rather than Cara/Adren. Because you can continuously draw the marines out, and they quite quickly run out of RP's, and then you kill them. So until you've had to watch at least me (and I'm sure, lots of other Cloak Faders) break in without any Adren, don't say it can't be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry but most marines don't venture too far from a base when they're under attack from fades. They certainly don't all charge out yelling "kill me! kill me!" when they know there are fades nearby.
Even if you kill off the marines at the base, how do you use cloak to take down a large bunch of turrets? With limited energy due to cloak you will take a long time to kill the turrets and if they have a phase gate there they will be able to refit the lot whilst you do so. Even without phase gates they will probably be able to reinforce the base whilst you attack.
I guess you could kill all the marines in the base and then cloak outside it waiting for them to return then ambush them again. Sure that'd get you plenty of kills for your personal score but wouldn't really do much damage to the base would it?
For those who think fades are only supposed to hide in the shadows, what would you use to take on the enemy base? the fade is supposed to be a tank, equivalent in many respects to a HA + HMG marine. If all the fade did was hide in the shadows, then the aliens would be quite literally up a certain creek without a paddle. cloaking would help a fade who was more worried about his personal score and his ambush abilities, adrenaline sure helps the fade who is attacking and is prepared to kamikaze an alien base in order to use every bit of energy he possesses to remove that turret factory or infantry portal and <i>further his team's cause</i>.
Thats the prime aurgment is it not? The Invisable Skulks keep the Marines bottled up, but if they don't do that Cloak is useless to take out the buildings they will be building because you did not keep them bottled up
However if the Marines followed the SP-SP-Observatory-TF+Turret building order cloaking is now uselss
Remeber that with 25 RP your bottling them up with cloaked Marine stratagy is now useless, Plus on some Maps cloaking is downright uselss as there as so many Dark corners you could hide in even without cloaking
Bast/Tanith/Hera/Nothing Comes to mind as four examples of lots of hiding places, Eclipse is one map where it might work, where else?
in a reply to the guy who thought movement chambers were completely useless.. You can go silence and hide somewhere nearby a favorite build-spot of marines.. then you can just walk over and crunch him, or them if you're lucky.
As for NEEDING fades with adrenaline to crack a base.. 3 good skulks can flatten a turret factory with just carapace (celerity sometimes help that strat).. There is NO one strat, and sometimes it's annoying to see them shoot down all others. I'm with the underdogs(those that support sensory chambers) b/c everyone else seems to think adrenaline and def chambers are the only things to do.
Ninja skulks are very evil.. almost as evil as ninja onos (but ninja onos are almost pointless).
for n00bs, ninja=silence,cloak... it also can include regen (they can't hear you heal)
Play style adjustments? You mean instead of winning, we should lose? Because Adrenaline IS REQUIRED for a base seige, on pubs. Some clans might have other ways. On pubs you don't have the communication, foresight, planning, and skill of a clan.
You need adrenaline to seige that base. Any smart Gorge will do Defence, Movement, Sensory. I hear sometimes lamers go Gorge and build a sensory first then switch teams. Sure it helps with Skulking. But when you get Fades you need Adrenaline and Regen/Carapace/Redemption. You won't have that with Sensory.
Rare exception is when two gorges have enough to simultaneously bring up the last two hives (not very smart since it's a lot harder to defend them).
Gorges, DEFENCE, MOVEMENT, SENSORY. Any other way is kicking your team in the nuts. And you DO want to win, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Nov 25 2002, 03:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Nov 25 2002, 03:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop whining that you can't take out turret farms solo with fade without carapace; you are being a deathmatcher. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens were made for deathmatchers, dude. And seriously, on pubs you expect someone to Lerk and sit around umbra-ing you for fun? That's boring!
This "ideal team design" thing that some people think SHOULD exist in every game simply does not. Maybe if you've got a clan, I can see that. Not on pubs. People play there to have fun or frag n00bs. Either way, all these "well if you had an Umbra and a Lerk following you around or a Gorge with nothing better to do to follow you around and if you were better and had better aim and were blessed with premonition (seeing the future) THEN you'd be able to do it noob" comments are annoying and self-touting snide remarks at people who aren't as "enlightened" as thou.
Get off the high horses people! Ideal games rarely happen. It's a bunch of random people trying to win. If you want supreme strategy based play, join a clan. If you're on the pubs, you've got to assume everyone on your team needs help (unless proven otherwise). That's why the Def, Move, Sense order came into use.
It's the most advantageous for the play style of the casual online gamer. Defence to heal and protect buildings and hives. It's not really useful for skulks, but it keeps marine rushes and attacks on your territory from devastating you early on and provides remote healing positions which are useful at any number of hives. Movement next to get Adrenaline so you can have the skulks go to Fade and be able to function a LOT better. After that, it's basically a matter of time until the final seige of the marine base with Onos's. Sensory is sort of obsolete. It's fun, but it dosen't help win public games.
That's how the pubs usually play out. An entire team of strangers taking up a totally new and enlightened view of strategy, especially a complicated "if / then" that you must accomplish to prevent the HMGs from tearing you to shreds while you've got an expensive Fade, is unrealistic.
Get over the "other way to win if u were smart" arguments. Def, move, Sense is a dang good way to win. It works more often than it dosen't. And it caters to the non-forumers. There's really no other way on the pubs. Sure there's flukes and I'm <b>SURE</b> you've had some games that went other ways and still won. Great. My point is, stop assuming people care enough to read the forums, read your post, see that ONE instance where you did something and won, and then try to implement that in a pub.
As for Fades taking out turret farms solo, I do it daily with no problem. Just takes either time, or a foolish commander (Adrenaline SURE helps tho <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Carapace Fades are good against about 3 turrets at once, if you can't reach the factory or they built it into the map and it's indestructable.
pft, anyone who thinks any one chamber type is better then the other is a fool.
Each of the three chamber types allow awesome upgrades and extra benifits.
If you think the sensory chamber is usless, play with it more. Flayra once built some sensory chambers during one PT while we were all yelling for defence (it was the first chamber). He pretty much said shut up and play.
It turned out to be one of the best games I've had. The sensory chamber is an awesome chamber. It gives advance warning of incoming marines, will parisite any marine who's stupid enough to touch it <b>and</b> it gives the abillity to cloak.
The other two chamber types only give 2 benifits, the sensory gives 3.
Never get upset because a Gorge places a type of chamber you didn't want. If you want that chamber first, play Gorge.
Don't give me that crap about "But if I do, there will be too many Gorges!". Aliens play for them selves - team play is only a benifit to them, not a requirement.
Comments
Whereas the Marines can fully exploit their entire tech tree from inside their base. Albeit slower, but it is entirely possible for them to go from nothing to fully-upgraded HMG/HA Marines without leaving their doors.
Each Species primary role depends on the map in question, and each teams strategy (or lack there of) for it.
I don't think its possible to make a sweeping statement that the Marines or Aliens are Offensive or Defensive.
One time, a gorg made sensory chambers INSTEAD OF DEFENCE chambers, we tried as hard as we could toget a 2nd hive to make defence, but it was all for naught.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo, you're on TAU? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry Lerks and Fades (and Skulks to a lesser extent), but it's just silly to have energy regain twice as fast when you're busting their outposts. You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times. So you're a "n00b" (how I despise that term) if you think movement should be before sensory and you actually want to attack from the front. All the smart people are taking sensory first.
"I like cloak" said the gorge at the hive.
argh. yes cloaking was useful to a degree but we were about to go fade and so when defence upgrade was placed in the 2nd hive, we fades had to deal with limited offensive abilites but hey, we could cloak in a corner somewhere! joy!
its frustating when team policy is dictated by a single gorge who ignores the rest of the team and lives in a fantasy world.
Marines have to expand to win but then again if aliens let the marines get a foothold in 2 hives then they've pretty much screwed up. Both sides have to attack. For aliens, fades especially are wasted in defence. Marines have a bit more flexiblity and can take that first hive and then just sit there defending until HA + HMG when they can just rock'n'roll through the alien defences if they keep together, weld each other often and get support from the comm.
Exactly.
Sorry Lerks and Fades (and Skulks to a lesser extent), but it's just silly to have energy regain twice as fast when you're busting their outposts. You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times. So you're a "n00b" (how I despise that term) if you think movement should be before sensory and you actually want to attack from the front. All the smart people are taking sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm sure you're being ironic... otherwise that's pure <i>comedy</i>. However for the sake of it, I'll react as if you weren't being so.
fades when attacking a heavily fortified base need energy levels to rise as quickly as possible, far too often 3 acid rounds will deplete a fade's energy without adrenaline and it takes 5 or more seconds to get off another round. With adrenaline the fade can constantly be pounding the base defence, without it they have to constantly wait for enough energy to continue the barrage.
So adrenaline really makes a fade's life much more easy, cloak doesn't help a fade <b>attack a base</b> in the slightest. It may help the fade ambush marines but if they need to attack a base then cloak is pretty pointless, and more often than not the marines have taken a hive and need to be dislodged.
Finally...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You see, the <i>good</i> people need sensory chambers to play a funny trick on the marines and hit them in the back a few times.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ooh so i can kill a marine or two with a funny trick with my cloaked alien. Wow, that's really going to win the game for us. Us "noobs" are being dumb enough to destroy their bases and attack, whilst you "veterans" are hiding in corners and pouncing on a marine or two. Gosh, I've been so dumb!
Acutal its very easy to make a sweeping statment
Which team wins if the other stays in Spawn?
Alien or Marine?
When trying to take Hive 3, Or Resource nodes
WHICH IS MORE EFFECTIVE
Skulk with Cloaking VS Skulk with Cellenity
Lurk with Cloaking VS Lurk with Addrellien
Fade with Cloaking VS Fade with Addrellien
Cloaking is nice but it can be defeated for a Single RP Point temporarly or Premtaly for 25, And Yes Observatorys range is not huge but you know what?
Where do you cloak fokes?
FYI most maps have enough Dark Corners that Silence is a better choice that Cloaking
You can still win with a different approach to the bases...
Which team wins if the other stays in Spawn?
Alien or Marine?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, no.
If Marines stay in Spawn, the Aliens win.
If the Aliens stay in spawn, the Marine wins.
Yea. If the marines have already lost, then sensory is ok because it doesn't matter.
The best way to do that is by being cloaked. Sure fades can try to acid bomb the turrets and wear down their defense slowly (assuming humans don't have phase gate to get easy access and repair it). However, another even more effective method is to just stay cloaked and kill humans building resource node. Easiest, fastest, and most cost effective way to secure a hive.
*EDIT* Me spell good! */EDIT*
If marines can take a hive and hold it until they get HA + HMG in quantity then they will win 99% of the time. If the aliens can retake that 3rd hive or force the marines to spend so much of their resources rebuilding destroyed resourcers/buildings that they can not afford good weaponry then they will win 99% of the time. Stupidity/incompetence on the behalf a team can always **obscenity** defeat from the jaws of victory though.
So in most cases adrenaline > cloaking because you are no longer merely defending what you have taken but are forced to attack fortified positions, which with good teamwork and a competent commander can be extremely difficult if not impossible.
Cloak is far superior to me than ANY of the movement abilities.
1) It's not like Observatory has a long range. You can get out of it quite easy.
2) Fade. F.A.D.E. See the name? Not exactly descriptive of an assault creature, is it? That's because (boys & girls) IT'S NOT! It's not meant to stand at their base entrance, lobbing continuous Acid. The reason you're failing with cloak, is because you actually do FAR better with Fades/Cloak if you melee. I rack up 40+ kills every match this way, and I happily advocate Sensory second.
3)If you really are that bad at energy management that you NEED adren (which I hear all the time) then you SHOULDN'T BE A FADE. Go back to Skulking, and stop bothering me while I eat some HA's.
4) If someone sensor scans, MOVE! Jesus, it's not hard.
5) It's actually RIDICULOUSLY easy to break a base with a Fade with Regen/Cloak rather than Cara/Adren. Because you can continuously draw the marines out, and they quite quickly run out of RP's, and then you kill them. So until you've had to watch at least me (and I'm sure, lots of other Cloak Faders) break in without any Adren, don't say it can't be done.
Edited to correct spelling, and point out that I don't want this to sound as harsh as it does, but I'm sick to death of the over reliance of people on Adrenaline.
I think that's the real issue here. There's no consensus, just whomever happens to build whatever chamber at the right time.
As for cloaking vs adrenaline or carapace...
It's very simple, I think. Cloaking depends heavily on how skilled and knowledgeable the marines (and their commander) are, at least when compared to movement or defense upgrades. So there is a tendency to get them, also because the chambers themselves--defense and movement--tend to be of greater use to aliens if they have good communication and know how to use hivesight.
Cheers Terr.
Why don't you just say any of us that believe in cloak (and/or specialize in it) are just n00bs who happen to be lucky, don't co-ordinate & only succeed against even n00ber marines?
</bitterness>
Edited cos I'm a mong tonight, and can't spell.
I'm sorry but most marines don't venture too far from a base when they're under attack from fades. They certainly don't all charge out yelling "kill me! kill me!" when they know there are fades nearby.
Even if you kill off the marines at the base, how do you use cloak to take down a large bunch of turrets? With limited energy due to cloak you will take a long time to kill the turrets and if they have a phase gate there they will be able to refit the lot whilst you do so. Even without phase gates they will probably be able to reinforce the base whilst you attack.
I guess you could kill all the marines in the base and then cloak outside it waiting for them to return then ambush them again. Sure that'd get you plenty of kills for your personal score but wouldn't really do much damage to the base would it?
For those who think fades are only supposed to hide in the shadows, what would you use to take on the enemy base? the fade is supposed to be a tank, equivalent in many respects to a HA + HMG marine. If all the fade did was hide in the shadows, then the aliens would be quite literally up a certain creek without a paddle. cloaking would help a fade who was more worried about his personal score and his ambush abilities, adrenaline sure helps the fade who is attacking and is prepared to kamikaze an alien base in order to use every bit of energy he possesses to remove that turret factory or infantry portal and <i>further his team's cause</i>.
However if the Marines followed the SP-SP-Observatory-TF+Turret building order cloaking is now uselss
Remeber that with 25 RP your bottling them up with cloaked Marine stratagy is now useless, Plus on some Maps cloaking is downright uselss as there as so many Dark corners you could hide in even without cloaking
Bast/Tanith/Hera/Nothing Comes to mind as four examples of lots of hiding places, Eclipse is one map where it might work, where else?
As for NEEDING fades with adrenaline to crack a base.. 3 good skulks can flatten a turret factory with just carapace (celerity sometimes help that strat).. There is NO one strat, and sometimes it's annoying to see them shoot down all others. I'm with the underdogs(those that support sensory chambers) b/c everyone else seems to think adrenaline and def chambers are the only things to do.
Ninja skulks are very evil.. almost as evil as ninja onos (but ninja onos are almost pointless).
for n00bs, ninja=silence,cloak... it also can include regen (they can't hear you heal)
Play style adjustments? You mean instead of winning, we should lose?
Because Adrenaline IS REQUIRED for a base seige, on pubs. Some clans might have other ways. On pubs you don't have the communication, foresight, planning, and skill of a clan.
You need adrenaline to seige that base. Any smart Gorge will do Defence, Movement, Sensory. I hear sometimes lamers go Gorge and build a sensory first then switch teams. Sure it helps with Skulking. But when you get Fades you need Adrenaline and Regen/Carapace/Redemption. You won't have that with Sensory.
Rare exception is when two gorges have enough to simultaneously bring up the last two hives (not very smart since it's a lot harder to defend them).
Gorges, DEFENCE, MOVEMENT, SENSORY. Any other way is kicking your team in the nuts. And you DO want to win, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens were made for deathmatchers, dude. And seriously, on pubs you expect someone to Lerk and sit around umbra-ing you for fun? That's boring!
This "ideal team design" thing that some people think SHOULD exist in every game simply does not. Maybe if you've got a clan, I can see that. Not on pubs. People play there to have fun or frag n00bs. Either way, all these "well if you had an Umbra and a Lerk following you around or a Gorge with nothing better to do to follow you around and if you were better and had better aim and were blessed with premonition (seeing the future) THEN you'd be able to do it noob" comments are annoying and self-touting snide remarks at people who aren't as "enlightened" as thou.
Get off the high horses people! Ideal games rarely happen. It's a bunch of random people trying to win. If you want supreme strategy based play, join a clan. If you're on the pubs, you've got to assume everyone on your team needs help (unless proven otherwise). That's why the Def, Move, Sense order came into use.
It's the most advantageous for the play style of the casual online gamer. Defence to heal and protect buildings and hives. It's not really useful for skulks, but it keeps marine rushes and attacks on your territory from devastating you early on and provides remote healing positions which are useful at any number of hives. Movement next to get Adrenaline so you can have the skulks go to Fade and be able to function a LOT better. After that, it's basically a matter of time until the final seige of the marine base with Onos's. Sensory is sort of obsolete. It's fun, but it dosen't help win public games.
That's how the pubs usually play out. An entire team of strangers taking up a totally new and enlightened view of strategy, especially a complicated "if / then" that you must accomplish to prevent the HMGs from tearing you to shreds while you've got an expensive Fade, is unrealistic.
Get over the "other way to win if u were smart" arguments. Def, move, Sense is a dang good way to win. It works more often than it dosen't. And it caters to the non-forumers. There's really no other way on the pubs. Sure there's flukes and I'm <b>SURE</b> you've had some games that went other ways and still won. Great. My point is, stop assuming people care enough to read the forums, read your post, see that ONE instance where you did something and won, and then try to implement that in a pub.
As for Fades taking out turret farms solo, I do it daily with no problem. Just takes either time, or a foolish commander (Adrenaline SURE helps tho <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Carapace Fades are good against about 3 turrets at once, if you can't reach the factory or they built it into the map and it's indestructable.
Each of the three chamber types allow awesome upgrades and extra benifits.
If you think the sensory chamber is usless, play with it more. Flayra once built some sensory chambers during one PT while we were all yelling for defence (it was the first chamber). He pretty much said shut up and play.
It turned out to be one of the best games I've had. The sensory chamber is an awesome chamber. It gives advance warning of incoming marines, will parisite any marine who's stupid enough to touch it <b>and</b> it gives the abillity to cloak.
The other two chamber types only give 2 benifits, the sensory gives 3.
Never get upset because a Gorge places a type of chamber you didn't want. If you want that chamber first, play Gorge.
Don't give me that crap about "But if I do, there will be too many Gorges!". Aliens play for them selves - team play is only a benifit to them, not a requirement.
Go Gorge, build 3 chambers, go Skulk.
Or, just stfu and play.