Perfect Peckers vs Aphex unfairly forced to forfeit a match.

tagwolf

I (we as a team) would like to post this as a complaint against the current end result of the match Perfect Peckers vs Aphex which ended in a 'forfeit' win for Perfect Peckers. I would like to argue that team Aphex was unfairly forced a forfeit when we had 5 players online from our team and one merc tap from table of six (also a div 2 team).

Zefram, decided to override the rules and disallowed Tap to play. Which is fine and completely within the rules. I consider it in bad taste to do disallow Tap as he is playing on a div 2 team. However, we as a team still had 5 players online, on the server and ready to play. We should, at the very least have been allowed to play a 5v6 instead of forced a forfeit.

You can see we had everyone online and ready to play from Ren's stream which can be seen here:
http://www.twitch.tv/ren26/b/519294940

tagwolf

We also were able to field a second merc IMMEDIATELY. Which the second PP heard, they all left.

In general bad sportsmanship. We just wanted to play a game.

The main problem I have is multiple refs saying different things. But this doesnt excuse the general BM when we just want to play a game for fun.

I hope this never happens to any of you.

nezz

5v6 is a joke, you are wasting your time & the other teams time & ren's time playing as so.

If your story is correct i think it should've been played. Judgement reserved untill the man in question replies.

tagwolf

When we suggested another merc, rather...the SECOND we suggested another merc (Fiskbit). they ALL left the server.

Just to quote a few rules:

NSL would like to remind teams that it is more fun and challenging to beat a 6-man team than a 5 or a 4-man team, and that you should allow substitutes as long as they seem fair.

(e) Substitutes can not be denied in an attempt to force a forfeit.

It's unfortunate. All we wanted to do was play. We're sorry to the 50-some viewers on Ren's cast, to Ren himself for wasting his time, and in general to the community.

This isn't what NS2 is about.

I posted the following on the match page:

After the incident described in detail in our uwe forum post, along with logs, documentation, etc. While we feel PP's behavior was unprofessional and exceedingly unsportsmanlike. We are, per Zefram's instructions, willing to reschedule and play PP at a later date.

http://www.ensl.org/matches/5538

This match will be played. And we promise when it is, it'll be worth the wait! thanks for everyone's support so far.

detector

"(e) Substitutes can not be denied in an attempt to force a forfeit."
is the phrase to keep in mind here.
(e) Substitutes can not be denied in an attempt to force a forfeit.

_Revilo_

You turned up with a merc who is arguably of a higher skill level (tap), so it isn't that unreasonable of Perfect Peckers to not want to play you. In fact, turning up with a merc who is higher-skilled than the team he is mercing for is probably more unsportsmanlike.

I'm basing this off the fact that tap used to play for mimic, and afaik he is still a skilled player, and several of my friends seem to agree with me about his skill level compared to Aphex's. Feel free to correct me if he has suddenly forgotten how to move his mouse

Berend

We didn't force anything at all, I wasn't myself negotiating with zefram and the ref so I can't speak for them but we had a valid reason for refusing the merc and were also more than ready to play should you have come up with an aprovable merc in time, which wasn't the case so the admin and ref called it a forfeit.
Last week we asked you to reschedule so we could have our saturday's off, you refused and now you ask for rescheduling 1 hour before the match.
It's not our fault that you couldn't field a full team on the scheduled time when you had a chance to reschedule before.
I'm sorry things didn't go the way you wanted but its definitly not our fault.

nezz

just play, who cares. no one should forfiet ever.

CCTEE

I was looking forward to seeing the match, sad it had to go the way it did.
That's 50 people x 40 min wasted (players excluded). Ahwell, not like we where busy anyway.

Both sides make valid arguments why they are right.
In the end both teams failed having fun playing the game we all love.

So both teams should do a little soulsearching and figure out why that is.

Kaneh

"Unsportsmanlike" is not having 6 people from your team to play at the scheduled time.

I really don't understand why people are blaming Perfect Peckers. If you don't have 6 from your team, its YOUR job to find someone who they'll accept as a merc. Its not thier job to do anything. Get your shit together. If you just wanted to play, I'm pretty sure there were like 20 people on the NA pug mumble that could've merced for you.

Zefram, decided to override the rules and disallowed Tap to play. Which is fine and completely within the rules.

do you not see how you're contradicting yourself? Zefram overrided rules but... was also following the rules?

Kaneh

also, from what's been said, 40 mins delay?

This is stupid. You cannot confirm mercs beforehand? or in the 15 mins you have to sort your shit out? in fact in 40 mins you couldn't?

Everything that's happened is the fault of the team that could not field 6 players. This is very, very clear cut.

Unprofessional and unsportsmanlike. Really. If you want to bring that kinda shit up, think of any other sport or game. If you can't field a team you forfeit. Very simple. You dont' play 5v4 basketball. You dont' play 6v5 hockey. That's an insult to fans, spectators, the other team, and everyone else involved.

Having to use a merc is unprofessional and unsportsmanlike to begin with.

NeXuS

Kaneh wrote: »

Having to use a merc is unprofessional and unsportsmanlike to begin with.

Easy to say when you have 15 people on a roster. Not everyone has that luxury, Kaneh.

If you look at the timeline on Ren's video, the teams didn't start joining until 40 minutes into the cast. PP left at the 53 minute mark. Do the math. They were only in the server for 13 minutes. Aphex had ample time find a more suitable merc for the match. The fact that PP just disconnected after only being on the server for 13 minutes constitutes as their behavior as unsportsmanlike and unprofessional.

Also, Aphex had 6 players ready. PP decided to not allow Tap to play, which is reasonable, but the fact still remains that they still had 6 players ready, so saying they need to "get their **** together" is uncalled for and immature.

Zefram

@tagwolf‌ I'm not really sure why you felt a public post on the official forums was necessary, considering you already opened a thread on the NSL forums (this is an NSL matter after all) AND I personally was in contact with you BEFORE and AFTER the match events to resolve these issues, most of which you failed to share in your post AND to your team members. But, as someone who is allowed to carry a hefty responsibility within the community, I will always answer for my "war crimes" and decisions. The tribunal begins...

You contacted me today, the morning of the match, less than 2 hours before the scheduled time, and asked if your team could have an extension because 2 members of your team were "MIA" (Note that reschedules must happen at least 24 hours in advance). I said no and that your team had to play the match within 10 days of the original match date (not scheduled date) or find mercs. I have said no to reschedule extensions request from every team. Those teams range from Premier to Division 4. Your team was not singled out. Match dates have been posted for almost 2 months and for the most part you know the general time frame of when matches ought to be played, 2 to 3 months in advance.

Let's be clear though, you scheduled this match at a time where your team was unable to field 6 players.

But that's ok. Unexpected things happen in real life and teams are allow to use substitutes (mercs) for matches. Teams in Division 2 and lower can use, not 1, but up to 2 mercs. This is where the drama of Tap comes in. Before the match occurred, Perfect Pecker's captain, ABadHabit, contacted me, about Aphex using Tap as a merc. The team was concerned that Tap would be a carry for Aphex. Saying no to a merc because of skill level is perfectly acceptable.

I felt their concerns are valid. Although Tap is on a division 2 team, he's got a record of playing on a high Division 1 team and recently has tried out for a European Premier division team. The main reason why Table for Six was placed into Division 2 at the start of the season was because Tap elevated the team play to a Division 2 level. This isn't to take away from the work that Table for Six has put in, but Tap is a huge force on that team. To say that he is an acceptable Division 2 merc is silly and would be unfair for teams playing against him as a substitute. The merc rule was written in a way where eligibility for mercing wasn't clearly decided directly by divisional lines, but the skill level of the player. It's absolutely ridiculous that you AND Tap would think he would be acceptable considering his history as a player and his own remarks about his skill level. Remember, less than a week ago, he tried out for a PREMIER team. That's all the evidence we need to understand how I and he perceives himself as a player. It wasn't anything personal. Just protecting fair play.

I denied him as a merc for this match for those reasons. I made it VERY CLEAR to you and him that he would not be allowed to play. And what happened? I get bombarded with Steam messages about my idiocy, unfairness, heaped with direct and personal insults, while my team is involved in a scrim. I decide to log off to stop the barrage and concentrate on the scrim. In between rounds, I decide to check up on your match. Lo and behold, Tap is about to merc for your team. Apparently, you decided not to mention my decision on his eligibility to play to any of our referees (Pelargir and Unique) and tried to sneak him into the match.

Your messages to me after the match were dripping with sarcasm about sportsmanship and fairness, but let's really take a look at what happened. Your team failed to show up with an appropriate number of players and when a merc was denied by me, the League Admin, you fail to notify the referees on hand and just blame confusion that they are allowed? Is it sportsmanlike to fail to procure a team or to try to circumvent a ruling and rules?

Not only that, after speaking with a member of your team, you even failed to notify your own teammates of what happened before the match and that my final ruling was to have it rescheduled and replayed. You and I had direct messages through Steam minutes after Perfect Peckers left the server, but your team still messaged me with complaints hours after the fact.

Let's be fair and share the entirety of events and not just share the parts where it looks like I caused some harm and hardship towards your team.


TL:DR Aphex couldn't field a team in within an appropriate time frame. Still gets to reschedule the match.

kmg

12(a) Teams may dispute a match result after the conclusion of the match by contacting an admin before reporting match results.

tbh if you want people to respect your position you need to utilize the dispute mechanism built into the rules of the league instead of slinging shit in as public a forum as possible. the whole thing comes off as disingenuous given that context. it makes me think you guys didn't read the rules or that you hope to manipulate opinion in your favor. this kind of action outside the mechanics of the league should only be resorted to after a complete failure of the rules and administrators, which is obviously not the case here.

also, if i couldn't field six i would take the forfeit. playing 5v6 is bad form. nobody should ever do it. that should be the rule as far as i'm concerned.

Vaticide

Kaneh wrote: »

Having to use a merc is unprofessional and unsportsmanlike to begin with.

Define: Unprofessional - below or contrary to the standards expected in a particular profession.
NS2 is not a profession. I and no other NS2 player make enough money to support themselves by playing NS2. Playing NS2 is a hobby. That aside, it is in the rules that using a merc is allowed.

Define: Unsportsmanlike - not fair, generous, or sportsmanlike.
Within the rules it is stated that using a merc is allowed, making using a merc completely fair, generous and sportsmanlike.

Locklear

Pretty sad to try and spin the story and not really give all the details here Tag.

Kaneh

Vaticide wrote: »

Kaneh wrote: »

Having to use a merc is unprofessional and unsportsmanlike to begin with.

Define: Unprofessional - below or contrary to the standards expected in a particular profession.
NS2 is not a profession. I and no other NS2 player make enough money to support themselves by playing NS2. Playing NS2 is a hobby. That aside, it is in the rules that using a merc is allowed.

Define: Unsportsmanlike - not fair, generous, or sportsmanlike.
I fail to see how using a merc is not fair, generous or sportsmanlike considering that it is stated within the rules that using a merc is allowed.

you know that tagwolf brought this shit up right? that he's calling Perfect peckers unprofessional and unsportsmanlike. but if you want to argue semantics, I'll bite.

The core of the argument is that its below or contrary to the standards expected. As tagwolf wants to use the term 'professional' I'm simply using the same wording. Either way, not having your team of 6 ready at the time specified is clearly below the standards expected.

The same argument applies to sportsmanship. You're expected to have your team of 6 ready. If you don't, its not fair to the other team. Using stand-ins isn't fair because of the entire concept of having a "team."

The other team had 6 people from their team ready at the time specified. You did not. That isn't fair or up to standards, hence unprofessional and unsportsmanlike.


ModEdit: "Shiiiiiiieeet" -Sharp

Zefram

About that rule about playing 6v5, that's in the old rules that the league does not use anymore since I drafted a new set of rules that was up for community debate before the season started. Playing 6v5 would be sheer idiocy and waste of time.

Decoy

This thread is silly. I'm closing it.

@Tagwolf, please stop trying to cause drama. You already opened a thread in the appropriate place and talked with the League Admin who explained his actions and why. This is unnecessary and I'm tired of seeing your witch hunts.

Zefram

I'm also a forum mod. I didn't ask for this thread to be closed and it will remain open on the NSL forums.