badges or not: some people like always like commanding more than others. i'd say people who find commanding engaging don't need that much artificial encouragement or even force, save for a little push to try it out in the first place.
the only way to get people commanding in the long run is to make it as fun as possible. otherwise, some people will go a distance to get the badge and then stop to command as frequently.
do i mind? no. imo the actual point of the com badge is not about good commanding, it's about teaching players the games mechanics: how much res a structure is worth, what order they should probably be built in and so on.
this stuff is obviously mandatory to know for any decent commander, but it also helps on the field in order to make good tactical suggestions and decisions.
still, a distinction between marine and alien would be nice.
i also find those similar badges confusing that result from trading cards.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
As anyone who knows me and gaming can vouch, I am not a comm, even alien comm is too much for my brain to take in... but I still go Alien comm every now and again in the SCC map tests, this means at some point I am likely to earn this badge, but I can guarantee you this, you would never want me to comm in a normal pub game, I'd get ejected in about 30 seconds..
Maybe at the end of the round you get a multiple choice question:
Rate your commander:
1. He was great!
2. I don't know.
3. He was as useful as a waterproof towel.
:P
It's too bad about 95% of people are terrible at judging commanders and couldn't tell actually good commanding from someone being carried if their life depended on it.
Unfortunate if you have it so. I don't usually find the majority disagreeing with my doings whether or not we win. Then again, I usually make it very, very, very clear to my team WHY we lost.
Irregardless, it's the same amount of clueless players for everyone. It might still work.
Maybe at the end of the round you get a multiple choice question:
Rate your commander:
1. He was great!
2. I don't know.
3. He was as useful as a waterproof towel.
:P
It's too bad about 95% of people are terrible at judging commanders and couldn't tell actually good commanding from someone being carried if their life depended on it.
Unfortunate if you have it so. I don't usually find the majority disagreeing with my doings whether or not we win. Then again, I usually make it very, very, very clear to my team WHY we lost.
Irregardless, it's the same amount of clueless players for everyone. It might still work.
I was talking more about the other side of the coin. People thinking a comm did extremely well because their team crushed the other team when it really was just an awful stack. And I wasn't really talking about myself, but yeah. I've very seldom had problems with people blaming my commanding, and the few times it happened, I made sure to insult them accordingly because I'M A GOD.
Sorry, got a bit carried away there. Also, irregardless is not a word.
While I agree that it is a horrendous word and I cannot understand how people manage to incorporate such a useless word into their vocabulary, I am compelled to post this :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
Irregardless means the same as regardless, but the negative prefix ir- merely duplicates the suffix -less, and is unnecessary. The word dates back to the 19th century, but is regarded as incorrect in standard English.
Irregardless means the same as regardless, but the negative prefix ir- merely duplicates the suffix -less, and is unnecessary. The word dates back to the 19th century, but is irregarded as incorrect in standard English.
Having the badge is sometimes annoying b/c everyone is either pissed b/c of the "badge stack" or they want you to command since you have "experience".
It also irritating when the "pro" (you know the 10 hrs of play time guy) on your team wants to backseat command (not to be confused with field commanding), b/c you are terrible at it since you didn't rush [insert whatever text] or med spam him.
The worse that can happen is bad games after bad games. But nothing force people to stay if it is too bad. The game are as good as the bond between players. All i'm thinking about is strengthen the bonds between teammates.
I strongly disagree, bad games after bad make people not want to play the game at all, and possibly for the future of said player.
So basically we should wait in the RR or fighting like pre-game mod for hours ? I've been in that situation. If you push that logic to the end; let's have a counter strike in space... With Christmas tree looking scoreboard.
You're proposal is just sticking a level-tag on them. Ask yourself what does it inspire in the other players mind which can command or are wiling to try but feels a little shy. They won't. I see it happening all the time as crowded servers have always guys with badges.
It will never produce more commanders. This game relies on commanding players. More commanders means more rest for vet commanders. Especially on public server...
I see a difference between bad games and get bored waiting for a commander to literally sacrifice. At least ppl play the game and not the pre-game stuff (when available).
Enough is enough. This game needs more commanders. It's not because some 'elite' players can command that they should do it all the time. Every player starts from step 1, commanders too. More badges won't change it.
I'm proposing the notion of encouragement and motivation with rewards to boot, while you're is fight or flight. Need I remind you this is a video game, no one should be forced to do anything they are not comfortable with.
A video game with rules. If dev change the rules as it happened we will play differently. Rules can be changed.
And let me laugh about it. Commanders were forced to play with "hardcoded" key bindings for more than a year... The commander config tab isn't that old. And don't get me started with key-bindings... mouse-wheel, primary /secondary key... stuff like that.
To add to my previous post statements : Whatever the leveling you invent, the 'stats' issue comes in. Some people won't get in the chair on a public server just to make sure the stats won't change and preserve the holy golden badge (As it is based on NS2stats logs). You would say "it can decay in time". So why bother getting the badge in the first place as it will ultimately go back to bronze ? This 3 level badge won't go anywhere.
What you're proposing basically not gonna solve the OP issue. Commanders wants to play on the field too. I'm tired to jump in while i do equal or make better scores than my teammates.
After 2 games at commanding we (the commanders) like to get out to breath a little fresh air flavored with some dead skulk smell. After all I'm not forced to command all the time and the badge rewards are just the least of my concerns.
And we're back to the OP issue. Who wants to command ?
Since this is an rts/fps hybrid, some people play purely for the fps scene. To throw them into the rts aspect just because they were part of a raffle isn't a good idea.
I think the implementation with the round auto starting is fine. Individuals who are willing to learn and are new are more likely to jump in when the game starts if no one has taken over. And the team is more likely to be lenient if they see that.
Here's an sc2 analogy..if you were forced to random race all the time, when you played multiplayer games. Or in cs:go, you always randomized starting weapon. Just doesnt sound consistent or fun.
It's already annoying when you get forced random onto a team you didn't want to play on.
So basically we should wait in the RR or fighting like pre-game mod for hours ? I've been in that situation. If you push that logic to the end; let's have a counter strike in space... With Christmas tree looking scoreboard.
No, it stands to reason that if the game isn't moving that you'd simply join another server, or like some Shine servers, the game starts without a commander thus putting a time pressure to get a comm or lose horribly. It's already like this and I don't see how adding a small graphic beside ones name affects this grand issue, this is an issue for the game itself to fix, if even.
It will never produce more commanders. This game relies on commanding players. More commanders means more rest for vet commanders. Especially on public server...
I never said it will or won't produce more commanders, if anything it might help existing commanders get some hours of experience behind them. Or at least have their experience properly represented by which side they're proficient in. This is mostly about setting expectations.
Perhaps this suggestion isn't going to solve the OP's issue and it certaintly won't balance a good player versus a poor player because those two things can't be balanced, if anything it sould intice a poor player to become a better player. It was just an idea because the topic was related, jeez.
I disagree on rookie friendly servers people are willing to let the new guys com as long as they have decent understanding of the game, and say," Hey, I am new and not great at this can you guys help me learn?"
However, most of the older players will not tolerate people who don't talk, listen, not having a mic [unless they "know" you] or someone acting like a jerk.
New coms just need to communicate their desire to learn to com and maybe watch some tutorials.
While I agree that it is a horrendous word and I cannot understand how people manage to incorporate such a useless word into their vocabulary, I am compelled to post this :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I think it is important to remember that playing an RTS well (ie, not winning by just getting more troops and resources and overpowering the enemy), is something a small percentage of gamers can do. Running around shooting things is something a higher percentage of gamers can do, so you are always going to have less players with the potential skill to command than shoot anyway.
With the commander role not always being an enjoyable experience, there are a lot of people with the ability that don't want to command. All in all you end up with a game that has a vital role that a small percentage of the playerbase can do. This is always going to lead to problems.
Ultimately, for NS games to reach a bigger audience, they need to make further sacrifices to the shooter. Arguably, the Alien Commander role has actually made the game more inaccessible, because it requires 2 people willing to do the RTS part every round, rather than the 1.
In-game, I meant. Can't expect players buying a game with a humble bundle to all search YouTube channels to play the game competently. But tutorials seem to have been waived off as impossible... lots of stuff the devs never came around to, good luck ns2 community, you have some work ahead of you.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Yeah I was talking about that to some CDT members. An interactive commander tutorial would be great but not only that, things like Skulk maneuvering, Marine target tracking trials are all on the wishlist. It would take a lot of work to get these built, or technically anyone could help make these. Most of the things I've seen in the pipeline are fixing bugs that absolutely need to be fixed.
Yeah I was talking about that to some CDT members. An interactive commander tutorial would be great but not only that, things like Skulk maneuvering, Marine target tracking trials are all on the wishlist. It would take a lot of work to get these built, or technically anyone could help make these. Most of the things I've seen in the pipeline are fixing bugs that absolutely need to be fixed.
=> NS3
It's amazing what you can produce if you don't have to build your engine first.
Yeah I was talking about that to some CDT members. An interactive commander tutorial would be great but not only that, things like Skulk maneuvering, Marine target tracking trials are all on the wishlist. It would take a lot of work to get these built, or technically anyone could help make these. Most of the things I've seen in the pipeline are fixing bugs that absolutely need to be fixed.
Lol wasn't blaming any of you guys... and it would be difficult to accomplish when you all have some sort of life. Tutorials would have helped ns2 a lot.
Arguably, the Alien Commander role has actually made the game more inaccessible, because it requires 2 people willing to do the RTS part every round, rather than the 1.
while this depends on the point of view, personally i think that alien commanding is less stressfull and people are more forgiving which means that it might be an easier starting point to get into ns2 commanding.
i wonder, what about the steam guides? they have the advantage that you can watch/read them during mapchange or while waiting for a match to start.
Lol wasn't blaming any of you guys... and it would be difficult to accomplish when you all have some sort of life. Tutorials would have helped ns2 a lot.
Anyway... off tutorials derail.
I wasn't taking that as a blame or anything ;P Simply stating the intimidate focus, so as to have peoples expectations set. In fact just last night some of the CDT were creating a wishlist of things they would need to possibly look into making more robust tutorials or any cool scripted events. It's a small step, but once again, their focus is on 266.
while this depends on the point of view, personally i think that alien commanding is less stressfull and people are more forgiving which means that it might be an easier starting point to get into ns2 commanding.
i wonder, what about the steam guides? they have the advantage that you can watch/read them during mapchange or while waiting for a match to start.
Totally agree, alien commanding is so much less stressful, not sure if that was intended or not, but if possible I'd like to see that balanced out, the experiences that is. I've posted everything I ever made onto the steam guides, it has it's following.
its probably because the original concept for the khamander was to be a "cosmic gardener" as charlie called, it so its an intentional asyemtry afaik. they brought the two roles a bit closer already, adding micro-abilities for the kham.
I think it is important to remember that playing an RTS well (ie, not winning by just getting more troops and resources and overpowering the enemy), is something a small percentage of gamers can do. Running around shooting things is something a higher percentage of gamers can do, so you are always going to have less players with the potential skill to command than shoot anyway.
Gotta disagree... I would consider MOBAs to be RTS games, and that shit is enormously popular. Not to mention that a lot of gamers who play dota2/LoL already do play FPS games like CS and... NS2!
Ultimately, for NS games to reach a bigger audience, they need to make further sacrifices to the shooter. Arguably, the Alien Commander role has actually made the game more inaccessible, because it requires 2 people willing to do the RTS part every round, rather than the 1.
I also 100% disagree here... I really don't think that's what ns2 needs or has ever needed to attract more players. And I would also disagree w/ this which was said earlier in a different thread
if you're making a list of the top reasons people do not play NS2 number one is obviously performance. number two is probably learning curve, but right up near it, and possibly tied with a few other things, is no first person spec.
IMHO, the learning curve is 100% the thing which turns your normal FPS-hound off, as well as the meta game. It's tough (At first) to be checking your map every 2 seconds, to remember to keep LOS of your buddies, checking above and behind you, buying welders, etc. For us vets, these things have become 2nd nature. But to the impatient generation of fragging and respawning until x amount of kills/rounds have been done, the meta-game is something I think a lot of people who wanna shoot stuff are going to ignore.
Recently I gave a co-worker an extra copy of ns2 I had. He's very into the arma series as well battlefield and has had a lot of experience w/ other FPS games. However I played about 40 minutes w/ him the first night, and even as a marine (not having to adjust to melee in FPS as alien yet), he told me twice that evening that it was the HARDEST game he'd ever played, then repeated it to me when I saw him at work the next day. Needless to say, he has not logged any more time in NS2 since.
That said, I dont think the game needs to be simplified in any way. It is what it is, and I think that's what keeps the player base down primarily, w/ several aforementioned reasons behind it. It's tough! But making it any more simple, and I think stomps will occur more, and enjoyment of commanding will be even further diminished. I don't know what would draw more people to ns2 other than learning to play it. It's tough to implant knowledge and patience into simple people, and simple people I think will continue to tend to avoid ns2. We know it's not for a lack of sales or people owning the game that people do not play.
On a side note, I think alien commanding is MUCH more fun and reminds me more of my AoE/AoM days in terms of RTS enjoyment.
Comments
the only way to get people commanding in the long run is to make it as fun as possible. otherwise, some people will go a distance to get the badge and then stop to command as frequently.
do i mind? no. imo the actual point of the com badge is not about good commanding, it's about teaching players the games mechanics: how much res a structure is worth, what order they should probably be built in and so on.
this stuff is obviously mandatory to know for any decent commander, but it also helps on the field in order to make good tactical suggestions and decisions.
still, a distinction between marine and alien would be nice.
i also find those similar badges confusing that result from trading cards.
In NS1 you could withhold weapons (NO SHOTTY FOR YOU!).
We need a Dictator-mod!
Slay marines who walk off path!
"But I carried a shotgun!"
"Don't care" *slays again*
I remember the Slap function from admin mods on goldsrc and source. We don't need something else to make comm griefing easier...
EDIT- Sorry, double post, was meant to edit this into my previous post...
Unfortunate if you have it so. I don't usually find the majority disagreeing with my doings whether or not we win. Then again, I usually make it very, very, very clear to my team WHY we lost.
Irregardless, it's the same amount of clueless players for everyone. It might still work.
Sorry, got a bit carried away there. Also, irregardless is not a word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/irregardless
FTFY !
It also irritating when the "pro" (you know the 10 hrs of play time guy) on your team wants to backseat command (not to be confused with field commanding), b/c you are terrible at it since you didn't rush [insert whatever text] or med spam him.
Sometimes I just want to click on aliens...
And then I do.
You're proposal is just sticking a level-tag on them. Ask yourself what does it inspire in the other players mind which can command or are wiling to try but feels a little shy. They won't. I see it happening all the time as crowded servers have always guys with badges.
It will never produce more commanders. This game relies on commanding players. More commanders means more rest for vet commanders. Especially on public server...
I see a difference between bad games and get bored waiting for a commander to literally sacrifice. At least ppl play the game and not the pre-game stuff (when available).
Enough is enough. This game needs more commanders. It's not because some 'elite' players can command that they should do it all the time. Every player starts from step 1, commanders too. More badges won't change it.
Selection pool rules can be applied depending on hours played, or any other criteria. Not really difficult.
A video game with rules. If dev change the rules as it happened we will play differently. Rules can be changed.
And let me laugh about it. Commanders were forced to play with "hardcoded" key bindings for more than a year... The commander config tab isn't that old. And don't get me started with key-bindings... mouse-wheel, primary /secondary key... stuff like that.
To add to my previous post statements : Whatever the leveling you invent, the 'stats' issue comes in. Some people won't get in the chair on a public server just to make sure the stats won't change and preserve the holy golden badge (As it is based on NS2stats logs). You would say "it can decay in time". So why bother getting the badge in the first place as it will ultimately go back to bronze ? This 3 level badge won't go anywhere.
What you're proposing basically not gonna solve the OP issue. Commanders wants to play on the field too. I'm tired to jump in while i do equal or make better scores than my teammates.
After 2 games at commanding we (the commanders) like to get out to breath a little fresh air flavored with some dead skulk smell. After all I'm not forced to command all the time and the badge rewards are just the least of my concerns.
And we're back to the OP issue. Who wants to command ?
I think the implementation with the round auto starting is fine. Individuals who are willing to learn and are new are more likely to jump in when the game starts if no one has taken over. And the team is more likely to be lenient if they see that.
Here's an sc2 analogy..if you were forced to random race all the time, when you played multiplayer games. Or in cs:go, you always randomized starting weapon. Just doesnt sound consistent or fun.
It's already annoying when you get forced random onto a team you didn't want to play on.
No, it stands to reason that if the game isn't moving that you'd simply join another server, or like some Shine servers, the game starts without a commander thus putting a time pressure to get a comm or lose horribly. It's already like this and I don't see how adding a small graphic beside ones name affects this grand issue, this is an issue for the game itself to fix, if even.
I never said it will or won't produce more commanders, if anything it might help existing commanders get some hours of experience behind them. Or at least have their experience properly represented by which side they're proficient in. This is mostly about setting expectations.
Perhaps this suggestion isn't going to solve the OP's issue and it certaintly won't balance a good player versus a poor player because those two things can't be balanced, if anything it sould intice a poor player to become a better player. It was just an idea because the topic was related, jeez.
and I agree with KungFuJV's comment above.
B/c I am terribad
I disagree on rookie friendly servers people are willing to let the new guys com as long as they have decent understanding of the game, and say," Hey, I am new and not great at this can you guys help me learn?"
However, most of the older players will not tolerate people who don't talk, listen, not having a mic [unless they "know" you] or someone acting like a jerk.
New coms just need to communicate their desire to learn to com and maybe watch some tutorials.
And I am compelled to post this:
With the commander role not always being an enjoyable experience, there are a lot of people with the ability that don't want to command. All in all you end up with a game that has a vital role that a small percentage of the playerbase can do. This is always going to lead to problems.
Ultimately, for NS games to reach a bigger audience, they need to make further sacrifices to the shooter. Arguably, the Alien Commander role has actually made the game more inaccessible, because it requires 2 people willing to do the RTS part every round, rather than the 1.
Near the bottom, plenty of topics on marine commanding, being that it's harder than Khammanding (IMHO), and yes I will eventually get to Khammanding
=> NS3
It's amazing what you can produce if you don't have to build your engine first.
Lol wasn't blaming any of you guys... and it would be difficult to accomplish when you all have some sort of life. Tutorials would have helped ns2 a lot.
Anyway... off tutorials derail.
i wonder, what about the steam guides? they have the advantage that you can watch/read them during mapchange or while waiting for a match to start.
I wasn't taking that as a blame or anything ;P Simply stating the intimidate focus, so as to have peoples expectations set. In fact just last night some of the CDT were creating a wishlist of things they would need to possibly look into making more robust tutorials or any cool scripted events. It's a small step, but once again, their focus is on 266.
Totally agree, alien commanding is so much less stressful, not sure if that was intended or not, but if possible I'd like to see that balanced out, the experiences that is. I've posted everything I ever made onto the steam guides, it has it's following.
Gotta disagree... I would consider MOBAs to be RTS games, and that shit is enormously popular. Not to mention that a lot of gamers who play dota2/LoL already do play FPS games like CS and... NS2!
I also 100% disagree here... I really don't think that's what ns2 needs or has ever needed to attract more players. And I would also disagree w/ this which was said earlier in a different thread IMHO, the learning curve is 100% the thing which turns your normal FPS-hound off, as well as the meta game. It's tough (At first) to be checking your map every 2 seconds, to remember to keep LOS of your buddies, checking above and behind you, buying welders, etc. For us vets, these things have become 2nd nature. But to the impatient generation of fragging and respawning until x amount of kills/rounds have been done, the meta-game is something I think a lot of people who wanna shoot stuff are going to ignore.
Recently I gave a co-worker an extra copy of ns2 I had. He's very into the arma series as well battlefield and has had a lot of experience w/ other FPS games. However I played about 40 minutes w/ him the first night, and even as a marine (not having to adjust to melee in FPS as alien yet), he told me twice that evening that it was the HARDEST game he'd ever played, then repeated it to me when I saw him at work the next day. Needless to say, he has not logged any more time in NS2 since.
That said, I dont think the game needs to be simplified in any way. It is what it is, and I think that's what keeps the player base down primarily, w/ several aforementioned reasons behind it. It's tough! But making it any more simple, and I think stomps will occur more, and enjoyment of commanding will be even further diminished. I don't know what would draw more people to ns2 other than learning to play it. It's tough to implant knowledge and patience into simple people, and simple people I think will continue to tend to avoid ns2. We know it's not for a lack of sales or people owning the game that people do not play.
On a side note, I think alien commanding is MUCH more fun and reminds me more of my AoE/AoM days in terms of RTS enjoyment.