Tell me about the 'good old days'

meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Hi guys. MeatMachine here.

All around the forum I see vets praising the days of NS1 and referencing gameplay elements & mechanics that just sound awesome and interesting.
If one were to only pay attention to this kind of comment it would be hard not to justify reintroducing all these mechanics/ making a mod that fits them in with NS2.

Some of the mechanics I love the sound of, like the way in which a single resflow is used for each team having a different 'social structure' rather than having pres/tres and 2 comms; heavy armour and the HMG sound like much more fitting gameplay elements than exosuits, as do the alien upgrade paths (the echoes of this unfortunately lost with the biomass system).

I love this game and always have- unfortunately for me back in 'the day' my PC sucked ass so I only ever got to play a little bit of NS1 round a friends house before it died. I know NS2 classic mod existed, but the graphics were just kinda painful. If a mod existed that was essentially NS2 classic with NS2 graphics/ models etc, I'd definitely play it.

But was it all REALLY peaches and cream? As awesome as it sounds, I find it hard to believe it was without its own issues and I have a level of trust that presumes the developers would have made all these changes for the better.

This might be opening a can of worms, but I'd love to hear about what was wrong with NS1, to really give some perspective on why certain changes were made and achieve a deeper level of understanding of the game.
Aliens not spending res on hives, comms not dropping weapons?

Please, sell NS2 back to me.
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Comments

  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Two things I disliked:

    I crashed whenever I used the Fade ability to "fly", 2nd attack? Don't even remember the name :P So I just played Lerk and Onos a lot.

    At the end of ns1, only the unfriendly and insulting players were left -> bye bye ns1

    Everything else was perfect and made me play it longer then any other game in 22 years.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I don't think that was done to show the engine, palagi. iirc it was done to clearly distinguish territorial lines. (Didn't the first infestation prototype vid mention this too?)
    Which is a good design goal to have, communicating clearly with the players on the ground.

    IMO, it would have been a useful and benign mechanic if it was automatic and purely thematic, as originally shown.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    NotPaLaGi wrote: »

    A fast moving, twitch shooting multiplayer e-sport this game is not, not ever on this engine sadly. Sorry to digress.

    Actually I think it could be with some tweaks to the engine and netcode. And you know what? We have a group of highly talented and dedicated people working on just these things.
  • MelancorMelancor Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24415Members
    Imagine a time when the best games availabe were Starcraft, Counterstrike (ok, Diablo2 too). At such a time, Natural Selection basically blasted everything else away, because it simply offered so much more by trying to combine SC and CS.

    Remember that most computer games that you may be referring to today, were created AFTER this time.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I honestly cant think of anything I found wrong in NS1 that is not also wrong in NS2.

    The learning curve is the big one. Lets face it, without an extensive ammount of time being put in to campaign-esq training mission, its always gonna be hard (props to the one creating guides to alleviate this problem a bit)



    MAYBE somethins bad from NS1:

    The unlimited fields of turrets with electrified factories? (pplayed a round on ecplise with a turret farm from marine start to maint hive )

    That last gorge who wasted everyones time by putting a gorgefort in a vent once the game was over and making the marines track him down (I put this as a maybe since the gorge MIGHT be able to get a hive dropped :p)

    Marines relocating to a double res, then getting surrounded-creating a never ending turtle due to RFK for marines (they never ran out of money)
    **p.s. RFK worked out well as a positive reinforcement of not dying on aliens >.>
  • NessNess Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10935Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited July 2014
    NotPaLaGi wrote: »
    A fast moving, twitch shooting multiplayer e-sport this game is not, not ever on this engine sadly. Sorry to digress.

    I agree with a few of these points but not this entire line. NS1 existed in a very different time for online gaming. Most of the offerings were twitch shooters or RTS games. These days I am hard pressed to even think of many games that still offer that type of gameplay. TF2 and CS:GO? And they are pretty slow compared to Tribes, Quake, UT, etc. Maybe you could include Battlefield 4 and CoD but those aren't really twitch at all. I come back to NS2 time and time again because it is one of the very few games that still carry some of the elements of twitchy, arena-style games. I have no problem with gaming today but you only need to pop into any TF2 server to see that even in FPS games the new gaming generation is more about sandbox-style fun than constant arena combat (which I prefer). You'd never see a conga line in UT2K4 ;). I will agree that I wouldn't play or watch NS2 as an e-sport but that is just because the design and balance just doesn't seem to back it up. There's a reason only world-class design teams seem to make the really successful e-sports that create tournaments with hundreds of thousands in the prize pool. It takes tons of time, money and a team big enough to handle all of the hurdles of properly maintaining competitions while constantly evolving the meta-game to keep things balanced and interesting. The bar is set extremely high these days due to games like Dota 2. I really enjoy NS2 and will play it as long as there is a playerbase worth playing with but I can't see it keeping up with that high bar of quality.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    But was it all REALLY peaches and cream? As awesome as it sounds, I find it hard to believe it was without its own issues and I have a level of trust that presumes the developers would have made all these changes for the better.

    NS2 is better for the most part. Some differences with NS1:

    1) In NS1, the main battle was preventing aliens from finishing the second hive (and getting significantly boosted abilities once it did like leap and bilebomb). The 3rd hive was pretty much a game ender for marines. Xeno, webs, charge, etc... went up with the third hive.

    2) No alien commander. The skill of the gorges could make or break a game. They were responsible for dropping the upgrade chambers and hives. Many hero gorges perished spitting the building second hive so the team can transport over to defend it. Other aliens could also use the +use key to activate the transport. Aliens used movement chambers, or another hive itself to transport over when the building hive was under attack. Gorge tunnels in NS2 are a more intuitive mechanic than what NS1 did, although.

    3) NS2 actually has an alien commander. After countless games of NS1, it was a bit tiring to play too many games where everybody is silent and not taking charge of leading the team. The alien comm formalized that leadership role. I think it adds a good amount of depth to the game, and more of the RTS element to the alien side that was previously the domain of just the marines in NS1.

    4) Skulk movement is lot better and more intuitive than the old bunnyhopping in NS1. It achieves essentially the same effect, but is much easier to learn.

    5) Fades were the dominant force on the alien team, and often the linchpin of alien victory. Games were won or lost on the death of a fade, especially one that could get kills. NS2 is much more forgiving in this regard. Fades don't have metabolize and focus anymore, so they're significantly weaker than the NS1 fade. Vortex and stab are of minimal usefulness.

    6) Heavies were more useful in NS1 since they were basically still a marine with lots of armor. Heavy trains could just weld each other in combat, making them more self sufficient. Exo's in the their current state in NS2 are a liability, and need rebalanced/reworked again. In NS1 I always felt that either tech path (JP or heavy train) were viable. I don't feel that way in NS2 when JPs have a much higher probability of being useful than Exos.

    7) Onos got stomp with the second hive IIRC, which made them the perfect counter to heavy trains. Devour was fun to use on heavies or random single marines around the map, but not fun for the marines stuck in the belly. Exo's are really a counter to anything due to their weakness and reliance on others to weld.




  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited July 2014
    dePARA wrote: »
    25 years ago the berlin wall went down. There was a reason that the east germans demonstrate each friday.
    But we have still people here in germany who thinks: "The GDR wasn't such a bad thing after all."

    It seems people tend to forget the annyoing things after a while.
    NS1 was a good game for sure but it was not the Ubergame some people mentioned here in the forum in many threads.
    I totally disagree with this. It is so much out of the reality and makes people look like idiots.


    ONE thing that is horrendous in NS1:
    Some part of the weapon pickup system. But it sill is better than the NS2 one.
    The bad thing is that if you are with your rifle and there is a shotgun on the floor and you walk on it, you pick it up automatically.
    When you are in a fight and you pick up an empty shotgun, it is quite... infuriating.


    Apart from this one, I really don't see anything yet.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I do believe ns1 was superior in certain aspects, but not all. (note below is not pure fact but OPINION)

    * I found the very asymetric system of aliens having no commander much superior then having a commander in ns2. However, rookies had a harder time to pick up how to be useful, and it wasnt always clear who was 'field commanding'. From my memory, often the gorge.
    * I found the build everywhere, anywhere both sides had a option I heavily lack in ns2. A source of pure frustration and utmost joy. Anyone remember redroom? It also promoted more teamplay as marines needed each other early on to reach vents, and a gorge needed skulks to reach the same location often.
    * Heavy armour seemed far superior to exo in terms of usability. Cheaper, could phasegate, could weld, could basicly do anything but fly.
    * I loved that structures were integrated in ns1. You didnt have a crag and a shell. It was the same bloody thing.
    * Elevators, water etc.

    * Ns2 however has always nice things. Balance & features? Remember ns1 went up to.. version 3? 3.1? Something along those lines, before they finally got the big problems out in terms of balance.
    * Blink? buggy joke in many cases in ns1.
    * ns1 was slower! Much of it. (and 3.0 was pretty balanced in pub). I had matches where you could play for 4hours in the same match. People would leave, later rejoin after a few hours and be in the same match. May sound fun, and it was, but the time investment for it was complete nuts. RTs did not repay themselves for what, a full minute minimum? Resticks where slow.
    * No teamscaling in ns1, in terms of res. Your RTs produced x res in total which got split into the entire team. Had more players? Live with it, your lifeforms would be delayed.
    * resource for kills. Aka 'make the good player even more OP, for when you finally kill him/her the player can refade'.


    I am also convinced more bad bad stuff is in ns1, but its been over 10 years.. so forgive me for not remembering.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    ow yeh the marine only for weapons part.. Was great.
    It gave much more flow and power.. but yes, could be abused.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @meatmachine‌
    my recollection is hazy now, but these are the things I remember (that I didn't like compared to NS2)

    -electrified building were OP. After you electrified a building, no skulk can actually harass. This make taking down res mid game impossible without bile.
    -building any building anywhere without power was OP - if you think an armory block was bad, imagine a CC block (though the CC design was better in NS1 - shaped like a cockpit and not a box).
    -No alien commander, so you NEED gorges who will drop structures and the hive The res model worked like this: each rt will give you x res per tick, this is added per tick and distributed to all alien players with gorge players getting 4 times as much. So people that went gorge early would get up the res for a hive quickly to drop it or other structures. If they didn't do that, because they are greedy and wanted to go fade early it can really hurt the progress of the alien tech. This needed more coordination and sacrifice compared to NS2, where the commander can make that choice. Some will like it, but I didn't like the NS1 model as you could be playing for a long time and can not possibly get a hive up because people go gorge, leech the res then fade. Leaving your team with no upgrade structures or hive. -hive upgrade is also determined by the first upgrade structure the gorge drops (defense chamber - crag, movement chamber - shift or sensory chamber - shade). In some of the games I played, someone would troll aliens and drop a sensory chamber then f4 and go marines (sensory was like shade, not impossible to play, but hard in pubs).

    -Marine side
    -marine commander drops weapons, so it both good and bad: On the good side, you can get the weapons composition you want as a commander, but on the bad side, if your squads don't work together, its really frustrating as its YOUR resources that just went down the drain (and you tend to favour the ones that are doing your bidding).
    -building CC anywhere gives marines a huge advantage as they can relocated to a dbl res node (nano on Veil), if you relo and it worked you get 2 res at base, if half your marines die on the way, you are screwed.
    -no power requirement means you can ninja stuff heaps easier, but aliens get instant teleport to hive under attack via movement chamber and hive

    All in all, it was a different game. And I wonder if people are really nostalgic about NS1, so they would like NS2 to be the same game. I don't think you can say NS2 would be better if it did what NS1 did (they are different games).
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    -electrified building were OP. After you electrified a building, no skulk can actually harass. This make taking down res mid game impossible without bile.

    I don't think OP is the right word (otherwise it would have been abused in comp play). It was certainly annoying in low skilled pub games, but certainly not OP. There were a billion different things you could better spend your res on that would be of far greater benefit than electrifying a res node. It's just like turret farms - sure they were annoying, but at the end of the day, a waste of res if you had a competant team. At the end of the day, res was always better spent on upgrades, weapons, proto, advanced armory.
    -building any building anywhere without power was OP - if you think an armory block was bad, imagine a CC block (though the CC design was better in NS1 - shaped like a cockpit and not a box).

    If anything, if you are against structure blocking, this is a point against ns2 rather than against ns1. In ns1, structure blocking was considered an exploit - a stigma that was sadly not carried over into ns2.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    Bacillus wrote: »
    I've been becoming more conscious about game designs for the last 10 years or so and I don't think I've still seen anything that quite rivals NS1 in how well the whole thing works together in some really weird, but elegant ways.

    Like the eggs spawning always on the same spot in always the same order?
    Really elegant way to egg lock an alien team by ONE marine.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    -electrified building were OP. After you electrified a building, no skulk can actually harass. This make taking down res mid game impossible without bile.

    I don't think OP is the right word (otherwise it would have been abused in comp play). It was certainly annoying in low skilled pub games, but certainly not OP. There were a billion different things you could better spend your res on that would be of far greater benefit than electrifying a res node. It's just like turret farms - sure they were annoying, but at the end of the day, a waste of res if you had a competant team. At the end of the day, res was always better spent on upgrades, weapons, proto, advanced armory.
    -building any building anywhere without power was OP - if you think an armory block was bad, imagine a CC block (though the CC design was better in NS1 - shaped like a cockpit and not a box).

    If anything, if you are against structure blocking, this is a point against ns2 rather than against ns1. In ns1, structure blocking was considered an exploit - a stigma that was sadly not carried over into ns2.

    @d0ped0g‌ , prob. true about the electric rt. I only play pub, and late game your skulks basically can't touch the rts to bring down marine res, as spare res can be spent in electrifying and totally stop the Kharaa's ability to res harass with low tier life forms. From memory too, you can build your pg or obs near an rt and have the electric rt zap skulks trying to grind it (and the pg is a platform, not a 1 way exit) - this may have changed in later builds where building had a minimum distance from each other.

    I actually don't like building blocking (NS1 or NS2), I think it gives an unfair advantage to marines.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Onos using ladders.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    edited July 2014
    Oh I agree it was definitely a terrible TERRIBLE feature. I guess you could say it was OP in the sense that there was barely anything you could do as lowly skulk trying to clear res on the map. At least with turret farms you could try and find a blind-spot on the TF (although good luck if the TF itself is electrified). Really, elect-res just served as a means to hamper turnarounds by denying a losing team the chance to make a dent on the marine economy. And using electric RTs or TFs to cover phase gates was god-damn annoying too.

    Thank you for perhaps being the only person to date to agree with me about structure walling. I voiced my opinion on this early on as it was being endorsed by casters more and more, but there was a fairly unanimous consensus on the forums that it should be considered 'legit'. The nail on the coffin was when Charlie himself endorsed it in Cologne. I don't think it's necessarily unfair (in ns2 at least), as there's definitely a tradeoff that takes place that you can (and likely will) be punished for.

    I just think that the gameplay element of shooting down an onos who can't get to you is fucking stupid - boring for both spectators and players (I can't think of a single thing that's exciting/interesting about it). Yet every time I have seen it happen in a stream, the casters cream their pants and never fail to harp on about the amazing tactical decision that just took place. Thank god it's barely relevant anymore, so it's very rare, but the first Cologne tourney when it was a big part of the metagame was just one gigantic structure-walling circle-jerk. I think the issue with early onos definitely forced the players' hands in that situation, but to hear it so heavily endorsed in the commentary was incredibly disheartening to someone like me who wanted it out of the game completely.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    edited July 2014
    ns1 had ugly graphics even when it was released. I remember playing it back in the day, i enjoyed it but i think a combination of the graphics and learning curve put me off, the specialists mod got most of my attention back then before steam had released and we had WON

    but some of the things i liked about ns1 thats absent from ns2

    side loaded rifles, just felt much better
    lifts and conveyors that moved gave a better aliens like atmosphere as you waited for the lift etc..
    doors seemed to play more of an important role.
    welding vents was atmospheric and useful
    EXO power armor was really cool and better than EXO ns2armor
    gorges built all the structures and could build them anywhere which added alot more replayability and strategies
  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    1 map, NS_Siege007. Case closed.
    pause it at 0.39 and see how many names you can spot still in ns2 ^^.
    It was NS2 but smoother, funner, faster and more dynamic in competitive. Wasn't that great though... :]
  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester
    Sieges maps. Yep... Worst thing in NS1. But it is not a vanilla mod happily.
    ns1 had ugly graphics even when it was released. I remember playing it back in the day, i enjoyed it but i think a combination of the graphics and learning curve put me off, the specialists mod got most of my attention back then before steam had released and we had WON
    Wait what? xD
    NS1 was surprisingly beautiful... even years after it was still great and with a unique atmosphere. You are the first person I see saying that it had ugly graphics especially when it was released.

    (I saw people saying that NS2 had ugly graphics even at release so... I have seen everything now)

  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The good old days are over! We are old now! :(
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @d0ped0g‌ I am surprised people endorse structure blocking so much in comp. I agree it can be a strategic part of the game, but as you say, how boring is it to have an onos out on the field, only to have it being blocked and can't utilize the power of that life form. In pubs this is less of a problem as the player counts kind of nullify its effect (especially when you might have 2 gorges in the team). Comp. games, everything is so tight, there usually isn't a gorge with the team, so structure blocking would kill the excitement of an onos being on the field. So I 100% agree with you, it is freakin' awesome taking down an onos. I wish they would put that in a promo vid, 4 marines shooting down an onos that crumple and slide to a stop just in front of the marines (would be epic).

    Oh, one more thing I missed from the good old days.. Even though Onos using ladders was bad, it did allow a more interesting map design. I missed the old mine shaft with the sewers. Over all, with ladders it allowed more gang ways and such and I feel the maps were generally more varied.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    Oh, one more thing I missed from the good old days.. Even though Onos using ladders was bad, it did allow a more interesting map design. I missed the old mine shaft with the sewers. Over all, with ladders it allowed more gang ways and such and I feel the maps were generally more varied.
    I think NS2's movement system forces a certain kind of map design. For example skulks need to be hugging walls or obstacles most of the time, which dictates a lot for the map design.

    In NS1 aliens were very vulnerable in open spaces, but they still had their main movement abilities available and could react to incoming threats quickly. The aliens were also very good at travelling through any aerial space they found. This allowed very varied room design and also made the rooms to play out in memorable ways.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Bacillus wrote: »
    Oh, one more thing I missed from the good old days.. Even though Onos using ladders was bad, it did allow a more interesting map design. I missed the old mine shaft with the sewers. Over all, with ladders it allowed more gang ways and such and I feel the maps were generally more varied.
    I think NS2's movement system forces a certain kind of map design. For example skulks need to be hugging walls or obstacles most of the time, which dictates a lot for the map design.

    In NS1 aliens were very vulnerable in open spaces, but they still had their main movement abilities available and could react to incoming threats quickly. The aliens were also very good at travelling through any aerial space they found. This allowed very varied room design and also made the rooms to play out in memorable ways.

    Map design is much more dictated by the fact that marines can shoot and aliens can't. You have to get the room size just right, make sure there's no overly long line of sights and put convenient cover everywhere, all without turning it alien favored.

    By comparison, all that you need to make a skulk able to wall jump is a wall. Most rooms have walls :D
    You're right, though, especially when it comes to detailing. But the underlying mechanics of the game dictate map design much more.
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited July 2014
    Some stuff i miss from NS1:

    * Clean maps and geometry. A good example of this would be Eclipse in NS1 and NS2. Also stuff hanging from the ceiling in nearly all NS2 maps pisses me off to no end.

    * Cluttered screen. NS1 screen/hud was lean and efficient, NS2 begins to be really cluttered. Also NS1 skulks were visible even if the model was smaller, and their top speed was way higher. With NS2 mainly brown background, NS2 mostly brown skulks arent that clear cut.

    * Marine comm is not bounded to res all the time. Remember the time when you see 2+ obs in NS1 marine bases? Yeah NS1 scans and beacon cost energy not res. Now if you have 2 RTs as comm you can do nothing.

    * Even if NS2 has less troll khamms than NS1 had troll gorges, I still find khamming boring.

    * FPS were consistent in NS1, or i don't recall having to actively avoid fights in late game due to terrible fps drops, like i do in NS2 ( and i have a beast PC ).

    * NS1 move sets were deeper than NS2. Wall jump? 1 week of practice top. NS1 bunny hop? you would still discover new stuff after 1 year.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    gorges did NOT get 4x the res in 3.0
    They did in 1.04 but it was scrapped in 2.0 last I remember. So after that you couldnt leech anymore.
  • zipy124zipy124 England Join Date: 2014-06-27 Member: 197004Members, NS2 Playtester
    Draconis wrote: »
    * FPS were consistent in NS1, or i don't recall having to actively avoid large fights in late game due to terrible fps drops late game, like i do in NS2 ( and i have a beast PC ).
    the fps late game issue is being worked on with some great improvements in the next patch I might add here.
    Draconis wrote: »
    * I still prefer Kham to having troll gorges in NS1, but khamming is mostly boring.
    Could not agree more, i don't avoid khamming because i'm bad at it like most, but mostly because it is boring
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