@IronHorse You can't bring up jetpacks and say my argument is totally irrelevant. Completely different role, they have the advantage of flexibility but not the advantage of pure killing power. The biggest elephant in the room regarding jetpacks vs Exo is the enormous dps difference (only comparing duals miniguns), giving them the boost commits the Onos more and allows a few precious milliseconds to possibly burst him down, the 1v1 duel is already very close even if the onos is in melee range already. I fully agree with your idea if it is balanced accordingly. I especially like it for railgun/single arm exos but in its current state, dual guns COULD be near uncounterable.
The only situation that you identify the booster being used in is 1v1, even moreso, an Onos only BARELY wins vs dual minigun if he fully commits AND gets into melee range very quickly. Allowing such quick repositioning not only throws the Onos offguard but more importantly, it also either forces him to commit his lifeform against the Exosuit or forces a retreat which he might die from anyway. Any decently skilled pub server/competitive environment makes playing Onos scary even against normal rifle/shotgun marines, let alone speedy Exosuits.
I'm not saying its a bad idea, it does show promise but not in its current state when its cooldown is very low. It may work for the current Exos but in combination with all the other buffs, you risk a unit that is both extremely powerful (high burst DPS, jetpacks lack dps relatively), very mobile and able to choose his engagements much more frequently with much more risk involved. He can push forward and boost backward as soon as he gets in trouble, maybe he picks off a lifeform or structure or gets solid damage into an Onos forcing a retreat.
Please prove my skepticism wrong, I want exosuits to be back and viable but I don't want them to be potentially OP.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2014
@RaZDaZ
That's a legitimate concern, dualies most definitely are able to kill faster. (15 seconds TTK Biomass 9 Onos)
But dualies move even slower than those speeds in the spreadsheet, and an A3 Dualie can be killed in 4.5 seconds by an Onos!
That's less than 1/3 of the time that it takes for a dualie to kill an Onos, so idk how you are witnessing Oni being barely able to kill them if they begin in melee range as you suggested.
A charging Onos is able to move at 11.5 speed, but really we have to assume the walk speed is in use of 7.5.. and even a dualie boosting for one second (6.5 speed) isn't going to outpace that walking Onos - then he returns to 4.7 speed.
Important to note that 1.5 more seconds from thruster usage makes killing the dualie take 6 seconds... which still isn't 15 seconds.
(And this is still w/o considering a typical scenario of healspray and umbra, which can make sustained firing dualies take upwards of 22 seconds)
No offense meant, (because I feel you have a very legitimate point and I am glad someone is bringing it up! ) but I feel like you might be overestimating what the thrusters can accomplish, while underestimating the "advantage of flexibility" that JPs have. That flexibility can often gaurantee invincibility against an Onos... So while Flexibility may = Invincibility against no one but Oni, I find it fair that a thruster Exo might live 1.5 seconds longer against an Onos, only. (since you previously mentioned the other lifeforms would be able to evade and close the gap, still).
This is especially fair for the Dualie, considering its recent nerf in DPS by overheating a gun faster when firing both guns, in order to facilitate a burst damage mechanic to avoid sustained fire melting structures and Hives etc.... a nerf that effected no lifeform, other than Oni.
The area I expected more discussion on was the impact it has on skulks considering it would take 6.5 seconds to kill them instead of 5, and even as a biomass 9 skulk you can die very quickly to any Exo that doesn't miss.
I wonder, if the Exo still deals heavy-type damage (1:1 damage:armor ratio against armor?), would you folks consider changing the damage type of miniguns to normal-type (1:2 damage to armor?) as a compromise to get the list that Ironhorse had posted added?
Of course, if i missed something and miniguns already deal normal damage, please ignore :P
That's less than 1/3 of the time that it takes for a dualie to kill an Onos, so idk how you are witnessing Oni being barely able to kill them if they begin in melee range as you suggested.
Because Onos have 0 splash and they tend to missfire on random MACs and Marines. Tis one of the most rage inducing things and Exos tend to have better positioning that getting ganked instantly.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I have an idea borrowed from Unreal Tournament for Exo Fist: allow Exos to charge its fist punch for increased damage when holding primary attack. That could increase the skill required for the weapon as well as the fun factor.
A typical scenario wouldn't be a lone duelie vs onos at immediate melee distance with umbra and heal spray, though.
We were having a hypothetical scenario / theorycrafting where it was 1 v 1 , and razdaz brought up immediate melee distance as adding to the scenario.
I see that scenario as being separate from what i consider to be the typical healspray / drifter support and maybe umbra experience, however.
I suppose i should have said "the intended scenario" to distinguish
That's less than 1/3 of the time that it takes for a dualie to kill an Onos, so idk how you are witnessing Oni being barely able to kill them if they begin in melee range as you suggested.
Because Onos have 0 splash and they tend to missfire on random MACs and Marines. Tis one of the most rage inducing things and Exos tend to have better positioning that getting ganked instantly.
0 splash? You mean splash damage? .. Because neither do hitscan bullets? ::confused face::
The next patch will have some nice MAC position changes that you might like, btw
Also, I agree that positioning is the reason why, but really that Onos should be doing the same thing.
We should also work on this topic migrating back towards some of the other topics, too btw..
Or maybe add to it: Does no one see issues with the already mobile team having multiple 1 minute Gorge Tunnels in public games, leading to early map control?
Yeah it was more to hypothesize the DPS potential of Exo. The possible balance concern I do have regarding the "any-direction" boost was more regarding teamplay and engagement commitment, exosuit punches all his DPS and while overheating he boosts backwards able to resume DPS and gain a tiny bit of breathing room, this might just be enough to finish off the Onos. Based on anecdotal evidence (not the best but better than nothing), if I engage a +3W/A dual mingun while attacking first with 6bio/cara (typical mid-end game scenario), I can be left with approximately 200-400 hp remaining by the time the Exo is dead. Even worse if he gets just 1 second of time on me which is potentially what this buff could provide, a situation in which an Onos should win an engagement could lose it.
But I digress away from the 1v1 lark. My main concern is an easier retreat path. In this situation, they can still force a fade/lerk/onos to commit further to the engagement which could greatly increase the risk for aliens, lifeforms already take a huge risk without significant team support especially for fades and lerks.
I concede my point to you though, it's a cool idea and I agree with it to some extent. I lack the sufficient knowledge, experience and most importantly, concrete evidence of firmly deciding my opinion/feedback. This is the reason why I put my opinion of your change, don't just throw it in, make sure its tested even in hypothetical scenarios rather than practical. You could even throw it on public to get a broader testing audience and revert or keep the change depending on its performance. Like I said, I want Exosuits back to being more than laughing stocks, I loved them before they got overhauled and were one of the biggest reasons as a relatively speaking "noob" that I stuck with NS2. Exosuits are just so cool in their design, they feel really powerful to play but in practice, not so much. When I play one now, I'm scared of even a basic skulk hiding on the ceiling.
They've got the ingredients that make them valid choices end-game, they just lack a bit of durability to solidify them as robust additions to a marine team. The removal of speed reduction when a railgun charges up would be fantastic and an amazing step in bringing them as counters to lower lifeforms.
Thanks for your argument @IronHorse, I appreciate your enthusiasm on the matter
Also, has anyone ever been in an Exo and not realised fast enough that you have a phantom lifeform hitting you especially when you fire your guns? Seems more difficult to tell if you're getting attacked by a silent lifeform in an Exo than a marine
0 splash? You mean splash damage? .. Because neither do hitscan bullets? ::confused face::
The next patch will have some nice MAC position changes that you might like, btw
Also, I agree that positioning is the reason why, but really that Onos should be doing the same thing.
Well, it might be true that Skulks can get in the way of bullets, but blowing up a Skulk removes a lot less DPS from an Exo than it does an Onos... and besides, there is that whole fire time thing.
I know and agree that Exos are in a bad place, but I'm just saying that they don't die that fast to Onos. Really, as an Exo, it is Skulks that I fear more of.
The current exo is the result of many releases balancing them. They are currently balanced by being nerfed into obscurity.
If you do anything to their speed/ damage/ armor then everything around it will need rebalancing again.
I think the only low impact way to improve them, without upsetting the game balance is to adjust their cost.
OR...
When your exo gets destroyed (assuming its researched), YOU EJECT AS A JETPACK MARINE! Can you imagine how awesome that would be!
So now you don't need to compare a 40 pres exo, to a 15 pres jetpack. You compare a 40 pres exo+jp, to a 15 pres jetpack.
It kind of makes sense from a roleplay perspective as well, when you take damage as an exo you take armor damage not health, so its not unreasonable to assume the marine inside is unharmed until the armor is breached, in addition the exo obviously includes jetpack technology.
When your exo gets destroyed (assuming its researched), YOU EJECT AS A JETPACK MARINE! Can you imagine how awesome that would be!
that suggestion sounds kinda strange... especially with jps not being researched! an ejector seat could be fun though. you could buy yourself a jp and and exo right after, which is pricey but basically works like your idea (if the ejector seat is viable enough for you not to die instantly by the attacking aliens).
Does no one see issues with the already mobile team having multiple 1 minute Gorge Tunnels in public games, leading to early map control?
i often play alien commander and i agree that tunnels are incredible useful. however, starting out with multiple tunnels doesn't seem ideal (in pubs at least): due to the increased number of gorges and the multiple positions you have to defend, marines have it much easier to take down the tunnels. i'd prefer at most 2 tunnels and have the rest of the team save their pres for higher life forms. for great early map control, one central tunnel often does the trick, too.
If an Onos dies it should transform into a Fade. That way the res isn't wasted and he can still go on a killing spree. No wait, that wouldn't work well.
@Sentinel Is an Onos currently considered massively overpriced and overshadowed by an alternative that essentially costs a third as much?
An argument based on a desire to attain symmetry isn't really valid in an asymmetrical game.
My idea is based on a couple of assumptions which may or may not be correct.
1. Exos are currently too weak for their P-RES investment.
2. JP's are reasonably balanced.
3. An exo should cost roughly 25 P-Res for its current usefullness.
So instead of doing a boring by the numbers P-Res reduction, we could introduce a new fun gameplay mechanic.
1. Ejecting from a destroyed exo wouldn't guarantee you could go on a killing spree since you could get killed pretty fast by whatever killed your exo.
2. Rookies who buy an exo and instantly get taken out by a talented skulk would find it less frustrating.
3. It just "sounds" fun, like something you'd see in an action movie. It certainly sounds more exciting than minor tweaks to damage or movement rate.
4. If an exo continues to cost 40 pres but includes essentially a free jetpack (which might not even survive), that means the exo part essentially cost you 25 pres, and gave you a maybe chance at surviving with a 15 pres value jetpack...
Also, has anyone ever been in an Exo and not realised fast enough that you have a phantom lifeform hitting you especially when you fire your guns? Seems more difficult to tell if you're getting attacked by a silent lifeform in an Exo than a marine
Yesss... I think part of this stems from the fact that there's sooo much occurring on screen sometimes, because the red hit indicators still show. This is why one of the things i suggested is removing these obscurations like NS2+ has done - it might help.
Also, TY for the discussion, I definitely enjoyed it, and agree that thorough testing needs to be done first.
I think the only low impact way to improve them, without upsetting the game balance is to adjust their cost.
Ehh.. I disagree.
Even if they were 25 pres less, matching the price of a JP, i still would choose a jetpack - Exos lack any real combat viability when they move like molasse, essentially they are a turret at best.
(An Exo actually can be killed by a skulk faster than a skulk can kill a sentry battery...and sentries miss less.. so i'd still recommend sentries over Exos lol)
This isn't even going into the issue of encouraging spamming of higher tiered tech, which upsets team composition and can actually be a detriment to a team's viability - Exos can't build, repair, can't disable structures, can't shoot around corners, and can't chase down a fleeing lifeform, and hopefully soon cannot be beaconed etc etc..
i'd prefer at most 2 tunnels and have the rest of the team save their pres for higher life forms.
I agree, but even 2 well placed tunnels being placed at 1 minute into a round - before most pub marine teams even make it across a map - you have essentially provided a fast travel means to better defend strategic positions far across a map.. something i feel can be done already by a fast moving mobile team.
The only difference is that these tunnels usually become mini strongholds, filled with whips, shades, hydras, clogs and ever reinforcing waves of skulks.
It just seems like waayyy too much early map control (1 minute in, really?) to me for pub marines.
Comp mod offsets this by severely nerfing Tunnel HP.. but i feel like the HP isn't an issue as much as the timing. There was a reason Tunnels were originally placed at something like biomass 6..
i think the proto advanced armory research combo should be lowered in res but jetpacks should have to be researched for a higher res making up the res back to current to go jetpacks but overall cheaper to go exo, i would also lower the single mini exo by 5 or 10 res and increase the duel by 5
well, taking away the early tunnels will have quite an impact on gameplay. you'll probably see even more focus on shift hive for celerity... then again, regen might become a bit more viable.
personally, i'd be fine if the pres cost of the tunnel is a bit increased (to 7?). currently, even marines take one out, it doesn't really take that long for a gorge to replace it. atm they are also very much spammed all over the map in lategame, for surprise bile rushes and so on.
I dunno if this is a good idea or not, but if we're considering increasing the cost of gorge tunnels, maybe have the gorge tunnel entrance cost significantly more than the exit. That way, it is much more of an investment to establish tunnels at the beginning, but costs less to re-establish them later in the game if the exit goes down.
Tbh, I wouldn't know how to go about balancing gorge tunnels. I thought I'd just thought I'd throw that idea out there. Maybe making it relatively cheap (compared to initial cost) to re-establish them is an issue in itself.
edit: oops, I just realised that the post above mine suggested an increase in cost BECAUSE it's so cheap to reestablish them. So I guess that goes against what he's trying to achieve there. Nevermind then.. I suppose you could flip-flop what I just said and have entrances be significantly cheaper than exits? That would make it more expensive to re-establish them without effecting the initial investment cost too much. I dunno. Probably just better to disregard my post completely :P
Gorge tunnel "bases" are easy countered by grenades and make for fun battles early on. I don't see the point of changing the game now were all used to how it works.
I would agree Exo's need work but bumping up a bit of armor wont change the games flow like nerfing gorge tunnels. (
Fix the f4 res bug and it would make early tunnels less risk-free. There's still people abusing that bug and it's difficult to see who does it from the opposite team.
I really wish pre-reinforced balance was back, both for Exo and Gorge Tunnel. Exo pain-trains lead to great long basetrade games and researchable GT left the commander / team with choice of fast upgrades or Gorge Tunnel research... No sane commander gets Gorge upgrades before bio 2 or 3 nowadays, making it additionally linear as Alien comm.
(Also Babblers are next to useless, but that was discussed extensively elsewhere)
Be mindful with tunnels, they shouldn't go above 6pres (8gorge + 6 +6 = 20pres at start). I think they're pretty alright at the moment. If anything make going gorge more expensive, but I think that will only discourage people from playing support lategame.
What sort of maturation do tunnels have? It might be worth toying with that to make it so tunnels are relatively weak when first dropped, but after time passes they gain health and armor.
I actually forgot about Babblers. But they could use a buff too. I don't remember if the Babblers thread came to any conclusions.
It sounds like everyone agrees that Exos and Babblers need a slight buff (just enough to get them back off the bench and into the game). The flow of games seems pretty acceptable, so nothing that will have too much of an effect on that. Isn't that always the issue with balance?
Babblers have always been useless, besides the little armor added to other aliens. Bait ball always looked bad and just doesn't work well. As for attacking, again, they have always been nearly useless.
The idea of babblers seemed to be brought into the game out of old ns1 nastalgia. First, they were supposed to come out of crags to do... something. Then it turned to gorge and was near useless.
I never really saw the point of them, besides the awkward-looking armor addition (very strange mechanic too).
I feel this is stating the obvious, but make babblers...
1. easier to create
2. never die of old age (as long as they are not stuck/etc).
3. move faster
4. do actual damage to (or somehow otherwise interfere with) marines, even if they are moving around **gasp**
Once you do all of that, then adjust for balance, without removing what was just added.
Also, have the pheromone projectile act like spit (so its easier to use)
There was also an idea (by Mouse?) to have babblers no longer need eggs, and rather be a chargeable spawning attack. tap for 1 babbler, hold for multiple. This was generally agreed to be a better method of spawning them
I think gorge tunnels are in a good place. They are an important part of (public) early game right now and work pretty well balance wise.
I also don't see many pub alien teams securing anything with at least one early tunnel.
You wouldn't say that if you saw the current win rate percentages.
Early map control is very powerful in a game with slippery slope mechanics.
Also, aliens did just fine when they didn't have 1 min tunnels. They were slower, didn't scale as well, and yet still maintained a 60% win rate in competitive as well as public. They really don't "need" them that early, (let alone multiple turned into fortifications) other than to avoid being locked in their base by a better team - but at that point it's over already anyways.
It's important to note that making them freely available from the start of a round was done so to give the gorge more to do.. It wasn't done for balance reasons.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
That will not fix the 'give gorges something to do' because as I said before, babblers in their current state are not worth the res they cost.
Lets specify that!
Babbler armour: Single use, so only worth it for a big push in a area you must hold. (if you put it on someone else) Situational at best and on such a big push a gorge has plenty work on heals. On the gorge? Any gorge early game taking THAT kind of damage to warrant babbler armour is doing it wrong. Also I said single use yes? I also can imagine a lot of different things I can do with that res lategame. (onos save, gorge flash on rushes & jp etc)
Babbler attack:
seriously? Except making the enemy die from laughter or not pay attention due to said laugh attack, babblers are not remotely suited for damage in any realistic sense.
@DC_Darkling Gorges actually wouldn't need research-free GT to give them something to do. Pre-reinforced was more fun playing Gorge than now.
There's a lot they can do other than placing two GT's:
- Securing areas (just without GT)
- Help commander heal upgrades, RT's
- Heal Skulks
- Battle Gorge
- Meatshield in a pack-attack
Also I wouldn't underestimate Babblers very early game if they were research-free (and maybe cost a little less) on a Skulk.
@Bensen Why at bio 2 and not 1, what would you have at bio 1?
Comments
The only situation that you identify the booster being used in is 1v1, even moreso, an Onos only BARELY wins vs dual minigun if he fully commits AND gets into melee range very quickly. Allowing such quick repositioning not only throws the Onos offguard but more importantly, it also either forces him to commit his lifeform against the Exosuit or forces a retreat which he might die from anyway. Any decently skilled pub server/competitive environment makes playing Onos scary even against normal rifle/shotgun marines, let alone speedy Exosuits.
I'm not saying its a bad idea, it does show promise but not in its current state when its cooldown is very low. It may work for the current Exos but in combination with all the other buffs, you risk a unit that is both extremely powerful (high burst DPS, jetpacks lack dps relatively), very mobile and able to choose his engagements much more frequently with much more risk involved. He can push forward and boost backward as soon as he gets in trouble, maybe he picks off a lifeform or structure or gets solid damage into an Onos forcing a retreat.
Please prove my skepticism wrong, I want exosuits to be back and viable but I don't want them to be potentially OP.
That's a legitimate concern, dualies most definitely are able to kill faster. (15 seconds TTK Biomass 9 Onos)
But dualies move even slower than those speeds in the spreadsheet, and an A3 Dualie can be killed in 4.5 seconds by an Onos!
That's less than 1/3 of the time that it takes for a dualie to kill an Onos, so idk how you are witnessing Oni being barely able to kill them if they begin in melee range as you suggested.
A charging Onos is able to move at 11.5 speed, but really we have to assume the walk speed is in use of 7.5.. and even a dualie boosting for one second (6.5 speed) isn't going to outpace that walking Onos - then he returns to 4.7 speed.
Important to note that 1.5 more seconds from thruster usage makes killing the dualie take 6 seconds... which still isn't 15 seconds.
(And this is still w/o considering a typical scenario of healspray and umbra, which can make sustained firing dualies take upwards of 22 seconds)
No offense meant, (because I feel you have a very legitimate point and I am glad someone is bringing it up!
This is especially fair for the Dualie, considering its recent nerf in DPS by overheating a gun faster when firing both guns, in order to facilitate a burst damage mechanic to avoid sustained fire melting structures and Hives etc.... a nerf that effected no lifeform, other than Oni.
The area I expected more discussion on was the impact it has on skulks considering it would take 6.5 seconds to kill them instead of 5, and even as a biomass 9 skulk you can die very quickly to any Exo that doesn't miss.
Of course, if i missed something and miniguns already deal normal damage, please ignore :P
Because Onos have 0 splash and they tend to missfire on random MACs and Marines. Tis one of the most rage inducing things and Exos tend to have better positioning that getting ganked instantly.
I see that scenario as being separate from what i consider to be the typical healspray / drifter support and maybe umbra experience, however.
I suppose i should have said "the intended scenario" to distinguish
0 splash? You mean splash damage? .. Because neither do hitscan bullets? ::confused face::
The next patch will have some nice MAC position changes that you might like, btw
Also, I agree that positioning is the reason why, but really that Onos should be doing the same thing.
We should also work on this topic migrating back towards some of the other topics, too btw..
Or maybe add to it: Does no one see issues with the already mobile team having multiple 1 minute Gorge Tunnels in public games, leading to early map control?
But I digress away from the 1v1 lark. My main concern is an easier retreat path. In this situation, they can still force a fade/lerk/onos to commit further to the engagement which could greatly increase the risk for aliens, lifeforms already take a huge risk without significant team support especially for fades and lerks.
I concede my point to you though, it's a cool idea and I agree with it to some extent. I lack the sufficient knowledge, experience and most importantly, concrete evidence of firmly deciding my opinion/feedback. This is the reason why I put my opinion of your change, don't just throw it in, make sure its tested even in hypothetical scenarios rather than practical. You could even throw it on public to get a broader testing audience and revert or keep the change depending on its performance. Like I said, I want Exosuits back to being more than laughing stocks, I loved them before they got overhauled and were one of the biggest reasons as a relatively speaking "noob" that I stuck with NS2. Exosuits are just so cool in their design, they feel really powerful to play but in practice, not so much. When I play one now, I'm scared of even a basic skulk hiding on the ceiling.
They've got the ingredients that make them valid choices end-game, they just lack a bit of durability to solidify them as robust additions to a marine team. The removal of speed reduction when a railgun charges up would be fantastic and an amazing step in bringing them as counters to lower lifeforms.
Thanks for your argument @IronHorse, I appreciate your enthusiasm on the matter
Also, has anyone ever been in an Exo and not realised fast enough that you have a phantom lifeform hitting you especially when you fire your guns? Seems more difficult to tell if you're getting attacked by a silent lifeform in an Exo than a marine
Well, it might be true that Skulks can get in the way of bullets, but blowing up a Skulk removes a lot less DPS from an Exo than it does an Onos... and besides, there is that whole fire time thing.
I know and agree that Exos are in a bad place, but I'm just saying that they don't die that fast to Onos. Really, as an Exo, it is Skulks that I fear more of.
If you do anything to their speed/ damage/ armor then everything around it will need rebalancing again.
I think the only low impact way to improve them, without upsetting the game balance is to adjust their cost.
OR...
When your exo gets destroyed (assuming its researched), YOU EJECT AS A JETPACK MARINE! Can you imagine how awesome that would be!
So now you don't need to compare a 40 pres exo, to a 15 pres jetpack. You compare a 40 pres exo+jp, to a 15 pres jetpack.
It kind of makes sense from a roleplay perspective as well, when you take damage as an exo you take armor damage not health, so its not unreasonable to assume the marine inside is unharmed until the armor is breached, in addition the exo obviously includes jetpack technology.
i often play alien commander and i agree that tunnels are incredible useful. however, starting out with multiple tunnels doesn't seem ideal (in pubs at least): due to the increased number of gorges and the multiple positions you have to defend, marines have it much easier to take down the tunnels. i'd prefer at most 2 tunnels and have the rest of the team save their pres for higher life forms. for great early map control, one central tunnel often does the trick, too.
An argument based on a desire to attain symmetry isn't really valid in an asymmetrical game.
My idea is based on a couple of assumptions which may or may not be correct.
1. Exos are currently too weak for their P-RES investment.
2. JP's are reasonably balanced.
3. An exo should cost roughly 25 P-Res for its current usefullness.
So instead of doing a boring by the numbers P-Res reduction, we could introduce a new fun gameplay mechanic.
1. Ejecting from a destroyed exo wouldn't guarantee you could go on a killing spree since you could get killed pretty fast by whatever killed your exo.
2. Rookies who buy an exo and instantly get taken out by a talented skulk would find it less frustrating.
3. It just "sounds" fun, like something you'd see in an action movie. It certainly sounds more exciting than minor tweaks to damage or movement rate.
4. If an exo continues to cost 40 pres but includes essentially a free jetpack (which might not even survive), that means the exo part essentially cost you 25 pres, and gave you a maybe chance at surviving with a 15 pres value jetpack...
Also, TY for the discussion, I definitely enjoyed it, and agree that thorough testing needs to be done first.
Even if they were 25 pres less, matching the price of a JP, i still would choose a jetpack - Exos lack any real combat viability when they move like molasse, essentially they are a turret at best.
(An Exo actually can be killed by a skulk faster than a skulk can kill a sentry battery...and sentries miss less.. so i'd still recommend sentries over Exos lol)
This isn't even going into the issue of encouraging spamming of higher tiered tech, which upsets team composition and can actually be a detriment to a team's viability - Exos can't build, repair, can't disable structures, can't shoot around corners, and can't chase down a fleeing lifeform, and hopefully soon cannot be beaconed etc etc..
I agree, but even 2 well placed tunnels being placed at 1 minute into a round - before most pub marine teams even make it across a map - you have essentially provided a fast travel means to better defend strategic positions far across a map.. something i feel can be done already by a fast moving mobile team.
The only difference is that these tunnels usually become mini strongholds, filled with whips, shades, hydras, clogs and ever reinforcing waves of skulks.
It just seems like waayyy too much early map control (1 minute in, really?) to me for pub marines.
Comp mod offsets this by severely nerfing Tunnel HP.. but i feel like the HP isn't an issue as much as the timing. There was a reason Tunnels were originally placed at something like biomass 6..
personally, i'd be fine if the pres cost of the tunnel is a bit increased (to 7?). currently, even marines take one out, it doesn't really take that long for a gorge to replace it. atm they are also very much spammed all over the map in lategame, for surprise bile rushes and so on.
Tbh, I wouldn't know how to go about balancing gorge tunnels. I thought I'd just thought I'd throw that idea out there. Maybe making it relatively cheap (compared to initial cost) to re-establish them is an issue in itself.
edit: oops, I just realised that the post above mine suggested an increase in cost BECAUSE it's so cheap to reestablish them. So I guess that goes against what he's trying to achieve there. Nevermind then.. I suppose you could flip-flop what I just said and have entrances be significantly cheaper than exits? That would make it more expensive to re-establish them without effecting the initial investment cost too much. I dunno. Probably just better to disregard my post completely :P
I would agree Exo's need work but bumping up a bit of armor wont change the games flow like nerfing gorge tunnels.
(Also Babblers are next to useless, but that was discussed extensively elsewhere)
I also don't see many pub alien teams securing anything with at least one early tunnel.
What sort of maturation do tunnels have? It might be worth toying with that to make it so tunnels are relatively weak when first dropped, but after time passes they gain health and armor.
I actually forgot about Babblers. But they could use a buff too. I don't remember if the Babblers thread came to any conclusions.
It sounds like everyone agrees that Exos and Babblers need a slight buff (just enough to get them back off the bench and into the game). The flow of games seems pretty acceptable, so nothing that will have too much of an effect on that. Isn't that always the issue with balance?
The idea of babblers seemed to be brought into the game out of old ns1 nastalgia. First, they were supposed to come out of crags to do... something. Then it turned to gorge and was near useless.
I never really saw the point of them, besides the awkward-looking armor addition (very strange mechanic too).
This is pretty much where the disscussion led:
Also, have the pheromone projectile act like spit (so its easier to use)
There was also an idea (by Mouse?) to have babblers no longer need eggs, and rather be a chargeable spawning attack. tap for 1 babbler, hold for multiple. This was generally agreed to be a better method of spawning them
Early map control is very powerful in a game with slippery slope mechanics.
Also, aliens did just fine when they didn't have 1 min tunnels. They were slower, didn't scale as well, and yet still maintained a 60% win rate in competitive as well as public. They really don't "need" them that early, (let alone multiple turned into fortifications) other than to avoid being locked in their base by a better team - but at that point it's over already anyways.
It's important to note that making them freely available from the start of a round was done so to give the gorge more to do.. It wasn't done for balance reasons.
Lets specify that!
Babbler armour: Single use, so only worth it for a big push in a area you must hold. (if you put it on someone else) Situational at best and on such a big push a gorge has plenty work on heals. On the gorge? Any gorge early game taking THAT kind of damage to warrant babbler armour is doing it wrong. Also I said single use yes? I also can imagine a lot of different things I can do with that res lategame. (onos save, gorge flash on rushes & jp etc)
Babbler attack:
seriously? Except making the enemy die from laughter or not pay attention due to said laugh attack, babblers are not remotely suited for damage in any realistic sense.
What do you think about webs instead? We never get to see them used, and it goes along well with early route blocking mechanics like Hydras and clogs
There's a lot they can do other than placing two GT's:
- Securing areas (just without GT)
- Help commander heal upgrades, RT's
- Heal Skulks
- Battle Gorge
- Meatshield in a pack-attack
Also I wouldn't underestimate Babblers very early game if they were research-free (and maybe cost a little less) on a Skulk.
@Bensen Why at bio 2 and not 1, what would you have at bio 1?