Most of the CDT Members are 'public' players, with only a small minority Competetive. My community, YO Community, are almost fully Public. We dont play comp.
nonetheless, the CDT appears to making decisions based on the more uniform and outspoken opinions of a minority of competitive players or those that support them.
Speaking from experience, NS2 needs change. It needs to evolve as NS1 did. CompMod was just a start, not everything we do is taken from CompMod. But they came up with some good ideas and we would be negligent to discard them.
you are right it does and should change as NS1 did but the evolutions in the later years of ns1 were not so overwhelmingly based on the wants of competitive players as is the case here. i disagree: you think they are "good ideas" but i think they are simply "other ideas". maybe you play more games with CDT members and their friends in playtesting than not and are influenced by their arguments/feelings toward compmod features?
We do listen, we post on the forums almost every day, and keep our Trello Public.
the CDT being transparent and public is not the issue nor does listening and reading comments mean that the CDT is acting in the interest of those users and his/her comments.
If you had any issues with what we have been doing, you can comment and vote on our ideas there.
no, i can not. i can apparently only vote for something and i can not post comments. of those that have cared enough to try participating in and influencing community development, odds are i'm not the only one who has had this experience in having difficulty posting comments, opinions, or voting against a propsed feature.
maybe the CDT should help us understand more clearly HOW to vote for AND against a feature and also help us understand how to propose our own changes. why not include them in a weekly post on the main ns2 page and ingame for users to vote for/against?
We care about NS2 and it's community, which is why even though your opinion is valued, we will still listen.
thank you for that statement but please do not confuse listening to a user opinion with acting in the interest of his/her opinions.
transparent development may be a good start but lets face facts...UWE is SELLING a game that is being developed on the freetime of its users with very little quality assurance...the least the CDT can do is be transparent.
(you seem to always come at it as if we're out to destroy the game you love)
no, not destroy the game WE ALL love but i have always been concerned about the trend toward competitive/professional play and its influence on game development and playibility. undeniably, with this build (268) that fear has been more warranted than ever before.
We're actually here to save it and improve it. But I appreciate your honesty. We'll try to continue to improve NS2 so one day, it might meet some of your standards.
i believe you all have good intentions but that the choices made are clouded by regular experiences and discussions between those on the inside cdt/comp player/playtester circle and not based on the experiences or discussions of those that are newer or less seasoned in the game.
again, i suggest that UWE make NS2 FREE TO PLAY to grow the user base, increase the input of players outside of its circle of friends and agreers, increase the number and quality of community developers, and fullfill its mission to bring people together through games!
or continue to sell it and make all development professionally fulltime and profit driven.
Pubs forced to use CompMod? This is such an unpleasant-sounding feature. CompMod may have a lot of theorycrafting to support it, I won't argue.... but at its heart, CompMod is a 6v6 mode meant for highly skilled,pre-made players who want to WIN*. That's not me. That's not the majority of [my] NS2 friends either. I've played a dozen hours of it so I can at least speak from a bit of experience. These are MAJOR changes and the pub scene hasn't seen something this drastic in a long time. I never busted out the arguments when comp-vs-pub balance was hot, but I feel the need to say something now that future NS2 balance intentions have been made more clear.
These CompMod people might have fresh ideas, but their ideas are meant to mesh together to form a comp-friendly environment. I'm sure the balance-for-the-pros argument has been exhausted, but the feeling I get here, in the advent of Global CompMod, is this: NS2 is being balanced for them and possibly even by them. Sure, you can say the CDT is cherry picking which balance changes to implement, but I find myself asking if that's any different because the seedlings of "comp balance" are undoubtedly still there. Opinions were formed with the bias of pro players, they don't just disappear. Pros make suggestions based on their gameplay, not ours.
Do I give a shit? Probably not. I'm not the boss and the meta was getting pretty stale anyway. Now that I got that bit out, I'd like to ask this one question that weighs very heavily on me.
Will the pro players continue to use their own version of CompMod? Will the pub version of CompMod be updated as the pro players update their own? Are we leaving the fate of NS2 pub balance to a couple of pro teams that I can count on 2 hands (at the risk of sounding dramatic)?
Upshot from all this? I can laugh that KKG Servers are now forced to use CompMod despite the fact that very few people voted for it, heh.
I don't know what pug communities you're frequenting, but the NSL, reddit, and AusNS2 pug ALL run the latest or some version of CompMod and have been doing so since Comp Mod was started almost 6 months ago.
So far, in all the complaints about features from Comp Mod transferred into vanilla, I haven't read a single salient post listing features and reason why people are so vehemently opposed to it. It reads more like, "Changes were made. I hate any and ALL type of changes. I'm mad because I didn't get input into those changes." The community has a great soapbox called the forums if users choose to use it constructively. Did you have as much access and interaction before the CDT took over development? Certainly not. It's farcical to talk about a lack of transparency with the CDT.
NS2 by it's very nature is a competitive game at any player count. Whether its' 6v6 or, for the love of the Babbler King, 20v20. It's called Natural Selection, not Natural Hold My Hand. It stands to reason that a Comp Mod produced by competitive players who have devoted the most playtime and play at the highest levels would have some idea of balance in this game.
The Comp Mod was born from frustration with the vanilla game that was stagnant and absolutely broken in many ways. It wasn't made just to suit the whims of a competitive community. When it was started, it was my hope that some of it would filter into the vanilla game to mend and make better the game we all love and play. Speaking of bringing peoples in the community together, I bet this is the first step in seeing a lot of competitive players returning to the pub scene.
I am not a competitive player and I have never been.
And I LOVE the changes that the CDT is implementing in the vanilla game.
I am sad that some of you guys seem so unhappy with the changes. I guess that it is completely impossible to make everyone happy. I would like to ask you to please try the changes for a little while. I think that you will like it after a while
If you think that CDT is simply adapting the vanilla game to the needs of the competitive players, you are completely wrong. There is a lot more changes in the compMod that they are not bringing to vanilla, they just integrated the parts that most part of the community thinks that makes the game better regardless of the skill of the player. If this creates somehow an unbalance in the game, that will be reflected at Hive and NS2stats and they will be able to correct it.
Don't be afraid of some changes before you try them out... that reminds me to Sewlek's balance mod. Some people hated the changes, but most people saw a lot of potential in them. And after some time it is clear that the game has become a lot better thanks to those changes
PS: Shadow step and vortex were great ideas, like the old vortex, but the truth is that I have not met a single commander that upgrades the Fade until they have the whole tech tree and a lot of money... because they were not that useful. Metabolize is clearly useful and encourage you to play, instead of making you wait until you recover the energy
PPS: anyways, I think that it is a good thing that you came here and express your opinion. That's what the forums are for. Just don't get mad as if someone is trying to hurt your gameplay experience. I hope you keep playing with us and having lots of fun
I like the compmod changes so far apart from a few weird things like the fade blink but has anyone played 12v12 recently? Does anyone recognise how broken GLs are on large servers? They were nerfed in the wrong way. The current problem with them is they are anti-everything, even Onos in the right situations without a skill requirement in the slightest. Shotguns are anti-everything but they're also hard to use in contrast to the GL.
GL player damage is absurdly high, 1 shotting skulks, 2 hits to kill a lerk, 3-4 hits on a fade and when you have 2+ GLs spamming nades in every narrow lane path out of your hive that's being assaulted, you can never push in or force the marine train back without being forced into a rush leaving your base exposed or you risk being instantly killed without any indication. All it takes for a lifeform is to take a bit of rifle/shotgun damage and 1-2 GL hits and your fade or lerk is dead, enjoy your skulk for the next 5+ minutes. It is the single most frustrating aspect of this game right now and I'm amazed that it wasn't changed. I'm fine with dying to rifles or shotguns because its not easy but GL volleys are ridiculous and a huge reason why playing aliens right now is nothing but a chore in the late game for me.
The reduction in cost fixes very little other than the long-term game which are few and far between. Player damage needs to be reduced because in team-fights, you can't control your engagements as any lifeform and you can't control how much you want to commit to a push if you just die instantly at random, there's very little you can do directly. I can't be the only one who utterly despises GLs right now but if I am, I'm surprised.
I don't know what pug communities you're frequenting, but the NSL, reddit, and AusNS2 pug ALL run the latest or some version of CompMod and have been doing so since Comp Mod was started almost 6 months ago.
So far, in all the complaints about features from Comp Mod transferred into vanilla, I haven't read a single salient post listing features and reason why people are so vehemently opposed to it. It reads more like, "Changes were made. I hate any and ALL type of changes. I'm mad because I didn't get input into those changes."
Good to see my reasoning and arguments fall upon deaf ears, while my PUG typo does not.
If I have to be more blunt, I will. This patch feels like a blanket-fix towards our previously stagnating meta game. A blanket fix made for a specific reason; 6v6 comp.
"Hey guys, I hear CompMod is looking good and our current meta doesn't."
If I have to be more blunt, I will. This patch feels like a blanket-fix towards our previously stagnating meta game. A blanket fix made for a specific reason; 6v6 comp.
Not asking for bluntness, but specificity with well thought reasoning and not "feelings". What parts and why? It's ridiculous to boil down the elements of balance changes with 2 or 3 sentences.
Good to see my reasoning and arguments fall upon deaf ears
One glaring issue seems to be that you haven't actually given any reasoning as to why you think these changes negatively effect public gameplay. Be a little more specific. What is it specifically that you have issue with, and why do you think it is bad for pubs?
If you think that the pub community isn't being represented, be the ambassador they deserve and provide thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments addressing your concerns. Arguments like "these changes are meant for high level 6v6 comp play therefore they are bad for pubs" do not actually describe any concrete problems that effect the pub scene, and therefore they can not (as opposed to "will not") be given any proper consideration that may potentially be acted upon to provide the changes you want.
I have enjoyed this game for a long time and I still do. I also want to make sure it stays great. Issues I have discovered while playing this game in the latest build include:
-Gorges being too nerfed and not being able to properly operate! Gorges before this build could easy drop to tunnels and defend it. Now gorges are sitting ducks while waiting ten res ticks at the start of the game. Clogs can only do so much, especially without a second side of a tunnel and without a hydra.
-Marines are too easily able to do early rushes with the powerful and now cheapened advanced armory. This has also been made easier since games with 9+ players start with two infantry portals.
-Gorges, though it is great (for aliens), should not be able to get bile in two minutes or less. As much as this benefits the terribly nerfed gorges, it allows for easy rushes on marine bases.
Overall, there are some very good changes in this build, but the gameplay has changed too drastically. It needs to be re-balanced. I want this great game to survive!
I have enjoyed this game for a long time and I still do. I also want to make sure it stays great. Issues I have discovered while playing this game in the latest build include:
-Gorges being too nerfed and not being able to properly operate! Gorges before this build could easy drop to tunnels and defend it. Now gorges are sitting ducks while waiting ten res ticks at the start of the game. Clogs can only do so much, especially without a second side of a tunnel and without a hydra.
-Marines are too easily able to do early rushes with the powerful and now cheapened advanced armory. This has also been made easier since games with 9+ players start with two infantry portals.
-Gorges, though it is great (for aliens), should not be able to get bile in two minutes or less. As much as this benefits the terribly nerfed gorges, it allows for easy rushes on marine bases.
Overall, there are some very good changes in this build, but the gameplay has changed too drastically. It needs to be re-balanced. I want this great game to survive!
I think you showed the nerf then unnerf of the gorge. Earlier bile, later tunnels. Not that I agree with them, but it is a tradeoff.
Yet another fade remake? From what i read it looks like shadowstep and vortex are gone. I feel like you guys are having a lot of trouble decicing what fades should actually play like, it's already departed far from what i feel was the best fading (shadowstep fade) but once again it looks like the balance team is going to manage to piss everyone off who learned the new one again.
I think you showed the nerf then unnerf of the gorge. Earlier bile, later tunnels. Not that I agree with them, but it is a tradeoff. [/quote]
Yes to an extent it is, but aliens have a horrible time gaining ground in this build, especially on maps like refinery. In one game I played on refinery we were trapped in Smeltery because marines had denied all our gorge's their tunnels. Marines were all over the map after starting in containment in 15 seconds or less killing any hope we had.
As a competitive player, I have very mixed feelings about the Comp Mod changes. The mod contains a lot of improvements, and it's nice that things like cross spawns and TRes adjustments have been brought to vanilla, features that have a lot of play time and support and that improve the game's strategy, focus, and consistency. Some of the changes, though, are significant and haven't been entirely successful or thoroughly tested in competitive play. Contrary to some of the claims in this thread, not all of the Comp Mod changes have unanimous support from competitive players, and changes are rarely rolled back or swapped for alternative options when they're not working well. I think two of the changes that made it into build 268 should be reconsidered:
First, alien lifeforms being cheaper after the first one makes it a lot harder for marines to take advantage of clearing lifeforms, and in lower divisions where marine accuracy and strategy are worse, the effects have been more pronounced and less loved. I'll be curious to see how this works out in pubs, but I suspect it's a pretty big buff. If the intent is to allow aliens to take bigger risks late-game, I'd rather see lifeform discounts of 3 PRes tied to having a 2nd or 3rd hive or reaching 4 or 7 biomass. This solves the late-game problem, opens up new strategies for early- or mid-game, and gives marines the option to counter.
Second, the commander PRes situation really needs another look, since the incentives are all wrong. The commander now gets paid not to command. When he's waiting for a task to complete, he may as well get out of the hive to collect a few ticks of resources and then get back in, which is silly and feels very much like exploiting an oversight. The tradeoff is supposed to be between having an extra player on the field and having someone who can drop structures, use abilities, and do research. Collecting PRes is unrelated to this dynamic, so it shouldn't depend on it.
Instead, the commander should either collect PRes all the time (maybe at a reduced rate) or never. If never or at a reduced rate, that penalty can be sticky, staying on the last person to enter the chair or hive in case a new commander needs to switch in. For Comp Mod, that penalty instead would follow the commander the whole round, since you have the same players throughout. While I prefer for balance reasons that the commander never get PRes or get it much more slowly, either solution avoids the bad game design of tying two unrelated elements together.
I have enjoyed this game for a long time and I still do. I also want to make sure it stays great. Issues I have discovered while playing this game in the latest build include:
-Gorges being too nerfed and not being able to properly operate! Gorges before this build could easy drop to tunnels and defend it. Now gorges are sitting ducks while waiting ten res ticks at the start of the game. Clogs can only do so much, especially without a second side of a tunnel and without a hydra.
-Marines are too easily able to do early rushes with the powerful and now cheapened advanced armory. This has also been made easier since games with 9+ players start with two infantry portals.
-Gorges, though it is great (for aliens), should not be able to get bile in two minutes or less. As much as this benefits the terribly nerfed gorges, it allows for easy rushes on marine bases.
Overall, there are some very good changes in this build, but the gameplay has changed too drastically. It needs to be re-balanced. I want this great game to survive!
-Gorges were not nerfed? Gorge tunnel HP was by 25% though.
But, you are able to build a tunnel exit and entrance still within the first minute of a round. (before most pub marines make it to that room) And by 1:30 in a round you will have 3 RTs if you only helped build 1 RT.. meaning you will have enough for hydras to fortify still, you just won't be able to plop down 3 hydras with the shade and a whip and a clogwall immediately - so you'll have to work slightly harder to defend those multiple 1 minute gorge tunnels spanning across the map on large pubs.
-Marines did need somewhat of a helping hand given the win rates and now the increased frequency of higher lifeforms mid game... and this was also done to assist in making Exos more reachable as well i believe. (Give them a try!)
This patch feels like a blanket-fix towards our previously stagnating meta game. A blanket fix made for a specific reason; 6v6 comp.
That's still not being specific like Zefram mentioned... but i'll bite anyways:
Decoupled alien upgrades = more strategy and variety for all to enjoy, not just comp
Metabolize = Can't manage your energy as a fade because you're still learning? Metabolize is here to help the rookie.
Improved Onos movement = You wait all game for the expensive Rhino and then you die to 4 shotgun marines because you didn't know not to fully enter the room? This change will help you learn.
Decreased Jetpack fuel = those pesky comp vets won't stay in the air as long anymore. Prepare your best fly ball skulk face.
Decreased lifeform costs = Less punishing elements means its easier for rookies to learn how to finally play the lerk and fade because they can just buy another! Lessens the slippery slope aspect too, which hits pubs harder.
Reduced Adv Armory = More Exos for pubs! Oh and more cool toys like FTs and GLs too i suppose..
All Exosuit buffs = HELL YEA PUBBERS, OUR TIME TO REIGN HAS RETURNED!!
I play large games as well, but if you have play this build on both sides. At the moment if aliens loose the majority of the game in the first five minutes, aliens WILL loose. Making the advanced armory that cheap is not good at all! I've seen a marine team get exo's, sentries, jetpacks and loads of upgrades in the first ten minutes... When aliens have had two hives and have not even gotten bile yet. It's not balanced in the slightest and not good for pub games at all.
Wtf is with the blink volume on fades? It's ridiculously loud that I can't even hear marine footsteps right next to me. It drowns out any other sounds including voice comm.
Wtf is with the blink volume on fades? It's ridiculously loud that I can't even hear marine footsteps right next to me. It drowns out any other sounds including voice comm.
Yes... it's quite irritating. Volume was fine in 267, and it's far too loud in 268.
Headphone surround type and video if possible please. These sounds were so quiet they were non-existent, so I don't see how it could be fine how it was in 267
Text on a listen server with no mods enabled too
Yet another fade remake? From what i read it looks like shadowstep and vortex are gone. I feel like you guys are having a lot of trouble decicing what fades should actually play like, it's already departed far from what i feel was the best fading (shadowstep fade) but once again it looks like the balance team is going to manage to piss everyone off who learned the new one again.
Try playing it before you judge. It's more or less the same as before, gameplay wise. You still move around with blink the same way. The only difference is two seldom used abilities are replaced by something that actually proves to be useful.
First, alien lifeforms being cheaper after the first one makes it a lot harder for marines to take advantage of clearing lifeforms, and in lower divisions where marine accuracy and strategy are worse, the effects have been more pronounced and less loved. I'll be curious to see how this works out in pubs, but I suspect it's a pretty big buff. If the intent is to allow aliens to take bigger risks late-game, I'd rather see lifeform discounts of 3 PRes tied to having a 2nd or 3rd hive or reaching 4 or 7 biomass. This solves the late-game problem, opens up new strategies for early- or mid-game, and gives marines the option to counter.
Well stated, I really like this idea and am quoting for truth.
I'm happy with the patch overall. A couple gripes though:
- The new blink sound change repeatedly annoyed me this evening. Please tone it down.
- I thought shadowstep was an interesting ability and am sad to see it go. This also seems to nerf stab as a result, since you can't blink.
- If the objective is to nerf super early tunnels, why not make the maturity HP range bigger rather than just cutting 25% of HP? Late game tunnels are nearly as key for aliens as gates are for marines... I can't imagine anyone demanding a 25% reduction on gates.
Is there a reason why tunnels were nerfed? In pub play they always get decimated within seconds as people are always yelling out to focus fire them. You always end up with 3+ guys shooting and melting a tunnel down in seconds, even with a crag.
If anything it should have been buffed in the sound department when shaded. Shade is suppose to hide sound when fully upgraded, but the tunnel makes an exit sound that can be heard on the other side of the map. It's ridiculous. A shade at the very least should reduce the exit sound.
If anything it should have been buffed in the sound department when shaded. Shade is suppose to hide sound when fully upgraded, but the tunnel makes an exit sound that can be heard on the other side of the map. It's ridiculous. A shade at the very least should reduce the exit sound.
So far, in all the complaints about features from Comp Mod transferred into vanilla, I haven't read a single salient post listing features and reason why people are so vehemently opposed to it.
The changes to Fade damage wasn't even near unanimous in the competitive community. The Onos movement change (Which I still dislike) was probably drastically closer to being unanimous than the Fade damage change.
Why is it an issue? Well, in compmod you have 6v6 (1 Skulk/2 Lerks/2 Fades). If Lerks are out of position and only leave 2 Fades and 1 Skulk to grind a gate, it'll take a while to widdle that gate down. Whereas, in public games, there is a possibility of 3 Fades, and still 3 Skulks. Before, that Gate would go down pretty fast but now it's going to go down lightning fast with little to no reaction time available for the Marine team. This change was not thought out for public games, period. It was an attempt to try and standardize some of compmod's (drastic) changes into vanilla, with no thought about faction balance in a public scenario. Again, I am standing by my stance of what I previously posted; It's not: "This is broken, and should be fixed/changed." it's: "You know what'd be a cool idea? X!".
"Changes were made. I hate any and ALL type of changes. I'm mad because I didn't get input into those changes."
The way this is worded is very insulting. I welcome changes and look forward to good changes. I however, am upset that I and hundreds of other people didn't(and don't) get a single input into these balance changes. They were not transparent, were concealed from the majority population, and then disguised that it's being done out of best interest for the community.
I don't know if you realized this Zefram... but people who don't get any input in major changes on something they use every day are usually... upset.
Next time something major like this is to happen, it needs to be announced and discussed amongst the community. Not shoved down our throats without disregard and stating, "You need to try it first! I'm sure you'll love it!".
EDIT: The CDT has taken a really big step from making great quality-of-life changes to now dictating how the game can be played from their own personalized experiences. Please take a step back and continue making quality-of-life changes/balances rather than drastic overhauls.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Not all of compmod was introduced. Also changes where made that are not in comp mod, specifically for pub play.
At the end of the day, the risk became bigger and bigger that comp mod and ns2 vanilla became two different games. Having different tech trees etc was just too much of a difference. So of course something had to be done to bring the two directions back together, at least on the foundations. Now values can always be adjusted etc, but having different tech trees and abilites in pub play and comp play makes not much sense.
Now nobody says balance is perfect, and there will certainly be balance adjustements in the next patch based on the stats and feedback gathered from this patch. But if you could shift the discussion from "i'm against all comp changes!" to something more productive, that would be great. Also, discussion balance changes HOURS after the patch release makes no sense. Let the meta settle down a little and talk about this in a few days.
Not all of compmod was introduced. Also changes where made that are not in comp mod, specifically for pub play.
At the end of the day, the risk became bigger and bigger that comp mod and ns2 vanilla became two different games. Having different tech trees etc was just too much of a difference. So of course something had to be done to bring the two directions back together, at least on the foundations. Now values can always be adjusted etc, but having different tech trees and abilites in pub play and comp play makes not much sense.
Now nobody says balance is perfect, and there will certainly be balance adjustements in the next patch based on the stats and feedback gathered from this patch. But if you could shift the discussion from "i'm against all comp changes!" to something more productive, that would be great. Also, discussion balance changes HOURS after the patch release makes no sense. Let the meta settle down a little and talk about this in a few days.
It should have been discussed before it was brought onboard, amongst others outside of the circle of CDT&friends. It was snuck in and forced into the next patch without community input.
"I'm against all comp changes!" I don't think anyone (correct me if I'm wrong) has stated that they're 100% against all compmod implementations. There are either unsures, or some content with only certain changes.
Also, it was compmod that moved further away from vanilla gameplay. Why is Vanilla being adjusted when compmod is causing the issue of seperation. We aren't making changes to make Vanilla like CombatMOD... so why should we do compmod?
Comments
you are right it does and should change as NS1 did but the evolutions in the later years of ns1 were not so overwhelmingly based on the wants of competitive players as is the case here. i disagree: you think they are "good ideas" but i think they are simply "other ideas". maybe you play more games with CDT members and their friends in playtesting than not and are influenced by their arguments/feelings toward compmod features?
the CDT being transparent and public is not the issue nor does listening and reading comments mean that the CDT is acting in the interest of those users and his/her comments.
no, i can not. i can apparently only vote for something and i can not post comments. of those that have cared enough to try participating in and influencing community development, odds are i'm not the only one who has had this experience in having difficulty posting comments, opinions, or voting against a propsed feature.
maybe the CDT should help us understand more clearly HOW to vote for AND against a feature and also help us understand how to propose our own changes. why not include them in a weekly post on the main ns2 page and ingame for users to vote for/against?
thank you for that statement but please do not confuse listening to a user opinion with acting in the interest of his/her opinions.
transparent development may be a good start but lets face facts...UWE is SELLING a game that is being developed on the freetime of its users with very little quality assurance...the least the CDT can do is be transparent.
no, not destroy the game WE ALL love but i have always been concerned about the trend toward competitive/professional play and its influence on game development and playibility. undeniably, with this build (268) that fear has been more warranted than ever before.
i believe you all have good intentions but that the choices made are clouded by regular experiences and discussions between those on the inside cdt/comp player/playtester circle and not based on the experiences or discussions of those that are newer or less seasoned in the game.
again, i suggest that UWE make NS2 FREE TO PLAY to grow the user base, increase the input of players outside of its circle of friends and agreers, increase the number and quality of community developers, and fullfill its mission to bring people together through games!
or continue to sell it and make all development professionally fulltime and profit driven.
These CompMod people might have fresh ideas, but their ideas are meant to mesh together to form a comp-friendly environment. I'm sure the balance-for-the-pros argument has been exhausted, but the feeling I get here, in the advent of Global CompMod, is this: NS2 is being balanced for them and possibly even by them. Sure, you can say the CDT is cherry picking which balance changes to implement, but I find myself asking if that's any different because the seedlings of "comp balance" are undoubtedly still there. Opinions were formed with the bias of pro players, they don't just disappear. Pros make suggestions based on their gameplay, not ours.
Do I give a shit? Probably not. I'm not the boss and the meta was getting pretty stale anyway. Now that I got that bit out, I'd like to ask this one question that weighs very heavily on me.
Will the pro players continue to use their own version of CompMod? Will the pub version of CompMod be updated as the pro players update their own? Are we leaving the fate of NS2 pub balance to a couple of pro teams that I can count on 2 hands (at the risk of sounding dramatic)?
Upshot from all this? I can laugh that KKG Servers are now forced to use CompMod despite the fact that very few people voted for it, heh.
So far, in all the complaints about features from Comp Mod transferred into vanilla, I haven't read a single salient post listing features and reason why people are so vehemently opposed to it. It reads more like, "Changes were made. I hate any and ALL type of changes. I'm mad because I didn't get input into those changes." The community has a great soapbox called the forums if users choose to use it constructively. Did you have as much access and interaction before the CDT took over development? Certainly not. It's farcical to talk about a lack of transparency with the CDT.
NS2 by it's very nature is a competitive game at any player count. Whether its' 6v6 or, for the love of the Babbler King, 20v20. It's called Natural Selection, not Natural Hold My Hand. It stands to reason that a Comp Mod produced by competitive players who have devoted the most playtime and play at the highest levels would have some idea of balance in this game.
The Comp Mod was born from frustration with the vanilla game that was stagnant and absolutely broken in many ways. It wasn't made just to suit the whims of a competitive community. When it was started, it was my hope that some of it would filter into the vanilla game to mend and make better the game we all love and play. Speaking of bringing peoples in the community together, I bet this is the first step in seeing a lot of competitive players returning to the pub scene.
And I LOVE the changes that the CDT is implementing in the vanilla game.
I am sad that some of you guys seem so unhappy with the changes. I guess that it is completely impossible to make everyone happy. I would like to ask you to please try the changes for a little while. I think that you will like it after a while
If you think that CDT is simply adapting the vanilla game to the needs of the competitive players, you are completely wrong. There is a lot more changes in the compMod that they are not bringing to vanilla, they just integrated the parts that most part of the community thinks that makes the game better regardless of the skill of the player. If this creates somehow an unbalance in the game, that will be reflected at Hive and NS2stats and they will be able to correct it.
Don't be afraid of some changes before you try them out... that reminds me to Sewlek's balance mod. Some people hated the changes, but most people saw a lot of potential in them. And after some time it is clear that the game has become a lot better thanks to those changes
PS: Shadow step and vortex were great ideas, like the old vortex, but the truth is that I have not met a single commander that upgrades the Fade until they have the whole tech tree and a lot of money... because they were not that useful. Metabolize is clearly useful and encourage you to play, instead of making you wait until you recover the energy
PPS: anyways, I think that it is a good thing that you came here and express your opinion. That's what the forums are for. Just don't get mad as if someone is trying to hurt your gameplay experience. I hope you keep playing with us and having lots of fun
GL player damage is absurdly high, 1 shotting skulks, 2 hits to kill a lerk, 3-4 hits on a fade and when you have 2+ GLs spamming nades in every narrow lane path out of your hive that's being assaulted, you can never push in or force the marine train back without being forced into a rush leaving your base exposed or you risk being instantly killed without any indication. All it takes for a lifeform is to take a bit of rifle/shotgun damage and 1-2 GL hits and your fade or lerk is dead, enjoy your skulk for the next 5+ minutes. It is the single most frustrating aspect of this game right now and I'm amazed that it wasn't changed. I'm fine with dying to rifles or shotguns because its not easy but GL volleys are ridiculous and a huge reason why playing aliens right now is nothing but a chore in the late game for me.
The reduction in cost fixes very little other than the long-term game which are few and far between. Player damage needs to be reduced because in team-fights, you can't control your engagements as any lifeform and you can't control how much you want to commit to a push if you just die instantly at random, there's very little you can do directly. I can't be the only one who utterly despises GLs right now but if I am, I'm surprised.
Welcome to Natural Nadespam 2.
Good to see my reasoning and arguments fall upon deaf ears, while my PUG typo does not.
If I have to be more blunt, I will. This patch feels like a blanket-fix towards our previously stagnating meta game. A blanket fix made for a specific reason; 6v6 comp.
"Hey guys, I hear CompMod is looking good and our current meta doesn't."
"Make it vanilla, boys"
Not asking for bluntness, but specificity with well thought reasoning and not "feelings". What parts and why? It's ridiculous to boil down the elements of balance changes with 2 or 3 sentences.
One glaring issue seems to be that you haven't actually given any reasoning as to why you think these changes negatively effect public gameplay. Be a little more specific. What is it specifically that you have issue with, and why do you think it is bad for pubs?
If you think that the pub community isn't being represented, be the ambassador they deserve and provide thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments addressing your concerns. Arguments like "these changes are meant for high level 6v6 comp play therefore they are bad for pubs" do not actually describe any concrete problems that effect the pub scene, and therefore they can not (as opposed to "will not") be given any proper consideration that may potentially be acted upon to provide the changes you want.
-Gorges being too nerfed and not being able to properly operate! Gorges before this build could easy drop to tunnels and defend it. Now gorges are sitting ducks while waiting ten res ticks at the start of the game. Clogs can only do so much, especially without a second side of a tunnel and without a hydra.
-Marines are too easily able to do early rushes with the powerful and now cheapened advanced armory. This has also been made easier since games with 9+ players start with two infantry portals.
-Gorges, though it is great (for aliens), should not be able to get bile in two minutes or less. As much as this benefits the terribly nerfed gorges, it allows for easy rushes on marine bases.
Overall, there are some very good changes in this build, but the gameplay has changed too drastically. It needs to be re-balanced. I want this great game to survive!
I think you showed the nerf then unnerf of the gorge. Earlier bile, later tunnels. Not that I agree with them, but it is a tradeoff.
Yes to an extent it is, but aliens have a horrible time gaining ground in this build, especially on maps like refinery. In one game I played on refinery we were trapped in Smeltery because marines had denied all our gorge's their tunnels. Marines were all over the map after starting in containment in 15 seconds or less killing any hope we had.
Anyway, should I attempt to fire this game up or wait for a hot patch?
First, alien lifeforms being cheaper after the first one makes it a lot harder for marines to take advantage of clearing lifeforms, and in lower divisions where marine accuracy and strategy are worse, the effects have been more pronounced and less loved. I'll be curious to see how this works out in pubs, but I suspect it's a pretty big buff. If the intent is to allow aliens to take bigger risks late-game, I'd rather see lifeform discounts of 3 PRes tied to having a 2nd or 3rd hive or reaching 4 or 7 biomass. This solves the late-game problem, opens up new strategies for early- or mid-game, and gives marines the option to counter.
Second, the commander PRes situation really needs another look, since the incentives are all wrong. The commander now gets paid not to command. When he's waiting for a task to complete, he may as well get out of the hive to collect a few ticks of resources and then get back in, which is silly and feels very much like exploiting an oversight. The tradeoff is supposed to be between having an extra player on the field and having someone who can drop structures, use abilities, and do research. Collecting PRes is unrelated to this dynamic, so it shouldn't depend on it.
Instead, the commander should either collect PRes all the time (maybe at a reduced rate) or never. If never or at a reduced rate, that penalty can be sticky, staying on the last person to enter the chair or hive in case a new commander needs to switch in. For Comp Mod, that penalty instead would follow the commander the whole round, since you have the same players throughout. While I prefer for balance reasons that the commander never get PRes or get it much more slowly, either solution avoids the bad game design of tying two unrelated elements together.
But, you are able to build a tunnel exit and entrance still within the first minute of a round. (before most pub marines make it to that room) And by 1:30 in a round you will have 3 RTs if you only helped build 1 RT.. meaning you will have enough for hydras to fortify still, you just won't be able to plop down 3 hydras with the shade and a whip and a clogwall immediately - so you'll have to work slightly harder to defend those multiple 1 minute gorge tunnels spanning across the map on large pubs.
-Marines did need somewhat of a helping hand given the win rates and now the increased frequency of higher lifeforms mid game... and this was also done to assist in making Exos more reachable as well i believe. (Give them a try!)
That's still not being specific like Zefram mentioned... but i'll bite anyways:
Decoupled alien upgrades = more strategy and variety for all to enjoy, not just comp
Metabolize = Can't manage your energy as a fade because you're still learning? Metabolize is here to help the rookie.
Improved Onos movement = You wait all game for the expensive Rhino and then you die to 4 shotgun marines because you didn't know not to fully enter the room? This change will help you learn.
Decreased Jetpack fuel = those pesky comp vets won't stay in the air as long anymore. Prepare your best fly ball skulk face.
Decreased lifeform costs = Less punishing elements means its easier for rookies to learn how to finally play the lerk and fade because they can just buy another! Lessens the slippery slope aspect too, which hits pubs harder.
Reduced Adv Armory = More Exos for pubs! Oh and more cool toys like FTs and GLs too i suppose..
All Exosuit buffs = HELL YEA PUBBERS, OUR TIME TO REIGN HAS RETURNED!!
Disclaimer: I am a pubber.
Edit - workin with the horse of iron.
Headphone surround type and video if possible please. These sounds were so quiet they were non-existent, so I don't see how it could be fine how it was in 267
Text on a listen server with no mods enabled too
Try playing it before you judge. It's more or less the same as before, gameplay wise. You still move around with blink the same way. The only difference is two seldom used abilities are replaced by something that actually proves to be useful.
Well stated, I really like this idea and am quoting for truth.
I'm happy with the patch overall. A couple gripes though:
- The new blink sound change repeatedly annoyed me this evening. Please tone it down.
- I thought shadowstep was an interesting ability and am sad to see it go. This also seems to nerf stab as a result, since you can't blink.
- If the objective is to nerf super early tunnels, why not make the maturity HP range bigger rather than just cutting 25% of HP? Late game tunnels are nearly as key for aliens as gates are for marines... I can't imagine anyone demanding a 25% reduction on gates.
Thanks CDT.
If anything it should have been buffed in the sound department when shaded. Shade is suppose to hide sound when fully upgraded, but the tunnel makes an exit sound that can be heard on the other side of the map. It's ridiculous. A shade at the very least should reduce the exit sound.
Edit - I meant metabolize was nerfed to not make it op. This iPad makes me hate life.
Why is it an issue? Well, in compmod you have 6v6 (1 Skulk/2 Lerks/2 Fades). If Lerks are out of position and only leave 2 Fades and 1 Skulk to grind a gate, it'll take a while to widdle that gate down. Whereas, in public games, there is a possibility of 3 Fades, and still 3 Skulks. Before, that Gate would go down pretty fast but now it's going to go down lightning fast with little to no reaction time available for the Marine team. This change was not thought out for public games, period. It was an attempt to try and standardize some of compmod's (drastic) changes into vanilla, with no thought about faction balance in a public scenario. Again, I am standing by my stance of what I previously posted; It's not: "This is broken, and should be fixed/changed." it's: "You know what'd be a cool idea? X!".
The way this is worded is very insulting. I welcome changes and look forward to good changes. I however, am upset that I and hundreds of other people didn't(and don't) get a single input into these balance changes. They were not transparent, were concealed from the majority population, and then disguised that it's being done out of best interest for the community.
I don't know if you realized this Zefram... but people who don't get any input in major changes on something they use every day are usually... upset.
Next time something major like this is to happen, it needs to be announced and discussed amongst the community. Not shoved down our throats without disregard and stating, "You need to try it first! I'm sure you'll love it!".
EDIT: The CDT has taken a really big step from making great quality-of-life changes to now dictating how the game can be played from their own personalized experiences. Please take a step back and continue making quality-of-life changes/balances rather than drastic overhauls.
EDIT2: Bring for the wave of disagrees...
At the end of the day, the risk became bigger and bigger that comp mod and ns2 vanilla became two different games. Having different tech trees etc was just too much of a difference. So of course something had to be done to bring the two directions back together, at least on the foundations. Now values can always be adjusted etc, but having different tech trees and abilites in pub play and comp play makes not much sense.
Now nobody says balance is perfect, and there will certainly be balance adjustements in the next patch based on the stats and feedback gathered from this patch. But if you could shift the discussion from "i'm against all comp changes!" to something more productive, that would be great. Also, discussion balance changes HOURS after the patch release makes no sense. Let the meta settle down a little and talk about this in a few days.
"I'm against all comp changes!" I don't think anyone (correct me if I'm wrong) has stated that they're 100% against all compmod implementations. There are either unsures, or some content with only certain changes.
Also, it was compmod that moved further away from vanilla gameplay. Why is Vanilla being adjusted when compmod is causing the issue of seperation. We aren't making changes to make Vanilla like CombatMOD... so why should we do compmod?