On the plus side of topic, it does not hurt to have it... And that's pretty much the only good thing I see. From aspect of creating a mod and being creative, go for it
About mechanics itself...
My humble opinion:
No self respecting player would do that to himself for serious/fun play... Might as well make Martyr of Glory (im nerfed, please look at me) or kick yourself ('cause just too awesome button). I for one, would be insulted beyond repair when getting owned by self (righteous) nerfed pro player: didn't learn anything that I would not have learned otherwise and got humiliated in process.
Even if that's not the case, game should not trick people into a false sense of success, security. Handicap already exists: drop a rifle go with pistol or an axe. Dont go lerk/fade/onos. Never get a jetpack/exo. Switch team. And so on. Of all the things one can possibly think of, this is got to be least clever way to do it... Game mechanics should be responsible for that, not someone else who wants to have pity on his enemies...
"Playing it would be like riding bicycle without the seat. Your putting yourself through some unnecessary discomfort while everyone else is looking strangely at you".
I have to agree with the above- There are easier ways to handicap players - using pistol only usually puts the premdivs at about pubber dps level, and has the payoff to the 'handicapped' player of getting to practice their pistol shooting, so it's about as close to a win-win as you're gonna get.
How bout a server mod that lets people vote on disabling the rifle/shotgun and fade/lerk for players who clearly have a huge skill advantage?
(basically all the things that rack up kills on lower-level players - stuff like nades, mines, AA, gorge and onos have more flow-of-game effects which allow a good player to manipulate the flow of the game through more subtle, less rage-inducing effects rather than just preventing the enemy team from staying alive for more than 30 seconds)
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I would much rather do more with the skill system to get players of similar skill together. The icons in the server browser are certainly a great step, so is the force even teams vote. I think brainstorming in that direction makes more sense.
For example, there could be, when you are in the readyroom, some information that tells you which team you should join to balance out the teams. Problem is, usually you can only join one team anyway, because its the team with one player less. But still, its an idea.
Dynamically Altering Health/Damage based on skill:
You shouldn't nerf higher skilled player's damage, or health. They are higher skilled generally because they've gotten the experience to know about how many bullets will kill a certain life form, and how many bites they can take, or the positioning when taking said bites. If you start making all of those numbers dynamic based on how well they stack up against other players who happen to be on a server, then you remove the capability of learning patterns and actually getting better. You just end up with a mindless state.
I can argue the same for new players. There will be no consistency for them when killing others. Sometimes it's 3 bullets, sometimes it's 12. How can they get better with such drastic inconsistencies.
Altering PRes Income:
I could care less about this one. I would suggest not reducing vet players income, but instead only increasing new players. Keep in mind that the new players can just give all their weapons to the vet anyway.
Thoughts on Stacks:
More often than not, I join a game trying to balance a stack. What happens is the random RR or vote force even teams will reshuffle me and put me on the stacked team and I cannot switch to rebalance it again. So ironically, the stomp happens again. We all know the voting even teams is broken.
Veteran only public servers always fail. 20-24 man servers filled with experienced vets generally leads to marine wins, because every lane has 3 marines that know how to play. If there are to be veteran only servers, they have to be 12-14 man... and then they might as well do PUG's or Gathers. The game browser doesn't do the match making, so that leaves it to the reddit community or the ensl community. And since the community isn't large enough to support 24/7 PUGs and Gathers across all time zones, you have bored vets joining the pubs and inevitably stomping.
In my opinion, the only way to achieve what most want in this thread is to remove the server browser altogether, and automate the match-making process with a computer that will force players to play with people of similar skill. But then you create inconsistencies with server mods, player counts, etc. This problem can't be solved when every server is it's own version of the game.
Dynamically Altering Health/Damage based on skill:
You shouldn't nerf higher skilled player's damage, or health. They are higher skilled generally because they've gotten the experience to know about how many bullets will kill a certain life form, and how many bites they can take, or the positioning when taking said bites. If you start making all of those numbers dynamic based on how well they stack up against other players who happen to be on a server, then you remove the capability of learning patterns and actually getting better. You just end up with a mindless state.
I can argue the same for new players. There will be no consistency for them when killing others. Sometimes it's 3 bullets, sometimes it's 12. How can they get better with such drastic inconsistencies.
Altering PRes Income:
I could care less about this one. I would suggest not reducing vet players income, but instead only increasing new players. Keep in mind that the new players can just give all their weapons to the vet anyway.
Thoughts on Stacks:
More often than not, I join a game trying to balance a stack. What happens is the random RR or vote force even teams will reshuffle me and put me on the stacked team and I cannot switch to rebalance it again. So ironically, the stomp happens again. We all know the voting even teams is broken.
Veteran only public servers always fail. 20-24 man servers filled with experienced vets generally leads to marine wins, because every lane has 3 marines that know how to play. If there are to be veteran only servers, they have to be 12-14 man... and then they might as well do PUG's or Gathers. The game browser doesn't do the match making, so that leaves it to the reddit community or the ensl community. And since the community isn't large enough to support 24/7 PUGs and Gathers across all time zones, you have bored vets joining the pubs and inevitably stomping.
In my opinion, the only way to achieve what most want in this thread is to remove the server browser altogether, and automate the match-making process with a computer that will force players to play with people of similar skill. But then you create inconsistencies with server mods, player counts, etc. This problem can't be solved when every server is it's own version of the game.
Generally agree here, except that veteran players, if they ARE playing on these rookie servers, probably aren't doing it for the practice. I wouldn't mind dealing less damage as an experienced player. I'd probably be spending most of my concentration telling the rookie how to command.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You guys need to spend a serious amount of time watching first time players in person.. Because you are grossly over estimating the learning capability of these players!
This may be because you are unable to step outside your own knowledge and capability experience with this game, idk, so it's understandable... But really... The time frame were taking here is sub 4 hours.
Even after 2 hours of playing on the same team these players had yet to evolve with their 100 pres despite the giant orange floating and flashing HUD hint that says press B.... These players are not going to process that the skulk had to bite them 5 times instead of 3, trust me. They usually haven't even grasped the concept yet of resource towers.
As for having your pride hurt : the feeling of being hopelessly behind compared to a vet is going to exist no matter what and is frustrating and defeating. Would you feel the same way if an enemy player gives advice after they kill you? (if so there's no helping you lol) Because that's essentially what this is.. Micro combat training from a vet.
And to the "just use Pistol" crowd : that gets boring fast. I've been doing it for years and I'm done with it. I'd like to just play normally without stomping them.
You guys need to spend a serious amount of time watching first time players in person.. Because you are grossly over estimating the learning capability of these players!
This may be because you are unable to step outside your own knowledge and capability experience with this game, idk, so it's understandable... But really... The time frame were taking here is sub 4 hours.
Even after 2 hours of playing on the same team these players had yet to evolve with their 100 pres despite the giant orange floating and flashing HUD hint that says press B.... These players are not going to process that the skulk had to bite them 5 times instead of 3, trust me. They usually haven't even grasped the concept yet of resource towers.
As for having your pride hurt : the feeling of being hopelessly behind compared to a vet is going to exist no matter what and is frustrating and defeating. Would you feel the same way if an enemy player gives advice after they kill you? (if so there's no helping you lol) Because that's essentially what this is.. Micro combat training from a vet.
And to the "just use Pistol" crowd : that gets boring fast. I've been doing it for years and I'm done with it. I'd like to just play normally without stomping them.
I think its a little more complex then that, some of the people you probably watched play first hand for the first time may not be the kind of players who would actually spend money to buy the game in the first place. Of course the issues they experience are similar, but baring the game going free to play there are certain assumptions that should be made for first time players.
I don't think that random health/damage changes would have any impact on most players under 10 hours, since it is mostly a shoot/bite until someone dies kinda thing... There are probably people with over 100 hours that do not know how many bites or bullets to kill a marine or skulk respectively, that can be attributed to many things other than inexperience.
I think to soften the learning curve as much as possible, the biggest thing needed is a solid tutorial system. And I dont mean the kind of tutorial that has you run around with AI in a scripted sequence, but one that is enabled by default on installation, and walks you through several key basics on each team the first time (or times) that you join that team. The little widgets to buy shotguns from the armory or how to flap as a lerk are good, but it really requires something that both speaks to you, and offers visual instructions. Ideally you would have one for each lifeform, and for the various marine weapons/equipment. Those should also indicate that there is an optional training mode that you can launch from the main menu, which includes additional training on all the classes/weapons, which is much more indepth. I dont suspect that option would be used as much, but having it there may help a player not feel so hopeless when they loose their lerk or fade a bunch of times.
And to the "just use Pistol" crowd : that gets boring fast. I've been doing it for years and I'm done with it. I'd like to just play normally without stomping them.
About that. I had a smile on my face while i was reading the 'only pistol' idea.
The only thing that makes veteran players use more the LMG than the pistol during a competitive game is simple. The game has numerous issues (key config, lag, hit reg etc...) and aliens opponents are more difficult to hit.
But against rookies... Only pistols ? Certified bloodshed -> rookie = vaporized. Many players without any doubts can use pistol as much as LMG. Like in NS1. The pistol is surely a deadly thing (in proper hands).
Just played all three instances of that cat video at once, it got a little freaky.....
Anyway, I can't really see an issue letting rookies get more chances to use weapons/lifeforms if they aren't good enough to use them properly yet.
How else are rookies supposed to learn how not to die if they only get one chance? A simple disclaimer on rookie only servers stating the resource income is adjusted for new players should be fine to prevent people from getting too used to free lifeforms.
And to the "just use Pistol" crowd : that gets boring fast. I've been doing it for years and I'm done with it. I'd like to just play normally without stomping them.
A pistol?! Easy mode! IF these' rookies want to AXE me a question they have to WORK FOR IT!
The only thing that makes veteran players use more the LMG than the pistol during a competitive game is simple. The game has numerous issues (key config, lag, hit reg etc...) and aliens opponents are more difficult to hit.
And here i thought it was because more bullets. They still use pistols LOADS, but for picking off retreating lifeforms. It's reserved for that, really.
I hate this idea, but it might combine some of the things people seem to be asking for here:
give bonus pres for rookies who follow commander orders: building, defending, attacking a target (not move to location due to the obvious and easy abuse that would allow), or for being in a location the khamm has put threat markers down when a marine is killed, for building alien structures as gorge, etc etc.
Honestly, I don't think it's worth the time spent coding it, but what it would achieve is the following:
provides rookies with more pres so they get more chance to play other lifeforms/use other weapons
provides some teaching about the need for teamwork and following commander orders
It has lots of limitations, like requiring a commander who gives orders (especially on the alien side), and I fundamentally disagree that this approach is the way we should be going. I favour rookie only servers (where non rookies may be allowed to command but cannot exit the hive/cc, and where they can also spectate to help out if desired).
ON a plus side, i could see something like this working on rookie enabled servers, the higher your skill level would mean the more handicapped you would be, like for example, lets say the average skill level on the server was the default 1000, a players joins that has 2000 in skill, so that player could then have a 10% cap on -Damage -Pres Gain etc there for it would slightly ease on the rookie stomping and discourage higher skilled players from playing on lower skilled servers, also means that if they choose to play there, they can help the newer players out etc.
But it still wont solve rookie stomping, as am sure groups of players would still join and stomp with or without a handicap, which is sad in itself.
Everything that has been mentioned need a minimum in order to function :
Developments
-In case it's the game itself : Developments which won't happen as there are more pressing matters.
-In case it's a mod it will need the private admin acceptance.
Rookies willing to learn
It is obvious that the 0 hours rookies just don't pay attention to the other menu. The ones tagged with word on it. One of them has the word "Tutorial". They feel really strange about it. Maybe because they have to read. So they go directly to "Server".
The NS2 population (+100 hours) is bound to the game because they usually look for something else than the usual FPS. Many rookies just don't because they just want another shooter.
UWE / CDT
Considering other developed solutions (match making, etc) it would be awkward (maybe foolish) to add to the circus another broken horse. As said before. Pressing matters first.
At this point with the player base I doubt having this feature will have any noticeable change game wide. While I think if you have a few servers with some regulars that end up using it the quality of games may increase slightly on that specific server but beyond that I think its a little too late for something like this now.
I still like the idea though. If its not hard to impalement I don't see how it could hurt things.
I think to soften the learning curve as much as possible, the biggest thing needed is a solid tutorial system. And I dont mean the kind of tutorial that has you run around with AI in a scripted sequence, but one that is enabled by default on installation, and walks you through several key basics on each time the first time (or times) that you join that team. The little widgets to buy shotguns from the armory or how to flap as a lerk are good, but it really requires something that both speaks to you, and offers visual instructions. Ideally you would have one for each lifeform, and for the various marine weapons/equipment. Those should also indicate that there is an optional training mode that you can launch from the main menu, which includes additional training on all the classes/weapons, which is much more indepth. I dont suspect that option would be used as much, but having it there may help a player not feel so hopeless when they loose their lerk or fade a bunch of times.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Also, this just occurred to me, but is it made clear anywhere to rookies that once you evolve into a higher lifeform... you get ONE, ie you won't respawn as that lifeform? Now that I think about it... that might not be immediately clear, as I've seen quite a few rookies treating their fades and lerks just like skulks.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
If I end up playing on field with rookies, I spend all my time with the welder out. I even lead the charge into combat with a welder, it is possible to take down 2 rookie skulks with a welder, 3 is a challenge. And I am really bad at NS2...
It is more than just damage, the bite distance for a skulk is not intuitive, I have been playing since alpha, and even I don't know how far away from a target I need to be to land a bite...
The movement, positioning, and many other things make it a lot to take in for new players. You don't realise how much you have taken in once you've been playing for a while...
Rookies willing to learn
It is obvious that the 0 hours rookies just don't pay attention to the other menu. The ones tagged with word on it. One of them has the word "Tutorial". They feel really strange about it. Maybe because they have to read. So they go directly to "Server".
I really don't understand that mentality. Myself, I would be horribly embarrassed to jump into a server of a game that I have no understanding of, so I ALWAYS look for tutorials, offline modes etc to try and figure out what the hell I'm doing first. This even goes for apparently simple games, I just don't want to take a chance of making a fool of myself. I still end up doing that anyway every time without fail, but at least I try.
In the case of NS2, The first two things I did was look at a couple of the video tutorials and then start up the game in sandbox mode (I don't think it was called that at the time but I can't remember the original name). In that, I cycled through every alien life form trying to figure out what their attacks did. I even got in the command chairs and tried to figure out how the tech tree worked. All of this BEFORE I ever jumped in a single game.
Even after that though, I was still totally lost. I didn't know walljumping to increase movespeed was a thing (and when I heard someone mentioning it I assumed you had to actually climb up the wall). I didn't know Aliens had a map key at all for the first couple rounds. Somehow I ended up spawning in a fade egg and was completely lost as to what to do with that (I thought the fade was supposed to be stealth or something). I also specifically remember joining a game on marines near to the end and completely failing to understand why the fades that were slaughtering us in base could not be killed. Two years and 1000 hours later I still remember my first 4.
Also, this just occurred to me, but is it made clear anywhere to rookies that once you evolve into a higher lifeform... you get ONE, ie you won't respawn as that lifeform? Now that I think about it... that might not be immediately clear, as I've seen quite a few rookies treating their fades and lerks just like skulks.
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
Great observation.
Definitely should be communicated that 'evolving' doesn't necessarily mean you're universally better, just means you fulfill a different role in the game. Emphasis put on the fact that aliens are fragile, even the 'tanky' alien can be quickly slaughtered by just a few marines if the engagement is bad
Explaining the roles of aliens as well as their strengths and weaknesses could definitely be conveyed better.. but they should be able to tell after their first death that evolutions aren't permanent.
A proper tutorial that is FORCED. I don't care what anyone thinks about convenience but most rookies dont care about it, get owned and never come back. Force them to complete a basic tutorial THEN allow them to use the server browser. Following this, expand the current tutorial into advanced gameplay and eventually challenges like reach A-B in X time. Unfortunately, because the AI bots haven't been expanded upon, it's difficult to create tutorials that cover everything this game has to offer.
Which is why that a rookie/casual mode is not a bad idea tbh for new players. Default off for most servers. Rookie friendly servers have it enabled, rename "Rookie Friendly" to "Rookie Mode".
CS:GO uses a rookie mode. Cash is earned much more, intermission times are lowered, you always have armor and everyone on CT has disarming tools. Just a few small changes like this from the vanilla game would be much better than changing certain values like damage and hp.
I propose "Rookie Mode" with just a few examples on what would be good to change imo although bare in mind, it's not a model that even I would consider "balanced, just throwing it out there, this is not 50/50 balance I'm trying to suggest but a mod that would limit the downtime when losing resources:
- Respawn rates are increased by 50%
- PRes costs for items/upgrades/lifeforms lowered overall but not all with resource rates increased maybe 25%
- Welders reduced to 1Pres or even free (maybe spawn with one?)
- Mines reduced to 12Pres, lowering them too much becomes dangerous
- Grenades increased to 6Pres but has 3 grenades in total instead of 2
- Shotgun reduced to 12Pres (cheapest of the options but most difficult to use)
- Grenade Launcher reduced to 18Pres
- Flamethrowers reduced to 15Pres
- Jetpacks reduced to 5 or 10Pres
- Exosuits reduced to 30Pres, dual weapon reduced to 10Pres
- Gorges reduced to 5Pres
- Lerks reduced 18Pres (marines already have +1+1 at the start so wouldn't be too alarming)
- Fades reduced to 25-30Pres
- Onos reduced to 40-45Pres
- Evolve traits reduced overall as well, 2 for lerks 3 for fades and 5 for onos
- Fade Eggs can be dropped at 6 biomass for 60TRes
- Onos Eggs can be dropped at 8 biomass for 80TRes
- Minigun Exosuits can be dropped, requires 3 CCs for 80TRes
- TRes costs for some structures lowered like RTs and IPs, respawning eggs is free
- TRes costs for some structures like Whips and Sentries increased, less PvESelection 2 is better
- Game at the start, both teams have a set amount of prebuilt structures and research already completed
- Aliens have 2 biomass researched, shift hive researched, 3 spurs down near the hive, a drifter, 1 whip and 1 crag
- Marines have arms lab with +1 armor and +1 weapon researched, an extra IP, an observatory and an armory
- When you've invested into resources such as paying for a JP SHOTGUN WELDER, about 38 res in the normal game, if you die then you're refunded 25% of what you lost
Changing the indirect mechanics like res rate and costs and starting tech I think will help the most. Keep people playing the big guns like fades and onos or exosuit, shotguns rather than flashing their lifeform or investment and being back down to rifle marine or skulk for another 15 minutes. I will boldly state that is why so many people can't last long in this game because at least with weapons like GLs or shotguns or fades and onos, they have a shot at killing even a good player with their well earned rest investment. Lowering costs keeps the player playing with higher tech for longer which is a good thing for rookies because atm, at best, they have a glimpse of a new lifeform and then flash and dont get it back for 20 mins.
TL;DR - A mod that favors an early game kickstart, some initial tech given and a few extra structures. This is the catalyst that propells people into a stable game that allows them to get their lifeforms/equipment and tech quickly. It also attempts to fix the problem of downtime, spending less time as a skulk or rifle marine by lowering costs of most upgrades and research. Weapons and lifeforms cost less by a small amount with a slight boost to res rates makes it easier to get back into JP, exos, fades and onos. Doesn't buff or nerf weapon and hp values or even handicapps different players.
I pulled all this together in 15 mins but I think that an NS2 Rookie Mode Mod would be interesting to say the least.
I always considered Combat to be NS2's rookie mode actually.
About the tutorials, the only things that have always bothered me the most is the abscence of really important movement mechanics such as walljumping for skulks and fade movement. There's a tipvid for the walljumping, but it should really be a part of the tutorial. And for the fade, there's absolutely nothing. Not even included in the tutorial, and the only tipvid about fade movement is explaining people they can travel really fast by holding blink. That's a terrible way to teach people about such a costly lifeform that is so dependent on it's energy management. It's not even that hard, tap blink, jump, but there's no way for rookies to figure that out unless by accident or by word of mouth.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2014
We have "rookie only" -, "no rookie"- and "rookie friendly" servers but people dont care where they are playing.
So instead invest some time to fill a server of there skill level people just join the server with a slot free and complaining about too bad and too good players (hackers).
If you dont want to learn in school cause party all day long then dont complain about the unfair system or government later if you dont get the job you want.
It was your choice.
Comments
Need a lot more brainstorming before the idea can even take off.
About mechanics itself...
No self respecting player would do that to himself for serious/fun play... Might as well make Martyr of Glory (im nerfed, please look at me) or kick yourself ('cause just too awesome button). I for one, would be insulted beyond repair when getting owned by self (righteous) nerfed pro player: didn't learn anything that I would not have learned otherwise and got humiliated in process.
Even if that's not the case, game should not trick people into a false sense of success, security. Handicap already exists: drop a rifle go with pistol or an axe. Dont go lerk/fade/onos. Never get a jetpack/exo. Switch team. And so on. Of all the things one can possibly think of, this is got to be least clever way to do it... Game mechanics should be responsible for that, not someone else who wants to have pity on his enemies...
"Playing it would be like riding bicycle without the seat. Your putting yourself through some unnecessary discomfort while everyone else is looking strangely at you".
I'm sorry, I really don't like the idea...
How bout a server mod that lets people vote on disabling the rifle/shotgun and fade/lerk for players who clearly have a huge skill advantage?
(basically all the things that rack up kills on lower-level players - stuff like nades, mines, AA, gorge and onos have more flow-of-game effects which allow a good player to manipulate the flow of the game through more subtle, less rage-inducing effects rather than just preventing the enemy team from staying alive for more than 30 seconds)
For example, there could be, when you are in the readyroom, some information that tells you which team you should join to balance out the teams. Problem is, usually you can only join one team anyway, because its the team with one player less. But still, its an idea.
Dynamically Altering Health/Damage based on skill:
You shouldn't nerf higher skilled player's damage, or health. They are higher skilled generally because they've gotten the experience to know about how many bullets will kill a certain life form, and how many bites they can take, or the positioning when taking said bites. If you start making all of those numbers dynamic based on how well they stack up against other players who happen to be on a server, then you remove the capability of learning patterns and actually getting better. You just end up with a mindless state.
I can argue the same for new players. There will be no consistency for them when killing others. Sometimes it's 3 bullets, sometimes it's 12. How can they get better with such drastic inconsistencies.
Altering PRes Income:
I could care less about this one. I would suggest not reducing vet players income, but instead only increasing new players. Keep in mind that the new players can just give all their weapons to the vet anyway.
Thoughts on Stacks:
More often than not, I join a game trying to balance a stack. What happens is the random RR or vote force even teams will reshuffle me and put me on the stacked team and I cannot switch to rebalance it again. So ironically, the stomp happens again. We all know the voting even teams is broken.
Veteran only public servers always fail. 20-24 man servers filled with experienced vets generally leads to marine wins, because every lane has 3 marines that know how to play. If there are to be veteran only servers, they have to be 12-14 man... and then they might as well do PUG's or Gathers. The game browser doesn't do the match making, so that leaves it to the reddit community or the ensl community. And since the community isn't large enough to support 24/7 PUGs and Gathers across all time zones, you have bored vets joining the pubs and inevitably stomping.
In my opinion, the only way to achieve what most want in this thread is to remove the server browser altogether, and automate the match-making process with a computer that will force players to play with people of similar skill. But then you create inconsistencies with server mods, player counts, etc. This problem can't be solved when every server is it's own version of the game.
Generally agree here, except that veteran players, if they ARE playing on these rookie servers, probably aren't doing it for the practice. I wouldn't mind dealing less damage as an experienced player. I'd probably be spending most of my concentration telling the rookie how to command.
This may be because you are unable to step outside your own knowledge and capability experience with this game, idk, so it's understandable... But really... The time frame were taking here is sub 4 hours.
Even after 2 hours of playing on the same team these players had yet to evolve with their 100 pres despite the giant orange floating and flashing HUD hint that says press B....
These players are not going to process that the skulk had to bite them 5 times instead of 3, trust me. They usually haven't even grasped the concept yet of resource towers.
As for having your pride hurt : the feeling of being hopelessly behind compared to a vet is going to exist no matter what and is frustrating and defeating. Would you feel the same way if an enemy player gives advice after they kill you? (if so there's no helping you lol) Because that's essentially what this is.. Micro combat training from a vet.
And to the "just use Pistol" crowd : that gets boring fast. I've been doing it for years and I'm done with it. I'd like to just play normally without stomping them.
I don't know to whom this is directed.
You, meatmachine, Locklear, vlad etc
Well then you're making quite the assumptions and framing the discussion in a way in which no one else but you could possibly know better.
I don't think that random health/damage changes would have any impact on most players under 10 hours, since it is mostly a shoot/bite until someone dies kinda thing... There are probably people with over 100 hours that do not know how many bites or bullets to kill a marine or skulk respectively, that can be attributed to many things other than inexperience.
I think to soften the learning curve as much as possible, the biggest thing needed is a solid tutorial system. And I dont mean the kind of tutorial that has you run around with AI in a scripted sequence, but one that is enabled by default on installation, and walks you through several key basics on each team the first time (or times) that you join that team. The little widgets to buy shotguns from the armory or how to flap as a lerk are good, but it really requires something that both speaks to you, and offers visual instructions. Ideally you would have one for each lifeform, and for the various marine weapons/equipment. Those should also indicate that there is an optional training mode that you can launch from the main menu, which includes additional training on all the classes/weapons, which is much more indepth. I dont suspect that option would be used as much, but having it there may help a player not feel so hopeless when they loose their lerk or fade a bunch of times.
About that. I had a smile on my face while i was reading the 'only pistol' idea.
The only thing that makes veteran players use more the LMG than the pistol during a competitive game is simple. The game has numerous issues (key config, lag, hit reg etc...) and aliens opponents are more difficult to hit.
But against rookies... Only pistols ? Certified bloodshed -> rookie = vaporized. Many players without any doubts can use pistol as much as LMG. Like in NS1. The pistol is surely a deadly thing (in proper hands).
Anyway, I can't really see an issue letting rookies get more chances to use weapons/lifeforms if they aren't good enough to use them properly yet.
How else are rookies supposed to learn how not to die if they only get one chance? A simple disclaimer on rookie only servers stating the resource income is adjusted for new players should be fine to prevent people from getting too used to free lifeforms.
A pistol?! Easy mode! IF these' rookies want to AXE me a question they have to WORK FOR IT! And here i thought it was because more bullets. They still use pistols LOADS, but for picking off retreating lifeforms. It's reserved for that, really.
give bonus pres for rookies who follow commander orders: building, defending, attacking a target (not move to location due to the obvious and easy abuse that would allow), or for being in a location the khamm has put threat markers down when a marine is killed, for building alien structures as gorge, etc etc.
Honestly, I don't think it's worth the time spent coding it, but what it would achieve is the following:
provides rookies with more pres so they get more chance to play other lifeforms/use other weapons
provides some teaching about the need for teamwork and following commander orders
It has lots of limitations, like requiring a commander who gives orders (especially on the alien side), and I fundamentally disagree that this approach is the way we should be going. I favour rookie only servers (where non rookies may be allowed to command but cannot exit the hive/cc, and where they can also spectate to help out if desired).
But it still wont solve rookie stomping, as am sure groups of players would still join and stomp with or without a handicap, which is sad in itself.
Developments
-In case it's the game itself : Developments which won't happen as there are more pressing matters.
-In case it's a mod it will need the private admin acceptance.
Rookies willing to learn
It is obvious that the 0 hours rookies just don't pay attention to the other menu. The ones tagged with word on it. One of them has the word "Tutorial". They feel really strange about it. Maybe because they have to read. So they go directly to "Server".
The NS2 population (+100 hours) is bound to the game because they usually look for something else than the usual FPS. Many rookies just don't because they just want another shooter.
UWE / CDT
Considering other developed solutions (match making, etc) it would be awkward (maybe foolish) to add to the circus another broken horse. As said before. Pressing matters first.
Pls close this, it's going nowhere.
I still like the idea though. If its not hard to impalement I don't see how it could hurt things.
Dragon wins thread.
It is more than just damage, the bite distance for a skulk is not intuitive, I have been playing since alpha, and even I don't know how far away from a target I need to be to land a bite...
The movement, positioning, and many other things make it a lot to take in for new players. You don't realise how much you have taken in once you've been playing for a while...
I really don't understand that mentality. Myself, I would be horribly embarrassed to jump into a server of a game that I have no understanding of, so I ALWAYS look for tutorials, offline modes etc to try and figure out what the hell I'm doing first. This even goes for apparently simple games, I just don't want to take a chance of making a fool of myself. I still end up doing that anyway every time without fail, but at least I try.
In the case of NS2, The first two things I did was look at a couple of the video tutorials and then start up the game in sandbox mode (I don't think it was called that at the time but I can't remember the original name). In that, I cycled through every alien life form trying to figure out what their attacks did. I even got in the command chairs and tried to figure out how the tech tree worked. All of this BEFORE I ever jumped in a single game.
Even after that though, I was still totally lost. I didn't know walljumping to increase movespeed was a thing (and when I heard someone mentioning it I assumed you had to actually climb up the wall). I didn't know Aliens had a map key at all for the first couple rounds. Somehow I ended up spawning in a fade egg and was completely lost as to what to do with that (I thought the fade was supposed to be stealth or something). I also specifically remember joining a game on marines near to the end and completely failing to understand why the fades that were slaughtering us in base could not be killed. Two years and 1000 hours later I still remember my first 4.
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
Great observation.
Definitely should be communicated that 'evolving' doesn't necessarily mean you're universally better, just means you fulfill a different role in the game. Emphasis put on the fact that aliens are fragile, even the 'tanky' alien can be quickly slaughtered by just a few marines if the engagement is bad
Which is why that a rookie/casual mode is not a bad idea tbh for new players. Default off for most servers. Rookie friendly servers have it enabled, rename "Rookie Friendly" to "Rookie Mode".
CS:GO uses a rookie mode. Cash is earned much more, intermission times are lowered, you always have armor and everyone on CT has disarming tools. Just a few small changes like this from the vanilla game would be much better than changing certain values like damage and hp.
I propose "Rookie Mode" with just a few examples on what would be good to change imo although bare in mind, it's not a model that even I would consider "balanced, just throwing it out there, this is not 50/50 balance I'm trying to suggest but a mod that would limit the downtime when losing resources:
- Respawn rates are increased by 50%
- PRes costs for items/upgrades/lifeforms lowered overall but not all with resource rates increased maybe 25%
- Welders reduced to 1Pres or even free (maybe spawn with one?)
- Mines reduced to 12Pres, lowering them too much becomes dangerous
- Grenades increased to 6Pres but has 3 grenades in total instead of 2
- Shotgun reduced to 12Pres (cheapest of the options but most difficult to use)
- Grenade Launcher reduced to 18Pres
- Flamethrowers reduced to 15Pres
- Jetpacks reduced to 5 or 10Pres
- Exosuits reduced to 30Pres, dual weapon reduced to 10Pres
- Gorges reduced to 5Pres
- Lerks reduced 18Pres (marines already have +1+1 at the start so wouldn't be too alarming)
- Fades reduced to 25-30Pres
- Onos reduced to 40-45Pres
- Evolve traits reduced overall as well, 2 for lerks 3 for fades and 5 for onos
- Fade Eggs can be dropped at 6 biomass for 60TRes
- Onos Eggs can be dropped at 8 biomass for 80TRes
- Minigun Exosuits can be dropped, requires 3 CCs for 80TRes
- TRes costs for some structures lowered like RTs and IPs, respawning eggs is free
- TRes costs for some structures like Whips and Sentries increased, less PvESelection 2 is better
- Game at the start, both teams have a set amount of prebuilt structures and research already completed
- Aliens have 2 biomass researched, shift hive researched, 3 spurs down near the hive, a drifter, 1 whip and 1 crag
- Marines have arms lab with +1 armor and +1 weapon researched, an extra IP, an observatory and an armory
- When you've invested into resources such as paying for a JP SHOTGUN WELDER, about 38 res in the normal game, if you die then you're refunded 25% of what you lost
Changing the indirect mechanics like res rate and costs and starting tech I think will help the most. Keep people playing the big guns like fades and onos or exosuit, shotguns rather than flashing their lifeform or investment and being back down to rifle marine or skulk for another 15 minutes. I will boldly state that is why so many people can't last long in this game because at least with weapons like GLs or shotguns or fades and onos, they have a shot at killing even a good player with their well earned rest investment. Lowering costs keeps the player playing with higher tech for longer which is a good thing for rookies because atm, at best, they have a glimpse of a new lifeform and then flash and dont get it back for 20 mins.
TL;DR - A mod that favors an early game kickstart, some initial tech given and a few extra structures. This is the catalyst that propells people into a stable game that allows them to get their lifeforms/equipment and tech quickly. It also attempts to fix the problem of downtime, spending less time as a skulk or rifle marine by lowering costs of most upgrades and research. Weapons and lifeforms cost less by a small amount with a slight boost to res rates makes it easier to get back into JP, exos, fades and onos. Doesn't buff or nerf weapon and hp values or even handicapps different players.
I pulled all this together in 15 mins but I think that an NS2 Rookie Mode Mod would be interesting to say the least.
About the tutorials, the only things that have always bothered me the most is the abscence of really important movement mechanics such as walljumping for skulks and fade movement. There's a tipvid for the walljumping, but it should really be a part of the tutorial. And for the fade, there's absolutely nothing. Not even included in the tutorial, and the only tipvid about fade movement is explaining people they can travel really fast by holding blink. That's a terrible way to teach people about such a costly lifeform that is so dependent on it's energy management. It's not even that hard, tap blink, jump, but there's no way for rookies to figure that out unless by accident or by word of mouth.
So instead invest some time to fill a server of there skill level people just join the server with a slot free and complaining about too bad and too good players (hackers).
If you dont want to learn in school cause party all day long then dont complain about the unfair system or government later if you dont get the job you want.
It was your choice.