Im just curious, does anyone think that my idea of gl's bouncing of lifeforms is good or bad?
Also maybe have the nades themselves have a small light or something.
I think it's a bad idea since then it will be almost impossible to kill lifeforms with it (on purpose).
I think that's the point.
then what's the point of GL? Flame and arcs are anti structure. Shotgun and GL are area anti-personnel weapons.
Flame kills cysts and hurts and nullifies chamber abilities. Arcs are slow-moving siege units that don't need LOS. Gls are supposed to be an anti-structure weapon. Of course, they have to hurt other things. Flamethrowers are more or less for team-support. GLS need support to kill structures. Shotguns are not "area" anti-personnel weapons. If you say that then you can argue to the point where the pistol is area anti personnel weapons.
Basically, GLS were made to be anti-structure but they are so ninja-y, skilless, and do so much DMG to players that they have become "area anti-personnel".
I see lots of issues with the grenade launcher. Grenades are hard to dodge and move unpredictably, they deal large damage over an area, they're difficult to use in an intentional way, and they scale in ways that are frustrating to play against. In larger games, they're a complete mess, with explosions everywhere and players being killed by grenades that weren't even fired at them. In smaller games, they're not all that useful because they make a player so much less effective in combat, even if he is dealing structure damage; compare that to another shotgun on the field and it's an easy choice.
I think this weapon can be improved at all skill levels with two changes:
First, the grenade launcher should only deal structure damage. This makes it fill a role similar to ARCs, but without the ability to sit safely behind a wall and force the aliens to initiate an engagement away from the hive. Compared to ARCs, this gives the aliens the defender's advantage instead of the marines, but gives marines increased mobility and greater ease of clearing PvE in areas other than the hive. It also addresses most of the unenjoyable aspects of playing against the weapon; even against an onslaught of grenades, aliens can still do something and don't randomly die.
Second (and hear me out, please!), I'd make the GL an LMG attachmentlike it was during alpha. With GLs doing exclusively structure damage, those marines would need some way of defending themselves, and the LMG solves this really well. The shotgun is currently the obvious purchase for marines, as it allows them to deal significant burst damage against lifeforms and structures at a close range. The LMG/GL combo would allow a marine to deal decent damage to lifeforms and structures at far range, filling a similar role that is still clear and distinct. It makes the weapon more viable in more situations, giving marines more options and potentially ending the full shotgun monopoly we tend to see in smaller games. I also think it'd be a better weapon for new players this way, as it's so similar to a weapon they're already used to while having extra functionality that allows them to be useful in hive pushes.
Admittedly, I wasn't around when the LMG/GL was in the game, but I've seen videos and talked to people who were. My understanding is that it was seen as an obvious purchase for players with no downsides compared to the stock LMG, so it was removed. However, marines largely have one tech path for weapons now, and that's shotguns, so I think an alternative should be pretty welcomed. As for details, I'd probably make the LMG/GL combo cost 15 personal resources, would keep it on the AA, would make the attachment not reload automatically after firing, and would change the grenade explosions to look similar to arc blasts.
I love good discussion, so if you do or don't like this, post and say why!
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Problem with that is that its counter-intuitive to have nades do no personal damage.
Yes if a rogue nade hits a alien I expect it to explode in its face.
So dont get me wrong, I like the idea.. but then how about lowering (significantly) the player damage instead of full removing up. Keep the structure damage.
This would make it still a bit more valueble vs personal then a lone rifle but strongly shows that you are supposed to use it on structures.
That's certainly a valid concern, but I think ARCs are similarly counter-intuitive; when I started, it took me a while to realize that they only damage structures, and I actually am still a little confused by whether they target things like cysts. Making the behaviors and explosion effects similar would probably help players figure out one from the other. Furthermore, if the only reason for player damage is to fit within players' initial expectations, then it sounds like that damage amount would be very small to avoid grenade spam being a problem, and I would think that new players might see that damage and think it's effective, like a fade swiping down a healthy RT. When people are learning what everything does, targets to prioritize, and the use cases of each weapon, I don't think a sonic grenade launcher is going to trip them up significantly. That said, I'd be curious to hear if others see that as a problem.
I also argue that NS2 is home to substantially less-intuitive features, as I suspect anyone who's seen a newbie lerk or fade can attest!
If a game has a properly designed skill curve, do you still need "foo" mechanics like a noobtube?
Answer: You don't.
Having seen the video in question, I disagree.
Whether the GL is supposed to fill that role is up for debate; if it is, it doesn't work too well. One might even go as far and say part of the reason NS2 has such a hard time retaining players is because it lacks a proper "foo" mechanic.
If a game has a properly designed skill curve, do you still need "foo" mechanics like a noobtube?
Answer: You don't.
Having seen the video in question, I disagree.
Whether the GL is supposed to fill that role is up for debate; if it is, it doesn't work too well. One might even go as far and say part of the reason NS2 has such a hard time retaining players is because it lacks a proper "foo" mechanic.
It's part of the reason...maybe. A lot of games don't really have "foo" mechanics yet are quite successful and the games that do are usually symmetrical in design and balance and focus on a casual audience like CoD or BF. Biggest problem I'd wager for NS2 in retaining players is misinformation and a lack of control for rookies but the whole retaining topic has been discussed to death and this isn't the thread for it.
If a game has a properly designed skill curve, do you still need "foo" mechanics like a noobtube?
Answer: You don't.
Having seen the video in question, I disagree.
Whether the GL is supposed to fill that role is up for debate; if it is, it doesn't work too well. One might even go as far and say part of the reason NS2 has such a hard time retaining players is because it lacks a proper "foo" mechanic.
I think Shotguns and Pulse Grenades can be considered to be "FOOS": both can enable the average marine to kill Skulks in one or two hits at low costs. Mines can also often guarantee a few kills, but at significant costs and require experience to place properly.
Aliens are somewhat lacking an "easy mode" tool/weapon. The Gorge is cheap, but differs very drastically to the Skulk, and requires a completely different mindset to play effectively; The Lerk shares more similarities with the Skulk than the Gorge, but is not very sustainable as marine weapons (which can be reused), and a lot less expandable than the Skulk.
I see a potential for an optional early game Skulk personal upgrade (purchased with Pres)...
One might even go as far and say part of the reason NS2 has such a hard time retaining players is because it lacks a proper "foo" mechanic.
See, that's the problem, people focus on the fact that the noob tubes of the world have existed and saved certain games - when instead they should be focusing on why it was needed it in the first place!
If you watch the beginning of that "Extra credits" video again, before he talks about Street Fighter's E.Honda cheese move, he clearly explains that a good way to balance for skill is to provide higher power to the lower skills...
This is a flawed design and is stupid to spread such misinformation. (Like i said, great show but they don't always get it right, same with the poker /chess video on skill ceilings)
If that design were truly taken to heart and implemented in every game mechanic as he recommends then there would be a deceivingly low skill ceiling, where improving your skills yields less impact and power on the battlefield. Where the grandmaster has just as much chance of winning as the rookie, as a result.
Essentially if you take this route far enough it becomes akin to flipping a coin and is the exact opposite of what is considered as a "Skillful" game, because your skill simply doesn't mean much.
Compare this to something that is timelessly considered one of the most skillful games, Chess - where the grandmaster stomps the rookie 10/10 times.
Now, this doesn't mean that rookies are doomed in game design forever. The solution is the skill curve that is implemented.
You see, if the player can quickly and intuitively relate their increase in skill / ability to the power and impact on the field.. then:
They are taught how to properly play
They learn how to play in a much faster rate
There is a greater amount of player retention due to lack of frustration from being stomped, and they can now see exactly where to improve when this does occur
There is less of a perceived gap between rookie and veteran
There is no need for unnecessary band aid "foo" / noob trap mechanics that just frustrate the rest of the playerbase by introducing what is essentially handicaps. (F off supply crates!)
It needs be said also that the design should be constantly rewarding your time as you progress, to provide depth and an incentive to improve yourself constantly, but needs to do so in an incredibly subtle way so as not to provide an infinite vacuum of a skill ceiling that seems unreachable to the new player.
Why do the grenades even bounce that much? I mean, they are surely not made of rubber, right? They are fairly compact metal chunks. Have you ever tried throwing one of these against a wall?
If it's a solid hunk off metal it could be quite bouncy.
Why do the grenades even bounce that much? I mean, they are surely not made of rubber, right? They are fairly compact metal chunks. Have you ever tried throwing one of these against a wall?
If it's a solid hunk off metal it could be quite bouncy.
Aye, but a grenade's got some stuff inside it that's rather volatile. From what everyone here has said I think the following changes would be a good idea:
25% reduction in player damage across the board
10-20% Larger AoE damage radius (but please no large explosion animation that blocks view overmuch)
Either considerably less bouncing (barely any) or Explode on contact
Slightly reduced Rate of Fire (Allows structures to heal if they have crags or gorges, but not reduced to the point where a single GL cannot out DPS a crag and a gorge, if that's even possible now)
In Theory this would have the following effects:
Against Structures, It would deal more damage to structures closer together.
Blast radius would also make it hit more structures at once, though not necessarily effectively.
Reduced rate of fire would have the negligable effect of a structure nest being able to last slightly longer with healing, enough for a quick alien team to have a chance at defending against a rush.
Against Players
FF AoE would make it less likely to spam at your feet (or close to you) and be able to get away with it.
Reduced Damage makes it less likely to pose a considerable threat unless in extreme numbers. But in reasonable circumstances it'll make you less likely to die to a GL.
Increased AoE would make GL become an Area Denial weapon of sorts. Dealing moderate damage to lifeforms as they try to come through a door, or hallway.
However, reduced RoF would make it impossible to coat a doorway or hallway in explosions for a short time, enabling Aliens a chance to slip through mostly unscathed (if they time it right).
Overall Effects:
Less effective as a Kill everything weapon and more of a support (denial) and structure damage (AoE) weapon.
So this one time, I blink into a hallway with only two marines...a GLer and a LMGer. The players were on the bottom half of the scoreboard. Easy kills right?
Let me tell you what happened. GLer fires one shot misses, I'm in melee range now. Take minimal damage from the lmg < 80. Get a swipe off. Second shot from the GL direct hit. I am now low hp. No armor < 200 life. I turn around and blink out of the engagement. The grenade that he first fired at me and missed, is still lying on the ground..it blows up...I am passing by it while I'm blinking away. Dies....top fade on alien team dead...no res to re fade.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you can throw mines like ninja stars at people. Balanced..
And since u decided to take a story I told to show the ridiculousness of GL and make a satire of it. Please tell me what I did wrong in that situation? The moment I got low, I blinked away. I didn't overextend, get greedy, or get pinched.
In hindsight you could say I shouldn't have engaged in the first place, or gone from behind.
P.s. If you replace the word gl (anti structure), with shotgun (anti lifeform) in that story..I wouldn't have died. Ironic?
I don't have much of a problem as lerk against Gls, although what is pretty effective is when the Gl guy is just spamming grenades at someones feet, as a skulk not much I can do. In my opinion what really makes the Gl powerful is its bounce and blowing up on direct hit, as well as the ability to spam grenades. I don't use the Gl much but when I do its useally with a Jp to take out a hive, preferably in a large room (cargo, crossroads, cave) In my opinion, once think to make it less effective but still useable against lifeforms would be to lower the firerate.
On the topic of explosives, I feel how they are implemented at the moment grenades are underpowerd, but I feel their effect is fine in power.
It just having to take them out then throw them, no matter how quick it is, I think it would be better if maybe they were implemented like an underbarrel grenade launcher, alowing you to react more quickly to an oppertunity to use one.
It would allow you try and nail a skulks, hit a retreating lifeform, hit a charging lifeform, lay down nerve gas over you while still being able to shoot the coming lifeform, It just gives more uses to it rather then using them to clear vents or a gorge fort.
The way to balance out having a pretty powerful tool is that in order to get a grenade launcher you would need an advanced armoury. If grenades are researhed, when you purchase grenades advanced armoury, you choose your grenade as usual, and then it takes you to a second menu with hand grenade (has same image) or underbarrel ( shows a grenade launcher on LMG) You may only buy grenades with the underbarrel grenade launcher with LMG, if you have any other weapon equipped you automaticly get hand grenades.
The underbarrel launcher functions in that left click is Lmg as usual, and instead of rifle bash right click fires the gl. After firing the Gl wont reload untill you press right click again, to prevent you from unwantingly reloading when you want to shoot your rifle. You only have 2 shots, one already loaded and one to reload into. You may NOT get free ones by resupplying, you have to rebuy them but you dont have to pay for getting the launcher as your rifle already has one.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you can throw mines like ninja stars at people. Balanced..
And since u decided to take a story I told to show the ridiculousness of GL and make a satire of it. Please tell me what I did wrong in that situation? The moment I got low, I blinked away. I didn't overextend, get greedy, or get pinched.
In hindsight you could say I shouldn't have engaged in the first place, or gone from behind.
P.s. If you replace the word gl (anti structure), with shotgun (anti lifeform) in that story..I wouldn't have died. Ironic?
His point was that anecdotal arguments make no evidence.
I'm not a fade player - at all -, but I think fades usually blink upwards first/after an attack, to throw off marines' aim, which would probably have saved you from the grenade in this case.
We had a muck about with comp mod grenade launchers the other night.
You think vanilla GLs are bad? They are. Just wait until you see the current iteration of the comp mod GL though!!! Dear god that thing is ridiculous! Fades, lerks - all popping left and right. Phase gates are now a no-go zone for any lifeform because you WILL die if 1 or 2 GL marines phase through. Which they will, because it's funny as all hell GLing a comp fade or lerk, and so ridiculously easy to do.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I for one would like to see the GL attachment make a return, it would allow me to try a different style rather than the cookie cutter...
LMG which sacrifices power for range, which is low risk, mild reward.
or
Shotgun which uses 20 PRES to sacrifice range for power, which is high risk, high reward
or
Grenade Launcher which uses 20 PRES to sacrifice utility for power, which is also high risk, high reward
or
Flamethrower which uses 25 PRES to sacrifice power for utility, mild risk, mild reward (Doesn't really make sense to me, IMO)
a proposed GL attachment keeps range, sacrifices resources for mild additional power, low risk, mild reward, be it 10-20 PRES?
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This would open up a versatile play style being somewhere between the survivability of a LMG (because you can position yourself better and take advantage of range) and the some power from the GL for a more affordable cost.
It should have a magazine of 1 shot per reload, thus (unless used in large groups) won't be too spammy, behaves much like the GL attachments you see in many modern shooters.
This would allow players to use their existing LMG skills to defend themselves, but also be able to do some tactical moderate damage to take down a gorge wall / tunnel / Ninja kill a RT if left unchecked, again it will not shoot as fast as the existing GL.
Aside:
I personally find it silly to have to spill so many clips of LMG ammo to kill a Harvester rapidly enough, especially when supported by extra cysts, crags, gorge tunnels, in which case I am totally screwed to defend against a responding alien. Unless I keep ammo in reserve (use axe which is pretty slow) / get more support from commander. An alien rarely has to worry about running out of energy when munching on a RT and waiting for marine response. again marines don't get this upgrade for free, so there's that payoff.
I'm sure many of you have been in the situation where you get the easy ambush on a gorge, but if you even miss a few bullets while he jumps around or weaves through the (somewhat stupid) hit boxes of structures/walls/whips/hydras he can get away while healing and/or possibility kill you instead.
Having that "opener" burst damage mid-game could be the versatility build I've always been looking for.
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Additional Brainstorm Ideas:
- Perhaps also make it shoot the type of hand grenade you have to allow further and faster impact delivery method?
- Perhaps make it not a PRES purchase, but perhaps a TRES permanent upgrade much like the NS1 hand grenades?
- Combination of the above?
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TL;DR:
I'm sure some will disagree with this, but I simply want to see some new gameplay. The shotgun is great and all but really it's counter intuitive to the while "marines use range, aliens use melee" thing. While I don't think there is a problem with the GL, but to hopefully satisfy that demand, this could result in possibility less GL spam if done right and I feel that with all the things a Marine can equip, they don't feel all that versatile currently.
- Since it only shoots once before reload, there was a lot less of a "spammy" feeling to the grenades.
2) Less Shotguns
- The GL attachment made eliminated the shotgun as the ultimate weapon for all scenarios, meaning overall less Shotguns (less instant death skulks/lerks longer duels with fades)
While it was very powerful to have an LMG and a GL, overall I think it played better as far as variety went. And since it only would fire one grenade, its damage wouldn't really be much of an issue anymore as there would be much less grenades on the field.
Having the attachment fire the hand grenades sounds interesting, but I think they should be kept separate. Extra range on Nerve Gas or Cluster nades could become OP.
The grenade that he first fired at me and missed, is still lying on the ground..it blows up...I am passing by it while I'm blinking away. Dies....top fade on alien team dead...no res to re fade.
Balanced right?
Sorry, I don't mean the following analysis of your story to sound patronizing @KungFuJV
Yes it is balanced, because you should have known that GL shot was in your return path, of course if you didn't notice or pay attention to the missed GL, you simply activated that GL'ers trap card, and you lost. Even if you lost your Fade, it's a casualty of war, keep fighting, the game doesn't stop because you lost your favourite life form.
You could always contribute greatly as a skulk, and if your team's success was hanging by a thread that is your Fade, then there is clearly balance issues in that game, and you could have made actions to mitigate risk, by grouping with skulks and pack playing.
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Take this scenario, let's leave the marines and GL's out of this for a moment. The Crusher in Mineshaft, you want to go through the crusher's vent. You didn't witness the last time it slammed down. Do you go in and risk getting squashed because you wanted to get somewhere a bit faster? or do you wait for it to slam down to confirm safety to travel. You know it will crush in fixed intervals, it's only a few seconds, common sense man.
In your story/scenario @KungFuJV, there are a few extra though processes you could have done that would have left you on top, where's what I would have done.
A) I fly in, GLer takes his missed shot as you stated. I would have added a mental note of the missed GL, identified which player is the GL player, done a passing swipe (still traveling, not stopping to get shot by the GL) at the LMG marine (GL marine takes his second shot which should miss as I'm still moving), then I get out a different route that I know they will not be watching and that does not put me into the harm of other marines. Using this information I return later from a different path after the heat has gone down, theres the possibility I'll get pinched later as I want to fight battles I can win alone, otherwise I bring friends.
Same scenario, but assuming I have the luxury of backing out for a moment until the "heat" has gone down. The marines guard to reload, I head back in when they lease expect it and test the waters again. But this time focusing on wasting the GL'ers ammo, the LMG marine still weak from my first pass should go down in a few more hits, again attacking LMGer, focusing on GLer to be on cooldown.
Shooting hand grenades is not a good idea, though, I think. You can already throw them pretty far, and from a purely technical perspective, i don't know how they would fit into a grenade launcher (animation wise). Simply going with the normal grenade launcher ammo seems better to me.
Having it as a permanent TRES upgrade would reintroduce the problem of "everyone gets a free grenade"-spam. Having it as a comparably cheap personal upgrade next to shotgun, GL etc. fits better, I think.
Shooting hand grenades is not a good idea, though, I think. You can already throw them pretty far, and from a purely technical perspective, i don't know how they would fit into a grenade launcher (animation wise). Simply going with the normal grenade launcher ammo seems better to me.
Having it as a permanent TRES upgrade would reintroduce the problem of "everyone gets a free grenade"-spam. Having it as a comparably cheap personal upgrade next to shotgun, GL etc. fits better, I think.
I like hand grenades instead of normal ones for more variety, theres already a gl that shoots plain he, cluster and gas grenades allow for more tactical options.
Also the point of the underbarrel launcher isn't to make it more accurate or go further, its to allow you to fire and start shooting your lmg right away, not see a skulk, take out nerve gas, throw nerve gas, take out rifle, start shooting, that takes to long I feel in a fast passed game, and I dont feel they can be used well in the middle of combat.
@F0rdPrefect yeah I wasn't trying to use it as a end all, be all argument..I was just telling a tale of a situation where gl spamming from a player of lesser skill managed to kill a player with higher skill. Especially in a game where personal skill level makes a HUGE difference between players.
@It's Super Effective! yeah. I have thought it out thoroughly on what I couldve done differently. I don't want to get into it and derail the thread further..but some of the things you said were true and some doesn't apply to that specific situation.
However I just want to make clear that in my mind, after he missed the first shot it didn't seem.....reasonable.... that AFTER he direct hit me with the GL, the first grenade would still be undetonated and bouncing around..keep in mind this all happened in < 3 seconds
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
If we changed the GL to be limited to shooting 1 per reload, and made it an underslung attachment should satisfy the "nerf GL" component. Making GL's more useful as a trade off as making it complimentary to a versatile style would make it more useful rather than nerfing it into the ground and having it even more underused.
The other alternative would simply to remove the grenade from detonating on impact on players (mild nerf). However getting killed from the splash? Too bad IMO, it's a Grenade Launcher, that's what it does by definition.
The same with onos - it's pretty easy to get frags, but a skilled onos will never be as effective as a skilled lerk.
Lerk: The new turtle-breaker endgame lifeform.
Yeah, it's true that an early lerk probably has more impact on the game that a late Onos - but I don't think you can compare those two like that, they are just too different
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you can throw mines like ninja stars at people. Balanced..
And since u decided to take a story I told to show the ridiculousness of GL and make a satire of it. Please tell me what I did wrong in that situation? The moment I got low, I blinked away. I didn't overextend, get greedy, or get pinched.
In hindsight you could say I shouldn't have engaged in the first place, or gone from behind.
P.s. If you replace the word gl (anti structure), with shotgun (anti lifeform) in that story..I wouldn't have died. Ironic?
Yes, GL spam is a low-skill mechanic, and it can be frustrating to lose a lifeform is such a manner, but the thing is, 9 times out of 10, you're still gonna do better off facing a GL marine than a shotgun marine in an engagement. You just happend to be unlucky. So, anectodal evidence of how you once lost your fade to GL doesn't mean much.
In any case, if people really want to tone down the playerdamage from GLs, consider making it a secondary weapon as a replacement for the pistol, and tweak some of the numbers to not make it OP.
Right, I was using that as a extreme case of where gl is ridiculous. I guess I should've toned it down and started somewhere more relatable.
On that note. The overall point that I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) was that if something isnt going to be done about toning down player damage, that something should be tweaked about how the grenades work when bouncing around.
What basically happens when I see most glers getting engaged by a lifeform is that they shoot all over the place with the GL. lets say they all miss...at the current iteration literally any hallway instantly becomes a death trap because 4 explosions are about to go off consecutively and unless you have eagle vision you have no idea where the grenades are. You can imagine what it's like when 2-4 players are doing this the moment a fade flys into the room.
Now this is the problem I was trying to convey earlier because literally every entrance/exit out of tech points are tight hallways.
Tldr: IMO if people are adamant on keeping player damage the way it is(I'm not) than they should at the very LEAST add something like highlighted grenades.
People are complaining about a weapon with 4 bullets and an eternity to reload? Seriously? I agree that the hitbox for the nades might be a little too big, but it's a lot better than shooting someone in the face and it bouncing off (it happened before and nobody would buy it that's why it was 15 res). If you have trouble killing a GL 1v1 as any lifeform other than gorge, sorry but you need to L2P. GL + another marine is formidable and needs teamwork.
As far as complaining about GL spam, what about adding some other weapons marines can spend their pres on? Flamer is suicide without a jp it does crap damage and takes like 20 seconds of aiming at a SKULK to kill and if you miss once it just runs off... Shotty you gotta be in your face which with anything other than a skulk or gorge results in death 50% of the time. GL is actually the only long range weapon besides pistol LMG. How about a mini railgun or sniper? Something actually long range.
Comments
Flame kills cysts and hurts and nullifies chamber abilities. Arcs are slow-moving siege units that don't need LOS. Gls are supposed to be an anti-structure weapon. Of course, they have to hurt other things. Flamethrowers are more or less for team-support. GLS need support to kill structures. Shotguns are not "area" anti-personnel weapons. If you say that then you can argue to the point where the pistol is area anti personnel weapons.
Basically, GLS were made to be anti-structure but they are so ninja-y, skilless, and do so much DMG to players that they have become "area anti-personnel".
I think this weapon can be improved at all skill levels with two changes:
First, the grenade launcher should only deal structure damage. This makes it fill a role similar to ARCs, but without the ability to sit safely behind a wall and force the aliens to initiate an engagement away from the hive. Compared to ARCs, this gives the aliens the defender's advantage instead of the marines, but gives marines increased mobility and greater ease of clearing PvE in areas other than the hive. It also addresses most of the unenjoyable aspects of playing against the weapon; even against an onslaught of grenades, aliens can still do something and don't randomly die.
Second (and hear me out, please!), I'd make the GL an LMG attachment like it was during alpha. With GLs doing exclusively structure damage, those marines would need some way of defending themselves, and the LMG solves this really well. The shotgun is currently the obvious purchase for marines, as it allows them to deal significant burst damage against lifeforms and structures at a close range. The LMG/GL combo would allow a marine to deal decent damage to lifeforms and structures at far range, filling a similar role that is still clear and distinct. It makes the weapon more viable in more situations, giving marines more options and potentially ending the full shotgun monopoly we tend to see in smaller games. I also think it'd be a better weapon for new players this way, as it's so similar to a weapon they're already used to while having extra functionality that allows them to be useful in hive pushes.
Admittedly, I wasn't around when the LMG/GL was in the game, but I've seen videos and talked to people who were. My understanding is that it was seen as an obvious purchase for players with no downsides compared to the stock LMG, so it was removed. However, marines largely have one tech path for weapons now, and that's shotguns, so I think an alternative should be pretty welcomed. As for details, I'd probably make the LMG/GL combo cost 15 personal resources, would keep it on the AA, would make the attachment not reload automatically after firing, and would change the grenade explosions to look similar to arc blasts.
I love good discussion, so if you do or don't like this, post and say why!
Yes if a rogue nade hits a alien I expect it to explode in its face.
So dont get me wrong, I like the idea.. but then how about lowering (significantly) the player damage instead of full removing up. Keep the structure damage.
This would make it still a bit more valueble vs personal then a lone rifle but strongly shows that you are supposed to use it on structures.
I also argue that NS2 is home to substantially less-intuitive features, as I suspect anyone who's seen a newbie lerk or fade can attest!
Having seen the video in question, I disagree.
Whether the GL is supposed to fill that role is up for debate; if it is, it doesn't work too well. One might even go as far and say part of the reason NS2 has such a hard time retaining players is because it lacks a proper "foo" mechanic.
It's part of the reason...maybe. A lot of games don't really have "foo" mechanics yet are quite successful and the games that do are usually symmetrical in design and balance and focus on a casual audience like CoD or BF. Biggest problem I'd wager for NS2 in retaining players is misinformation and a lack of control for rookies but the whole retaining topic has been discussed to death and this isn't the thread for it.
I think Shotguns and Pulse Grenades can be considered to be "FOOS": both can enable the average marine to kill Skulks in one or two hits at low costs. Mines can also often guarantee a few kills, but at significant costs and require experience to place properly.
Aliens are somewhat lacking an "easy mode" tool/weapon. The Gorge is cheap, but differs very drastically to the Skulk, and requires a completely different mindset to play effectively; The Lerk shares more similarities with the Skulk than the Gorge, but is not very sustainable as marine weapons (which can be reused), and a lot less expandable than the Skulk.
I see a potential for an optional early game Skulk personal upgrade (purchased with Pres)...
If you watch the beginning of that "Extra credits" video again, before he talks about Street Fighter's E.Honda cheese move, he clearly explains that a good way to balance for skill is to provide higher power to the lower skills...
This is a flawed design and is stupid to spread such misinformation. (Like i said, great show but they don't always get it right, same with the poker /chess video on skill ceilings)
If that design were truly taken to heart and implemented in every game mechanic as he recommends then there would be a deceivingly low skill ceiling, where improving your skills yields less impact and power on the battlefield. Where the grandmaster has just as much chance of winning as the rookie, as a result.
Essentially if you take this route far enough it becomes akin to flipping a coin and is the exact opposite of what is considered as a "Skillful" game, because your skill simply doesn't mean much.
Compare this to something that is timelessly considered one of the most skillful games, Chess - where the grandmaster stomps the rookie 10/10 times.
Now, this doesn't mean that rookies are doomed in game design forever. The solution is the skill curve that is implemented.
You see, if the player can quickly and intuitively relate their increase in skill / ability to the power and impact on the field.. then:
It needs be said also that the design should be constantly rewarding your time as you progress, to provide depth and an incentive to improve yourself constantly, but needs to do so in an incredibly subtle way so as not to provide an infinite vacuum of a skill ceiling that seems unreachable to the new player.
If it's a solid hunk off metal it could be quite bouncy.
25% reduction in player damage across the board
10-20% Larger AoE damage radius (but please no large explosion animation that blocks view overmuch)
Either considerably less bouncing (barely any) or Explode on contact
Slightly reduced Rate of Fire (Allows structures to heal if they have crags or gorges, but not reduced to the point where a single GL cannot out DPS a crag and a gorge, if that's even possible now)
In Theory this would have the following effects:
Against Structures, It would deal more damage to structures closer together.
Blast radius would also make it hit more structures at once, though not necessarily effectively.
Reduced rate of fire would have the negligable effect of a structure nest being able to last slightly longer with healing, enough for a quick alien team to have a chance at defending against a rush.
Against Players
FF AoE would make it less likely to spam at your feet (or close to you) and be able to get away with it.
Reduced Damage makes it less likely to pose a considerable threat unless in extreme numbers. But in reasonable circumstances it'll make you less likely to die to a GL.
Increased AoE would make GL become an Area Denial weapon of sorts. Dealing moderate damage to lifeforms as they try to come through a door, or hallway.
However, reduced RoF would make it impossible to coat a doorway or hallway in explosions for a short time, enabling Aliens a chance to slip through mostly unscathed (if they time it right).
Overall Effects:
Less effective as a Kill everything weapon and more of a support (denial) and structure damage (AoE) weapon.
So this one time, I blink into a hallway with only two marines...a GLer and a LMGer. The players were on the bottom half of the scoreboard. Easy kills right?
Let me tell you what happened. GLer fires one shot misses, I'm in melee range now. Take minimal damage from the lmg < 80. Get a swipe off. Second shot from the GL direct hit. I am now low hp. No armor < 200 life. I turn around and blink out of the engagement. The grenade that he first fired at me and missed, is still lying on the ground..it blows up...I am passing by it while I'm blinking away. Dies....top fade on alien team dead...no res to re fade.
Balanced right?
And since u decided to take a story I told to show the ridiculousness of GL and make a satire of it. Please tell me what I did wrong in that situation? The moment I got low, I blinked away. I didn't overextend, get greedy, or get pinched.
In hindsight you could say I shouldn't have engaged in the first place, or gone from behind.
P.s. If you replace the word gl (anti structure), with shotgun (anti lifeform) in that story..I wouldn't have died. Ironic?
On the topic of explosives, I feel how they are implemented at the moment grenades are underpowerd, but I feel their effect is fine in power.
It just having to take them out then throw them, no matter how quick it is, I think it would be better if maybe they were implemented like an underbarrel grenade launcher, alowing you to react more quickly to an oppertunity to use one.
It would allow you try and nail a skulks, hit a retreating lifeform, hit a charging lifeform, lay down nerve gas over you while still being able to shoot the coming lifeform, It just gives more uses to it rather then using them to clear vents or a gorge fort.
The way to balance out having a pretty powerful tool is that in order to get a grenade launcher you would need an advanced armoury. If grenades are researhed, when you purchase grenades advanced armoury, you choose your grenade as usual, and then it takes you to a second menu with hand grenade (has same image) or underbarrel ( shows a grenade launcher on LMG) You may only buy grenades with the underbarrel grenade launcher with LMG, if you have any other weapon equipped you automaticly get hand grenades.
The underbarrel launcher functions in that left click is Lmg as usual, and instead of rifle bash right click fires the gl. After firing the Gl wont reload untill you press right click again, to prevent you from unwantingly reloading when you want to shoot your rifle. You only have 2 shots, one already loaded and one to reload into. You may NOT get free ones by resupplying, you have to rebuy them but you dont have to pay for getting the launcher as your rifle already has one.
His point was that anecdotal arguments make no evidence.
I'm not a fade player - at all -, but I think fades usually blink upwards first/after an attack, to throw off marines' aim, which would probably have saved you from the grenade in this case.
You think vanilla GLs are bad? They are. Just wait until you see the current iteration of the comp mod GL though!!! Dear god that thing is ridiculous! Fades, lerks - all popping left and right. Phase gates are now a no-go zone for any lifeform because you WILL die if 1 or 2 GL marines phase through. Which they will, because it's funny as all hell GLing a comp fade or lerk, and so ridiculously easy to do.
LMG which sacrifices power for range, which is low risk, mild reward.
or
Shotgun which uses 20 PRES to sacrifice range for power, which is high risk, high reward
or
Grenade Launcher which uses 20 PRES to sacrifice utility for power, which is also high risk, high reward
or
Flamethrower which uses 25 PRES to sacrifice power for utility, mild risk, mild reward (Doesn't really make sense to me, IMO)
a proposed GL attachment keeps range, sacrifices resources for mild additional power, low risk, mild reward, be it 10-20 PRES?
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This would open up a versatile play style being somewhere between the survivability of a LMG (because you can position yourself better and take advantage of range) and the some power from the GL for a more affordable cost.
It should have a magazine of 1 shot per reload, thus (unless used in large groups) won't be too spammy, behaves much like the GL attachments you see in many modern shooters.
This would allow players to use their existing LMG skills to defend themselves, but also be able to do some tactical moderate damage to take down a gorge wall / tunnel / Ninja kill a RT if left unchecked, again it will not shoot as fast as the existing GL.
Aside:
I personally find it silly to have to spill so many clips of LMG ammo to kill a Harvester rapidly enough, especially when supported by extra cysts, crags, gorge tunnels, in which case I am totally screwed to defend against a responding alien. Unless I keep ammo in reserve (use axe which is pretty slow) / get more support from commander. An alien rarely has to worry about running out of energy when munching on a RT and waiting for marine response. again marines don't get this upgrade for free, so there's that payoff.
I'm sure many of you have been in the situation where you get the easy ambush on a gorge, but if you even miss a few bullets while he jumps around or weaves through the (somewhat stupid) hit boxes of structures/walls/whips/hydras he can get away while healing and/or possibility kill you instead.
Having that "opener" burst damage mid-game could be the versatility build I've always been looking for.
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Additional Brainstorm Ideas:
- Perhaps also make it shoot the type of hand grenade you have to allow further and faster impact delivery method?
- Perhaps make it not a PRES purchase, but perhaps a TRES permanent upgrade much like the NS1 hand grenades?
- Combination of the above?
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TL;DR:
I'm sure some will disagree with this, but I simply want to see some new gameplay. The shotgun is great and all but really it's counter intuitive to the while "marines use range, aliens use melee" thing. While I don't think there is a problem with the GL, but to hopefully satisfy that demand, this could result in possibility less GL spam if done right and I feel that with all the things a Marine can equip, they don't feel all that versatile currently.
1) Less Grenades
- Since it only shoots once before reload, there was a lot less of a "spammy" feeling to the grenades.
2) Less Shotguns
- The GL attachment made eliminated the shotgun as the ultimate weapon for all scenarios, meaning overall less Shotguns (less instant death skulks/lerks longer duels with fades)
While it was very powerful to have an LMG and a GL, overall I think it played better as far as variety went. And since it only would fire one grenade, its damage wouldn't really be much of an issue anymore as there would be much less grenades on the field.
Having the attachment fire the hand grenades sounds interesting, but I think they should be kept separate. Extra range on Nerve Gas or Cluster nades could become OP.
Sorry, I don't mean the following analysis of your story to sound patronizing @KungFuJV
Yes it is balanced, because you should have known that GL shot was in your return path, of course if you didn't notice or pay attention to the missed GL, you simply activated that GL'ers trap card, and you lost. Even if you lost your Fade, it's a casualty of war, keep fighting, the game doesn't stop because you lost your favourite life form.
You could always contribute greatly as a skulk, and if your team's success was hanging by a thread that is your Fade, then there is clearly balance issues in that game, and you could have made actions to mitigate risk, by grouping with skulks and pack playing.
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Take this scenario, let's leave the marines and GL's out of this for a moment. The Crusher in Mineshaft, you want to go through the crusher's vent. You didn't witness the last time it slammed down. Do you go in and risk getting squashed because you wanted to get somewhere a bit faster? or do you wait for it to slam down to confirm safety to travel. You know it will crush in fixed intervals, it's only a few seconds, common sense man.
In your story/scenario @KungFuJV, there are a few extra though processes you could have done that would have left you on top, where's what I would have done.
A) I fly in, GLer takes his missed shot as you stated. I would have added a mental note of the missed GL, identified which player is the GL player, done a passing swipe (still traveling, not stopping to get shot by the GL) at the LMG marine (GL marine takes his second shot which should miss as I'm still moving), then I get out a different route that I know they will not be watching and that does not put me into the harm of other marines. Using this information I return later from a different path after the heat has gone down, theres the possibility I'll get pinched later as I want to fight battles I can win alone, otherwise I bring friends.
I think this would be interesting, too.
Shooting hand grenades is not a good idea, though, I think. You can already throw them pretty far, and from a purely technical perspective, i don't know how they would fit into a grenade launcher (animation wise). Simply going with the normal grenade launcher ammo seems better to me.
Having it as a permanent TRES upgrade would reintroduce the problem of "everyone gets a free grenade"-spam. Having it as a comparably cheap personal upgrade next to shotgun, GL etc. fits better, I think.
I like hand grenades instead of normal ones for more variety, theres already a gl that shoots plain he, cluster and gas grenades allow for more tactical options.
Also the point of the underbarrel launcher isn't to make it more accurate or go further, its to allow you to fire and start shooting your lmg right away, not see a skulk, take out nerve gas, throw nerve gas, take out rifle, start shooting, that takes to long I feel in a fast passed game, and I dont feel they can be used well in the middle of combat.
@It's Super Effective! yeah. I have thought it out thoroughly on what I couldve done differently. I don't want to get into it and derail the thread further..but some of the things you said were true and some doesn't apply to that specific situation.
However I just want to make clear that in my mind, after he missed the first shot it didn't seem.....reasonable.... that AFTER he direct hit me with the GL, the first grenade would still be undetonated and bouncing around..keep in mind this all happened in < 3 seconds
The other alternative would simply to remove the grenade from detonating on impact on players (mild nerf). However getting killed from the splash? Too bad IMO, it's a Grenade Launcher, that's what it does by definition.
i never said this!
Yes, GL spam is a low-skill mechanic, and it can be frustrating to lose a lifeform is such a manner, but the thing is, 9 times out of 10, you're still gonna do better off facing a GL marine than a shotgun marine in an engagement. You just happend to be unlucky. So, anectodal evidence of how you once lost your fade to GL doesn't mean much.
In any case, if people really want to tone down the playerdamage from GLs, consider making it a secondary weapon as a replacement for the pistol, and tweak some of the numbers to not make it OP.
On that note. The overall point that I was trying to make (unsuccessfully) was that if something isnt going to be done about toning down player damage, that something should be tweaked about how the grenades work when bouncing around.
What basically happens when I see most glers getting engaged by a lifeform is that they shoot all over the place with the GL. lets say they all miss...at the current iteration literally any hallway instantly becomes a death trap because 4 explosions are about to go off consecutively and unless you have eagle vision you have no idea where the grenades are. You can imagine what it's like when 2-4 players are doing this the moment a fade flys into the room.
Now this is the problem I was trying to convey earlier because literally every entrance/exit out of tech points are tight hallways.
Tldr: IMO if people are adamant on keeping player damage the way it is(I'm not) than they should at the very LEAST add something like highlighted grenades.
As far as complaining about GL spam, what about adding some other weapons marines can spend their pres on? Flamer is suicide without a jp it does crap damage and takes like 20 seconds of aiming at a SKULK to kill and if you miss once it just runs off... Shotty you gotta be in your face which with anything other than a skulk or gorge results in death 50% of the time. GL is actually the only long range weapon besides pistol LMG. How about a mini railgun or sniper? Something actually long range.