Fix the bad marine health and ammo system

alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
edited September 2014 in Ideas and Suggestions
You played NS1 and NS2 for years with a bad marine health and ammo system. You could have switched to NS combat or quit playing, but lucky you didn't. UW had the right idea, but never implimented it in the best way.

What's wrong with the health and ammo system:
- It encourages marine humping the armory constantly. Not just for health, but for ammo too. You took 5 damage or shot 10 bullets oh well better go back to the armory.
-The armory is not a healing station. You get ammo, weapons, and stuff from it.
-There is no medic class or healing items. Either the com heals you, you respawn, or you hump the armory.
-The com wastes time microing med and ammo drops. For a 10 player marine team that is alot wasted time microing.
-Anyone with a costly weapon will only push the aliens a short time. As soon as he takes a little damage or he's low on ammo he goes back to the armory.
-Call of Duty, BF4, Halo, and other modern FPS games have done the health system in a good way for years. NS2 needs to catch up.
-The armory is used as a damage spunge by placing it near alien hot spots. The marines take damage and then moves back to hump the armory. This should not be a common tactic, but is often used.
-Marines with less skill are afraid to push without an armory nearby. Armory healing encourages marine turtling which is a bad strategy.
-Nano shield, stim packs, scan sweeps, and weapon drops already allow coms to directly buff marines. Health and ammo drops are not necessary.
-Phasegates and beacon already allow the marine to fast travel back to the armory at base. Most coms use alot of res by dropping multiple armories, because of the marine healing.

How to fix the health and ammo system:
-The armory does not heal. It still supplies ammo, because there is no ammo station or ammo marine class.
-Doubling ammo clips makes going back to the armory not very often required. Marine ammo clips are doubled from 4 to 8. If your low on ammo switch to pistol with 8 clips.
-Ammo armory resupply is instant like other modern fps. Armory humping is almost reduced to 0.
-The com cannot drop meds or ammo anymore. It was interesting, but coms could troll the med drops. Med and ammo drops are also OP with JP and GL marines. It makes being a com easier and less stress full, so more players can com.
-The marine has 100 health that regens 10 every second. You want an explanation how? Nano bots. It's still not the same as the alien regen, so both sides are still different.
-Alien damage needs to be increased to compensate. Skulk bite 90 dmg. Parisite 20 dmg. Lerk bite 70 poision 15 dmg sec. Hydra 30 dmg.

The updated system allows and encourages marines to push longer and take more risks. It benefits both comp and pub players. It allows new players to enjoy the game more with a simpler health regen system.

Please test this system on a balance server. I'm sure it's better than the old system.

*Cliff notes: Old health and ammo system bad. Needs to be updated. Don't be afraid of change, it'll be better.


fixed that all-caps title -Kouji_San

Comments

  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    alster wrote: »
    Call of Duty, BF4, Halo, and other modern FPS games have done the health system in a good way for years. NS2 needs to catch up.

    Houston, we have a troll.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    Marines never had health regen. People love NS combat for the auto self meds that was like having health regen.

    Armories also once repaired armor, but that was changed for the better.

    If NS 2 wants to get new players it needs to get with the times.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    How about you fix that all-caps title first?
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
  • HobocopHobocop Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2014
    So...you want to rebalance the entire game? Again? And significantly dumb down any kind of attrition-based strategy?

    Please, no.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    coolitic wrote: »
    How about you fix that all-caps title first?

    \:D/
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    alster wrote: »
    The updated system allows and encourages marines to push longer and take more risks. It benefits both comp and pub players. It allows new players to enjoy the game more with a simpler health regen system.
    fixed that all-caps title -Kouji_San

    Marines do NOT need an incentive to push longer or harder - because pushing as far as you can in a game of ns2 rewards itself.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    alster wrote: »
    Marines never had health regen. People love NS combat for the auto self meds that was like having health regen.

    Armories also once repaired armor, but that was changed for the better.

    If NS 2 wants to get new players it needs to get with the times.

    Perhaps I was not clear enough that ns1 started without any armory heals.
    So I desided to help with explaining this even more.

    Look healing is in the official ns1 3.0 version:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/78472/armory-healing
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/56375/3-0c-changelog/p1 (see O Armory now occasionally gives health back when used)

    Voogru ran a mod when it did not heal yet:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/18470/healing-armories
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/717412#Comment_717412


  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members

    Perhaps I was not clear enough that ns1 started without any armory heals.
    So I desided to help with explaining this even more.

    Look healing is in the official ns1 3.0 version:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/78472/armory-healing
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/56375/3-0c-changelog/p1 (see O Armory now occasionally gives health back when used)

    Voogru ran a mod when it did not heal yet:
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/18470/healing-armories
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/717412#Comment_717412

    You're absolutely right.
    People wanted health regen so UW fixed it with the armory.
    It's still not good enough. UW should have fixed it by having health regen without needing an armory or med drops.
    CDT please give the people what they really want.
  • HobocopHobocop Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2014
    I don't believe you're qualified to make that assessment, especially considering that the healing armory mod was run for years in the vanilla game mode in NS1 before it was officially implemented into the base game.

    There has been no such mod for regular marine health regen for the base game in NS2, or if it exists, it certainly isn't very popular because I've yet to see it in any of the servers I've played on.

    Combat Mod isn't even relevant to the discussion, since it is a completely different gametype with completely different balance. Resupply is meant to emulate the commander dropping you stuff in an environment where the commander doesn't exist, not serve as a flimsy justification for rebalancing the standard game mode.
  • ZeroEarThZeroEarTh Singapore Join Date: 2014-07-01 Member: 197126Members
    Marine can buy Med Kit at Amory to bring as Item , press 5 to use restore 100 HP

    New Female Medic Marine , Shoot at teamate to heal ( Killing Floor)

    :))
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    ..or he can kill himself, respawn, be at full health and pick his stuff up
    no guys, this is going nowhere.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited September 2014
    Let's think of the actual reprocussions of auto-heal.

    Scenario: Marine gets bit a lot but then kills bitey things, he can now hide and cry for a few seconds to restore his HP to 100 - however he still has no armor, so he will die in 2 bites (rather than the 1 bite it would have taken).

    Question: Does this make medding redundant? Because I'm sure we all know that without medding, commanding is not a full-time job. I'll come back to this observation in a second though.

    The answer is partially.
    This makes commander medding redundant outside of combat (medspam) situations.

    Gameplay-wise, we have to think about whether or not auto-healing would
    a) save a lone marine that was dead anyway
    b) increase survivability in combat

    As for b) I'm sure you guys all realise that it's not going to require that marines need an extra hit or anything in combat, so long as auto-heal is given a significant time-till-activation-out-of-combat.

    Most alien hit-run-hit-run etc... volleys give the marines a break of a few seconds, tops. Not long enough for a marine to start auto-healing.

    In the case of a), auto-healing would have the effect of making that lone marine that stumbled through hydras and hellfire to get to your natural RT a 2-bite kill rather than a... 2 bite kill at the expense of a commander medpack.

    So basically it will give marines one bites-worth of additional survivability without the comm's aid, in common but admittedly niche gameplay scenarios.

    Remember that thing I said I'd come back to? Back up there ^^^^

    Marine commanding is a full time job. Like, alien comm can kinda breeze through games without too much to worry about, but marine comm is a delightful (not delightful) bombardment of marines spamming you for medpacks and ammo in any and all situations, while having to manage upgrades etc.

    Statement: Most beginner comms, and many, many experienced comms find this frequently overwhelming.

    Statement: Auto-heal would take some of the workload off of the marine commander.

    It would also free the comm of a few Tres per game. I dont think it'd be a hugely significant amount but would of course need to be looked at regarding balance.


    My point is this:
    Although I agree that from my personal perspective, I dont give a tiny rat's tiniest ass about getting auto-healed or not, balance issues aside (balance issues that would surely be minor with thoughtful implementation, though i'm sure there's something I've not thought of here, someone please point it out :D ) marine auto-heal could have positive effects-
    - Little tiny portions of commander time freed up
    - A familiar mechanic that rookies can cling to in a harsh, unforgiving new game. Like Mr Blanket.

    Like, I really don't think it'd be that bad, providing marine res income was balanced accordingly, and the time before auto-heal considers you out of combat was significantly large.
    edit
    At least, it wouldnt be that bad in pubs. I'd even go so far as to say it'd probably be a good mod to have on rookie-friendly pub servers.

    However I just realised that much of the aforementioned overwhelmingness of marine commanding comes from the fact that people start comming on 10v10 servers where there are many more players to manage. 6v6 it's obviously not going to be a problem.

    tl;dr - someone make a mod for this for large public servers. It'd be great.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    @meatmachine‌ let's play through a scenario here based on your post:

    Marine Yolo takes 2 bites and kills the skulk(s). He makes a quick run to another position and hunkers down to avoid the aliens knowing where he is (maybe he can catch another one later unawares). He wasn't medded immediately by the comm.

    He now doesn't want to give his position away, so tells the comm not to med him yet (noisy meds), but to wait for him to initiate the engagement.

    Does your auto-out-of-combat-med idea make a normal med noise? If so, that marine would be mighty annoyed if it went off at the worst possible time and gave him away while he's being sneaky trying to trap a fleeing lifeform...
    If not, well that'd be OP, right?
    alster wrote: »

    CDT please give the people what they really want.

    18 disagrees, 0 agrees.

    Thanks, CDT, that was fast! :)
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    Have you ever been on a server where no one want's to com? I've seen servers empty without a com. If anything can make being a com easier like no med or ammo drops to worry about then it should be put in.

    Like I said many times, there are way more people expecting health regen in a modern fps than those that do not. We need these players for the future of NS 2.

    The only people against this seems to be the old NS 1 and NS 2 players who think the only big changes should be new maps, weapons, or front end. You guys are the reason NS2 is dying and you don't even know it.

    Yolo would not be OP, because he has no amor left. He would be a happy player with full health, lot's of ammo left, and not needing a com to help him out. Just like how alot of other players would feel like if they had health regen.


  • HobocopHobocop Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2014
    The problem with taking out medpacks entirely is that you also remove any potential playmaking ability or ability to swing engagements in their favor from marine commanders in the early game which is arguably when it matters most, not to mention when lerks and fades come out.

    That's not a good thing, and no amount of magically regenerating health for supposed player convenience will solve that. It would mean rebalancing the game entirely. Again. The game really doesn't need that right now.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited October 2014
    @Roobubba‌ I probably must have not made the point of my post clear- that is, that the kneejerk 'disagree's with the idea are probably emotionally fueled by dissent for modern fps style mechanics without thinking whether or not it could honestly be implemented in an effective way.

    You imagined a scenario where it would change the gameplay slightly- and I bet if you tried you could think of a way to modify the mechanic so that this wouldn't be an issue. Even without mentioning what noises would/wouldnt be made when a marine auto-heals there are behavioural adjustments you could make that would negate the situation also.

    It's an easy idea to make straw men out of.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    guys, wether you think the op is right or not, giving 16 disagrees is really not necessary. it was a constructive suggestion to improve things, no need to pile up this devastating negative feedback.
    that said, i'm not giving my agree for that reason and neither because i think the suggestion is better than the old one. it is because i think the idea is worth trying out at least (shouldn't be hard to implement). i also don't like various things about modern shooters but that doesn't mean every single gameplay element they come up with is necessarily bad.
    personally, i never liked medpacks appearing out of thin air in abundance (or not at all). yes that has some strategic element to it (spend the res or not), but it's bit odd for people on the field and artificially increases the gap between the vets (who usually get more meds as soon as the com notices they will contribute significantly if kept alive) compared to rookies.
    question is wether people would actually accept such a change or not. judging from this thread, probably not. and yes, it can easily screw up balance for a while.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Laosh'Ra wrote: »
    guys, wether you think the op is right or not, giving 16 disagrees is really not necessary. it was a constructive suggestion to improve things, no need to pile up this devastating negative feedback.
    that said, i'm not giving my agree for that reason and neither because i think the suggestion is better than the old one. it is because i think the idea is worth trying out at least (shouldn't be hard to implement). i also don't like various things about modern shooters but that doesn't mean every single gameplay element they come up with is necessarily bad.
    personally, i never liked medpacks appearing out of thin air in abundance (or not at all). yes that has some strategic element to it (spend the res or not), but it's bit odd for people on the field and artificially increases the gap between the vets (who usually get more meds as soon as the com notices they will contribute significantly if kept alive) compared to rookies.
    question is wether people would actually accept such a change or not. judging from this thread, probably not. and yes, it can easily screw up balance for a while.

    I disagreed because I read the post, considered what was being said, and didn't agree. That is probably true of most people who disagreed with it.

    If I posted a topic here saying "Ammo is bad, UWE are idiots because there should be no limitation on ammo", I should, and no doubt would, get a couple of metric tonnes of disagrees. The system is working entirely as intended, there.

    In addition, when posting such ideas, it's probably wise to do so in a tone that isn't simultaneously so aggressive and bewilderingly belligerent...

    Giving the commander no meds or ammo means he does what, exactly? Waits for resources to drop buildings and start research? That sounds really tedious, good luck getting a comm if all they have to do is that!
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited October 2014
    Giving the commander no meds or ammo means he does what, exactly? Waits for resources to drop buildings and start research? That sounds really tedious, good luck getting a comm if all they have to do is that!
    are you serious? the majority of people i know that don't want to go marine com state thats because it's a very stressful open-end job (as in, you could always do better no matter how good you are).
    several people i know (including myself) prefer alien com as they struggle with medpack accuracy (i don't mind using enzyme etc., timing can be learned). the open-end-ness comes through the social leadership task though. delegating and motivating people definately is more fun for me as a com compared to medpack skillshots and i'd appreciate having more focus on that as it's one of the aspects making ns2 rather unique in it's design.
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